Darth Vader - Why the hell is he in a Tie

[Astrotoy7]

From a forum moderator of a corporate-owned site, I'm surprised at the offensiveness of this offhand remark. It's especially galling since I'm quite likely older than you are and have probably seen the movies more times than you have.

 

lmao... corporate owned... are you kidding !!! That means Ive been here 4 years and still havent received a paycheck !!!

 

LFN has no official affiliation with Lucasfilm or its subsidiaries. Some mods/admins have ties with Lucasarts, Im very handsome, and that's about it..

 

Doesnt matter how many times you've seen the films Tal, there's no point in taking offense when LIAYD is simply stating facts. For someone who has seen the film so many times, quoting Vaders flagship as the Accuser and ascribing him the role of Fleet Commander(when clearly the Admirals were performing this role) is just not factual according to any source(see links in my above post - which include official references) The Fleet Admiral was serving The Emperor with Vader on board to see things through... here's a quote:

 

"Asteroids do not concern me Admiral"

 

A Fleet Commander would be thinking of his ships and crew first, and would not make such a comment. Vader was hell bent on capturing the "Son of Skywalker" as he and Sidious knew that if he became a jedi then he could mean their end.

 

mtfbwya

[Tal Odo-ki]

LIAYD, I think you misunderstood what Tal was saying in that quote. That was not a question he needed answered.

Thank you. That'll teach me to ask rhetorical questions around here.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Doesnt matter how many times you've seen the films Tal, there's no point in taking offense when LIAYD is simply stating facts. For someone who has seen the film so many times, quoting Vaders flagship as the Accuser and ascribing him the role of Fleet Commander(when clearly the Admirals were performing this role) is just not factual according to any source(see links in my above post - which include official references) The Fleet Admiral was serving The Emperor with Vader on board to see things through... here's a quote:

 

"Asteroids do not concern me Admiral"

 

A Fleet Commander would be thinking of his ships and crew first, and would not make such a comment. Vader was hell bent on capturing the "Son of Skywalker" as he and Sidious knew that if he became a jedi then he could mean their end.

First, in ep4 Vader was in the Devastator, not the Accuser. Both the Accuser and the Devastator were later part of the so-called Imperial Death Squadron commanded by Vader from the Executor in ep5.

 

It might interest you to know that after ep5, Vader returned to Coruscant aboard his flagship, the Executor, and Admiral Piett transferred to the Accuser and remained at Bespin. Want to take one guess as to who out-ranks whom, or who was in charge of the Imperial Squadron? (hint: he's tall and wears a black cape and helmet)

 

Here's another rhetorical question: do you honestly believe that Grand Moff Tarkin was not in charge of the Death Star? That High General Cassio Tagge, the senior military officer, was? The relationship between Tarkin vs. Tagge commanding the DS is the same as for Vader vs. Piett.

[Renown]

Umm - Just because Vader said Asteroids do not concern me, does not in any way mean that he was not the fleet commander? Who in the hell are you kidding?

 

It was his responsibility to get his job done, no questions asked, he doesn't forgive failure, as the Emperor would not forgive his. Its called "At All Costs" pfff.. what a ridiculous argument if I've ever heard one.

[Jan Gaarni]

The Fleet Admiral was Piett. Look at his badge and you will clearly see that.

 

Vader holds no military rank.

He's the envoy of the Emperor, and with that holds alot of power and control.

 

But for this game, his best skills are best served in the TIE Advanced, as other characters can fill the other roles.

[Admiral Raven]

In my mind there is no doubt about the fact that Vader was in command of a fleet of ships. Just because he didn't give every little order doesn't mean he isn't in command. As me and Renown have both said it is the way that fleet structures works, Vader, being in overall command says what he wants and it is up to his minions and other officers to make sure it happens. He is telling Admirals what to do in his fleet which to me certainly shows that he is commanding the fleet. For example, I am sure at one point he says something like "prepare the fleet for hyperspace". He also refers to the Executor as his ship which implies he is in command of it.

 

I still think he should be in his TIE but the argument of him never being in command of a fleet just doesn't work for me.

[jedi3112]

Apart from that Vader doesn't hold any military rank, you should also consider the character of Vader. Vader isn't the kind of commander that doesn't come of his ship. Vader leads by example, meaning that he goes in first. Since it would be silly to have an entire fleet of TIEs hanging behind his stardestoyer they had to put him in a TIE. Vader is like the medieval kings, riding into battle himself. Instead of the modern cowards staying behind and letting others do the fighting. Vader should be spearheading the attack, not follow and support the fleet.

[Renown]

Lol - I love that jedi, Modern cowards? Staying behind and letting others fight.. You've obviously never taken a military history course.

 

Or, are aware of the difference between an army and a fleet.

 

Nelson is a commander that led by example... umm, but wait, he stayed on his ship?! 0.o Does this mean that he is a coward? I don't think so.

 

Vader knew his importance relied on his surviving. Can any of you imagine Vader flying in the Battle of Endor (assuming he was present on a starship)? No - There would have been way too many chances he could die. The differences between Anakin and Vader are great. Anakin was a single jedi knight, Vader was the representative, and image of the Emperor.

 

His whole purpose was to show "Looky, that amazingly powerful bastard bows to the Emperor, I think we should do the same". (Thats rather simplified a bit, but is by far the most predominate of the reasons of his 'loose command')

 

Vader should be in a tie in select battles, against Luke or the Falcon even maybe. But During the battle of hoth, and chasing down the falcon.. did we see him get in a fighter and follow the falcon? I don't think so folks.

 

 

One other important thing I should mention. I don't care about game balance, never had, never will, not when it is me playing a single player game.

 

I care about realism. - One reason why i love some of the mods for Rome Total War. I'm a historian, and a student, show me the facts, not a bunch of "I feel this is better". I can willingly admit that Vader did fight in his Tie, but not all the time, at all the battles he was present at.

[lukeiamyourdad]

One other important thing I should mention. I don't care about game balance, never had, never will, not when it is me playing a single player game.

 

Sadly, the whole universe does not resolve around Single player and most people actually do care about game balance even in SP.

 

I care about realism. - One reason why i love some of the mods for Rome Total War. I'm a historian, and a student, show me the facts, not a bunch of "I feel this is better". I can willingly admit that Vader did fight in his Tie, but not all the time, at all the battles he was present at.

 

Everybody cares about realism. However, there are things that need to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay. A 100% realistic game would generally throw off the majority of people. Which is why R:TW was not entirely realistic.

 

Remember that this is Star Wars: Empire At War, not Star Wars: A history lesson about the famous franchise's characters and their roles. It's a game, there are things you must sacrifice for a game.

 

Pro-ISD people keep going over this fact. No one has even countered the argument that Vader is linked to his Tie in the majority's mind thus why, sales-wise he needs to be in his Tie AdvancedX1. Everyone talks about Star Wars history. True, you need accuracy to the source material and it is debatable. What isn't debatable is the popular image of Vader in his Tie.

Petroglyph is making a game here folks. A video-game, not a history book.

[Darth_Terros]

blah blah blah

 

Thing is you obviously dont know any thing about Vader.

 

He will go out in his own personal fighter every chance he gets! you really cant compare him to historical commaders either seeing as non of them where Sith lords and none of them used to be Anakin Skywalker the greatest pilot in the galaxy.

 

It might not make sense to you but its what vader does get over it he likes to personally be in amongst battles its the rage of battle that brings him closer to the darkside which ultimatly eases the pain of being in that suit and lets not forget he loves flying and like i said earlier in the thread its the only time he doesnt feel confined by his suit.

[Hobbie911]

Thing is you obviously dont know any thing about Vader.

 

He will go out in his own personal fighter every chance he gets! you really cant compare him to historical commaders either seeing as non of them where Sith lords and none of them used to be Anakin Skywalker the greatest pilot in the galaxy.

 

It might not make sense to you but its what vader does get over it he likes to personally be in amongst battles its the rage of battle that brings him closer to the darkside which ultimatly eases the pain of being in that suit and lets not forget he loves flying and like i said earlier in the thread its the only time he doesnt feel confined by his suit.

 

Not very eloquent, but true nonetheless. Renown seems incapable of grasping Vader's character. He may be the enforcer of the Emperor, but he is also someone who prefers carrying out his duties personally--it's part of his emotional characteristics.

 

I love how Renown skipped over the last post on the first page depicting Vader in an Actis Interceptor hunting down the fledgling Rebellion prior to Episode IV (which just so happens to be in the same time frame as this game).

 

Darth Vader is an enforcer. The tools that he chooses in order to enforce the Emperor's Will are varied and take many forms. The TIE Advanced and pilots of Black Squadron happen to be the tool with which Lord Vader is using during this time frame.

 

It makes sense. Deal with it, Renown. No one agrees with you.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Seriously guys, we need to cool it down a bit, no need to insult Renown for his opinions.

[swphreak]

I don't particularily imagine Darth Vader hopping into a starfighter every chance he gets. Perhaps it's a sign of getting older or something. Anakin Skywalker would have surely jumped at any chance, but Vader is more reserved.

 

BUT, for the sake of balance, I can see them putting in an anti-Red Squadron int he game.

 

 

FYI, LucasForums is not a corporate-owned site... unless I missed a memo.

[Renown]

Basically again, I see a whole bunch of people who see Vader as an enforcer, I don't see him that way. According to the OT, he was the Emperors right hand, and in a position of power. Dealing soley with those facts, and the facts presented by the film, he deserves to be in a SD. - So far the best argument here has been, Vader sells when he is in a Tie. I understand that.

 

And for the record- why can't Vader be compared to say, a real life historical fleet commander? They had the same objectives, same resources to pull from, same motivation, and they certainly had charismatic similarities (in some cases).

 

Vader's character, well lets see. He is a man who doesn't like failure, but admires success (even amongst his enemies). He is a man driven by the need to serve his emperor, as he has no chance of overthrowing him, himself. He uses tactics, and understanding to defeat his enemies (force ability modifies his understanding - to a sense of foresight). He was a man of deepset emotion, who became devoid, and an autonom defeated by his own desires.

 

Yet, even in his most bleakest of moments, he shows compassion and understanding (though manipulated to evil ends in most circumstances).

 

His goal, the destruction of the rebellion, then? We would not of known, but Vader had no inner goals of his own. They were quenched, and destroyed before the OT timeframe. They only begin to reemerge when his son is shown to him.

 

To this end he utilizes any resources under his command to their greatest effect. He no more would step into a fighter, when his presence could continue to make his flagship perform that much better, then he would willingly submit defeat.

 

He did not jump into his ship during the falcons flight at Hoth, because he knew he could motivate the ships, and men under his command much more efficiently, then he could if he jumped and flew off after the falcon. Not even Vader wanted to risk flying in there, he'd send other men - but the chances of his death, even with the force aiding him would have been too severe. Thus he stayed aboard a ship - that albeit it would take a beating, could still pursue the falcon.

 

He attacked the rebels in the trench, because he was not in overall command at the Death Star. Tarkin was, Vader was merely his assistant there (and still proving his abilities to the Emperor), and additionally, he was not facing a severe threat. They were facing a few mere squadrons of fighters. Not a rebel fleet. He recognized the danger, and went to prevent the rebels from succeeding in their mission.

 

Note - he did not attack the rebels outside of the trench, only the ones who proceeded on their bombing run.

 

That does not sound like an emotional driven hasty character to me, that sounds like one who put the best tool to use, that he had.

 

Had the main threat to the Death Star, been from some capital ship, I assure you, he never would have left. (Though thats an IF, and ifs are always.. iffy =)

 

So please spare me your insults upon my intelligence, or perceptiveness, because I assure you, I've got both! One other thing.. the brilliant thing about having my beliefs, is I do not need anyone to agree with me. Please remember - my initial focus on this entire thread was to seek assistance in modifying the game. Hence why I posted this there. I shall never forgive the admin that moved it.

[Heavyarms]

Okay, Vader's Palpatine's apprentice. He doesn't really sit there and command a ship on the bridge as a tactician would. Never saw it happen. I honestly think that is because Vader isn't very smart. I don't think in any of the six movies he really uses his brain at all, besides MAYBE the trap on Cloud City. Brash, fast-acting, and pretty obvious most times. Seems more like a simple pawn then a true leader. He has no leadership qualities at all besides fear. No one usually gets an army to listen to him on fear. Just doesn't happen.

[Jan Gaarni]

I would imagine the fear of losing your life just by being looked at by Vader would motivate just about anyone if you ask me, Heavyarms.

 

Gives the term "If eyes could kill" a whole new meaning.

Because in his case, it can.

 

I'm getting alitte tired of reading "You must be this and that" parts of an arguement. Can we please refrain from using it!

[Heavyarms]

I would imagine the fear of losing your life just by being looked at by Vader would motivate just about anyone if you ask me, Heavyarms.

 

Gives the term "If eyes could kill" a whole new meaning.

Because in his case, it can.

 

 

I guess so... but if he was abusive enough most officers and soldiers would mutiny and attack. And even though Vader's strong, he'd probably be killed. I realize I'm right now toying a ton with the suspension of disbelief here, but honestly... fear only works so well before the entire crew would mutiny after they got sick of your crap and you were killing people left and right.

[Darth_Terros]

I guess so... but if he was abusive enough most officers and soldiers would mutiny and attack. And even though Vader's strong, he'd probably be killed. I realize I'm right now toying a ton with the suspension of disbelief here, but honestly... fear only works so well before the entire crew would mutiny after they got sick of your crap and you were killing people left and right.

 

In the Comics there was actually a mutiny plot against vader.

 

It failed.

[Jan Gaarni]

In the Comics there was actually a mutiny plot against vader.

 

It failed.

And the Captain - or Admiral, I forget - paid dearly for it.

 

Anyway, yes, you are right, HeavyArms.

 

But most officers in the military believe in the New Order, and understand it when they fail. They arn't just driven by fear.

[Foshjedi2004]

Has Anyone actually read Shadows of the Emperor?? Even when he was on the Executor he went out in his fighter....

[†Saint_Killa†]

I still wish Vader is on a Executor class ship. Game balance might be a small problem they just have to make it weak vs. bombers and still have the same hardpoints for other ships.....

 

Hahaha no executors for this game. It's like as long as 8 or whatever Imperial Star Destroyers. It might even eat the whole map. So game balance will be a big problem if they put my sig in the game It would just be overkill!!!!

[wedge2211]

Tal, you were the one who said Vader's flagship was the Accuser in the first place!

 

Likening Vader to Nelson or any other fleet admiral is a bit flawed, since he was not part of the military command structure. The Sith held themselves outside of normal military and political channels. He wasn't so much the fleet commander as he was the high priest, coming up with directives from the Emperor to give to the admirals. Similarly, Tarkin was the governor of a territory, not the commander of the Death Star--but, of course, under the Empire, governors were not the separate civilian officials we know in America, so he was able to order around the Death Star commander (and even Vader himself).

 

Vader's association with the TIE/A goes beyond sales--that's just how people see Vader, that's how they expect him. It's part of his whole persona.

 

If the Executor is put in-game in an expansion or mod, it would probably be best to implement it on its own "plane" in the 2.5D space--like the Death Star. Players wouldn't be able to control it, since it's so big that would be unwieldy. It would just "be there," launching laser barrages. The counter, of course, would be Ackbar's special ability.

[Spiralarchitech]

If you look at the comand structure of the empire in the starwars films its plain to see that lucas based a lot of his ideas around the third reich (no offense to anyone just a comparison)

 

For example the emperor is like a hitler type character, a leader whose rule is absolute, vader would be like joseph gobbels.

 

Now a lot of people would argue that himmler was second in command in the reich but if you examine the relationships between hitler, himmler and gobbels it is plain to see that even though gobbels was basically propaganda minister with no rank as such he had the ear of hitler and with that came power.

 

Himmler had the rank (well head of the ss) and also considerable power (we will call him tarkin) and in most case would have over ruled gobbels on most subjects, but only if it was in the best interest of hitler if it wasn't i dare say gobbels would have exercised his clout with hitler and himmler would have got a slap on the wrist.

 

The same way of tarkin was getting lippy to vader, rank or no rank vader is a sith lord and would slap old tarkin around and i bet the emperor would not bat an eye lid.

[PR-0927]

Darth Vader, according to numerous novels, tends to dislike standing on the bridge of any ship, because he feels helpless. Well, that was Anakin, but he probably felt the same way about that. He wants to take action into his own hands.

 

And Darth Vader had a ship named Exactor, which was a brand-new type of ship in the Star Wars: Dark Lord- The Rise of Darth Vader book, the Imperial-class Star Destroyer. It was the precursor to his Executor.

 

- Majin Revan