Views on Jedi

[Nancy Allen``]

Yeah I'd agree with that. Anybody think there would be Lethal Alliance if Aayla Secura wasn't so popular? Or how about having so many nods to the first KOTOR in Sith Lords, from returning characters to film easter eggs? I'm sure that because of how much Jar Jar Binks was hated his screen time was limited to basically siding with Palpatine. Though if there was fan control over something, like, say, events between RotS and ANH or what happens after Sith Lords I wonder how diffirent it would be to what is either already established or what the projected storylines would be.

[Jediphile]

And that also means that there is a distinct chance that Kreia WOULD be willing to end all life IF it also meant the end to the meddling Force. And your quote even included her saying that she hates the Force. If the Force inherently has a will, then the only way to destroy the will is to destroy the Force.

 

Yes, but only if you take what Kreia says out of context. Yes, she does say that she hates the force, but you can only take that as an absolute if you choose to completely ignore the rest of what she says. As for her willingness to let all life die, note what she says near the end of the quote (underlined). That comment does not make much sense if Kreia does not care about life.

 

Kreia: "Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. "

 

Maybe Qui-Gon is crazy... You're right, I loathe the idea. Sounds much too akin to the demon on one shoulder and the angel on the other.

 

Well, I'm not saying I'm too crazy about it either. I really don't like the idea of the midi-chlorians, but it's not my universe - it's George Lucas', and he does seem to like making things pretty black and white. So midi-chlorians are a fact in Star Wars. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant.

 

No matter what, you can't DEFINITIVELY say that life can exist without the Force. You DEFINITELY can't claim to know whether Kreia would be willing for all life to end if it meant the end of the Force (kinda like Captain Ahab being willing to sacrifice anything to kill Moby Dick). And IF life can exist independently of the Force, then HOW does FORCE-DRAIN work, when the ONLY thing it "drains" is Force? By definition, Force must be life. Even when the Exile "cut himself off", he could STILL "hear" it, it was just really faint. He didn't remove himself from the Force, he just buried it really deep within himself and threw away the key.

 

Exile to Sion: "It is simple. As she did, I was forced to survive without the Force. That is what she respects.I have beaten you. Admit it, finally, and surrender. What kind of life have you lived with the Force flowing through you? Was it worth living?It is the truth, Sion... you feel it. Let go. It is not such a terrible thing.The place is not what matters, it is the man.It is possible to live without the Force. And die without it.The Force fills an empty, shattered shell."

 

The exile would seem to disagree with you, and bear in mind that how the exile could "hear" the force is EXACTLY how the exile describes the sensation to Kreia when his connection with the force is re-established.

 

Exile: "When we were on Peragus, I could feel the Force again.It was like a whisper, at the edge of hearing. No... it felt... different. Faint."

 

And note, that this is after the Exile has been unable to use the force for an entire decade! What did the exile hear during that decade? Given how the exile chooses to describe himself, it would seem that he heard absolutely nothing.

[SilentScope001]

Well, ultimately we as players and fans does have some control over stuff. The obvious example being the bobba resurrection. Well obviously he is back due to the wishes of his fans(and the possable merchandise that goes with it).

 

Point, since we are also comsumers and the galaxy far far away is also tied to annoying mundane things like money and profit, the general tide of our wishes does sway things around sometimes, ignoring the SWG case since Sony is a muthraflucking besturd son of a beach that doesn't listen to nyone and sells inferior overpriced consoles.

 

You make a point too...we too contorl the Star Wars, and do share in the misery for all the characters as well. I agree.

 

Though if there was fan control over something, like, say, events between RotS and ANH or what happens after Sith Lords I wonder how diffirent it would be to what is either already established or what the projected storylines would be.

 

Very, very different. I'm planning on reading all the fan-fiction K3 storylines, and then comparing them to the actual K3 (if it comes out)...you know, for the laugh factor.

[hftghftrd]

The primary goal of the Jedi isn't that they want power anyway, they technically already have that. Their primary goal in my opinon is to protect the citizens and enforce the laws of the Republic at all costs.

 

The main thing that I think seperates Star Wars from most other Fiction when it comes to the arrogance and Bureaucracy of the primary government (Republic and Jedi) in that particular universe is that, despite it's arrogance and aforementioned slowness and various other problems, the Republic and Jedi is far and away the better than the most likely alternative: Sith dominated anarchy. Yeah, there's the Grey Jedi, Post War Mandalorians, Exchange, and others but if they aren't capable of directly confronting the Jedi and Republic, then there's no way in hell that they can take on the Sith and others.

 

Sure, both the Old Republic and the Jedi have problems, but they are also the only reason that anybody in the Star Wars Galaxy can lead a relatively comfortable life that is free of danger from the Sith and others. Getting rid of them would have absolutely disastrous consequences for the average person unless the entire galaxy is reformed.

[Nancy Allen``]

Very, very different. I'm planning on reading all the fan-fiction K3 storylines, and then comparing them to the actual K3 (if it comes out)...you know, for the laugh factor.

 

Yes. As much as I'm a fan of the Carth\Revan relationship officially Revan is male, and with Bastila. As much as I loved Mira laying out how to get a man to Visas and the Handmaiden Exile is female, which makes the scene impossible unless there's a mod to let you get both Brianna and Mical.

[Darth Avlectus]

 

You don't seem grey so much as you seem to simply be a nonbeliever. The grey Jedi see the Force to be more healthy when balanced between light and dark, and you look at it like it could not possibly be- or at least in the sense that we supposedly know it.

 

I would like to believe that the Force is grey, and balanced- completely one entity, with no light and dark side. But our Lord George Lucas has told us on many occasions that the Force isn't, so unfortunately, I just look evil.

 

The Force is all about how you allow it to flow through you. Even the Dark Lords can exert more control over themselves than Jedi if they are truly strong.

Nonbeliever? Umm, OK? how do YOU know what IIIIIIII am seeing and thinking? (ahem--with all due respect) Ah, yes. Don't I wish that grey (or green?) area could last forever...I suppose one could live life to that effect. Born, live, and die. Though I question what kind of radical effect could anyone hope to enact like that? Certainly not something lasting as it all would counteract itself--if one is not to be the slightest in light or dark.

 

I don't disbelieve/deny something that is too vast to fully comprehend or experience. with fact and mataphor I use, I try to understand it as best I can--no different than Jedi or Sith.

Philosophy of: err on the honorable and try to use foresight, but I like to get down and beat down people too when I've had enough crap.

 

Though I'll admit you are rather observant: my RP characters do tend to lean away from force dependency--as a matter of self sufficiency and, in a way, honor. Unlike Kreia, I'm not crazed. I know that, even if the elixirs of fate, life, and the force are not one and the same, they do intertwine and are woven throughout entirety of all. How would you go about destroying all of it? That's like killing off sentients to protect them from the seeds of evil from within from sprouting: it turns into stalon and hitler type genocide. Even if the intent is initally good--you ultimately are a bad, rotten, apple.

 

I look half evil. However I try to remain good enough to look decent--not like some corpse with drained pigmentation. Always had a thing for both light and dark in a yin-yang sort of deal. I was surprised how much my personality had in common with mace windu: emotional intesity, preference for the physical aspects rather than force mastery, pent up hostility--though as releief I can be abrasive or sarcastic. I can occasionally have a different sense of humor like calling you all meatbags--but this can get out of hand.

While I can mean well, I too have a noticeable undercurrent of the darkside.

 

I was speaking to the effect of (and forgive me for sounding like a broken record or scratched CD): the power of chioce will always yield a possibility of evil or good. So regardless how many of either side you kill, that doesn't rid existence of it. Yes there are those who can willfully choose to be good...and perhaps avoid conflict altogether (though I doubt it is possible to know either side without conflict).

 

If what is happening has always been happening and always will--fine. However, I'm no saganist or super-uniformitarian or existentialist (though I probably sound like all 3 with agnostic philosophy); I don't see that they necessarily exclude creationism. Though their creators probably had an anti-god view to make it go that way.

Admittedly, I don't see the ultimate being, (god, the force, all of existence, whatever) as necessarily a person in charge who either accepts you or not--I see it as something much bigger. While anyone would do well and be healthy to support thesis, creation, and non-conflict; the opposites are just as much a part of life. Life cannot be without them.

 

I'm not someone to judge anybody else. I was simply raised to be more spiritual at the core than religious. Raised judeo-christian with some native american indian influence if you must know. Most importantly I was taught that even if I cannot agree with another's belief system, that I respect it too.......unless it is disrespecful to others, violent, and teaches harming others is not just necessity, but a good thing. There is survival of the fittest, then there's oppression.

 

Also I'm implying that, if we were created, we had to obviously come from something greater that knew, contained, and experienced conflict...and it cnanot diminish no matter how extreme or moderate it is. Since that being is the entirety of all and has a life of its own, anywhere on the continuum of order and chaos will be optimum. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. A being of existence without the conflict is not greater. It is lesser and could not have, alone, created something greater than itself.

 

Anyway, it's late here. I'm shutting myself down for awhile--while you meatbags can continue to prattle on.

[Darca Lar]

So you would say that arrogance on the part of the Jedi is what caused the Mandalorian wars and later the rise of the Empire?

 

"Everyone thinks that the Jedi are perfect." Jolee Bindo

 

They didn't cause it, they merely caused the outcome to be what it was due to their inactions, neglecting the students by stating their point but not explaining it clearly. The Jedi did not change as the times did, they kept their old teachings all the way to the end of the Clone Wars. Have they not been so one-track minded, they would have seen it coming and changed the outcome. But not everyones perfect, although they'd like to believe they were, they faulted without realizing it.

[aner21]

"The Jedi did not change as the times did, they kept their old teachings all the way to the end of the Clone Wars. Have they not been so one-track minded, they would have seen it coming and changed the outcome. But not everyones perfect, although they'd like to believe they were, they faulted without realizing it"

 

Jedi are expected to be flawless due to their training and grooming. I think the distance they keep with those they protect is the main reason in TSL people don't know (or care) to make a distinction between Jedi and Sith. The Old Order says that feelings (like love) are dangerous.

Yet what is compassion if not love?? The Jedi in the OT are nearly extinct and we can only see personal opinions but in PT their philosophy seems consistent with those of the games. Can you truly care if you don't feel?? To do things because they are expected of you is not Light Side is it?? If you are controled by your emotions you can cause a lot of harm, but if you analize everything and do nothing your causing harm by default. I think that is the greatest mistake of the Order: instead of teaching their students to control their emotions and grow stonger by them they decided teach to them ditachment, making them an easier prey to their feelings. Their teachings were not wrong, only flawed and lead to their destruction.

 

In an earlier post someone mentioned the republic and the order almost as the same, but they are quite different. The Order seeks to make the world and themselves better, while the republic tends to waste energy in pointless political warfares, with no regards for the populations they "serve". That is why Palpatinne succeded.

[Darca Lar]

Yeah, even though Palpatine as Sith...I've gotta give him props for devising such an elaborate plan. Every step acted accordingly, and he had it all...of course until he underestimated the Skywalker's.

[PoiuyWired]

Yeah, even though Palpatine as Sith...I've gotta give him props for devising such an elaborate plan. Every step acted accordingly, and he had it all...of course until he underestimated the Skywalker's.

 

Well, there are actually quite some steps that are unexpacted, or out of control. But there are also many backup plan Bs. Also, Sith expact changes, and new soultions and plots are put into action whenever something unexpacted happens, as time would not be whasted in yearlong meitations. Remember, Rules are subject to change without notice for a Sith. Even things like rule of the two are nothing but guidelines, and can be casted away with relative ease. (for that you are rewarded with hot lethian twi'lek chick)

[Darca Lar]

There wasn't really that many unexpected things with Palpatine. He read Anikin's mind, which is how he knew about his assignment to spy on him, and about his marriage to Padme. Not only that he foresaw the fall of the Jedi and many other events. Which is how he was ready for practically anything that could go wrong. Sure he almost lost his life when he fought with Mace Windu, and he would have died too, but he was already counting on Skywalker's intervention because of his fear of losing Padme. So all in all, he already had everything pretty much figured out.

[Nancy Allen``]

Of course there were times when the Empire ****ed up badly as well. Like the Death Star, yes you heard right, when they destroyed Aldaraan it rallied the galaxy against them like nothing else.

[aner21]

That's the main problem with the sith. They believe that rulling by fear is a demonstration of strenght, or superiority. The problem with the survival of the fittest theory is that there's always someone who's better at it then you. Even if your stronger today, in a couple of years that might not be the case.

[PoiuyWired]

First off, rule by fear is not necessarily a sith philosophy, and if everything is fine and all, fear is not needed.

 

As for the survival of the fittest, well that is Sith. A Sith expacts to be defeated/destroyed by someone stronger, and they know that someday he would be defeated by his underling, or something like that. As an underling you are supposed to get strong enough to best your master. Hence, both master and underling is tryign to get better, if only to survive. Obviously, one day a Sith would be defeated, cause of his fault, and that includes being weak. Such is the way of Sith.

[Darca Lar]

Yeah, 'rule by fear' was actually the Empire's thing...even if it was ran by a Sith Lord, he was still the Emperor.

[Jediphile]

First off, rule by fear is not necessarily a sith philosophy, and if everything is fine and all, fear is not needed.

 

As for the survival of the fittest, well that is Sith. A Sith expacts to be defeated/destroyed by someone stronger, and they know that someday he would be defeated by his underling, or something like that. As an underling you are supposed to get strong enough to best your master. Hence, both master and underling is tryign to get better, if only to survive. Obviously, one day a Sith would be defeated, cause of his fault, and that includes being weak. Such is the way of Sith.

 

Unless you decide to stab your master while he sleeps, of course...

[Darca Lar]

Dude, Palpatine was the weak one to kill his master in such a way rather than challenging him face to face. He was the coward, just like when Malak fired upon Revan's ship during the space battle.

[SilentScope001]

Unless you decide to stab your master while he sleeps, of course...

 

"Sleeping is weakness! If you are sleeping, you are tired! And if you are tired, you are weak! Weakness is not to be tolerated within the Sith! Plus, Jedi sleep, so why should we take up a pratice that the weak and pathetic Jedi follows?

 

This is why Czerka Corproation is creating brand new Cyrstal Meth, to be sold to all Sith Lords at a very low price! Never sleep again!"

[Jediphile]

Dude, Palpatine was the weak one to kill his master in such a way rather than challenging him face to face. He was the coward, just like when Malak fired upon Revan's ship during the space battle.

 

Cowardly or sneaky and smart? I'd definitely say the former for Malak, since he doesn't demonstrate much intellect throughout the rest of KotOR, but for Palpatine I'm less certain. And as Cardinal Richelieu would say, "Treason is only a matter of dates..."

[Darca Lar]

Actually its all three. It's sneaky and smart because Palpatine probably would have died fighting his master(although we'll never know), and cowardly for the exact same reason.

[Prime]

Dude, Palpatine was the weak one to kill his master in such a way rather than challenging him face to face. He was the coward, just like when Malak fired upon Revan's ship during the space battle.

I don't know, that sounds like exactly how the Sith operate.

[adamqd]

Dude, Palpatine was the weak one to kill his master in such a way rather than challenging him face to face. He was the coward, just like when Malak fired upon Revan's ship during the space battle.

 

Malak was probably a coward in the eyes of the Sith at that time, but Palpatine was a member of the Sith Order of Darth Bane, secrecy and guile was his motto IMHO

[PoiuyWired]

Actually no. He might be a coward, but the strong survive, by any means possable. If Palpy's master is stupid/weak/trusting enough to rest without proper precaution against his underlings, it is his own fault.

 

The same can be said about Revan, though I would say that "bad luck" has something to do with his fate on that one. Every little gear has to be in its place for Malak to pull that off, that includes anything from Jedi infiltration, Location of the Battle, Battleship positions, lack of a droid protector, Bastila remembering to bring a lightsaber... Anything not in its place and we would see Malak loosing his jaw or worse...

 

Well, I would like to see how Darth Tyrant raise p to be a Sith Lord though. For some reason he seems to be doing a combination of teachings by both Darth Bane and the so-called Darth Kaan(or however you spell that, Darth nutcase and the thought bomb). There is more than two Sith, but they seem to kill their master when they are ready also(We don't know if the master is allowed to fight back though). Also, Krayt prefers a more direct approach rather than the secrecy of good old palpy.

[adamqd]

Actually no. He might be a coward, but the strong survive.

 

He's not really the strongest if he's a coward is he? But I'm not saying he is a coward, only commenting on the possible views of his subordinates.

I think it should be "Only the Intelligent survive", maybe Malak didn't fear Revan, only he knew he could not defeat him in single combat, after all he did accept the title of apprentice.

[Darca Lar]

"only the strong survive" doesn't technically mean strong physically. In the Sith sense, it's more the one with the most power. In order to have the most power, your master must die. And if you're too weak for frontal confrontation of the physical sorts,(like David and Goliath) the alternative is smarts...which Palpatine had. So Palpatine was a weak, smart guy A.K.A. "nerd".