No more choosing the Light or Dark Side in-game

[Emperor Devon]

Hmm...That does make sense to an extent. The problem is that in KotOR, using the Darkside alone is not enough to change your alignment. Or else, there would be a lot of Jedi Masters corrupted because of the number of times they used Force Storm.

 

Notice how you don't see any Jedi Masters use force storm. To use a power like that would go against several of the Jedi's major beliefs.

 

I imagine a Jedi Master could be corrupted by storm, but it would take a VERY long time.

 

Using the Dark Side of the force naturally corrupts people. Look at Exar Kun. He was a slightly more brutal (but not evil) Jedi. He goes to Korriban, gets trapped under a bunch of rocks, and under Freedon Nadd's influence, uses the Dark Side to force his way out and keep himself alive. Such a heavy usage of the Dark Side corrupted him.

 

Once you've committed mass genocide, killed puppies, drank blood from a fountain and corrupted little children, you end up having done everything.

 

There is a difference between the deeds you do and how you do them.

 

That is VERY relevent. The simple fact that two Jedi could escape a purge means that even back during the time of KotOR, one could've escaped.

Remember Jolee? He was lost on Kashyyyk until Revan found him.

It doesn't even have to be an important and very powerful Master, a Knight ca be enough to train you.

 

Those were VERY different circumstances. The Sith were much stronger in TSL than they were in RotS, and the ability to escape them was almost impossible. Not many Jedi would choose to go worlds dead to or completely alive with the force, and as such, the Sith were able to hunt them down with extreme ease.

It doesn't matter how remote Jolee was, he would have been found out eventually. The Sith were targeting their enemies through the Force.

 

it would be possible for you to just be a little kid when K1 started and the Jedi were busy and didn't notice you, a teenager during K2 which would mean that nobody could train you and finally an adult in K3, when you stumble upon and old hermit.

 

If the person was a little kid in KOTOR, he wouldn't be a teenager by the time of TSL.

 

Besides, wouldn't a few Sith Assassins have gone to take care of the kid?

[stingerhs]

There is a difference between the deeds you do and how you do them.

not really. if Taris was destroyed by a Death Star instead of a bunch of ships firing a barrage of blaster fire, would that make Malak eviler??

Those were VERY different circumstances. The Sith were much stronger in TSL than they were in RotS, and the ability to escape them was almost impossible. Not many Jedi would choose to go worlds dead to or completely alive with the force, and as such, the Sith were able to hunt them down with extreme ease.

It doesn't matter how remote Jolee was, he would have been found out eventually. The Sith were targeting their enemies through the Force.

okay, then you just completely ignored the fact that Darth Vader was the most powerful Dark Jedi in existance. also, just because the circumstances were different doesn't make it irrelevant. the Sith were hunting down the Jedi in both instances. and it is quite logical that there are survivors to any catastrophe.

 

did the Jews escape the Holocaust while living in Germany?? obviously not all of them, but that didn't mean that a number of them didn't escape.

If the person was a little kid in KOTOR, he wouldn't be a teenager by the time of TSL.

 

Besides, wouldn't a few Sith Assassins have gone to take care of the kid?

well, not everyone can detect a child. although Vader was the most powerful Sith of all time, not even he could detect that Luke or Leia was his own children until they had gained power.

 

and yes, a 10 year old kid could be a 15 year old teenager during the timespan between K1 and K2.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Notice how you don't see any Jedi Masters use force storm. To use a power like that would go against several of the Jedi's major beliefs.

 

I imagine a Jedi Master could be corrupted by storm, but it would take a VERY long time.

 

Using the Dark Side of the force naturally corrupts people. Look at Exar Kun. He was a slightly more brutal (but not evil) Jedi. He goes to Korriban, gets trapped under a bunch of rocks, and under Freedon Nadd's influence, uses the Dark Side to force his way out and keep himself alive. Such a heavy usage of the Dark Side corrupted him.

 

You totally missed the point. I don't doubt that using the Dark Side would corrupt someone but it doesn't work that way in KotOR. You'd have to force the gameplay mechanics so that Dark Siders only use Dark Side powers while Lightsiders only use Light side powers. However, modifying a pretty much hardcoded thing into the concept of KotOR wouldn't be smart now.

 

stingerhs answered the rest.

[Emperor Devon]

not really. if Taris was destroyed by a Death Star instead of a bunch of ships firing a barrage of blaster fire, would that make Malak eviler??okay, then you just completely ignored the fact that Darth Vader was the most powerful Dark Jedi in existance. also, just because the circumstances were different doesn't make it irrelevant. the Sith were hunting down the Jedi in both instances. and it is quite logical that there are survivors to any catastrophe.

 

You misunderstand me. Say someone kills a puppie. The person would be eviler if they enjoyed it, rather than if they were bullied into it.

 

Darth Vader is a Sith, not a Dark Jedi. Please make sure your facts are accurate before arguing over them.

 

The Sith were also hunting down the Jedi in different ways. In RotS, there are a couple thousand Jedi, and two Sith. In TSL (When the Sith begin hunting down the Jedi) There are a hundred Jedi, and thousands of Sith Assassins who target their enemies through the force. The Sith Lords in the events of TSL were far stronger than the ones in RotS. Those are different circumstances, which will have different results.

 

did the Jews escape the Holocaust while living in Germany?? obviously not all of them, but that didn't mean that a number of them didn't escape.well, not everyone can detect a child. although Vader was the most powerful Sith of all time, not even he could detect that Luke or Leia was his own children until they had gained power.

 

That is because he didn't know they existed. When he last saw Padme, she had given birth to his children, and Palpatine told Vader he had killed her. And when he met Leia on board the Tantive IV, he had no way of knowing she was his duaghter. Her last name was Organa, not Skywalker, and he had no other way of recognizing her.

 

and yes, a 10 year old kid could be a 15 year old teenager during the timespan between K1 and K2.

 

We must have different definitions little kids, then. In my opinion, a little kid would be five.

 

You totally missed the point. I don't doubt that using the Dark Side would corrupt someone but it doesn't work that way in KotOR. You'd have to force the gameplay mechanics so that Dark Siders only use Dark Side powers while Lightsiders only use Light side powers. However, modifying a pretty much hardcoded thing into the concept of KotOR wouldn't be smart now.

 

Being a video game, Lucasarts could not make everything realistic. Instead, they just made force powers of the opposite alignment cost more.

[stingerhs]

Darth Vader is a Sith, not a Dark Jedi. Please make sure your facts are accurate before arguing over them.

my facts are quite clear. no matter how you look at it, Darth Vader is the most powerful of any Dark Jedi or Sith that has ever existed. and perhaps unknown to you, the term 'Sith' is often synonimous with 'Dark Jedi'.

That is because he didn't know they existed. When he last saw Padme, she had given birth to his children, and Palpatine told Vader he had killed her. And when he met Leia on board the Tantive IV, he had no way of knowing she was his duaghter. Her last name was Organa, not Skywalker, and he had no other way of recognizing her.

once again, you are missing the point. the Assassins didn't detect the Exile because s/he could not feel the Force. the same can be said about children to a certain extent: unless they recieve training, a child couldn't have enough power to make an impact in the Force enough to attract the attention of the Sith Assassins. note that a disturbance in the Force wasn't felt by either Palpatine or Vader concerning Luke until he had met up with Yoda on Dagobah.

We must have different definitions little kids, then. In my opinion, a little kid would be five.

then you are quite ignorant. the general concensus refers to young humans as "children" before they reach adolescence, which is around 11-13 years old depending on differing biological factors. that means from the age of 8 in K1, that child would be a teenager in K2.

Being a video game, Lucasarts could not make everything realistic. Instead, they just made force powers of the opposite alignment cost more.

which is logical considering this is a story-based RPG, and not an action oriented game. having your alignment modified in the middle of combat, based solely on the alignment base of a Force Power you use, doesn't fit in the genre of story-based RPG's.

[Jeff]

The Sith were also hunting down the Jedi in different ways. In RotS, there are a couple thousand Jedi, and two Sith. In TSL (When the Sith begin hunting down the Jedi) There are a hundred Jedi, and thousands of Sith Assassins who target their enemies through the force. The Sith Lords in the events of TSL were far stronger than the ones in RotS. Those are different circumstances, which will have different results.

But in RotS, the Sith had all the clones (which numbered more than the number of Sith Assassins in kotor) to kill all the Jedi, plus the Jedi weren't expecting the clones to attack them. So the ways that the Jedi were attacked were not so different.

[Emperor Devon]

my facts are quite clear. no matter how you look at it, Darth Vader is the most powerful of any Dark Jedi or Sith that has ever existed. and perhaps unknown to you, the term 'Sith' is often synonimous with 'Dark Jedi' .

 

Darth Vader doesn't have the power to kill a whole planet with nothing but the force, does he?

Sith and Dark Jedi are seperate. A Sith is a person who is a member of the Sith, and has been trained by a Sith Master, and has achieved a rank within them. A Dark Jedi a force-sensitive individual who uses the Dark Side, but is not a memeber of the Sith (Empire).

 

once again, you are missing the point. the Assassins didn't detect the Exile because s/he could not feel the Force. the same can be said about children to a certain extent: unless they recieve training, a child couldn't have enough power to make an impact in the Force enough to attract the attention of the Sith Assassins .

 

Get your facts straight. When a person sensitive to the Force is born, their strength in the Force does not increase by natural means. Instead, they learn how to effectively channel and wield their power.

 

note that a disturbance in the Force wasn't felt by either Palpatine or Vader concerning Luke until he had met up with Yoda on Dagobah.

 

That was because when Luke met up with Yoda, he learned how to effectively wield his power. Before that, he had power, but could wield it.

 

then you are quite ignorant. the general concensus refers to young humans as "children" before they reach adolescence, which is around 11-13 years old depending on differing biological factors.

 

I only said little kid, not child. My definition of a little kid is someone five and under. A kid is six to adolescence.

 

having your alignment modified in the middle of combat, based solely on the alignment base of a Force Power you use, doesn't fit in the genre of story-based RPG's.

 

Which is exactly why Bioware did not include that realistic factor.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Get your facts straight. When a person sensitive to the Force is born, their strength in the Force does not increase by natural means. Instead, they learn how to effectively channel and wield their power.

 

In TSL, there is no mention of Sith assassins targeting Force Sensitive children. Only Jedi, but even so, if the Sith believe the Jedi extinct, why would they bother killing Force sensitive children if nobody is there to train them?

 

 

That was because when Luke met up with Yoda, he learned how to effectively wield his power. Before that, he had power, but could wield it.

 

So that counters stingerhs' argument how?

The fact remains that nothing was felt until Vader came very close to Luke (the Death Star trench run in ANH).

 

 

 

I only said little kid, not child. My definition of a little kid is someone five and under. A kid is six to adolescence.

 

You can't live by just following your own personnal conventions.

 

 

 

Which is exactly why Bioware did not include that realistic factor.

 

And the reason they should include it is?

[SITHSLAYER133]

ok heres wat i think

1 jedi could use dark powers but it would be harder for them to use because they dont no how to draw energy for that type of attack in this characters case

yaddle - same races as master ypda

Morichro, a method for killing a being without using the Dark Side of the Force

 

2 if u no how 2 use it then it would become easier to use think of it like a skill such as typing the more u use the better you become so there isnt really light or darkness

[THE MANDALORE]

Darth Vader doesn't have the power to kill a whole planet with nothing but the force, does he?

Sith and Dark Jedi are seperate. A Sith is a person who is a member of the Sith, and has been trained by a Sith Master, and has achieved a rank within them. A Dark Jedi a force-sensitive individual who uses the Dark Side, but is not a memeber of the Sith (Empire).

 

Umm... Nihilus didn't have that sort of power either. According to Kreia, it was just gut instinct that happened thorough a person's feelings and therefore Nihilus didn't have any way to control it.

Besides, who wants to kill a planet with the force when you have the Death Star? That's like buying an electric pencil sharpener and still sharpening pencils manually (srry. couldn't think of a better analogy).

 

Although I agree with your points on the difference between Sith and Dark Jedi, I am confused as to why Malak sent Dark Jedi after us in KOTOR instead of full-fledged Sith Masters. Anyone have any theories?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Although I agree with your points on the difference between Sith and Dark Jedi, I am confused as to why Malak sent Dark Jedi after us in KOTOR instead of full-fledged Sith Masters. Anyone have any theories?

 

Dark Jedi mercs I guess. Or maybe followers who haven't trained under the Sith yet.

[Emperor Devon]

In TSL, there is no mention of Sith assassins targeting Force Sensitive children. Only Jedi, but even so, if the Sith believe the Jedi extinct, why would they bother killing Force sensitive children if nobody is there to train them?

 

SOmehow, they might become Jedi. They could stumble across some old holocrons.

 

And the reason they should include it is?

 

I've already said that's realisitc. Put two and two together.

[RedHawke]

Darth Vader doesn't have the power to kill a whole planet with nothing but the force, does he?

Not that any of his D6 or D20 stat sheets ever showed.

 

[Fond Memories] Yes, the D6 RPG power Create Force Storms I remember it well... it comes from the Dark Empire sourcebook. And you can indeed consume whole planets!

 

Get your facts straight. When a person sensitive to the Force is born, their strength in the Force does not increase by natural means. Instead, they learn how to effectively channel and wield their power.

Actually if we are talking pure game mechanics here, a person is not usually born Force Sensitive in the eyes of an RPG system...

 

WEG D6 RPG you have to spend 40 Character Points to become Force Sensitive or take a Character Template that starts that way... then you can spend CP to purchase the Force Skills of Control, Sense, or Alter plus the obligatory CP's per Force Power learned, if you have a "Master/Holocron" or at Double the CP cost if you are learning by yourself. Or lastly you play the printed adventure "Battle for the Golden Sun."

 

D20 RPG you have to aquire the Force Sensitive Feat, either through the GM or when you gain a feat through levelling, or start as a Jedi class.

 

Both these systems allow for learning the ways of the Force without a Master/Teacher...

 

Just FYI!

[lukeiamyourdad]

SOmehow, they might become Jedi. They could stumble across some old holocrons.

 

Or they could train them to be Sith. That's not the point. There's no indication whatsoever of the Sith Assassins targetting Force Sensitive children.

 

 

 

I've already said that's realisitc. Put two and two together.

 

You've also agreed that changing alignment in the middle of combat based solely on the kind of Force powers you use didn't fit the story-based RPG genre.

 

stingerhs said this:

having your alignment modified in the middle of combat, based solely on the alignment base of a Force Power you use, doesn't fit in the genre of story-based RPG's.

 

to which you replied:

Which is exactly why Bioware did not include that realistic factor.

 

It obviously means that you agreed that it didn't fit into a story-based RPG.

Or perhaps you want JK of the Old Republic...

[Aristotélēsticus]

I think that Devon spook some truth, because lucasfilm has stated that the true chronicle end for both games is the lightside one, and as the third game might be the end of the story, there must be something certain.

 

Well, we all like to choose, and the both games gave us this pleasure but at this game you might choose from the beginning, like choosing Revan/Exile alignment, gender and other things…and about changing your alignment during the game, I believe that this well make the story a little bit silly, you know what I mean; light then dark then light...etc, changing their alignment will make the characters look as a shaky personalities, like they don’t know what they want to do, and this is not how the leaders are (as they are both leaders).

 

After all I believe that I am now starting to fall from the light side as I sensed some wrongs in the Jedi philosophy, and for this I think that me and Devon agreeing on the not-choosing matter because we deals with absolutes.

[Bastila]

Wow i missed a big conversation lol, all i want to say is isn't the KOTOR games based on your choiced so LS/DS should be there change your path at any time or just be LS or DS fully.

[Aristotélēsticus]

if there will be a new PC then it will be with choices, but being Revan or The Exile then choos again, it will be silly as i said before, anyway there must be an absolute end for Revan and the Exile's journey.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I think that Devon spook some truth, because lucasfilm has stated that the true chronicle end for both games is the lightside one, and as the third game might be the end of the story, there must be something certain.

 

No, there doesn't. Remember's TSL questions?

 

Well, we all like to choose, and the both games gave us this pleasure but at this game you might choose from the beginning, like choosing Revan/Exile alignment, gender and other things…and about changing your alignment during the game, I believe that this well make the story a little bit silly, you know what I mean; light then dark then light...etc, changing their alignment will make the characters look as a shaky personalities, like they don’t know what they want to do, and this is not how the leaders are (as they are both leaders).

 

Which is why it's bad idea to play with Revan or the Exile.

 

I still don't understand why people have such a small imagination. Doesn't anyone here think that their stories can be resolved without playing as the both of them? In TSL, we got the continuation of Revan's story without the character ever appearing.

 

KotOR got praises from everyone, pretty much everyone who played the game, for being able to change your alignment through your actions and some of you even consider scrap one of the fundamentals, one of the things that make KotOR what it is?

[Aristotélēsticus]

I said that if it's about a new pc then you must have a lot of choices, and that’s why I am with the idea of a new pc.

 

About the questions, yes you have choose your own story through them, such as Revan's gender and alignment, but now you will encountered them so if you have two possibilities for both (gender and alignment) then there will be 8 ones and if you add your choices which are four: so just try to imagine how much possibilities you will have in the storyline, off course we did not feel this in TSL because answering the question only effect the dialogue, but now it will effect the whole storyline, because if the characters did not appear as it was in TSL, then it will be -in my opinion- a big disappointment, I mean imagine some one tells you in the game that Revan was killed by the true sith, or returned to the republic and you didn’t encountered him, and that the same thing happened to the exile…we accepted this in TSL because we knew (or at least hopped) that there will be another episode, I don’t know what the people will think if it happened like this, but I will be disappointed.

[Emperor Devon]

[Fond Memories] Yes, the D6 RPG power Create Force Storms I remember it well... it comes from the Dark Empire sourcebook. And you can indeed consume whole planets!

 

Fond memories indeed... And also the undoing of the first Eclipse.

 

That was one thing Bioware got wrong... They called a buffed-up version of lightning "storm".

 

Or they could train them to be Sith. That's not the point. There's no indication whatsoever of the Sith Assassins targetting Force Sensitive children.

 

There was no indication of the True SIth or the Exile in KOTOR I. Who's to say they can't bring that point up in KOTOR III? Anyhow, it would be illogical for them not to eliminate all potential threats.

 

It obviously means that you agreed that it didn't fit into a story-based RPG.

Or perhaps you want JK of the Old Republic...

 

You are now resorting to feeble accusations to make your arguments look superior. I have already stated my opinion about a JK of the Old Republic. If you would like to know it, use the search function. In KOTOR I, a Light Sider using death field (or some other Dark Side power) would not make much of a difference. It would take years for someone to be corrupted by that - and KOTOR does not last years.

 

I still don't understand why people have such a small imagination. Doesn't anyone here think that their stories can be resolved without playing as the both of them?

 

They could be, but it would not feel as fulfilling.

 

In TSL, we got the continuation of Revan's story without the character ever appearing.

 

But not the resolution. THose are completely different things.

 

KotOR got praises from everyone, pretty much everyone who played the game, for being able to change your alignment through your actions and some of you even consider scrap one of the fundamentals, one of the things that make KotOR what it is?

 

There is a difference. In KOTOR I, Revan starts out without his memories, so he is free to determine his alignment without flip-flopping. Revan can change his alignment in the game whenever he wants, up until the temple summit. Would it make much sense if Revan goes from Light Side to Dark Side to Light Side? No. That's not "redemption". That's flip-flopping.

 

I am with the idea of a new pc.

 

*raises eyebrows*

[Jeff]

Would it make much sense if Revan goes from Light Side to Dark Side to Light Side? No. That's not "redemption". That's flip-flopping.

Anakin/Vader did that...

[Emperor Devon]

Over a period of decades, not several years.

[lukeiamyourdad]

There was no indication of the True SIth or the Exile in KOTOR I. Who's to say they can't bring that point up in KOTOR III? Anyhow, it would be illogical for them not to eliminate all potential threats.

 

Why? They'd be hunting shadows. They are not potential threats if nobody can train them. Falling on a holocron is not nearly as good as falling on a teacher.

If that was so, why wasn't the Empire after Luke before his encounter with the droids?

And no True Sith or Exile in K1 is a poor example. During the time of K1, it was uncertain if the game would do well enough to make a sequel or not. Thus starting to talk about characters in a potentiel sequel would only seem weird if there is no sequel.

Besides, the True Sith and the Exile had nothing to do with the events of K1. Only when Revan started having flashbacks of the True Sith did it become relevent.

Anyway, the explanations were clear. The Sith targeted the Jedi, not the potentiel Jedi. I think that killing Force sensitive children is a serious enough information to be mentionned somewhere in the game.

 

You are now resorting to feeble accusations to make your arguments look superior. I have already stated my opinion about a JK of the Old Republic. If you would like to know it, use the search function. In KOTOR I, a Light Sider using death field (or some other Dark Side power) would not make much of a difference. It would take years for someone to be corrupted by that - and KOTOR does not last years.

 

I did not accuse you of anything. I did say "perhaps". If I said that you indeed wanted a JK of the Old Republic, I would have said so.

Second of all, you missed the entire point or went over it in haste. You agree obviously that using the Dark Side force powers does not corrupt enough (or at all). You also agreed that changing alignment during combat just because of the Force power you're using is not fitting with the story-based RPG genre.

 

Yet, your whole argument rested upon that single fact, that using rage and passion (therefore Dark Side powers) would make the character eviler. Of course, it doesn't work that way in KotOR because it's a story-based RPG. I will remind you again that you agreed that it didn't fit in.

 

You've pretty much destroyed your own argument.

 

 

They could be, but it would not feel as fulfilling.

 

People said the same thing about the Exile, saying that it wouldn't be as fulfilling to play as him instead of Revan. Nonetheless, as I already said, there's another thread for this.

 

 

But not the resolution. THose are completely different things.

 

Not at all.

They could be present in some form or another. Playing as them or having them as NPCs is a completely different matter. Besides, discussion for another thread.

 

 

 

There is a difference. In KOTOR I, Revan starts out without his memories, so he is free to determine his alignment without flip-flopping. Revan can change his alignment in the game whenever he wants, up until the temple summit. Would it make much sense if Revan goes from Light Side to Dark Side to Light Side? No. That's not "redemption". That's flip-flopping.

 

Call it whatever you want, look at Anakin. Light Side-Dark Side-Light Side. Also, note that there's not enough DS or LS points in the game to make you really a flip-flopper. Besides, who gets to the Light, falls to the Dark and comes back to the Light and then falls back to the Dark again all in one game?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Over a period of decades, not several years.

 

20 years. We don't even know how long K3 is going to be set after K2.

[SITHSLAYER133]

devon im seroius ur idea sounds o ...... k...... becuase i allways decide before i play wat alignment im gona be but half the fun is watching the character go either way