Are Arren Kae and Kreia the same person?

[RobQel-Droma]

Yeah, it's Darth Traya.

 

How do you know what was going through Atris's mind? You can not say that it is a fact she was talking about the name "Darth Traya."

 

But the fact remains that Revan was trained by many people because he/she had many masters. Kae is not Kreia. Just like Sifo-Dyas was not Sidious or or Grievous or anybody else in the Star Wars Saga.

 

Shem. Read all of the previous posts. Several times. You don't seem to get any of this. What does the "fact that Revan was trained by many people because he/she had many masters" have anything to do with it? He was, and among those were: Kae and Kreia, which might be the same person.

 

And your comparison to Sifo-Dyas has absolutely no relevance to the discussion. Look at all the stuff I posted, and consider it all - and please have a better argument than "Kae isn't Kreia."

[Shem]

How do you know what was going through Atris's mind? You can not say that it is a fact she was talking about the name "Darth Traya."

If you want to get that direct, then consider this. There nothing that directly says that Kae is Kreia. Nothing. It's just 100% pure speculation.

 

 

 

And your comparison to Sifo-Dyas has absolutely no relevance to the discussion. Look at all the stuff I posted, and consider it all - and please have a better argument than "Kae isn't Kreia."

Actually it does. If you followed any of the speculation of what's to come in the Star Wars prequels before they were released on the different message boards around the internet, you would see that the Sifo-Dyas thing was huge. So many people claimed that Sifo-Dyas was someone else other than a Jedi Master that was killed. Sifo-Dyas ranged from Sidious because of the simularity of the names and that Sifo-Dyas' name was changed from Sidodyas. Other claimed he was Count Dooku before he left the Jedi Order. When General Grievous was introduced to be in Episode III, many claimed they were the same person. It even went as far as Sifo-Dyas being Qui-Gon Jinn. And in each case, there were a list of things that were considered evidence to support their case. It got to the point where in each case, they convinced themselves that it was a fact. I see that happening again. It won't be long for others on here that are on the boarderline will go the speculation direction as fact. And mostly they are looking for a twist, like they did in Revenge of the Sith.

 

One thing I learned is if you have to stretch and say "It could mean this, or it could mean that," 95% of the time, you are barking up the wrong tree. I made the comparison to the Sifo-Dyas thing because I see the same thing all over again. I'm willing to bet that Lucas Arts would be laughing at this right now if they saw it. Especially Mike Gallo. Another thing that Mike said before the release of TSL is that there wasn't a twist like there was in KOTOR. If Kreia was Kae, then that would be a huge twist. And if that was true, why isn't it revealed in the game? What would be the point not saying anything? There isn't is why. Logically it doesn't make sense. If anything, it ruins the story that struggled. TSL isn't as strong storyline as KOTOR is and if this twist were true, it would ruin it even more. There is no way it's going to be true.

[Char Ell]

Another thing that Mike said before the release of TSL is that there wasn't a twist like there was in KOTOR. If Kreia was Kae, then that would be a huge twist. And if that was true, why isn't it revealed in the game? What would be the point not saying anything? There isn't is why. Logically it doesn't make sense. If anything, it ruins the story that struggled.

Well, I think it's safe to say the Arren Kae/Kreia issue wouldn't be a twist for TSL as it wasn't revealed in TSL. As far as I can see there isn't any solid evidence from TSL that allows one to say for certain that Kreia and Arren Kae are one and the same. However this doesn't mean that they aren't and more about this won't come up in the next KotOR game. If anything the TSL story writers did an excellent job at leaving us hanging on this one.

 

This is similar to what the writers of KotOR did with the ghost of Ajunta Pall in his tomb on Korriban. If you talked to Ajunta Pall enough he mentions something about where the Sith Lords source of power came from but you can't persuade him to tell you any more than that. IMO the Sith's source of power wasn't Malachor V and so I think we still don't know. Whether or not the writers will address this in the next KotOR is hard to say and the same can be said for the Arren Kae/Kreia question. They could just leave us interminably wondering but I hope not.

 

We can speculate and draw conclusions but there isn't enough factual evidence to fully support a conclusion one way or the other. But as for myself, I now think there is something significant that hasn't been revealed about Kreia and Arren Kae. I don't necessarily think that it's a matter of Kreia and Arren Kae being the same person but it very well could be. I wasn't open to that possibility before this thread.

Kae was the jedi persona, Kreia, the grey persona and Traya the Darth.

Hmmm... An interesting idea this.

[RobQel-Droma]

I'm willing to bet that Lucas Arts would be laughing at this right now if they saw it. Especially Mike Gallo. Another thing that Mike said before the release of TSL is that there wasn't a twist like there was in KOTOR. If Kreia was Kae, then that would be a huge twist. And if that was true, why isn't it revealed in the game? What would be the point not saying anything? There isn't is why. Logically it doesn't make sense.

 

Or laughing at you say that, because for all we know, they might have. Why did the devs say that Arren Kae's body was never found? What was the importance of that? Why does the Jedi Council never use Kreia or Arren's name, just saying "she" and "her"? Why is Kreia greeted by the Council with "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars"?

 

As far as it not being "logical", why would Kreia ever reveal this? It may be something addressed in the next game, or maybe it was stuff that was cut, who knows?

 

It's just 100% pure speculation.

 

Wrong. This is why your Sifo-Dyas thing doesn't have any relevance. There is absolutely no evidence that might point to him being (specifically) another person. All there is is a name, and just some mystery.

 

Now for Arren and Kreia: There is similar names, there are suspicious occurences, they are never mentioned by name, etc. Much more to go on.

 

Can you find something that says Arren is NOT Kreia? No.

 

But consider this. They were both exiled Jedi Masters who trained Revan. However, as I said before, no one ever mentions their names, or if they do (like Kreia and the Disciple), you never have an instance where they are both mentioned together, teaching Revan. Arren went off with Revan to war, and died - however, no body was found. Then, Darth Traya, Lady of Betrayal, appears at the Trayus Academy. But Sion and Nihilus betray her, and she goes into Exile. She changes her name to Kreia, now a grey Jedi, which can be gotten from a combination of the Sith Traya and the Jedi Kae. Then she finds you, and is greeted with "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars?"

 

Can you find any problem with that? I doubt it, and anything you find I am willing to bet that someone could explain. But you can not prove that this twist just isn't there, unlike this, which is so strange and coincidental that it doesn't make sense for there to be nothing going on.

 

Now if you still won't believe that, and just say "It isn't there", I can't argue anymore. I'm not going to waste time debating with someone who wouldn't change their views no matter what came up, even if the thing that proved this twist came up and danced in their face.

[igyman]

OK, all of you who think Kreia is Arren should definitely go to the Sith Lords official site and under the ''game info'' section check out the ''chronicles'' subsection - I'm refering specifically to the following two:

Part XII: The Feeding of Malachor V

Part XIII: Ascension of the Sith

 

If this doesn't convince you that you are wrong, then nothing will, except for a statement from the authors of the story.

[RobQel-Droma]

I'm not quite sure what it is we are supposed to be seeing...

 

If you are talking about the thing about "Jedi Master Kreia", alright, what does that have to do with it? Ok, Arren/Kreia goes off to war, is exiled when Revan fell for her teaching corrupting Revan, then is filled with guilt about this and wanders to Malachor V and is seduced by the dark side (she is believed to be dead). She then becomes: Traya.

[igyman]

You were supposed to see that Kreia is always refered to as KREIA. There isn't a sentence in that story that says that Kreia followed Revan in the Mandalorian Wars and there isn't a sentence that calls Kreia Arren.

[RobQel-Droma]

So? Kreia is her name (and so is maybe Arren). Besides, igyman, do you really think that they would say, right in there, that Kreia is Arren? Talk about major spoilers... Besides, that fits with Kreia's story (and Kreia never refers to herself as Arren anyways).

[igyman]

First off, I salute you staying true to your original oppinion.

 

The reason I mentioned the chronicles is because I thought they'd clear up some things, obviously they don't, at least for you. I on the other hand will satisfy myself with Kreia being Kreia/Darth Traya, since the evidence I saw here wasn't enough to convince me otherwise.

[zadi]

First off, I salute you staying true to your original oppinion.

 

The reason I mentioned the chronicles is because I thought they'd clear up some things, obviously they don't, at least for you. I on the other hand will satisfy myself with Kreia being Kreia/Darth Traya, since the evidence I saw here wasn't enough to convince me otherwise.

 

Those Chronicles pretty much clear up the fact that Kreia has always been Kreia, not Kae.

 

Maybe the new comic that came out and will be coming out over the next few months will dispeal Kreia is Kae theories.

[Melly]

When Disciple and Kreia are talking aboard the Ebon Hawk when he finds out what the Exile is he says to Kreia "I know who you are, not even the markings of the darkside can hide it."

 

I don't know if that has any significance or not though.

 

(Zadi, I like you avatar. I use that head for the Exile as well)

[RobQel-Droma]

I thought about that too, but didn't know what it meant.

 

Those Chronicles pretty much clear up the fact that Kreia has always been Kreia, not Kae.

 

How do they do that? All they do is say "Kreia." Now since they pretty much tell you what Kreia tells you, don't you think that Kreia would never call herself "Arren", and always say that she is just "Kreia"? She never told you she used to be "Darth Traya". either.

 

Maybe the new comic that came out and will be coming out over the next few months will dispeal Kreia is Kae theories.

 

Or it might prove them.

[Char Ell]

JEDI MASTER KREIA, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. She is lost to the Jedi, spending the next several years on Malachor V, learning its secrets, and eventually becoming The master of the Sith academy there. Guided by Kreia's influence, Sith assassins once again begin to emerge silently from Malachor V and strike at isolated Jedi across the Republic, capturing some Jedi to turn to the dark side, and slaying those that resist. Taken to the dark side world of Malachor V to be fed to the planet's dark energies, these Jedi husks create even more assassins and DARK JEDI, feeding the planet's hunger.

It is the beginning of the Jedi's decline throughout the Galaxy. Individual Jedi begin to leave the Jedi Order, and the Jedi Watchmen of many systems, disenchanted with the endless, pointless struggles, step down and exile themselves in unknown quadrants of the galaxy, echoing the disillusionment of Jedi Master JOLEE BINDO. These are referred to by scribes of the time as the LOST JEDI. With their numbers already thinned by the war with DARTH MALAK, the Jedi Order is reduced to less than one hundred surviving Jedi Knights. As the numbers of Jedi continue to dwindle, the remaining practitioners of the light side of the Force believe the Lost Jedi to have forsaken the Order, but in fact, many of them are victims of Sith Assassins, or are being captured and imprisoned on the dark side world of MALACHOR V, waiting to be converted to the dark side of the Force. Under the watchful gaze of a corrupted Jedi KREIA, many of these Jedi die, but some are converted.

I thought it might be helpful to post the relevant parts about Kreia from the chronicles posted on the TSL website since igyman referred to them. But after having reviewed these two parts I don't see anything in them that makes me think that there is no way Kreia could be Arren Kae. Of course I still maintain my position that we can't know either way at this point in time.

[The Sith'ari]

Wow, you guys are very serious about this. Let me see...now that you started this debate, I think there's really sthg intriguing about Arren and Kreia. Also, I recall Atton said sthg like Kreia must have been beautiful when she was younger, and coincidentally, if i remember right, there's a dialogue option when the exile talked to Brianna that goes "If your face is exactly like your mother's, she must have been beautiful.", sthg like that. This of course isn't any solid evidence, but it is intend quite interesting.

[darth_traya]

This can be found in disciples dialogue file.

 

Entry 260 - Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.

Entry 261 - It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order.

And then interestingly enough Kreia does something here, using her Jedi powers or something as she is quoted ::Jedi:: in entry 263. And then Disciple says:

Entry 265 - {A little confused}I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange.

 

Entry 275 - Master Zhar taught Malak - and Revan had many masters, including Zhar, Kae, and Dorak... and towards the end of the training, Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques.

Entry 276 - As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.

 

He also says "I know who you are, not even the markings of the darkside can hide it."

 

Now Master Kae is the last master mentioned. Kreia is meant to be the first and the last of Revan's masters. This doesn't prove anything but it is worth noting.

 

Kreia doesnt want the Exile to know she was Revan's master but she is willing to tell the Exile this. The Exile must know something about Kreia & Revan that Kreia doesn't want the Exile to know.

[Shem]

Here is a quote people should read.

 

"In here, speculation quickly becomes assumption, and then assumption becomes fact, and reveals itself as disappointment when what everyone forgets began as speculation turns out to be false."

 

Until I see concrete evidence that says directly that Kae and Kreia are the same person, then they're not.

[Clone L68362]

Revanchow, you didn't need to bump this thread...

 

And Shem, no one has gone and said "No Shem! You're wrong, Kreia and Kae are the same person and that's that."

[Jediphile]

Oh dear - this topic seems to taking just the same direction that it did in the Obsidian forum. Just to clarify a few things...

 

@Shem:

 

First, there is no definite proof that Kreia is Kae. None. I've been very interested in this very topic and followed the discussions, searched the files, etc. So trust me, no concrete evidence. And I say that as someone who does think that Kreia may indeed be Kae. Okay?

 

However, I have not seen anyone here saying definitely that Kreia is Kae, though, and I certainly have not seen Cutmeister say it. I have seen him say only that Kreia being Kae is a POSSIBILITY. And I even agree with it. Because while there is indeed no proof that Kreia is Kae, there is certainly enough circumstatial evidence to make us wonder, and nobody has been able to prove that Kreia is not Kae either...

 

Consider these points (which I have stated before on the Obsidian forum):

 

1. Kreia and Kae are both jedi masters exiled from the order. Kreia says she was exiled for her dark teachings, and Kae was presumably exiled for having a child. However, the only one to ever tell us that this the reason for Kae's exile is Kreia, and she only implies it - she does not actually say outright that it's the reason (and it seems incredibly harsh to me anyway - Jolee's crime was much greater, yet he was forgiven), and you have to be very careful when it comes to these things where Kreia is concerned. Kreia's lies are always 60% truth, and her truths are always 40% lies

 

2. They both trained Revan. Kreia admits that Revan was her padawan and that he returned to her in the end. Disciple tells us that Kae trained Revan, that he was her padawan, and she is also the first master he mentions Revan training under.

 

3. Kreia and Kae both fought in the Mandalorian Wars. We know that Kae fought in it both from Mical and Brianna. She presumably died in the war on Malachor V, but her body was never recovered, even though Brianna conveniently has her robes. What? They found the robes but never the body?!? That at least raises a lot of suspicion with me as to wether Kae even died at all. Kreia, however, found the Trayus academy on Malachor V and became Darth Traya, strangely around the same time as Kae's presumed death.

 

4. IF we assume (and I note the "if") that Kreia is Kae, then she seems to have gone from a jedi master as Master Kae (light side) to a sith lord, Darth Traya (dark side), to a gray jedi (Kreia). Thus we have: K(ae)+(T)raya=Kraya=Kreia. It fits uncomfortably well, if you ask me.

 

5. "Kreia? That is not her real name", Atris says when you confront her on Telos toward the end of the game. So what is Kreia's name? Is it Darth Traya? No, I don't think so. Because in the very same conversation with Atris, you can get this response: "Atris... that is not who I am, not any longer. She has not existed for some time, I think." Now, if Atris is no longer Atris, then who is she? It seems to me that she can then be only Darth Traya. She's wrong, but she doesn't know that yet, and so it seem very odd to me for her to give that name to Kreia.

[igyman]

Oh man, not this again. I thought we agreed there is no concrete evidence and agreed to disagree. If some of you want to beleive that Kreia is Arren Kae, then so be it. We who don't have tried our best to show you why we don't and why you shouldn't beleive it so strongly. Obviously, we are all too stubborn to change our minds, so there's no point in further discussion as it can only lead to stupid unnecessary fights between us.

[Jediphile]

Huh?

 

I don't get it.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, nobody has said that Kreia is definitely Kae. At least I haven't heard anyone say so. All that has been done is to muse about the topic, which I don't see how can be cause trouble. What? We're not allowed to make observations and speculate about them?

 

I have no problem with people not believing that Kreia is Kae. I do have a problem with people saying it is not possible without bringing anything forward to support the claim. To make that claim and then scold other people for saying the opposite on the basis of observations quoted directly from the game does not seem to be a very fair basis for a discussion.

 

Besides, if people don't like to consider the idea of Kreia being Kae, then why did they click to read this topic? It's title is "Are Arren Kae and Kreia the same person?" - it's not that difficult, I think...

[igyman]

What? We're not allowed to make observations and speculate about them?

 

I didn't say that. Did I?? I'm just saying that the 'evidence' presented here haven't changed anybody's mind in any way. People who thought Kreia isn't Kae still think so and people who thought Kreia is Kae also still think so. I just don't think that further repeatition of already posted arguments will lead anywhere.

[Jediphile]

No, you didn't say that, but neither did I say you did.

 

And the topic is here for those of us who want to discuss it. If you don't, then that's fine. But it strikes me as odd that you denounce the idea of the discussion itself. Just because you're not swayed by the arguments doesn't make the discussion invalid or inappropriate, and as I've said, the topic is pretty obvious from its title. If people are not interested in it, then how difficult is to simply not click on it?

[RobQel-Droma]

I agree with Jediphile. Igyman, if you consider this discussion basically closed, with no other way to convince anybody, then... why don't you leave? Don't start telling those of us who think this plausible to stop discussing this because you don't think that "further repeatition of already posted arguments will lead anywhere."

 

No, I don't think that we agreed that there is no concrete evidence (although I would probably admit that we do not have the kind of evidence you are thinking of), and "agreed to disagree." Not that I know of. But quite simply, you don't have to click on the thread if that is the view you take. I just hope you don't consider it a crime to discuss these things. If your mind is set, then you probably don't have anything else to discuss.

[pegasus71]

well it's a debate!! debating is good it just means the plot was very well done!! Personally I think that to Kreia's mind if she really was Kae that chapter of her life is read and closed as she said. She was probably Kae or perhaps just Kreia, but for one such as myself who deeply admires Kreia's teachings she deserves to be seen for what she is now. It doesn't really matter who she was. Even if i think she was kae because she knows how and when Kae was pregnant and how she was received by Revan when she joined him. But in a dlg between Atris and Kreia in the sound files Kreia says that she order the exile of The Exile...it's inconsistant since at that time Kae was already exiled and joined the mandolarian wars... how coud kae if she is kreia order the council to exile the Exile at the end of the mandalorian wars she just fought... just weird...but whatever i'm basically contradicting myself with the beggining of my post lol

[Char Ell]

We can speculate and draw conclusions but there isn't enough factual evidence to fully support a conclusion one way or the other. But as for myself, I now think there is something significant that hasn't been revealed about Kreia and Arren Kae. I don't necessarily think that it's a matter of Kreia and Arren Kae being the same person but it very well could be. I wasn't open to that possibility before this thread.

I haven't read anything since I posted this that has swayed me from my previous stance.

 

Until I see concrete evidence that says directly that Kae and Kreia are the same person, then they're not.

But are you open to the possibility that Arren Kae and Kreia could be the same person or are you 100% convinced that they are two different people, no ifs, ands, or buts about it? Sounds like you're the latter.

 

IMO this is one of many debates where one can take five different positions.

1) Kreia and Arren Kae are not the same person.

2) Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person.

3) Undecided if Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person.

a) undecided but leaning towards (1)

b) undecided but leaning towards (2)

c) completely undecided

As for myself I'm 3b. I don't understand how anyone can be (1) or (2) if they're basing their position on the available data. All the evidence for Kreia and Arren Kae being the same person is circumstantial at best but such evidence does introduce the possibility that Kreia and Arren Kae are one and the same. However the question can't be definitively answered without further factual evidence provided by an authoritative source e.g. future KotOR game, LL authorized book, or comic series.