Darth Manus Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 The gaming industry seems to be all about profit. The tendency is for consoles to be ridiculously overpriced, until the next generation systems set in. Then the "old" consoles' value drops, and the new ones are even more expensive. Therefore, it is understandable if some fans feel outraged when they hear they will have to spend a fortune on a new console if they want to play the next installment of a good series of games. After all, regardless of the amount of money people have or not, it is probably infuriating to be forced to buy a console as expensive as a brand new laptop every handful of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 The gaming industry seems to be all about profit. Uh, every industry is all about profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMaster12 Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Prime's right. In a nutshell the goal of a captialist is to maximize profits. I may be naive in economics but that is how someone worded it and I find some truth to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Manus Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Of course, but if there's something that gaming companies should learn once and for all is that building a bad reputation with the gamer community isn't exactly good for business. If they keep making unpopular decisions, such as rushing games, releasing them incomplete and with bugs, or making them only for one single overpriced gaming platform, then chances are, people will get tired of their attitude and stop buying their products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igyman Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 That's a little far fetched, don't you think? Whatever they do, their products will still be sold. Why? Because people have no idea if a game has bugs, or is incomplete, etc, until they buy and play the game. We all know that every once in a while they'll rush a game because the fans want it really bad, so the companies get a little greedy and decide they want to grab a bunch of money as soon as possible. Now, some of them will be somewhat fair, or should I say smart, and release a patch very quickly, so the sale of their product doesn't decrease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playloud Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 How much extra does it really cost to make a PC version of an Xbox 360 game? Â How much money do they make per sale of the said PC game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Manus Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Well, a good game shouldn't need patches, which are basically corrections for issues that should have been fixed before release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Well, a good game shouldn't need patches, which are basically corrections for issues that should have been fixed before release. That's a nice sentiment, unfortunately everyone doesn't have the same excact PC and hardware/software/driver setups, if they did then we wouldn't need any patches as things can be easily tested. Patches are a neccisary evil because of the variances in peoples PC's. Â Now if you are talking console games then I agree they should never be allowed to ship with bugs or glitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Char Ell Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 How much extra does it really cost to make a PC version of an Xbox 360 game? How much money do they make per sale of the said PC game? Excellent questions. Unfortunately, you need someone that has access to the game developers' books to get your answers. >_> <_< Anyone? Bueller?  Since I don't see anybody that has that has inside access to game company financials I venture to guess that you would find the answer isn't the same for every game. Some games cost more to make than others. It is important to remember that the game industry is breaking new ground with the introduction of multi-threaded programming for games being forced on them by next-gen consoles like the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3. Game developers know that it will cost more to design games for these next-gen consoles and I think they're just getting the feel for how much more. Many developers are already moving the traditional initial price point of $50USD for a game up to $60USD to account for these extra costs. The process of porting an Xbox 360 game to PC will also be substantially different than for Playstation 3 therefore the costs involved will differ.  So how much will it cost to port an Xbox 360 game to PC? An accurate answer would only be available from video game companies and possibly industry analysts. How much money do they make per sale of the said PC game? (Unit price * total units sold) - Cost to produce and market the game/total units sold = profit per unit. Unless you have numbers to plug in to the equation that's about the best you can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Manus Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 I still remember the massive slowdowns in the first KOTOR before the patch came out. Urgh... now that was infuriating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChAiNz.2da Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 I still remember the massive slowdowns in the first KOTOR before the patch came out. Urgh... now that was infuriating. Definitely, and that's a point that few people realize today when griping about TSL... Â It took a total of 3 patches before KotOR was 'perfect'.. it's unfortunate that alot of ppl forget that little tid-bit when comparing the 2... Â I will say however.. at least Bioware did release patches as it seems getting anything else for TSL is an uphill battle.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerowars617 Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Then again, it took EA a while to realease another patch for Zero Hour. IIRC, they released 1 or 2 patches, waited a really long time, then released another few patches. Maybe Obsidian can learn a few lessons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Of course, but if there's something that gaming companies should learn once and for all is that building a bad reputation with the gamer community isn't exactly good for business. If they keep making unpopular decisions, such as rushing games, releasing them incomplete and with bugs, or making them only for one single overpriced gaming platform, then chances are, people will get tired of their attitude and stop buying their products.Sure. But when do you think people will stop buying Star Wars games? Especially ones that, dispite complaints about various issues, are critically acclaimed and huge sellers... How much extra does it really cost to make a PC version of an Xbox 360 game?Only the developers know for sure. But in my experience porting code from one known platforms to multiple less know platforms requires a fair amount of effort (read money). Developing for the 360 only means that the devs know exactly what the hardware does and most of the issues involved. Moving that to PC (which is a generic term refering to unlimited configurations) is hampered by the fact that there are many more unknowns involved since you can never test all possible customer configurations. So the cost is really up to the devs. Either they spend lots of many to try and detect more bugs from more systems, or spend less and have many bugs pop up. In any event, it can be expensive. How much money do they make per sale of the said PC game? Not much. The cost of developing software of such complexity is in the millions, which means that there has to be a lot of units sold to recoup that cost and make any kind of profit. For the vast majority of games the profit is slim to nil. Well, a good game shouldn't need patches, which are basically corrections for issues that should have been fixed before release.In a perfect world. The fact of the matter is, for such complex software it is impossible to test for all issues, and as such there will always, and I mean always, be bugs that make it into the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Manus Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Well, at least they didn't do like Interplay did with the Fallout games. They both had annoying bugs, and I believe that they just made a couple of patches for each game. After that, it's as if they just gave up, because the fans had to correct the remanining bugs on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz1978 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 That's a nice sentiment, unfortunately everyone doesn't have the same excact PC and hardware/software/driver setups, if they did then we wouldn't need any patches as things can be easily tested. Patches are a neccisary evil because of the variances in peoples PC's. Â Then why are some companies capable to deliver PC-games that are virtually bug-free and others aren't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChAiNz.2da Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Then why are some companies capable to deliver PC-games that are virtually bug-free and others aren't? I have yet to own an RPG game (a reputable one that is) that hasn't offered a patch/fix (or TEN, such as Blizzard's Diablo II)... Â The games that do not offer patches, are perhaps either rare.. or simple & plainly, just not that involved of a game anyways... Â RPG's on the other hand are bound to have a glitch or two just because of the sheer depth of the game(s) and the contant globals and variables that have to be tracked... Â Simple games like "pac-man" obviously don't need a patch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz1978 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 RPG's on the other hand are bound to have a glitch or two just because of the sheer depth of the game(s) and the contant globals and variables that have to be tracked... Now you're talking about scripting and that shouldn't be affected by the hardware - unless the devs do something really stupid. If you take that out there's really no big difference if you got to port a RPG to PC or any other game. Take GTA SA for example - it comes from the PS2, so the step to the PC is even bigger than from Xbox to PC and I hardly see any similarities to PacMan... Â A rare example yes, but it proves that it is possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerowars617 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Well, at least they didn't do like Interplay did with the Fallout games. They both had annoying bugs, and I believe that they just made a couple of patches for each game. After that, it's as if they just gave up, because the fans had to correct the remanining bugs on their own. Â This reminds me of another game... { Old 2 } Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChAiNz.2da Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Now you're talking about scripting and that shouldn't be affected by the hardware - unless the devs do something really stupid. If you take that out there's really no big difference if you got to port a RPG to PC or any other game. Take GTA SA for example - it comes from the PS2, so the step to the PC is even bigger than from Xbox to PC and I hardly see any similarities to PacMan... A rare example yes, but it proves that it is possible... huh?  When did it become exclusively hardware related? Most patches to this date oftentimes contain fixes to scripts. Scripting language also plays a major role in games, porting or no...  Even then, if we were to take just game elements (excluding scripts) then models, particle effects, physics (if any), even game lighting is enough to contain information that will crash a comp.. or at a minimum, be "glitchy"..  and I've still yet to see any in-depth game be glitch/bug/fix free...  If you're implying that GTA SA is glitch-free.. I'd have to disagree..  and although the only "patch" for GTA SA is for "Cold Coffee".. it too fixes bugs that some didn't realize exist:  Cold Coffee Rockstar Games created a new website, which contains a patch, that will disable the hot-coffee scenes in GTA San Andreas. So, if you want to disable or uninstall the hot coffee scenes, then go ahead and apply this patch.  NoMoreHotCoffee.com  Anyways, this patch also fixes a few bugs:   ADDITIONS  - Added support for 720p and 1080i HDTV resolutions (may also do 1080p, not sure). - Version Number displayed on game title screen.  BUGS FIXED  *Issue fixed on machines where the OS has been updated (one OS installed over top of another) and has 2 registry keys that point to the users "My Documents" folder (we incorrectly used to assume the Win2000 folder, now correctly uses the last installed OS folder) - users know this as "user account period bug".  *Crash when entering advanced display options with only 32 meg of video ram (32 meg of video ram is not supported and will only allow use of 640*480 in 16 and 32 bit. At this resolution it is likely you will see the "Black Roads" LOD problem). We do NOT however disallow machines with 32 meg of video ram from running GRAND THEFT AUTO: San Andreas.  *Crash when entering advanced display options on a dual monitor machine after :- starting game on primary monitor in maximum resolution, exiting, starting again in maximum resolution on secondary monitor. Secondary monitor maximum resolution had to be greater than maximum resolution of primary monitor.  *Destroyed cars now are correct colour.  *Dirty cars now able to get clean.  *Numpad 5 key is now mappable when re-defining controls.  *Issue on all machines where certain collisions caused parts of the audio system to crash (sound effects, cutscene audio - only radio keeps going) - users know this as "Rain / Thunderstorm bug".  *Improvements to DVD streaming.  *Audio problems in interior / exterior transitions and getting in / out of cars fixed.  *Some fixes to ensure reverb is not present at certain save points.  *Improvements to dance game timings.  *Crash occuring when using "user radio files" while the frame limiter is disabled. Posted by: Lucas @ August 10 2005, 11:19 am source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz1978 Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 When did it become exclusively hardware related? Most patches to this date oftentimes contain fixes to scripts. Scripting language also plays a major role in games, porting or no... Ok, let's cut this down, before it gets ugly... Â RedHawke stated that due to the variety of PC configurations PC-games would always need patches and console games wouldn't or better shouldn't. I'm not delusional (but if I were, I wouldn't notice, so I can't be sure...) and I know that it's next to impossible to develop a game that's bug/glitch/whatever-free at all and it's definitely impossible if anyone wants to make money with it. But there's still a big difference between games that are "virtually" bug-free (and I still think that GTA SA is a good example) and games that should come with a cheque for beta testing (UFO Aftershock/ Deus Ex). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChAiNz.2da Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Ok, let's cut this down, before it gets ugly... Agreed.. Truce. RedHawke stated that due to the variety of PC configurations PC-games would always need patches and console games wouldn't or better shouldn't. I'm not delusional (but if I were, I wouldn't notice, so I can't be sure...) and I know that it's next to impossible to develop a game that's bug/glitch/whatever-free at all and it's definitely impossible if anyone wants to make money with it. But there's still a big difference between games that are "virtually" bug-free (and I still think that GTA SA is a good example) and games that should come with a cheque for beta testing (UFO Aftershock/ Deus Ex).Definitely.. and I do agree with you there.  Being "virtualy" bug-free vs "my pc crashes every 3-1/2 steps unless I press A+B, left click and hop on one foot" can be the make-or-break deal to enjoying a game.. or it's franchise survival  I think QA needs to play a larger role in pre-distribution.. and be given the time to do so.. but well, we all know that's a pipe-dream unless development was to finish up uber-early and not tell the suits.. hehehe..  Still, as much as all the griping/moaning/pulling hair.. I don't think TSL has destroyed the franchise for the PC and though I can see Prime's point about the waiting for console market saturation.. I DO hope that it doesn't come to that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz1978 Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I don't think TSL has destroyed the franchise for the PC and though I can see Prime's point about the waiting for console market saturation.. I DO hope that it doesn't come to that... Hmm, the XBox360 ranks #4 in "computer & video games" on amazon.com and #29 (total) on amazon.de and from what I've read they've sold way over 3 Million XBox360 until now and just because MS wasn't able to produce more. I really have no idea how *anyone* can buy this thing but it sure sells like hell. So if a developer would begin to work on K3 right now, he would have a peer group of something like 10-15 Million XBox360-owners when the game is ready to be published. I know nobody asks me but if anyone would I would say there's no sense in waiting. Â I like my idea better, that K3 will use the NWN2 graphics engine and the development of K3 will have to wait until NWN2 has been published. I also don't think that K3 will be XBox exclusive - it's the third of a series that was published on XBox and PC and TSL is not the only game that sold better on a non-PC-system but was published on PC nevertheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Chief Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 The fact is, I am more worried on if the game will come out at ALL. I will make adjustments to my PC/360 after I know it is coming out. I wouldn't worry until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 RedHawke stated that due to the variety of PC configurations PC-games would always need patches and console games wouldn't or better shouldn't. I stand by what I said too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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