Fire, slash... slash, fire!

[Vladimir-Vlada]

Well maybe they can do the same thing with animation skeletons with KOTOR 3 as well. I don't mind seeing everyone have same animations for everything. The blaster-and-melee weapon wielding can be PC and Party only animation.

[JediMaster12]

Maybe so but this was a suggestion after all

[Mono_Giganto]

Well maybe they can do the same thing with animation skeletons with KOTOR 3 as well. I don't mind seeing everyone have same animations for everything. The blaster-and-melee weapon wielding can be PC and Party only animation.

 

Yeah, if it was done, it definitely would be. There's still the matter of making the animations though, a lot of time which could be better spent giving us a solid, relatively bugless story.

[RedHawke]

There's still the matter of making the animations though, a lot of time which could be better spent giving us a solid, relatively bugless story.

Quoted for emphasis!

[The_Maker]

No.

 

It just doesn't make sense,

If you are a Jedi, why would you WANT a blaster to begin with?

And if you are (presumabley a skilled) Jedi most blaster shots the enemy throws your way are going to be deflected, and who says an NPC wouldn't use this feature? They use everything else you can. Think about it, my PC with a short saber in my left hand hand, and a super what-ever you want to call it mega Mandalorian blaster pistol in my right, I am against another Jedi/Sith with the same ability, I attack him first with my blaster and he deflects every single shot, he does the same and I deflect every shot, now we are at a stalemate. Stalemates in videogamecombat are BAD. Now if either of us switches to just one type of weapon, blaster or saber, we'll lose because our opponent will shoot us while we run up to him/her to fight with a saber, or we get stabbed in the gut because our blaster cannot get through his armor/saber deflects.

If we we resort to force powers who ever has a higher Wisdom setting will win hands down because his/her opponent will not be able to fight with a weapon without being gunned down or stabbed. So essentially its like a slanted version of Rock-Paper-Scissors, Force Powers Are better than the combo, The combo is better than a single type of weapon, and a single type of weapon gives you nothing but death.

 

Now if you threw grenades and/or mines into the mix that is a different story, whoever threw a freeze-grenade or something of the like would have the upper hand, which is mainly why I hate grenades because they don't make sense in an RPG game. But honestly, who uses grenades when your opponet is weilding a saber?! Bleh.

 

So in the end you force players to be either extremely powerful, have a ton of grenades, or only use the same spam-tactic through the whole game. Spamming a game with the same moves, same powers, same weapons over and over again gets real old real fast.

[Sabretooth]

The idea sounds like something from your usual hollywood movies, where the brawny action hero jumps into a corridor horizontally, firing with two machineguns. Then, stylishly, he takes out a sword and a gun and hacks away at the guys around him, while accurately hitting those far away.

 

My vote: no.

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Depending on the level of deflection rolls the jedi/sith carry and the level of 'precise shot' I have, not all my shots are deflected.

With the right damage and critical hit upgrades, sabarists many times fall before me.

 

Actually, sometimes I can kill jedi fairly easy with blasters.

Maybe that's the problem with this thread. Jedi and sith alike don't like blasters.

(barbaric weapon)

 

Force users and traditionalists don't usually favor deadly pistoliers.

(especially if they brandish one of their own 'civilized' weapons.)

[Prime]

I don't mind if it is in there, but there should be huge penalties.

[Vladimir-Vlada]

I don't mind if it is in there, but there should be huge penalties.

Now that's what I am talking about.

[RobQel-Droma]

But if you are going to have stuff like "Attack Ranged", and then "Attack Melee" in the action queue, why not just switch weapons? It would come out the same, it would take a round for each attack. But the idea is kind of intriguing, if they did it right, it could be kind of nice. But I agree, massive penalties, maybe only being able to use with shortsabers if you haven't mastered it. I think it could work really good, although it might not be that great for an RPG than it would be for a FPS.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The most unbalanced aspect of both games is being able to stand completely still and spam Force Waves destroying every enemy on screen long before running out of VP or FP. So a ranged/melee combo is not a balance issue. Really.

 

Not a balance issue how? You've just mentionned something that needs balancing and then claim that there's no balance issue?

There is, more then you seem to think. The theoretical counterweight to using force powers are force points. You risk running out of FP. However, when using a saber and a blaster, you don't run out of ammo.

 

Now if they wanted to insert that. Would they do such a thing?

 

If they want to balance things out, yes.

 

 

I never got beaten by a double-bladed wielder. And if I never got beaten, Why would anyone else be? Maybe you just didn't improve your character as good as you thought.

 

I'm just making up a potential situation. Of course, both KotOR games without hardcore mods are outrageously easy. I'm just saying that if you faced someone of equal level with roughly the same stats, using a single saber, in the actual context, against a double-bladed saber would lead to your loss.

That doesn't mean that. You just have to think what abilities are you going to use.

 

 

Now you are over exagerating.

 

A.I.'s are not that smart and no NPC would wield such a thing, because NPC's are mostly unoriginal minds that doesn't really think or aim correctly.

 

That's because the game is too easy. Doesn't have anything to do with them using both a blaster and a saber at the same time. Besides, what stops an NPC from doing that?

 

HEY! You said that. Not us.

 

Oh, you did. I might have confused people by saying "at the same time", but I'll explain it later.

 

 

No, because he doesn't have the correct polarity of a electron field projecting shield, nor does he have a Xenon stick that is ionicly positive, while the projectiles are also positive; making them deflect because of the positive ions from both sides.

 

Now this doesn't have anything to do with anything.

 

Who says that Star Wars is real?

 

Who says it must not be? There's realism in real life and realism and Star Wars. Shooting and using a saber at the same time doesn't fit either.

 

Frankly, someone said something about already being able to use both melee and ranged weapon by switching in the middle of a battle.

Now that makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is someone who would stand there and shoot while deflecting when they can deflect and then rush up to the enemy and do some slice and dice.

It makes even for a stupider scene, as someone mentionned earlier, where two saber and pistol wielding enemies would fight. They'd stand there and shoot and deflect. It would look absolutely horrendous.

 

Now that's what I am talking about.

 

This goes back to another one of my points. If there's too big a penalty, why use it?

[Robb Stark]

Frankly, someone said something about already being able to use both melee and ranged weapon by switching in the middle of a battle. Now that makes sense.

 

The advantage of dual-wielding a melee and ranged together would be from the defensive point of view. You could defend against a melee attack (or a blaster shot if you are wielding a lightsaber) while launching a ranged attack of your own. YOU ALREADY DO THIS WITH FORCE POWERS AND A SABER!!!! My goodness. It's not about mechanics or balance. It doesn't unbalance anything *MORE* than it's already unbalanced, which was my point about spamming Force Waves, and it doesn't add a dimension of the game that doesn't already exist, albeit in a slightly different form (Force powers instead of blaster fire). The only issues as I see it is whether it's realistic to fight that way, and whether it would be used often enough to justify spending time on it to put it in the game.

 

What doesn't make sense is someone who would stand there and shoot while deflecting when they can deflect and then rush up to the enemy and do some slice and dice.

 

Really? Do you realize what you are implying: Why EVER use a ranged attack? Why let anyone in your party stand there and ABSORB (forget even deflecting) blaster fire when they can rush up to an enemy and slice and dice?

 

It makes even for a stupider scene, as someone mentionned earlier, where two saber and pistol wielding enemies would fight. They'd stand there and shoot and deflect. It would look absolutely horrendous.

 

I'm not sure exactly how it would look, and neither do you. Will it look much dumber than two ranged opponents facing off with defense ratings of +40 never suffering damage and firing at each other for two hours and healing critical hit damage until one runs out of medpacs?

 

I personally find the strategy of two saber-ranged opponents facing each other intriguing. I think the decision about when to commit to a melee attack in this case would be an interesting one. It enables a stastically weaker melee opponent to try out more options to deal with a stronger one: for example it may force a strong melee opponent to use a saber that focuses on BBD rather than maximum damage. It also multiplies the number of build choices because you now can determine whether you want to max/min for melee, ranged, force powers, or some combo of them. More choices = better as long as they're reasonable (certainly the number of feat and Foce power choices in TSL indicates that world-class game developers believe this to be true). If a melee-ranged combo is too unreasonable as a way for real people and/or Jedi to fight, then forget it. If it's conceivable, then I'm for it.

 

This goes back to another one of my points. If there's too big a penalty, why use it?

 

You're the one talking about "too big a penalty." What does that mean? I'm sure that playtesters can figure out what the IDEAL penalty would be to make such a strategy useful with a good setup and bad with a poor setup, and balancing the penalty with the other combat options to make them reasonably equal if min/maxed properly. Playtesting is how every respectable RPG has determined what the penalties should be for various strategies. They don't randomly decide numbers, they try out various numbers to determine what they think is FAIR. Why is this one aspect the only one in any RPG system that would be randomly chosen to have "too big a penalty?"

 

Look, we get it. You don't like the idea. At this point just say "I think just think it's stupid" and be done with it.

[RobQel-Droma]

It makes even for a stupider scene, as someone mentionned earlier, where two saber and pistol wielding enemies would fight. They'd stand there and shoot and deflect. It would look absolutely horrendous.

 

Liayd is right about that, you know, it would make a pretty stupid scene. That would be a definite problem if this happened. And as I said before, why not just attack with say a force Push, and then pull out a blaster, shoot a few times, and then run up and attack with your saber.

 

I'm not sure exactly how it would look, and neither do you. Will it look much dumber than two ranged opponents facing off with defense ratings of +40 never suffering damage and firing at each other for two hours and healing critical hit damage until one runs out of medpacs?

 

Sorry, but quite frankly, I have a pretty good idea of what it would look like . It would be worse than the scenario you just mentioned, which is a bit exaggerated by the way. And what would happen if a blaster shot just kept going back and forth from each person, each in turn blocking it and adding even more rogue blaster shots to the mix?

 

You're the one talking about "too big a penalty." What does that mean? I'm sure that playtesters can figure out what the IDEAL penalty would be to make such a strategy useful with a good setup and bad with a poor setup, and balancing the penalty with the other combat options to make them reasonably equal if min/maxed properly. Playtesting is how every respectable RPG has determined what the penalties should be for various strategies. They don't randomly decide numbers, they try out various numbers to determine what they think is FAIR.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you just said they should just make it "fair" and make it so it would have hardly any drawbacks at all. Come on, there is a fine line between "reasonable" (for the game) and "unrealistic," and what you said seems to be crossing it. For someone use what we are talking about would make them either the most terrible fighter alive, or, it would make them a dangerous killer, yet would still have several weak points.

 

When I think of ranged weapons along with melee like you are saying, I think of some guy fighting with a saber, warding off an enemies blow, then pulling out a blaster and gunning down an enemy running toward him; then, using his saber on the first guy. That would be really what I would like. But then again, you can almost already do this with the secondary weapon option, so why include it?

 

Now the kind of combo I would really want, more than having the blaster/saber combination, is still having only melee weapons at a time, but having your fists or feet. Being able to attack with a saber while simultaneously hitting the enemy and causing a small, yet regular amount of damage. That would be nice.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The advantage of dual-wielding a melee and ranged together would be from the defensive point of view. You could defend against a melee attack (or a blaster shot if you are wielding a lightsaber) while launching a ranged attack of your own. YOU ALREADY DO THIS WITH FORCE POWERS AND A SABER!!!! My goodness. It's not about mechanics or balance. It doesn't unbalance anything *MORE* than it's already unbalanced, which was my point about spamming Force Waves, and it doesn't add a dimension of the game that doesn't already exist, albeit in a slightly different form (Force powers instead of blaster fire). The only issues as I see it is whether it's realistic to fight that way, and whether it would be used often enough to justify spending time on it to put it in the game.

 

If we rebalance force powers (including force wave) then yes, that tactic would unbalance things.

You missed the point. When using force powers, you use up force points. In theory, when you use up all of your force points, you have to close in and engage in melee combat.

That is not the case with a blaster, as you will never run out of ammo.

 

You're confusing the ranged skills with the spellcasting skills.

 

Really? Do you realize what you are implying: Why EVER use a ranged attack? Why let anyone in your party stand there and ABSORB (forget even deflecting) blaster fire when they can rush up to an enemy and slice and dice?

 

Thus, why non Jedi do exist. HK-47 or Mandalore with a rifle can't use any of those tactics. As far as I know, they can't deflect blaster fire like a Jedi can.

 

This comes with the principe of the tanker and the shooter. Tankers come in a take hits while shooters deal damage from afar.

 

I'm not sure exactly how it would look, and neither do you. Will it look much dumber than two ranged opponents facing off with defense ratings of +40 never suffering damage and firing at each other for two hours and healing critical hit damage until one runs out of medpacs?

 

Yes, it would look dumber, since both have melee weapons in their hands. Two persons with rifles have no choice but to avoid melee. People who have the option and are able to deflect blaster bolts using said melee weapon would have it in their best interest to deflect then rush forward.

 

Personally, I think I know exactly how it will look.

 

 

I personally find the strategy of two saber-ranged opponents facing each other intriguing. I think the decision about when to commit to a melee attack in this case would be an interesting one. It enables a stastically weaker melee opponent to try out more options to deal with a stronger one: for example it may force a strong melee opponent to use a saber that focuses on BBD rather than maximum damage. It also multiplies the number of build choices because you now can determine whether you want to max/min for melee, ranged, force powers, or some combo of them. More choices = better as long as they're reasonable (certainly the number of feat and Foce power choices in TSL indicates that world-class game developers believe this to be true).

 

You have to realize that if you mix and match things, you're going to be significantly weaker then a specialist opponent.

Not that you will be only able to hold a single pistol.

You might not even be able to max out or even have good skill in either ranged or melee combat. You'll be not bad and not good, just average.

A game should certainly not allow you to try every single option available during the course of a single run through the game.

 

If a melee-ranged combo is too unreasonable as a way for real people and/or Jedi to fight, then forget it. If it's conceivable, then I'm for it.

 

Partly, it is unreasonable. Bayonnets are used to combine both ranged and melee but both are significantly hampered. However, this isn't simply the case of somebody holding a gun in one hand and a sword in another. If it was a simple vibroblade, it could look decent, but it isn't the case.

We're talking about a melee weapon that can counter ranged opponents. Unlike a regular vibroblade, you can actually deflect bolts and rush up against an opponent. If you had a regular vibroblade, it would truly serve as a defense against melee opponents who closed in all you and managed to avoid your fire.

 

 

You're the one talking about "too big a penalty." What does that mean? I'm sure that playtesters can figure out what the IDEAL penalty would be to make such a strategy useful with a good setup and bad with a poor setup, and balancing the penalty with the other combat options to make them reasonably equal if min/maxed properly. Playtesting is how every respectable RPG has determined what the penalties should be for various strategies. They don't randomly decide numbers, they try out various numbers to determine what they think is FAIR. Why is this one aspect the only one in any RPG system that would be randomly chosen to have "too big a penalty?"

 

Because it is overpowered, at it's base, overpowered. The ability to both deflect ranged attacks and counter them by standing still without having any penalty is unbalanced. The "correct" penalty would be a massive disadvantage to both ranged and melee abilities, as both are combined into one.

If you're not good in either, but not bad either, you're weaker then those who are specialists. Usually, specialist characters, either melee or ranged, have special abilities to counter-weight their respective disadvantages.

Melee characters will usually have more VP and ranged characters better attack rates.

 

A melee character who manages to close in on your character would crush you. Him, being a melee specialist, has the advantage over you being a jack-of-all-trades. Even if you have the ability to defend yourself, it's only for one of those last resort situation.

As for ranged, even though you have good blaster bolt deflection, many bolt will get through and your opponent will likely have shields and a high defense rating helping him avoid the shots. Add to that the fact that ranged characters usually have a very high attack, it will help them get through your jack-of-all-traed defense.

 

 

Look, we get it. You don't like the idea. At this point just say "I think just think it's stupid" and be done with it.

 

So you said that if i's unconceivable, then we should forget it, but you don't want to hear if it's unconceivable or not?

I bring up the opposite point of view and how or why it would be unconceivable. Of course, since it's not your point of view, it's all a bunch of crap.

Your attempt at looking unbiased has failed.

[Mono_Giganto]

YOU ALREADY DO THIS WITH FORCE POWERS AND A SABER!!!! My goodness. It's not about mechanics or balance. It doesn't unbalance anything *MORE* than it's already unbalanced.

 

Did you miss the part of LIAYD's post where he talks about Limited FP vs. Unlimited Ammunition?

 

If force wave could be done infinitely, and did the same amount of damage as a suped up pistol, then it wouldn't balance anything any more.

 

Edit: I see you beat me to it.

[Vladimir-Vlada]

Because it is overpowered, at it's base, overpowered. The ability to both deflect ranged attacks and counter them by standing still without having any penalty is unbalanced.

You are not a GOD of martial arts to deflect any blow. Unless you use cheats.

[Mono_Giganto]

Well,that's where you are mistaken. Due to the ease of the KotOR games, it is quite possible to become a "God," as you call it, at blaster deflection. However, this usually comes at the penalty of a low attack strength. No such attack penalty exists here, so, to limit your "Godliness," Deflection would take a hit. It's how RPGs work. Great bonuses are coupled with great penalties.

 

Only thing that would be acceptable to me is an additional attack feat for ranged weapons, which incorporates a close range weapon-bash melee attack. Does less damage than a normal shot, but increases defense temporarily, or something. Even that's crossing the line though, that's sort of in the FPS realm.

[lukeiamyourdad]

That wouldn't be too bad an idea actually. Even if it's FPS like. Though it also kills the purpose of being able to switch to melee weapons.

[Vladimir-Vlada]

You could become a 'god' according to the strength of the character. But in blaster deflection... I don't think so.

 

Even that's crossing the line though, that's sort of in the FPS realm.

Bioware, Obsidian and Lucas Arts already stepped into almost every realm in existence with single products. They won't stop: Star Wars, as a mark, was meant to break rules in every genre it presents itself. It's what makes it great. Deal with it.

[Mono_Giganto]

That wouldn't be too bad an idea actually. Even if it's FPS like. Though it also kills the purpose of being able to switch to melee weapons.

 

Well, I didn't plan on it being nearly as powerful as, say, your suped up lightsaber or vibrosword. But it gives the strict gunners a little move for close range if they get swarmed. It'd be ideal if you shot the crap out of something as it approached your gunner, then used a melee hit to finish it off, giving you a small defense boost for that round too. Then there's no hassle of switching to a melee weapon just for one hit.

 

Sadly, since feats have a habit of being hardcoded, it's not a mod possibility, OE would actually have to do it.

 

And as for blaster deflection, with the right upgrades, you can add close to 20+ to your deflection roll. Do that in a double saber, and it's 20+ for both blades. Then there's a +10 (Or is it +6?) if you invest in all levels of Jedi Defense. Then there are the saber forms which add +5 or so. so, lets just say 30+ Deflection now. All you have to do is roll higher than them to deflect. Pretty sure that boost will give you the higher roll, when coupled with your natural roll. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised to see most shots redirected back to their targets. You can indeed become a deflection god.

[JediMaster12]

It's all technical to me but I thought the ability to hold a blaster and a saber or vibroblade would be cool. If it is going to take work on the part of the devs, then I would rather they concentrate on the storyline.

[Vladimir-Vlada]

If it is going to take work on the part of the devs, then I would rather they concentrate on the storyline.

Geez, people! They only have to type in 20 numbers.

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Geez, people! They only have to type in 20 numbers.

 

Well then, the only problem is: Will they type the 20 numbers?

[Vladimir-Vlada]

Well then' date=' the only problem is: Will they type the 20 numbers?[/quote']

Yes that's what I thought. Because what is sugested here is more of a harmless bug (from their point of view), rather than something that could bring down the entire D20 system.

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Even though I have my reasons for wanting this particular option, I have a bad feeling about this. Not too many people seemed to find it as interesting or useful. So perhaps, the devs will think of it as a waste of time, or maybe not at all. I just feel this game is going to need a lot to bringback the exitement of the '03 game of the year.