wedge2211 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 This was probably a good decision, given how it's relatively easy to blow up a ship with a couple bomber squadrons or other capital ships. In the full campaign, you probably won't ever launch a hit-and-run with only a few Y-Wing squads; a hit-and-run raid fleet will probably contain enough forces to destroy a few enemy ships before retreating. Instead of causing many ships damage, you destroy a few...the net effect is the same. That "giant wipeout fleet" may not incur persistent damage, but any ships lost will be remembered--imagine if the fleet encounters a dozen Y-Wing squads on each planet it visits, and loses a Victory Destroyer each time it invades. The attrition will still build up. I'm sure this won't impact the strategy or enjoyment in the full game. Darth_Torpid, thanks very much for your continued involvement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slocket Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 I use my Fleet of Doom backed up with a 'supply fleet' right behind it to replenish any loss. Blitzkrieg used in WWII, the more planets I quickly grab, more money, snow ball effect. The other player has no chance to ever recovered. My supply is not stretched out since I am slamming the planets with troops for more income as I go (Galactic Time is stopped and you get a bonus income for taking a planet pays for itself). Plus as the Empire, my Tie fighters and Bombers are free and respawn too. Then you get this message "Player left game". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelknight Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 Could we not make an option that would turn repair on and off? Is this even doable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evenflow80 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 The Big Fleet of Doom tactic won't work unless you're opponent is, well, clinically dead. By the time you can get enough rescources, planets, and whatnot to build a sizable fleet, it will be pretty late on in the game, and, like I said, technically speaking your opponent should have just as many ships as you do by that point, unless he fell dead while playing early on in the game. Yeah, I'm one of those anal people that like to move my ships around and send them back for repairs, monitor thier status, plan ahead for what I'll do with them or where I'll send them when they're repaired, etc, but I can live without it really. I've had my share of that in Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelknight Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 THeres no thought into the effects the battle will have. I might win the battle, but half of my ships are beat to crap and back. NOpe not now, I won therefore my fleet is New and unused. Just does not make since to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedge2211 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Not necessarily new and unused, but repaired...think of the Millennium Falcon in The Empire Strikes Back. It kept running into Imperial Forces, barely escaping, they'd head back to the engine compartments and fix stuff, encounter Imperial forces again, etc. Think of it as your crew jerry-rigging fixes to the problems that come up on board. After all, in the galactic map, technically time is elapsing at a very fast rate, so there would be a chance for the enemy to repair their damage while you put together another attack fleet. Let the game play a little bit--the full game, not a hack of the demo--and see if this really is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orao Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Hey Wedge just forget about Lucas's point of view and think in terms of RL. The big ship gets holes in her's hull during the battle. If there is no dry dock there is no way to repair them. We are talking here about ships which are as large as 7 km. How are you supposed to make repairs right in combat, it has no sens ? Another thing which is missing is the crew. The ship is only as good as its crew is. However we have no crew managing here. But that isn't the point of all this. You were talking about not being able to make large fleets of DOOM, well those fleets will happen no matter how hard you tried to balance the game those tactis are happening unless you implement some things from real life. Yeah I know you need ground forces to conquer the planet but you can also build large invasion army which supposely will let all yours other planets unprotected with the pop cap system. Ok let's discuss about this matter in terms of pop cap. This system is double edged system. More planets you take from the ennemy and less units he will be able to build and more planets you conquer more units you will be able to support. Now all you have to do is to conquer the planet.The planet which just have been conquered will be able to build it own units to assure self protection. Because no minimum military presence is needed to assure the loyalty of the planet the attacking player will be able to take all ground forces for its next move before the planet has finished the building of its own units. Attacked player dosen't have time to reorganize and to launche the counter-offensive. No ,all he can do is to hope that he will be able to counter attack somewhere else and to reastablish its initial pop cap. This can be called the gras hopper technic and it will be so devastating that at the end you will see ppl rushing like crazy in MP. And just to awnser to Darth_Torpid-PG : I don't consider my self as a hard dying strategy player but some minimum things should be there. We got the problem with repairs atm. I beleive that you did all your best as well as the dev team in general to balance this game but some things are just natural. After battle ressuplying and reparations are needed. This is not complicating the game at all since this can be automated by the game it self. All the non instant repair system is doing is preventing the attacking player from rushing from one planet to another while giving a chance to the attacked player to reorganize. @popcorn2008 Well I wasn't talking about the maintenance cost just about repairs. P.S. I'll still buy this game even if I'm buying it with the greatest fears about its gameplay in MP. I'm buying it to support the dev team because they showed us that they communicate with their customers and because they appear to support the game. It's a very very rare thing those days. I can only hope that mods will make this game more suitable for my kind of game style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkodeon Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Hey Wedge just forget about Lucas's point of view and think in terms of RL. The big ship gets holes in her's hull during the battle. If there is no dry dock there is no way to repair them. We are talking here about ships which are as large as 7 km. How are you supposed to make repairs right in combat, it has no sens ? Since when did Imperator/Imperial's become 7 kilometers long? Sorry, I'm from Canada, and that seems a TAD too large to be a Star Destroyer, quite argueably the largest ship in Empire At War. (Length Wise.) You were talking about not being able to make large fleets of DOOM, well those fleets will happen no matter how hard you tried to balance the game those tactis are happening unless you implement some things from real life. This is for the arguement (Don't know who made it,) about the hit-and-run tactics used by Fighters or similar: And there have been many a time where I took a fleet of Xwings, Ywings, and Awings into an Enemy Space area, and came out the victor. Just because they have corvettes doesn't mean they are impervious to proton bombs. Splitting your Y-Wings into two groups (Capital-based and Corvette-based) will allow you to maximize your attack, and having the Xwings and Awings provide cover. It may not be doable in the Full game, but it is now. Capital ships are usually my last wave if I cannot get through the defenses. Also, this is not the real world. It's Star Wars, and the entire Galaxy has a population of like... Trillions. Coruscant's population dwarfs Earth's by many times. It's impossible to not use big fleet tactics, since the Empire has that capability. Remember, you are in control of what the Empire does, not the History of Star Wars. -arkodeon P.S. Darth Torpid: Love the engine. Even though repair was not doable, there may be a way for the modding community to figure it out. Is there any chance that, similar to the Venator and the V-Wings, that you will be able to include the repair code in a "Do Not Use" folder, or similar, so that the modding community may 'tinker' with it. Oh yeah, GREAT Venator models, btw. LITTLE OFFTOPIC, but whatever. (Venator = <3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Raven Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 To be honest I'm not too bothered whether ships instant repair or not. Although I can understand people finding it annoying that this is the case I find it quite sad that people are actualy thinking about not buying the game just because of little things like certain ships not being included and instant repair being put in. I think this is going to be a great game in the end and a game which combines space battles and ground assault is something I have wanted for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orao Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 If it's all you wanted then I can may be send you my copies of Imperium Galactica 1 and 2. It's the concept which was implemented back in 1995. Just for note. As I said in my PS I'll buy this game despite reparing system not being implemented. @Akodeon From star wars wikipedia All Imperial-class variants are said to be 1,600 meters long (approximately one mile), with three large, and four small engines capable of accelerating the ship with a force of several thousand g and a hyperdrive capable of carrying them across the galaxy in a matter of weeks. Imperial-class Star Destroyers have a complement of at least 37,000 officers and crew.[/Quote] So making repairs on 1 mile long hull during battle is something doable in your eyes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Raven Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 I didn't mean to target you in particular Orao I was just saying that I get the feeling that people are going off the game over things which I personaly don't think will effect it too much but of course I respect everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelknight Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 Oh well this just answered some of my questions. I run a mens dorm for a college. There were 17 of us that were die-hard on getting the game....until I announced this last night with all of them. 17.....2 are still die hard and the rest are debating now that the fleet of doom idea has made us wander..... were looking at the idea of trying to MOD damage into the game. One of my guys even tried the fleet of doom idea on a modded version with it on hard and it worked. Rebellion took it too far and This seems to not take it far enough......myself? I canceled my preorder until I make a decision when the game is released next week. I know that sounds harsh, but thats alot of cash with a baby on the way and a mailbox full of bills for a game I seriously see me getting mad at and not playing. Rebel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmendduke55555 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 To me, the best option is relatively fast repair (since you do have lots of crew...) or make another unit group that you must put on whatever spacecraft that repaires that specific spacecraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slocket Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 In the demo, notice there is a negative cash flow for a few seconds called "rehabilitation fund". This can be exploited plus others that will actually make the gameplay much more fun for all. The way the game is now, it is a "Saddle Point" situation for all you math savy folks. Once one said gets the edge, the ball rolls down hill in his favor. The winner gets extra income for the planet, plus an extra population total point, deny both form the losing side. It will snow ball quickly into a complete rush. I think to give the losing player a chance and stop the snow ball giant fleet, make them have a maintenance cost to keep ALL units space and ground, plus undeveloped planets in hold. Thus it would take alot of money for the winning team to hold onto such a huge hold on the galaxy; meaning the losing player can actually fight back (this is called negative feedback in engineering). Instead of when you conquer a planet and get 'paid' a bonus for it - make it cost you money to represent the choas of converting the indeginious people. Plus make the planet produce negative cash for you until it is developed with mining and buildings (this represents employment and wealth for the people). I do not know though how to make a maintenance cost for space and ground units; but I can do the planets easy enough. This would help slow down a planet grabbing rush. I think maintentance cost should have been included to counter balance the saddle point snowball effect of a galactic rush. If a wining team has 60% of the galaxy, you are pretty much going to lose unless you do this. Of course certain planets have strategic bonus and there are choke points etc. So once the full real game is out (not the demo) if Rushing is a problem, there is some thing we can do to stop it (if it really is a problem). Else, people are just going to quit the game if your in MP once they start losing. Single player is no problem, the AI is never smart as a human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capstani Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 The is a line in each capital ship's files... ie. from the Calamari cruiser's: <Maintenance_Cost>0.3</Maintenance_Cost> So there is a maintenence cost, it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slocket Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Interesting indeed...but does it work? I never notice anything in the game demo -as if it is disabled/ignored by the game EXE. I think they were to have a maintenence cost, then it was disabled for the time being? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orao Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 No tehy said that they experimented with the maintaince cost ant persistant dammage but that they abandoned idea since it ws too "confusing". For whom ? I have no idea. Anyway if you want it to work the exe should be recompiled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athanasios Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 ...and recompiling an .exe file stands for hacking the game, since this is what is done in most "no-cd" cracks... If something is not included in the game code, then it's quite difficult to implement it. You must link many libraries,xmls and meg files to make it work. On the contrary, if it is included in the game code but it's just disabled, it's a matter of seconds to enable it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orao Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Yes I know. But with mod tools may be we will be able to add maintance cost/repair time ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelknight Posted February 8, 2006 Author Share Posted February 8, 2006 I wander how you can't come out with a persistant damage system that dosn't confuss people and isn't too hard to understand. There where alot of ideas thrown in that seemed easy enough for a 2 yearold to understand. Makes me wander who they tested this on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkodeon Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 If it's all you wanted then I can may be send you my copies of Imperium Galactica 1 and 2. It's the concept which was implemented back in 1995. Just for note. As I said in my PS I'll buy this game despite reparing system not being implemented. @Akodeon From star wars wikipedia So making repairs on 1 mile long hull during battle is something doable in your eyes ? Remember, this is the STAR WARS universe. They built the Death Star 2, which is (either 160 KM in DIAMETER, or 900 KM in Diameter, whichever measurement still proves the point) in 4 Years after the destruction of the first one. I do not see why they cannot repair damaged Star Destroyers within one day. Notice I said "Repair," not "Build." Repairing would be just a matter of replacing new parts with old. Also, the damage that the Star Destroyers sustain are unbelieveable, visual representations to convey destruction. If one Turbolaser battery were to be destroyed, it isn't as though the whole left side would buckle and break off. That said, if the fleet that was sent in moderately damaged your defenses, but you defeated them, then it can stand to reason that they won't be coming back any time soon. And I don't get why you said 'during battle.' Repair takes place after, not during. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orao Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Of course they will be able to do it assuming that they have all spare parts and armor plates which is unlikely. I love science-fiction but sometimes at least IMO we need just a litle bit of reallity there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athanasios Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Yep, just check the Reality VS Gameplay poll i posted the other day... To conclude this discussion and to preserve future lack-of-realism threads, i think i found the problem with EaW... In many reviews, the devs say: "Empire at War is all about battles...". Well, what i see so far is that either the devs or the testers fell in the mistake that now EaW is only about battles, which makes the game freaking simplified. As i said, the Galactic Map seems to stand only for moving forces here and there. I see this from the demo, and it's done in the final version.......only moving forces and battles, i don't like it, but it's the only game out there that has space and ground battles. It could have more depth, more micromanagement if your want (micro...heh...), some diplomacy. It's dumbed down to only battles. And what i see, no offence taken, but against all those proposed features we get the same answer "tested and disspproved, due to confusing people"......i mean, because someone does play the game while others dont, this doesnt necesseraly means that he has the best opinion about the game, it's just another biased opinion afterall subtle to his taste. As for the fleet of doom, in the MP will be true, as happens to all the other games. In single player campaigns, with few planets, it will still be true. In the 40 campaign probably not. Because we all talk on hypothesis, i'll just check this "tactic" (exploit is the right word) and confirm... If the defender (generally the player losing) has no planetary defences and a good bunch of forces guarding it, he's doomed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkodeon Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Of course they will be able to do it assuming that they have all spare parts and armor plates which is unlikely. I love science-fiction but sometimes at least IMO we need just a litle bit of reallity there. We are talking about planets which PRODUCE Starships. There isn't a way to build ships without 'parts.' While that poses a little problem with the Imperial Star Destroyer, as it is only built on four planets, it is safe to assume that they use generic Turbo lasers, etc. And remember, ALL planets are capable of produce starships. EDIT: And this picture makes me curious. http://outpost.cnc-hq.de/TRIALS/DonBilbo/EaWHQ/EaWFR/8.2.06/pic3.jpg See the damaged Mon Calamari cruiser inside that wireframe thing? It's either being built, or I don't know what. Kinda makes you wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athanasios Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 And remember, ALL planets are capable of produce starships. Ships are in cinjuction with the tech level of the space station; tech 1 station, fighters, tech 4, big fighters. From this aspect, you must pay 3-4000 bucks for a high-tech station and to "logically" get your missing parts in your ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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