Do You Think It Can Be Possible..

[Ztalker]

Well, in most Starwars stories/films, people wear some kind of extra protection over their robes.

For Example: Anakin wears a leather band over his upper tunic. Not only does it look cool, i bet it would give some extra protection. Also, Obi Wan wears a mixture of Clone Trooper armor and Jedi Robes, for it's protection in the battle of Mullinist (Clone Wars cartoon). I think adding such robes would be very cool, and give your more the feeling of being a 'general.'

 

They should go with some penalties though. Force should be usable, since it's ridiculous someone would lose all his force powers because he/she wears an other armor. Penalties on movement speed and dexternity could be an idea...

[RobQel-Droma]

Well, in most Starwars stories/films, people wear some kind of extra protection over their robes.

For Example: Anakin wears a leather band over his upper tunic.

 

He doesn't actually wear anything else than other Jedi wear. That "leather band" was just a part of the regular Jedi Robes, except made of synthetic material to offer more protection. Being able to change/wear different materials on your robes might be a good idea, but that really isn't what this is about.

 

Actually your comparison made no sense. Under the plates, they often wear chain mail and under that some sort of light shirt.

By the way, those things are actually insanely flexible. Well, not insanely, but a lot more then you think.

 

Sorry, probably not the best example. I'm just saying that layers present a lot of difficulties with movement, force powers, etc.

 

The other very feasible possibility is two different slots, one for armor, one for cloak. This actually would fulfil many people's demand.

You could then have the Jedi Robe without the cloak without creating a new type of armor and have regular armor with a cloak.

 

Rob- How is the layer system less realistic then what we currently have?

 

Here is what I am trying to say. Jedi Robes have no armor, that goes against what a Jedi Robe is made for. Armor with a cloak doesn't make it Jedi Robes, it is just a different armor. You guys keep talking about having layers with a Jedi Robe and a Light armor, that would seriously complicate things:

 

For one, think about all the different possible complications that one could put in all these different slots. Would they all make your character have unique looks depending on the combination? You would almost double or triple the amount of appearances that your character would be able to have. It would also complicate things because now their is two-three clothing spots, and to make it at all feasible, you would have to keep in mind all the different bonuses and penalties.

 

A cloak, one connected to some kind of light armor, is not some all powerful object that causes the armor to be "Jedi Robes", and therefore not force-restricting. This would make the armor even more force power restricting, and it would ultimately be an absolute pain to try and fight with it. Why not just wear heavy armor?

 

Not only that, you don't need all this to have these "armored robes." As I said before, you guys are making it waaaay too complicated. I am fine with having ZS/JS armor, or that stuff that you wanted Hai Wan: Jedi Robe-like armor, some kind of "Jedi Armor" that has, say, a light chest plate, guantlets, and so on. You don't have to have these ridiculous "layers" to have that. Just make some more armor types, that in bonuses and type are basically the ZS/JS stuff, but look more like what you want. Wouldn't that be better than adding all this unnecessary stuff?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Here is what I am trying to say. Jedi Robes have no armor, that goes against what a Jedi Robe is made for. Armor with a cloak doesn't make it Jedi Robes, it is just a different armor. You guys keep talking about having layers with a Jedi Robe and a Light armor, that would seriously complicate things:

 

I think you misunderstand. All I can see from Hai Wan's example is that he wants some sort of ZS/JS but good looking and ressembling a Jedi Robe. Basically, a non-force restricting armor with a Jedi Cloak.

 

For one, think about all the different possible complications that one could put in all these different slots. Would they all make your character have unique looks depending on the combination? You would almost double or triple the amount of appearances that your character would be able to have.

 

Inherently bad because? You've just said what a lot of people wanted to hear. Better clothing customization.

 

It would also complicate things because now their is two-three clothing spots, and to make it at all feasible, you would have to keep in mind all the different bonuses and penalties.

 

Which is bad in an RPG? That's actually what you should be doing in an RPG. Keeping penalties and bonuses in mind. Besides, on your character screens, you have a quite easy to understand summary of the different bonuses and penalties.

 

 

A cloak, one connected to some kind of light armor, is not some all powerful object that causes the armor to be "Jedi Robes", and therefore not force-restricting. This would make the armor even more force power restricting, and it would ultimately be an absolute pain to try and fight with it. Why not just wear heavy armor?

 

Of course not, but one could say the same about the ZS/JS armors. Yet, they're all powerful objects and you have stated you were ok with those.

 

 

Not only that, you don't need all this to have these "armored robes." As I said before, you guys are making it waaaay too complicated. I am fine with having ZS/JS armor, or that stuff that you wanted Hai Wan: Jedi Robe-like armor, some kind of "Jedi Armor" that has, say, a light chest plate, guantlets, and so on. You don't have to have these ridiculous "layers" to have that. Just make some more armor types, that in bonuses and type are basically the ZS/JS stuff, but look more like what you want. Wouldn't that be better than adding all this unnecessary stuff?

 

Actually, your claims of complications make no sense. In fact, many RPGs do use many armor slots with great success.

 

I think you focus too much on the thought that an additionnal layer of clothing means more complication. Then I ask, where is actually the complication? Yes, you'd have to get a cloak to go with your armor and put it in your cloak slot. That's it.

How is it complicated? It doesn't even have to be a special Force cloak or anything.

 

I think your claims of overcomplication are based on absolutely nothing. Having different clothing layers is nothing new, increases customization and is very easily doable.

[Char Ell]

Yes. Once you have armor all mixed up with the original robes, it is no longer a regular plain Jedi Robe.

Congratulations to us! We are finally communicating.

 

OK. I can see the whole "you can't call it a Jedi Robe if it has armor" concept. I think calling it something like Jedi Battle Robes would introduce a degree of separation that should be sufficient to distinguish from the classic Jedi Robe. In fact that is what Colma Adawin calls his mod.

Combine Jedi Robes, however light, with light armor, and it gets to be pretty bulky, and restricting.

I don't see this at all. In KotOR and TSL you equip the PC and NPC's with armor and they fight in it. Adding a Jedi cloak to the mix shouldn't really do anything at all in the way of restriction, except maybe get in the way sometimes with all their swishing around. If we're talking downright realism here then IMO Jedi shouldn't be fighting in the style of robes shown in TSL to begin with. But of course most like the way TSL robes look more than the KotOR robes. I know I did.

 

All I can see from Hai Wan's example is that he wants some sort of ZS/JS but good looking and ressembling a Jedi Robe. Basically, a non-force restricting armor with a Jedi Cloak.

Yep. That pretty much sums it up.

I envision having the two regular armor upgrade slots but no upgrade slots for the robe/cloak itself but the armor having some level of energy resistance built into it in consideration of lightsaber dueling and blaster attacks. And I'm not thinking medium or heavy armor for this (sorry REDJOHNNYMIKE). This definitely would have to remain light class armor or it loses realism for me. But maybe a max dexterity bonus of +6 or something like that but with no force restrictions. I really thought the +4 DEX bonus limit on the JS/ZS armor was a bit too restrictive.

 

So yeah CadmiumRED, I'm with you on this. If this battle robes concept made it into the next KotOR that would be suh-weet indeed! The devs did it with the force pike in TSL, right? Maybe, just maybe, they will do it here too.

[REDJOHNNYMIKE]

One thing I'd like to see, that would decrease the need for a model of every outfit variation....seperate physics based clothes/robes (like on your G.I. Joe dolls), you could have a base model for the clothing/underwear layers, and attach a seperate robe/armor model to it (clipping would be a project) if you used a sizing system where medium robes cover light armor, heavy robes cover medium armor this could work, this would also make possible one of my previous suggestions about degradeable armor.

 

Robes would still retain their slots, so you can swap robes and or armor for different attributes, since all moddable items retain their upgrades (wether or not you have them equipped

 

Maybe force restriction should be dropped entirely, Vader can choke you through a life support suit, while fighting you with a saber, after suffering critical injuries, if armor cuts your connection to the force then a helmet which both PC's and Vader use would decrease it drastically, not to mention hampering the force sight power.

And even if armor were to be a force "insulator" if it actually does "flow through living things" you could use the the force in your body internal to the suit to "force heal" yourself, thereby providing at least one exception to the restriction rule.

I don't think you can look at it as detaching a load from a circuit and cutting current through it, otherwise the second any jedi put on armor they would start to experience what exile did. Also, why can you feel the force through a robe and not the clothing worn with armor, body armor doesn't cover you entirely.

IMHO armor restrictions should apply more to movement speed and actual combat dexterity than force connection.

 

Why can't I wear Armor, or a Jedi robe, or a robe over armor, or armored robes, or whatever I want?

 

I'm starting to suspect that Rob might be an OE modeler

[RedHawke]

^^^^

Well, about the 'No Force Powers in armor' rules, see... this is where you get holdovers from universal RPG systems, like D20.

 

In the core D&D Fantasy version armor gets in the way of Magic Users being able to cast their spells, it is an attempt to limit a 'Spell Caster' character somewhat for the sake of game balance.

 

Though there are armors like Elvish Chainmail that Magic users can wear to play an Armored Mage, the Zal Shey suits were added into TSL for this exact same reason.

 

Now when that system is adapted to sci-fi, where armors work differently, and so does the 'Magic' instead of having to adapt rules to the genre, they fit the genre to the rules, a common practice BTW... hence The Force is handled exactly like Magic, and Armor is as it is in the Fantasy setting, so there are as little changes as possible so people who have played one game using that system will adapt easily to the new game.

 

Many people lament that they want a system "exactly" befitting the movies, this just isn't possible, you have to nerf and re-arrange things from the source material to make a system playable and balanced.

 

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, this is just what was part of the process to create the RPG game system itself...

[REDJOHNNYMIKE]

It just doesn't seem right, there should be restrictions from heavier armor, but it shouldn't affect the force (unless it is designed to block the force, I know there was a mask that was similar in concept)

[RedHawke]

It just doesn't seem right, there should be restrictions from heavier armor, but it shouldn't affect the force (unless it is designed to block the force, I know there was a mask that was similar in concept)

It is a correct rule according to the rules of that game system... so this part will not be changed, it is needed for game balance, simple as that.

 

Edit: Besides it is a simple 2da edit to remove it anyway!

[JediMaster12]

You know, this whole thing about armour and robes can depress a person but as I've stated before I prefer robes for the PC and when I jedified my NPCs I gave them robes too. I'm not saying that armour is bad, quite the opposite. I think it is quite useful if you look at the dexterity and defense bonus and attack modifiers. To have armour with a cloak doesn't sound right to me, in fact I looked at the JalShay armour and thought it looked ugly. I would probably have been more impressed if it looked more samurai-like if that was what the devs were attempting.

 

@Rob How's Bandomeer?

 

@RedHawke, your mod for TSL's Exile's general uniform pack is way cool!

[Steve-O Kreesh]

I agree with JediMaster12, I never knew the debate over robes or armor would be so heated. Everyone take a breath and repeat after me,

 

"There is no emotion, there is peace."

 

Everyone feel better?

 

Now, combining armor and robes together is not a new idea for Star Wars. If anyone watched Clone Wars V2, you will notice that both Anakin and Obi-Wan wear robes with some armor pieces incorporated in the robes. Something similar to those would be nice in kotor3.

 

sidenote: Obi-Wan wore clone armor in V1 and it looked bada$$!!!

[JediMaster12]

Yes I use that first part of the Jedi Code to calm myself. Thank you Steve-O-Kreesh.

As I've said before, in my badly typed previous post, armour isn't a bad thing. I've never seen Clone Wars V2 or V2 so I'll take your word on that. I think what really gets people is the D20 engine rules and restrictions. Heck maybe they could improve on the appearance of the Jal-Shey armour and make it look more appealing.

[Shem]

Would it be possible if armor and robes can be worn at the same time? Look at Ulic Qel-Droma before he was a Sith, he wore armor/robes on him, and he looked REALLY cool. Maybe it might not be for KOTOR III, but I'd love to see this happen in future KOTOR games. What do you all think of this idea?

 

Kinda like Obi-Wan's armor in the Clone Wars cartoons.

[RobQel-Droma]

^I don't exactly feel that a Clone Wars cartoon has much relevance on this, though. Just my opinion.

 

Actually your comparison made no sense.

Actually, your claims of complications make no sense.

 

Has anything I've said made any sense? It made sense to me, actually. I don't really care if other RPGs do this kind of thing, KOTOR hasn't so far. It doesn't make sense to completely change the clothing part.

 

I feel like the layer thing should be in another thread. It has nothing to do with "Jedi Battle Robes."

 

Inherently bad because? You've just said what a lot of people wanted to hear. Better clothing customization.

 

At the expense of the story? Do you want another TSL? Not that it was a bad game, but do you want to have the devs spend all this time incorporating this into K3, at having a crappy and unfinished story?

 

I think you focus too much on the thought that an additionnal layer of clothing means more complication. Then I ask, where is actually the complication? Yes, you'd have to get a cloak to go with your armor and put it in your cloak slot. That's it.

How is it complicated? It doesn't even have to be a special Force cloak or anything.

 

I think your claims of overcomplication are based on absolutely nothing. Having different clothing layers is nothing new, increases customization and is very easily doable.

 

*sigh* But WHY? Why are you not content with an armor with the same basic stats as the ZS/JS armor, yet looking better? You don't even have to have one layer for a cloak, and another for armor; Why not just combine them? I wasn't saying that a cloak with armor was bad, I was talking about this "wearing armor under full Jedi Robes." If you have armor with a cloak, why not just create some new armors? Don't go in this round-about way to get it.

 

I think I've pretty much stated all my views and opinions. I'm not going to argue with all this "actually, your whatever made no sense." If you don't understand what I am trying to say, I can't do anything about it. It's not like we are going to change the game.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Has anything I've said made any sense? It made sense to me, actually. I don't really care if other RPGs do this kind of thing, KOTOR hasn't so far. It doesn't make sense to completely change the clothing part.

 

Doesn't completely change everything. Only adds to it actually.

 

 

At the expense of the story? Do you want another TSL? Not that it was a bad game, but do you want to have the devs spend all this time incorporating this into K3, at having a crappy and unfinished story?

 

You're right. That is why adding vehicle transportation is very bad...

 

 

 

*sigh* But WHY? Why are you not content with an armor with the same basic stats as the ZS/JS armor, yet looking better?

 

Because I'd like to create my own clothing combinations?

 

 

You don't even have to have one layer for a cloak, and another for armor; Why not just combine them? I wasn't saying that a cloak with armor was bad, I was talking about this "wearing armor under full Jedi Robes." If you have armor with a cloak, why not just create some new armors? Don't go in this round-about way to get it.

 

That's because it might not turn out good looking. Personnal combinations of cloaks and armor would increase replayability.

 

I think I've pretty much stated all my views and opinions. I'm not going to argue with all this "actually, your whatever made no sense." If you don't understand what I am trying to say, I can't do anything about it. It's not like we are going to change the game.

 

Actually, when I used that, it really doesn't make sense since you base your arguments on...errr pretty baseless accusations of overcomplication of the armor/clothing system.

 

Also, I'd advise you to re-read a whole post before quoting me totally out of context.

[REDJOHNNYMIKE]

@RQD, So it is established in SW and RPGs, and it can't be applied to Kotor just because it hasn't yet???

For KIII maybe they'll go back and fix their greivous mistakes such as "influence" or expanded item creation/upgrades

 

"I feel like the layer thing should be in another thread. It has nothing to do with "Jedi Battle Robes."___RQD

 

"Would it be possible if armor and robes can be worn at the same time?"___CadmiumR, thread topic.

 

Layering of clothing is a legitimate way of wearing multiple pieces of clothing at the same time

 

"at the expense of the story"

 

I'm confused...When did all the writers start getting forced into modeling???

The story wasn't crappy, it was simply unfinished, given time (LA rushed it, remember?) the story would've been completed and possibly better features added.

The problem isn't with having to choose between story or gameplay, the problem is that the developer wasn't given enough time to implement all plans.

 

"content...ZS/JS"

 

I'm in agreement with LIAYD's response, it's the same reason I don't want to go into a shop and have all my options limited to sabers with locked crystals, an example....

I find three armor sets in the first level...

1. Your way: I find one light combat suit with a light robe over it, one heavy armor with a jedi robe, and one jedi master robe.

I have three options when I'm considering which items affect my characters strengths and weaknesses.

2. Multi-Layering: I find A. one light combat suit with B. one light robe, C. one heavy armor with D. one jedi robe, and E. one master robe.

My options...

AB

AD

AE

CB

CD

CE

 

Over time I gain more flexibility then I would've ever dreamed of using one-piece suits.

[RobQel-Droma]

^I'm not saying that any new improvements are not good. I just don't like this idea, and think that the clothing options are good as they are without trying to implement this.

 

I'm confused...When did all the writers start getting forced into modeling???

The story wasn't crappy, it was simply unfinished, given time (LA rushed it, remember?) the story would've been completed and possibly better features added.

 

Say it however you want. All right, unfinished story, that is really what I meant by "crappy." But you still stated the problem- time. How long is the company going to get?

 

I don't see this at all. In KotOR and TSL you equip the PC and NPC's with armor and they fight in it. Adding a Jedi cloak to the mix shouldn't really do anything at all in the way of restriction

 

Argh.... I feel like we are talking in two different languages here. I'll try and communicate what I mean- I am not talking about cloak+armor, I am talking about robes+armor. I got the impression you meant having armor under full Jedi Robes. I don't have a problem with light armor with a cape; It's essentially ZS/JS stuff.

 

But why do you need layers to do this? What is the point of attaching a cloak to heavy armor? It isn't going to do anything, it doesn't make it not have force power restrictions, it just means you have a blanket hanging off your shoulders and swishing around.

 

Your right. Thats why adding Vehicle Transportation is a bad idea

 

Right. Like that compares in scale anywhere close to this. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing...

[Char Ell]

Argh.... I feel like we are talking in two different languages here.

Uh-oh. That's not good. I often wonder why it's so hard for people to clearly communicate with each other. Haven't come up with an all-encompassing reason though...

I'll try and communicate what I mean- I am not talking about cloak+armor, I am talking about robes+armor. I got the impression you meant having armor under full Jedi Robes. I don't have a problem with light armor with a cape; It's essentially ZS/JS stuff.

If I understand you correctly I think we're just tripping over the choice of words here and probably don't have much in the way of disagreement at this point. I could be wrong though.

 

Please allow me to clarify. As I see it, the Jedi Robe as depicted in TSL has at least two layers, the outer layer (cloak w/ hood, hereafter simply referred to as cloak) and the inner layer (tunic/pants). While I normally don't like to support my KotOR arguments with examples from the movies, I think (since the TSL robes seem to have been patterned after the ones in the movies) the SW prequels demonstrate this two-layer concept when Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gonn Jinn, and Darth Maul shed their outer layer (cloak) before they earnestly engage in lightsaber combat, leaving them with just the tunic/pants.

So what I would like to see is a variation of this Jedi robe, calling it something besides Jedi Robes if you want, where the inner layer of tunic and pants is replaced with a light armored vest, gauntlets, and greaves. But the outer layer (cloak) would still be worn over it since the cloak is readily identified with the Jedi. The JS/ZS armors really don't offer that sort of look.

 

You seem to be struggling with the idea of layers but I submit that Jedi Robes are already "layered" as they are in game. It's just the game doesn't allow upgrades to the outer layer (cloak). Even with the Jedi Battle Robes concept I think it only logical that the user would still be wearing pants and an undershirt underneath the light armor. So at that point it would be three layers, right? I just think that the only upgradeable part of the outfit should be the armor itself. So when I use the term armor+robes I should instead say armor+cloak as the cloak is what you seem to associate with the outer layer. I was thinking that cloak and robes were interchangeable terms but I see that you don't look at it that way. This is just a matter of semantics.

 

As far as the multiple layers of stuff that REDJOHNNYMIKE and LIAYD refer to I think they already exist to a large extent. But in my view those things are already represented by the gloves, belt, headgear, etc. I really don't want to get down to managing all the clothing layers as I felt I spent too much time as it was with the various upgrades in TSL trying to figure out what items I could use what upgrades on. Adding more things to manage doesn't really appeal to me at this point.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Right. Like that compares in scale anywhere close to this. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing...

 

It has. You came up with the time consumption for a concept that could take away precious developper time argument. It only shows you being inconsistent in your positions.

 

At the expense of the story? Do you want another TSL? Not that it was a bad game, but do you want to have the devs spend all this time incorporating this into K3, at having a crappy and unfinished story?

 

An easy "get-out-of-trouble" argument. It might work on the random novie forummite but not on me. It seems to be used as an instant win argument, preying on the feelings of resentment towards TSL's unfinished stoy and plotholes.

It goes around the actual argument and ends up doing nothing.

Why?

That argument has many flaws. First, it assumes that the developpers will be crunched on time, which might not be the case.

Second, it assumes that they'll spend a humongous amount of time on a new clothing/armor system at the expense of everything else. A rather false assumption as the time they'd spend on it wouldn't be much more then the time they'd spend on facial customization, which is wildly popular.

Finally, it simply stumbles on every possible gameplay amelioration. In other words, any good gameplay elements that can be added gets nuked because there's "not enough time". Basically, instead of being an actual video game with good gameplay, that argument usually wants to make it a text RPG.

 

I really don't want to get down to managing all the clothing layers as I felt I spent too much time as it was with the various upgrades in TSL trying to figure out what items I could use what upgrades on. Adding more things to manage doesn't really appeal to me at this point.

 

Different layers doesn't mean more upgrades for each layers. After all, armbands, headgear and belts didn't have upgrades.

Additionnal layers could have no upgrade possibilities.

 

Add to that, with different layers, you could have a multitude of combos possible. I know a lot of people would like to have a Jedi tunic in the game. It would introduce the tunic without having to create a seperate armor type or look.

 

I think the terms "layers" can get people confused and scared for who knows what. It's not supposed to be harder then putting an item on.

After all, one of the core concepts of the RPG is to customize your character.

It's actually one of the focus and normally isn't much more confusing or harder then a single armor slot.

[REDJOHNNYMIKE]

IMHO each seperate equipable item should be upgradeable, even if that means weakening the upgrades such as power cells to balance the larger number of them.

 

With the exception of some larger and boss battles I always found item customization to be more entertaining than the actual combat, If I can go from spending an hour on my party's armor loadout to a well spent two hours then I'm all for it.

[RobQel-Droma]

It has. You came up with the time consumption for a concept that could take away precious developper time argument. It only shows you being inconsistent in your positions.

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding (wouldn't be the first time in this thread), but I thought you wanted another clothing spot for a cloak of certain design. If so, say you have about six different cloaks- combine that to however many armors there are in the whole game. You just multiplied the amount of armor looks by six.

 

Now compare that to Vehicle Transportation. They really already did this, kind of, with swoop racing. Now just apply that to the other areas, change it a bit, and you have what I suggested. Sorry, but it just looks to me that VT pales in comparison to this layer idea.

 

But I'm not going to argue about which idea is the best, and most worth it. We were talking about layers. And a few questions about this: Would this work on all armors? I don't know about you, but I would puke if I saw a Jedi cloak hooked onto that red Bonadon armor that Carth wears in TSL.

 

An easy "get-out-of-trouble" argument. It might work on the random novie forummite but not on me. It seems to be used as an instant win argument, preying on the feelings of resentment towards TSL's unfinished stoy and plotholes.

 

Sorry, Master Forumite. I was not "nuking" this idea because "there is not enough time." I was talking about the priority level on this. And maybe your right, maybe it really has no point to the argument. I was trying to point out the complexity and amount of what will be changed. Like Hai Wan said:

 

I really don't want to get down to managing all the clothing layers as I felt I spent too much time as it was with the various upgrades in TSL trying to figure out what items I could use what upgrades on. Adding more things to manage doesn't really appeal to me at this point.

 

LIAYD, you might want to read his post again. He was not saying that it would be complicated because of the upgrades for each layer. Even if there wasn't, it would be very complex like he said. It is already hard enough to go through all the different armors and upgrades, and figure out which one is upgraded with what- now you are adding other clothing spots that we have to keep track of also.

 

You seem to think this is adding. It isn't "adding", it is "changing." You are changing the clothing part of the game into something a bit more complex. A few people obviously don't want this to change; it obviously has done well for the past few games, and it doesn't need to be drastically changed like this into something totally different and complex. We need "change," yeah, but not necessarily the key parts of the game.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Maybe I am misunderstanding (wouldn't be the first time in this thread), but I thought you wanted another clothing spot for a cloak of certain design. If so, say you have about six different cloaks- combine that to however many armors there are in the whole game. You just multiplied the amount of armor looks by six.

 

Indeed. Which means more customization and as far as I know, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Now compare that to Vehicle Transportation. They really already did this, kind of, with swoop racing. Now just apply that to the other areas, change it a bit, and you have what I suggested. Sorry, but it just looks to me that VT pales in comparison to this layer idea.

 

But dude! It's so much work! Developper time man!

 

 

But I'm not going to argue about which idea is the best, and most worth it. We were talking about layers. And a few questions about this: Would this work on all armors? I don't know about you, but I would puke if I saw a Jedi cloak hooked onto that red Bonadon armor that Carth wears in TSL.

 

Then don't put a cloak on that.

 

 

Sorry, Master Forumite. I was not "nuking" this idea because "there is not enough time." I was talking about the priority level on this. And maybe your right, maybe it really has no point to the argument. I was trying to point out the complexity and amount of what will be changed.

 

And have not yet given a good logical argument as to how it would be actually complex.

 

 

 

LIAYD, you might want to read his post again. He was not saying that it would be complicated because of the upgrades for each layer. Even if there wasn't, it would be very complex like he said. It is already hard enough to go through all the different armors and upgrades, and figure out which one is upgraded with what- now you are adding other clothing spots that we have to keep track of also.

 

And that's supposed to be insanely complex how?

If one more slot can make it very complex then perhaps we should remove armor all together. I mean, let the developpers decide my character's clothing, so much hassle gone.

 

No, it is not a lot more complex, it isn't that harder to keep track off. Afterall, what is the point of an RPG if you do not take care of your character? Sure, going through the story but like I pointed out, why not just make a text RPG then?

 

You seem to think this is adding. It isn't "adding", it is "changing." You are changing the clothing part of the game into something a bit more complex.

 

Exactly. Keywords: a bit more. It also does add more customization by changing or better yet modifying an existing feature.

 

A few people obviously don't want this to change; it obviously has done well for the past few games, and it doesn't need to be drastically changed like this into something totally different and complex. We need "change," yeah, but not necessarily the key parts of the game.

 

Keywords: a few. Totally different? Partly yes. Complex? I don't think so.

Key part of the game? I thought this was rather visual and eye candy. Certainly not key part. At least I've heard none yet who dared to claim that adding one more clothing spot would destroy the KotOR experience, destroy the feel of the game.

 

Seriously dude, look for better arguments then "OMG! Change man! You're trying to change the core gameplay man!"

You're just trying to prey on feelings again.

[RobQel-Droma]

But dude! It's so much work! Developper time man!

 

I hate it when people respond in ways that imply that I post and think like this.

 

Then don't put a cloak on that.

 

Then give an answer to that problem instead of making sarcastic remarks.

 

And that's supposed to be insanely complex how?

If one more slot can make it very complex then perhaps we should remove armor all together.

 

Take what I said earlier. Now start thinking about whatever bonuses those cloaks would add, and penalties, then what that would do to the armor, etc. Figure out how to combine a cloak and armor so that it doesn't look horrible, and then try and sort through all these in an upgrade or equip menu.

 

Maybe your mind is somehow superior to Hai Wan's and mine; Seems to me it is getting hard to keep track of and equip.

 

Keywords: a few. Totally different? Partly yes. Complex? I don't think so.

Key part of the game? I thought this was rather visual and eye candy. Certainly not key part. At least I've heard none yet who dared to claim that adding one more clothing spot would destroy the KotOR experience, destroy the feel of the game.

 

You seem to like to pick apart my sentences. Let me clarify myself in some better words:

 

I don't know how many people oppose this- certainly a few people in this thread do. Key part: perhaps I should say "major part". It is something that is used quite a bit. And I did not claim that this would destroy the KOTOR feel of the game- it would change it into something else.

 

Seriously dude, look for better arguments then "OMG! Change man! You're trying to change the core gameplay man!"

You're just trying to prey on feelings again.

 

I never said that, or implied that. I never used the term "core gameplay", and I do not have a problem with change in itself. I just have a problem with what this would change. I was not trying to "prey on feelings" again.

 

How about trying to argue with me without quoting things I never said or meant. I could pretty much argue like you are: "OMG! Feelings man! You're preying on feelings!"

[Char Ell]

Maybe your mind is somehow superior to Hai Wan's and mine; Seems to me it is getting hard to keep track of and equip.

Actually, what I'm having a hard time keeping track of in this thread is what the points of contention currently are.

 

IIRC, the thread started out as a question of the feasibility of combining robes with armor for the next KotOR.

 

I think RobQel-Droma is pretty much opposed to the inclusion of armor without force restrictions, unless it's along the lines of the Jal Shey/Zeison Sha armor. He is also opposed to the use of multiple layers, e.g. robes over armor, as he feels it would be bulky and restrictive, all while adding additional complexity to the game.

 

I believe lukeiamyourdad thinks the layers concept is sound and is in line with general RP philosophy, allowing the player a great deal of flexibility and creativity to choose armor/clothing and equipment. Also that allowing a high degree of customization would only be good for the game.

 

And I think REDJOHNNYMIKE wants to be able to go all out and have upgrades for all item types, not just armor, robes, weapons as well as not have much in the way of force restrictions if a force user elects to wear armor.

 

So if I got the above right, I'm not sure that anyone's positions on the matter are subject to change at this point. *shrug*

 

Oh yeah, BTW and FWIW, I do think LIAYD has a superb intellect although I'm not quite willing to concede superiority.

[RobQel-Droma]

^I do agree with you on one thing: I've kind of lost the original point of this thread, and the views of some people. BTW, your list helped, Hai Wan.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I hate it when people respond in ways that imply that I post and think like this.

 

You're right. I did imply that. You've brought up developper time though.

 

Then give an answer to that problem instead of making sarcastic remarks.

 

Sarcastic? How is not putting a cloak on so that the armor doesn't look bad sarcastic?

 

 

Take what I said earlier. Now start thinking about whatever bonuses those cloaks would add, and penalties, then what that would do to the armor, etc. Figure out how to combine a cloak and armor so that it doesn't look horrible, and then try and sort through all these in an upgrade or equip menu.

 

Actually, I never said that the cloak would have bonuses. Ever.

Also, you imply automatically that it might look horrible very often. However, whether it looks horrible or not is based on opinion, not fact.

 

In my mind, a cloak would give no bonuses. The armor underneath would. It's more aesthetic then anything.

 

About combining so that it looks good, how is that supposed to be difficult? You put the armor and cloak on and see what it looks like. End of story. If you don't like it, remove it, sell it to vendor.

 

Maybe your mind is somehow superior to Hai Wan's and mine; Seems to me it is getting hard to keep track of and equip.

 

Yeah, looking at the character summary screen is that hard.

 

Oh and if a cloak did have a bonus, what would it be? +2 armor? +15 fire resistance? Hardly hard to keep track of, unless you're that scared of numbers.

 

 

 

And I did not claim that this would destroy the KOTOR feel of the game- it would change it into something else.

 

How does that not imply negative feelings towards change? In how would it change the feeling of KotOR? Did the D20 system suddenly crumble and the story got screwed because one armor slot was added? Does adding a cloak remove lightsabers?

 

 

I never said that, or implied that. I never used the term "core gameplay",

 

Look at this quote from you:

 

A few people obviously don't want this to change; it obviously has done well for the past few games, and it doesn't need to be drastically changed like this into something totally different and complex. We need "change," yeah, but not necessarily the key parts of the game.

 

As far as I know, core gameplay and key parts are pretty close in meaning.

 

and I do not have a problem with change in itself. I just have a problem with what this would change. I was not trying to "prey on feelings" again.

 

Re-read this quote:

And I did not claim that this would destroy the KOTOR feel of the game- it would change it into something else.

 

Obviously, you know the general veteran forummite consensus of keeping the feel of the game.

You know it is such a big deal for veterans. We would do a jihad against core gameplay changes.

 

Thus first, you introduce the developper time argument with TSL's unfinished story. Obviously trying to use the resentment one might feel towards it.

Then you came up with the key parts (which is pretty much core gameplay) argument so that it could stir up an anti-change sentiment.

 

Note that this is my interpretation of your words. Perhaps you did it without thinking about it, but I do believe that was the purpose of those arguments.

 

How about trying to argue with me without quoting things I never said or meant.

 

I challenge you to point out where I actually quoted something you have not posted yourself. Everything I have quoted were posted by you.

 

 

I could pretty much argue like you are: "OMG! Feelings man! You're preying on feelings!"

 

That is indeed one of my argument. It was a relatively good attempt at discrediting your own arguments, which I explained earlier in the post.

 

I'd like to repeat again, where are the right arguments against a cloak + armor option?

Overcomplexity is out of the window as a cloak would bring maybe one more stat bonus or two at most. Anyone can keep track of such a small boost and I personally don't even care if there are bonuses. I mainly want the aesthetic side of a cloak on an armor.

Developper time too. It automatically implies that they will indeed have no time, which is a rather weird assumption right now.

Changing a key part is also a non-factor, since such a addition can hardly be considered a change to a key part. It would definitely not change much, only add a greater deal of customization.

 

As a conclusion to this rather long post, I'd like to thank Hai Wan for summarizing the issues at hand.