Yoda's ability to handle force lightning attacks

[Char Ell]

I searched this forum but didn't find any previous posts about this topic so...

 

Does anyone know the specific force power Yoda used when Darth Sidious attacked him with force lightning? I know there is a force absorb power in games like Jedi Knight but is this the specific power that Yoda uses? In the movies, Yoda seems to be the only Jedi who can handle force lightning attacks with his bare hands. The other Jedi (Obi-wan and Mace) rely on their lightsabers.

[Sivy]

i think it is force absorb. why mace and obi-wan didn't use it, who knows? maybe it's a difficult thing to master, or maybe mace and obi just prefer using their lightsabers.

[Pho3nix]

I think it hurts if you use your hands, So that's probably why they prefer lightsabers. =/

[Leviathan]

Anyway, I think Force Lightning "hurts" you whether you use Force Absorb or your light-saber... In both cases, employing one of these means must be tiring...

[Kurgan]

Hmm, it didn't seem to bother Obi-Wan when he blocked it with his saber. He did it one handed with no major signs of exertion, seemed like a simple enough trick.

 

If Lightning is a "Sith Power" how did the Jedi know how to counter it? I guess they were just quick on their feet.

[Char Ell]

Anyway, I think Force Lightning "hurts" you whether you use Force Absorb or your light-saber... In both cases, employing one of these means must be tiring...

That is really what I was wondering about. In AotC, Yoda seems to deflect Dooku's force lightning attack at first, using his hands, and then switches to absorbing during Dooku's final attack. To me it appeared like he was using the attack's energy to supercharge his batteries. Dooku finally figures out his lightning isn't working and then Yoda goes all whirling dervish on Dooku. But in RotS, Yoda doesn't seem to handle Sidious' force lightning attack as well as Dooku's. Maybe it's just because Sidious is so much more powerful than Dooku was but it did seem like Yoda didn't have much in the tank after the force explosion between him and Sidious.

[Leviathan]

A rumour specifies that Yoda was affected by the death of some many Jedi, following Order 66's broadcast. Consequently, he wasn't as effective against Sidious as in previous fights...

[Char Ell]

Hey, how about that! A specific rumor

 

I can understand Yoda's being affected by the deaths of so many of his fellow Jedi. But weren't a lot of Jedi killed at the Battle of Geonosis? Why wasn't Yoda affected in the same manner then?

[Leviathan]

I think you guessed all Jedi weren't killed on Geonosis... And you also must know that Yoda feels when a Jedi dies...

[Kurgan]

I don't think there really was a precedent for Yoda's powers as seen in AOTC.

 

He does three things in that scene:

 

1) "absorbs" Dooku's lightning.

 

2) Throws lightning of his own.

 

3) "absorbs" the lightning again.

 

Notice the first instance many people interpreted it as he "caught" the thrown lightning and threw it back at Dooku, but notice what Dooku does.. he "blocks" it and sends it into the ceiling where it turns into flame! In the last instance he "absorbs" the energy and it doesn't go anywhere! As to the Force charging up his batteries, who knows, but I think that's forcing game mechanics on a movie made independantly.

 

At one point in the battle it also appears as if both Dooku and Yoda are firing bolts back and forth at each other (or the bolts are collecting in the center and glancing off each other).

 

This behavior doesn't jibe with anything in Jedi Outcast or Academy. It might be in some RPG someplace, but I figure they've modified it for game balance/challenge and it may not bear any relation to what we actually see onscreen. And why the different behavior with Palpatine/Yoda in the next movie? Who knows! Lucas has a habit of inventing new Jedi powers for each movie, as the plot or action dictates, so there you go. That some of the Prequel powers first appeared in games is fine, but that doesn't prove we can look to the games to explain how they all work.

[Char Ell]

Yes, I agree that Yoda's displayed force abilities in AotC were unprecedented for the movies. And for the record I didn't intend to say that Yoda was using the same force absorb as found in JA or JO. It was just that how Yoda handled Dooku's force lightning attack seemed to be most like the Force Absorb power in those games. I guess this is just one of those things in the Star Wars movies that you have to figure out what it means on your own, or possibly look to the novelization of the movie to get more details than what the movie itself provides. But even with the novelizations you're only getting the author's spin on events as opposed to getting the info from the story's actual creator. Oh well, I thought it was a thought provoking question in any case

[Kurgan]

Well sure, I guess if you had to pick a force power (or set of powers) that Yoda is using based on the games, then he's using Aborb, and then Lightning.

 

Dook is using Lightning, Push, and then some kind of blocking ability that doesn't exist in the games. And of course they both use Jump.

 

Dooku later uses grip in ROTS and maybe pull (to pull the stuff on top of Obi-Wan?). Though the ability to make stuff break and then fly towards your opponent is most akin to Force Throw in Jedi Knight (the first game; not to be confused with Saber Throw from JK2/JA).

[Blaze629]

2) Throws lightning of his own.

 

Although it would appear this way, Yoda does NOT throw lightning of his own making. He reverses the attack from Dooku which Dooku is forced to block. The attack then hits the ceiling and could have resulted in more injury to Anakin and Obi-Wan if debris had fallen on them. Yoda knows this and from that point on absorbs the attack but does not reverse it back on The Count. Please remember:

 

"A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. NEVER for attack." Master Yoda(Episode V)

[Kurgan]

How do you KNOW though?

 

I always interpreted Yoda's ESB quote as his philosophy having changed after the fact (or possibly, that he was blatantly lying to Luke to achieve a certain result, as Obi-Wan did). Yoda also tells Luke that "wars make not one great." And yet this is the same Yoda who 24 odd years ago was an active participant in war. He was a general! And if you go by the Clone Wars series, he also fought on foot in the battles themselves on at least one occasion. Is he being hypocritical, or did the decades of hiding in exile on Dagobah give him a chance to reflect on and repent of his mistakes made during the prequel era?

 

The Jedi certainly DO use the force for attack in the prequels, and also in the Original Trilogy. And the ones that do are not limited to ones "skirting the Dark Side" like Anakin or Luke. Reference Force Pushes used on battle droids, Yoda force pushing Palpatine, etc.

 

Watch the scene with Yoda again carefully. There are shots were it certainly appears that he's throwing lightning of his own, not just in the famous "tossing it into the ceiling so it turns into fire" part.

 

Ways to interpret the contradictions without assuming that Yoda changed his philosophy or is lying to Luke could include:

 

1) Well the Jedi hold this ideal, but in practice it's pretty much never enforced. Ie: sort of like the US policy of not killing civilians in war. Or any religion that teaches its followers to avoid sinning.

 

2) Jedi are allowed to use the Force for attack, after your opponent throws the first punch (the most explicit example of this comes from the Jedi Knight game actually, but it seems somewhat logical with regards to Yoda's actions... as long as you attack second, you maintain the moral high ground, because it's "defense" even if it's still an attack. Of course this sounds like it's splitting hairs, but there you go. Yoda has had hundreds of years to cement his own understanding of the Force. Perhaps in his mind attacking second isn't really attacking, so it lets one off the hook.

 

Besides.. how is it more proper to use the Force to indirectly kill your opponent by guiding your saber to its target or blocking blaster bolts into his face, than to use a force choke, push, lightning, etc?

 

3) Yoda is just an imperfect guy. He tried not to attack, but his fury got the better of him. Think about it for a moment. Your former padawan, whom you trained, has now betrayed you, by turning to the Dark Side, and joining the Seperatists (betraying the Jedi's mandate to protect the Republic). He's overseen the massacre of Jedi Knights before your eyes. Not only that but he's shown extreme arrogance and disrespect to you by saying he's become more powerful, by using teachings the Jedi consider to be blasphemous (the Dark Side, though I'm not sure that Yoda realizes at this point that Dooku is a Sith) AND tried to kill him. So thus far he's given Yoda every reason to hate him, I can't blame the little guy if he got carried away. It may also be that the Lightning attack was so powerful, he feared he might be killed unless he responded in kind. The Jedi ideals may take a backseat to personal survival instinct.

 

Still, the teaching is what Jedi are supposed to do (see #1) even if sometimes they fail. This is a common religious parallel too. Just because people fail to live up to the higher teachings doesn't mean the teachings are false.

 

But still I say if you say that using the force to attack is impossible for a Jedi, then the Prequel films are one big staggering contradiction to that. It's not just the Yoda/Dooku battle, but virtually every scene with a Jedi in combat.

[El Sitherino]

Incapacitating an attacker is not attacking, it is defense.

[Kurgan]

Fair enough, we've got examples of Jedi attacking people before they were attacked by them.

 

Or is "a percieved threat" enough? Sort of how modern police start shooting the instant they see a suspect with something that resembles a gun, because that's how they're trained?

 

Look, I'm not saying the Jedi aren't allowed to fight or kill, or that as police they aren't allowed to shoot first and ask questions later using their better judgement, etc. Rather I'm arguing about the reality of the pacifist ideals that Yoda spouts to Luke in ESB being read back into the Prequels. Prequel haters label these contradictions and proof that Lucas has forgotten what Star Wars is about, but I see it as quite a simple explanation.

 

Most likely there is a disconnect between Jedi idealism and actual practice. Notice how Mace Windu says "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" in AOTC. Qui Gon says in TPM "We can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you."

 

These statements seem to portray the Jedi as police or diplomats, not warriors. Combine these with Yoda's statements "Wars not make one great!" "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" and "You will know, when you are calm.. at peace... passive"

 

Yet we see clearly in the prequels that they are fierce warriors, and participate (however unwillingly) in military action. We even have evidence of Jedi enjoying what they do (note Jedi like Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto smiling after they've pulled off some awesome move or about to kick somebody's a$$). Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but it goes to show that this rhetoric the Jedi spout does not jibe 100% with their actions.

 

That's okay. Honestly I think it makes them more "human" and more fallible to show that they, like may people throughout history, in fiction and in our modern reality, have on the one hand, what they believe to be better, truer, higher, and the ideal, and on the other hand what they actually do, for being expediency, monetary weakness, and not quite the heroes they dream of being. Makes for more interesting characters than if they were just two dimensional icons of perfection who lose only because the plot calls for it.

 

While we root for the Jedi, we can see how their downfall was played out. They had weaknesses, including apparently, a desire for combat ("damned fool idealistic crusade" anyone?) in a "just cause" and believing themselves to be the righteous defenders of liberty, despite corruption in their own ranks (Count Dooku, whom they couldn't believe would ever murder anyone; Anakin, despite not trusting him at various times they trained him as a Jedi and gave him a lot of freedom, which ended up putting him close to the Chanceller, they also let a hothead like Obi-Wan train him, the Padawan of the maverik Qui Gon Jinn, who also trained the traitor Dooku, incidentally!), etc.

 

It makes a lot of sense to divide the Force and all actions up into "dark" or "light" based on game balance, but I think in the movies its not that cut and dried. I think Lucas did this on purpose to show that the Jedi are not perfect or all knowing. They do what they think must be doing, by any means necessary. They believe they're right, but they are ultimately short-sighted. Their willingness to fight is actually what gets them all killed. That the movie portrays Yoda in a position of command rather than leading from the field is what gives him the edge to survive. If not for that, he would have been killed like the others. Obi-Wan simply got lucky (and in his elder years he says he doesn't believe in luck!)

[Ryozan]

....

While we root for the Jedi, we can see how their downfall was played out. They had weaknesses, including apparently, a desire for combat ("damned fool idealistic crusade" anyone?) in a "just cause" and believing themselves to be the righteous defenders of liberty, despite corruption in their own ranks (Count Dooku, whom they couldn't believe would ever murder anyone; Anakin, despite not trusting him at various times they trained him as a Jedi and gave him a lot of freedom, which ended up putting him close to the Chanceller, they also let a hothead like Obi-Wan train him, the Padawan of the maverik Qui Gon Jinn, who also trained the traitor Dooku, incidentally!), etc.

....

Actually Dooku trained Qui-Gon not other way around

[Char Ell]

^^^

And you had to quote Kurgan's entire post to make that point? Would it not have been simpler and easier for those that read this thread to only quote the relevant part of Kurgan's post (the part you highlighted) and then made your statement about who trained who after that?

[Kurgan]

Actually Dooku trained Qui-Gon not other way around

 

 

Whoops, my bad! I should have read over my post after writing!

 

And not to worry, I edited your post so quoted only the relevant part.

[Blaze629]

Incapacitating an attacker is not attacking, it is defense.

 

Correct. A malicious attempt to MAIM or cause PHYSICAL HARM to another is considered an attack in this case. Yoda and the jedi use force push to stun or knock down their opponent. Not to maim or to cause actual death. Stopping your opponent from attacking you by using force push is NOT a malicious attack Kurgan. It is a self defense technique. Ask Lucas himself and I GUARANTEE you he would corroborate this. As for how do I know this Kurgan? I have books from many years ago before Lucas even started the prequels that asked if jedi were going to use dark powers in the prequel episodes. Lucas stated at that time that "jedi do not use the dark side for ANY reason." If Lucas says it, because he created this world, I accept it and do not question it.

[Char Ell]

^^^

Umm, yeah. I'm sure Kurgan being who he is and all has George Lucas' personal phone number. He'll call George up and say somthing like, "Hey Georgy, what's up? Hey my man, I was wondering about the whole force push thing. Enquiring minds want to know, is a force push a malicious attack or a self-defense technique?"

 

IMHO, it all depends on how the force push is used. If one used force push to send one's opponent over the edge of a tall cliff, e.g. Darth Maul force pushing Obi-Wan into that exhaust tube in TPM, then I would consider that a malicious use of force power. But if one is in a situation where one would be killed unless killing one's opponent, then of course I would consider that self-defense, e.g. when Obi-Wan used force jump to escape the tube and force pull to get Qui Gonn's lightsaber and quickly eliminate Darth Maul.

[Blaze629]

Force push on its own doesn't kill or injure Hai-Wan. Lightning on its' own injures at the very least. That is quite a difference.

[Kurgan]

Correct. A malicious attempt to MAIM or cause PHYSICAL HARM to another is considered an attack in this case. Yoda and the jedi use force push to stun or knock down their opponent. Not to maim or to cause actual death. Stopping your opponent from attacking you by using force push is NOT a malicious attack Kurgan. It is a self defense technique. Ask Lucas himself and I GUARANTEE you he would corroborate this. As for how do I know this Kurgan? I have books from many years ago before Lucas even started the prequels that asked if jedi were going to use dark powers in the prequel episodes. Lucas stated at that time that "jedi do not use the dark side for ANY reason." If Lucas says it, because he created this world, I accept it and do not question it.

 

Blaze, I'd like to point out that killing your opponent is also self defense. The Jedi have no "Code Vs. Killing" (to put it in comic book terms) even if they claim to favor violence as a last resort.

 

Insightful commentary from stardestroyer.net's canon database(the part in quotation marks is G-level canon, referring to Luke's actions on Tatooine)

Source: ROTJ novelization p.46

 

"It was a Jedi rule-of-thumb, but it took the soldiers in the second skiff by surprise: when outnumbered, attack. This drives the force of the enemy in toward himself."

 

The Force: Jedi knights are trained to be highly aggressive, despite Yoda's implication to the contrary. This is consistent with TPM, where Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon responded to the Viceroy's attempt upon their lives by immediately charging directly toward his control room in an attempt to kill him.

 

As for Lucas's comments on the Force from interviews from the past, that's all well and good, but how do you square that with what he has shown us ON SCREEN? According to him, this represents his "definitive vision" not some interview he gave in the past, insightful as it may have been otherwise.

 

And what is "maliciousness" anyway? Are all soldiers "malicious" towards their enemies? I think most of them are just trying to accomplish their mission while staying alive. They need not personally hate or seek to humiliate each and every opponent they come across. You're reading malicious intent into a certain Force Power. The notion that certain powers are automatically evil is primarily from the games, not the movies (though there is some support for it in the novels, I will admit, they're still trumped by the movies). Assuming that is an exact quote from Lucas, notice how he says "the dark side" not "won't be aggressive" or "won't use the Force for attack" etc. There's a huge difference! And when I'm watching the movies, there's no subtitle that pops up everytime somebody uses "the dark side" so there is certainly room to question. Has Lucas listed all the Jedi powers, telling us which ones are good and which ones are evil? Apparently only the games tell us this, and even then they're not always consistent (Mysteries of the Sith for example, has no Light or Dark Side, you can freely mix and match powers; Jedi Outcast splits it into light/dark in multiplayer except in regards to certain game modes like Holocron and Jedi Master, but mixes them in single player with no consequences; Jedi Academy has Kyle spewing the idea that each power is based on intent and no penalty is incurred for mixing supposedly "dark" and "light" powers together, only in multiplayer are you restricted to one side or the other).

 

And if Yoda can use lightning without malice, then it just goes to show that the power is not inherently evil. Otherwise it shows Yoda skirting the dark side (something, that in the EU novels btw, is apparently super common, but nevermind!).

 

Using Lucas as an appeal to authority is valid yes, but you have to show where he agrees with your interpretation, not simply say "well if I could talk to Lucas he'd agree with me!" The Flanneled One has not returned my calls, so I can only guess what he thinks of your ideas.

[Kurgan]

Force push on its own doesn't kill or injure Hai-Wan. Lightning on its' own injures at the very least. That is quite a difference.

 

Say's you! Look at what Force Push does to Battle Droids (reference TPM). They not only fall over, they often break apart, and they don't get back up! Surely Battle Droids (made of metal) are not more fragile than soft flesh and blood...

 

Consider Yoda pushing Palpatine over his chair. Just because it didn't kill him doesn't mean it didn't hurt! Reference Dooku tossing Obi-Wan's body into a wall. Reference him tossing Anakin into a wall, etc. Even after Dooku cuts off Anakin's arm, his Push apparently leaves the youth unconscious. Now perhaps he simply passed out from the pain of the wound (despite other characters remaining conscious, despite pain, after lightsaber amputations), but nevermind.

 

Force push definatly hurts. That it doesn't hurt the hardy Jedi as much as it hurts a non-Jedi is besides the point. The same is true of Lightning or any other Force attack.

 

I can see it now, people are going to argue that since a "dark force user" uses the powers, they're not good examples. Likewise they'll say if Anakin, Luke or Mace Windu did something aggressive, it was because they were "skirting the dark side" (the idea of Windu skirting the dark side comes from the EU... apparently his lightsaber style "skirts the dark side" in fact!).

 

Cop-out?! I mean, is there any supposedly "pure" Jedi in the movies that you can point to who fights without engaging in aggressive action? The only Jedi I can think of who don't fight are the little kids, or the Librarian, etc. Everybody else who goes into battle commits aggression or is about to before they are struck down by somebody else first. So either the Jedi are all hypocrites, and there is no "pristine Jedi example" or perhaps this popular interpretation of Jedi is inaccurate, via the movies.

 

I will ask you though, is it only aggressive "use of the Force" that you're concerned about, or all aggression in general? Because if it's the latter it becomes even more problematic. Look at how the Jedi seek out battles, brandish their weapons in a threatening manner, take the first swing, etc.

 

Do the Jedi follow Just War Doctrine? How do we judge "maliciousness" with regards to combat? I could easily argue that Darth Maul, despite seeking confrontation with the Jedi, nevertheless was pursued and outnumbered, he had little choice but to fight once the sabers came on. Dooku as well wanted to leave, but the Jedi chased him and cornered him, again outnumbering him. What were his options, other than surrender or be killed?

 

Vader was in a position of power over Luke, but remember that Luke attacked his (unarmed) master, and then tried to harm him (Vader). Vader was seemingly overmatched most of the fight as well. Was he supposed to run for the elevator? Beg Palpatine for help against Luke?

 

Does a Jedi even have time to analyze the bigger picture while in a death struggle? That's why I question this "well his intention was ___." He may not have that luxury fighting for his life. When fighting inferiors (like Stormtroopers, Geonosians, Battle droids) the Jedi seem to have no qualms about using their abilities for mass slaughter.

 

Still, that's part of the philosophy of being a soldier. When you've got the opportunity, in a time of war, and you kill a bunch of enemy soldiers, that's regarded by most as "bravery" and "courage" etc. We're not talking about wandering around and randomly torturing civilians or executing unarmed prisoners here, just their conduct on the battlefield.

[Prime]

The Force: Jedi knights are trained to be highly aggressive, despite Yoda's implication to the contrary. This is consistent with TPM, where Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon responded to the Viceroy's attempt upon their lives by immediately charging directly toward his control room in an attempt to kill him.

Was their intent to kill the Viceroy, or mearly capture him?

 

 

And what is "maliciousness" anyway? Are all soldiers "malicious" towards their enemies? I think most of them are just trying to accomplish their mission while staying alive. They need not personally hate or seek to humiliate each and every opponent they come across. You're reading malicious intent into a certain Force Power. The notion that certain powers are automatically evil is primarily from the games, not the movies (though there is some support for it in the novels, I will admit, they're still trumped by the movies).

Well, several recent sources regarding the films have indicated that Force Lightning is actually the exclusive domain of the Sith, and is in fact called Sith Lightning.

 

Assuming that is an exact quote from Lucas, notice how he says "the dark side" not "won't be aggressive" or "won't use the Force for attack" etc.

I think the whole "knowledge and defense and never to attack" line is taken too literally. I think what is being imparted on Luke is a philosphy that helps prevent a fall to the dark side. The use of the Force should not be used to attack/invade/destroy others in the general sense. All the instances of Force push and the like that I can think of were used when the Jedi was coming under attack from something. Since they are protecting themselves this would fall under using the the Force for defense.

 

There's a huge difference! And when I'm watching the movies, there's no subtitle that pops up everytime somebody uses "the dark side" so there is certainly room to question. Has Lucas listed all the Jedi powers, telling us which ones are good and which ones are evil?

I believe Force Lightning has been listed as a corruption of the Force and listed as a exclusive Sith/Dark Side power, in terms of the films anyway. The NJO of course allows everyone to use it in the name of justice and peace!

 

Apparently only the games tell us this, and even then they're not always consistent (Mysteries of the Sith for example, has no Light or Dark Side, you can freely mix and match powers; Jedi Outcast splits it into light/dark in multiplayer except in regards to certain game modes like Holocron and Jedi Master, but mixes them in single player with no consequences; Jedi Academy has Kyle spewing the idea that each power is based on intent and no penalty is incurred for mixing supposedly "dark" and "light" powers together, only in multiplayer are you restricted to one side or the other).

Of course, there are some sacrifices for gameplay, which needs to be kept in mind when including them in the analysis.

 

And if Yoda can use lightning without malice, then it just goes to show that the power is not inherently evil.

But it appears that Yoda doesn't use (i.e. create) Force Lightning at any point, he mearly deflects it. Both the Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith scripts state that Yoda deflected lightning used by the Sith:

 

AOTC:

YODA deflects Force lightning thrown at him by the enraged COUNT DOOKU.

 

ROTS:

The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

 

Otherwise it shows Yoda skirting the dark side (something, that in the EU novels btw, is apparently super common, but nevermind!).

Entirely too common, IMO.