I'm sorry to say, but Malak is cooler than the three scrubs in this game [SPOILERS]

[SithAnnihilator]

Nihilus being described as ridiculously powerful (killing a planet with the Force - that's like 100+ (?) times the power of any jedi ever seen in any movie)and then appearing ridiculously weak in-game

 

Don't forget that it was explained that Nihilous didnt control that power. It controlled him. It had 'its own will' and maybe it 'felt' (can I call it that?) a greater purpose would be served by letting the exile survive. Don't forget the founding concept surrounding the star wars universe. Every action, no matter how small, echoes through the force, and some acts, if properly executed, can create ripples in the future, potentially accomplishing what might seem unlikely if looked at from a 'here and now' point of view.

 

As far as Sion, he sadly reminds me of a young Anakin Skywalker. Instantly turning to his "Master's" will without resistance. And well....Kreia was a joke. Some of the weaker opponents in K1 had a better backstory than she did.

 

EDIT: I know I am way late on this but I thought the extra background received from Kreia through gaining influence with her was a fairly decent build-up to the confrontation with Nihilous. And I must have somehow missed the part where the exiles immunity to NihilousDrain™ was explained. Time to play through again

[RobQel-Droma]

That's why I gave them lightsabers. They look much better with those. It would be a better weapon for them to use anyhow, because it takes one hit to kill someone, unlike a stadd that you have to use quite a bit of force with. Other than how it makes a sound, a lightsaber would be a much more ideal weapon for an assassin than a large stick.

 

I found it interesting that the only assassin that wields a lightsaber was in the Trayus Academy, called "Elite Sith Assassin" (or something), and wielding dual lightsabers; in fact, two lightsabers that had an uncommon combo of colors, (red and viridian). Now what they should have done is to scatter that one guy around the game, leading the other assassins in that area, and then replace the regular assassin's sticks with something a bit more flashier. Like stoffe -mkb- said, perhaps a Force Pike or something.

 

Unfortunately, DS characters don't get to fight any Sith troops. Nihilus' ship and Malachor were full of Sith commandos, but not standard troopers. It's like Luke fighting Royal Guardsmen and no stormtroopers. Thankfully, there are a few places in the game Sith troops can be implemented into while still fitting with the plot.

 

Hm... Are you sure they were all Sith commandos? I'm pretty sure, especially in Nadd's tomb, that quite a few were the regular red or silver Sith troops, and probably elsewhere too.

 

Very tough battles are, in particular during the first playthrough, rather frustrating and annoying rather than fun, since they prevent you from moving on with the story you are eager to explore. And the whole boss concept, having been used for decades, is starting to get a little old. Challenge can be provided through more believable means than some big bad enemy who for no reason appears to be a demigod. But that's another discussion.

 

I agree, although I do like for a game to be challenging when I first pick it up. The only problem with TSL was that it was too unbalanced. Sometimes I thought that the stats on the minor "Sith Lord" in Nadd's tomb had gotten switched with one of the major Sith Lords in the game. Probably the game difficulties just need to be accordingly adjusted for each type of player.

 

Not entirely true. The Force is a large reason for that, as it enhances those traits, and also grants the user skill in combat. It's all but impossible for someone who's very strong in the Force to be an unskilled uelist. Hence how Dooku, despite being 80 years old, could stand up against a fit young man in duel, despite losing.

 

Yeah, but I got the impression that that was more of a side effect, or individual focus. The force can grant you great combat skills, especially if you are powerful in the Force, but not like a person who has trained for years in saber combat and has that combined with natural force ability. I don't think that the focus is on combat, that is just one aspect of the bigger picture.

 

The Jedi do judge their leaders by wisdom and intellect over brawn, but those traits are enhanced by the Force.

 

True, but those traits have to be good in order for the enhancement to make much of a difference. The force doesn't grant omnipotence - Yoda says that the Force only partially controls your actions, so I would think that it more guides or aids you.

 

Top of the line grunts, yes, but uncommon ones. In any military the commandos make up a much smaller and less expendable force than regular soldiers. Nihilus wasn't very bright about sending them onto Citadel Station at the front lines. But Nihilus seemed to look at the universe in a very Olympian way, and I don't think he'd care if his best troops died or not.

 

Again, true, but I also would wonder if they would have to be top-of-the-line to survive until then. The Sith aren't as widespread then, of course, so it might make sense in a way to have many be the elite - and of course, the Sith isn't an empire anymore, and the way they operate is different. I would imagine that the kind of "grunt" would change also, and not have the same throw-away cannon fodder designation.

 

If that were so, Yoda would have come back to assassinate Sidious later.

 

However, by that time, Sidious's empire would be a bit more stable, and he would have good ol' Vader back with him again, along with thousands of stormtroopers. During the time of the Sidious vs. Yoda fight, he was probably at his weakest strategic point. Man, how did we get talking about this?

 

It just yells to your face that the adventure your characters are on is really impossible, since they'd been dead many times over if it wasn't for the mighty SaveGame feature.

 

Quoted for emphasis.

 

That is true, though the Force hones all abilities. I doubt Dooku could've lasted as long as he had without it, even though he lost to Anakin. It does grant more than the ability to spew flashy energy from your hand, after all. Look at how the Exile, a woman in her early thirties, was able to defeat a most likely younger man in melee combat. The Force grants many powers.

 

As does lightsaber combat training by Kreia, and much practicing against run-of-the-mill Sith beforehand.

 

And I must have somehow missed the part where the exiles immunity to NihilousDrain™ was explained. Time to play through again

 

It is shown during the fight with Nihilus and the Exile, I believe.

 

(And if you interpret the tale Palpatine told Anakin at the theatre in Ep 3 as something that actually happened, then Darth Sidious murdered his master in his sleep as well. So the Sith apparantly have no rules that you must beat your master in a straight fight when trying to topple them. )

 

Yuthura and Uthar double-double-cross, with the poison in the bed or the bath? I think the head-on confrontation is still preferred, and would gain prestige, but yeah, several weaker Sith's greed for power would cause them to try other methods, just like Malak.

[Emperor Devon]

Hm... Are you sure they were all Sith commandos? I'm pretty sure, especially in Nadd's tomb, that quite a few were the regular red or silver Sith troops, and probably elsewhere too.

 

No, I was just talking about the areas stoffe mentioned.

 

but not like a person who has trained for years in saber combat and has that combined with natural force ability.

 

Yoda was nearly nine hundred when he fought Sidious. I wonder how many inutes he'd put into lightsaber sparring?

 

True, but those traits have to be good in order for the enhancement to make much of a difference. The force doesn't grant omnipotence - Yoda says that the Force only partially controls your actions, so I would think that it more guides or aids you.

 

Quite possible, though I've yet to see a Jedi Master who didn't have a significantly above average intellect and sense of wisdom. I think the Force simply enhances all current senses.

 

The Sith aren't as widespread then, of course, so it might make sense in a way to have many be the elite - and of course, the Sith isn't an empire anymore, and the way they operate is different.

 

I'm not sure. By the time Daala began her second campaign against the New Republic, she had an immense amount of troops that were cloistered in the Deep Core, despite the civil wars and defeats. I'm inclined the Sith did the same thing, but were cloistered in farthest reaches of the Outer Rim instead. But if the commandos were as common as normal grunts, they must've had a very small army. But Nihilus was stupid about the them. Commandos are best sent on sabotage or assassination missions, not thrown into the field of battle where they're little better off than fodder.

 

However, by that time, Sidious's empire would be a bit more stable, and he would have good ol' Vader back with him again, along with thousands of stormtroopers. During the time of the Sidious vs. Yoda fight, he was probably at his weakest strategic point. Man, how did we get talking about this?

 

Who knows? But I don't think that matters. Sidious had enough troops to overwhelm Yoda either way. He was able to get into the Senate building just fine, so I don't think common stormtroopers could've stopped him. They had enough firepower to overhwhelm Yoda then, but didn't.

 

As does lightsaber combat training by Kreia, and much practicing against run-of-the-mill Sith beforehand.

 

I was just saying what strengths the Force grants. I don't think she could've dueled Sith Lords of fought her way through platoons of troopers if she didn't have it.

[stoffe]

Yoda was nearly nine hundred when he fought Sidious. I wonder how many inutes he'd put into lightsaber sparring?

 

Probably several human lifetimes of practice taken together, in addition to studying techniques, fighting styles tactics and so on. If you are a great warrior without the force, you become a supreme warrior with it. If you are a mediocre warrior without the force you will at best become a decent warrior with it. Mundane training and studies are not meaningless for Jedi (or Sith for that matter) just because they can use the force to boost their abilities.

 

 

Quite possible, though I've yet to see a Jedi Master who didn't have a significantly above average intellect and sense of wisdom. I think the Force simply enhances all current senses.

 

That could be because you wont become a Jedi Master to begin with if you don't fulfill the "prerequisites", so to speak. Just like you won't find any rocket scientists who are barely sentient drooling idiots, you won't find any Jedi Master's who aren't strong in the force, physically able and possessing a keen intellect, since they would never have reached the position if they didn't. Not everyone who becomes a member of the Jedi Order eventually ends up as a Master on the council after all. Only the cream of the crop get that far. Many who join the order won't even become Knights, but they still serve a purpose.

 

 

But Nihilus was stupid about the them. Commandos are best sent on sabotage or assassination missions, not thrown into the field of battle where they're little better off than fodder.

 

I don't think Darth Nihilus concerned himself with such things at all any more, he doesn't seem the type. Too insignificant for his widened awareness. He probably lets his generals or commanders deal with the specifics of how the military operations he desires done are carried out.

 

And really, this is a guy who slowly devours his own bridge crew. I don't think he cares in the slightest what happens to his commandos.

 

 

I was just saying what strengths the Force grants. I don't think she could've dueled Sith Lords of fought her way through platoons of troopers if she didn't have it.

 

Since said Sith Lords also use the force all those fights would have been an equal match if mundane skills and experience didn't play a significant part of it. I'm just saying the force isn't the only thing that's important in determining someone's combat skill. One should not underestimate the importance of experience, skill and technique compared to raw physical brawn or the Force. They all play an important role in making a complete warrior. The one that gets the balance between them right is the one who comes out victorious. Especially important when your opponent has the same potential means at their disposal as you do.

 

It's not like the Exile was new to fighting at the beginning of the game anyway. She was a war veteran who fought throughout the Mandalorian Wars, from when Revan's rogue jedi band decided to join all the way up to the final battle. Since she was still alive I'd imagine she had learned a lot about fighting during the war, in addition to the Jedi training received before then. Unlike many of her peers who fell during the war. Not too bad for someone described as "average at best" in their force ability.

[SithAnnihilator]

It is shown during the fight with Nihilus and the Exile, I believe.

 

Ok I caught it this time. I guess I was just so excited with the final confrontation with Nihilous that I missed it. And as for Malak, I didn't like the style they used for him. I mean yea he was pretty strong, but even on the xbox, I found more difficulty against the star forge's dark jedi trio than I did Malak himself. He seemed like a pushover to me, but then, my character was maxed out so that might be why. Thats not to say I didn't like the original KotOR but I just find TSL more immense and hooking.

 

But I have the perfect phrase right here:

To each their own

[Emperor Devon]

That could be because you wont become a Jedi Master to begin with if you don't fulfill the "prerequisites", so to speak.

 

Hmm, I can think of some Masters who didn't fit all the requirements for that rank very well. But my original point was that the Force enhances those traits.

 

And really, this is a guy who slowly devours his own bridge crew. I don't think he cares in the slightest what happens to his commandos.

 

I agree. He had a very Olympian view of the galaxy.

 

Since said Sith Lords also use the force all those fights would have been an equal match if mundane skills and experience didn't play a significant part of it. {snip}

 

I'd say the Force is a bit more poweful than that. It's much more complex than shooting fireballs or ice shards at people. Non-Force sensitive individuals who are capable of defeating an average Jedi/Sith are most uncommon.

[playloud]

Just to interject something on the Mace or Yoda being the best with a saber...

 

It is stated in EP II when Obi Wan is talking to Anakin about his obsession with speeders (During the coruscant Zam Wiesel chase) that Yoda was the one to beat in lightsaber skills, even over Windu.

Windu is never mentioned, and the events of RoTS would indicate that Windu was better than Yoda. Windu bested Sidious.

 

Also, when Anakin was describing Obi-Wan in AoTC, he said he was as wise as Yoda, and as powerful as Windu, which sounded to me like Windu had more power than Yoda (but was not as wise).

[RedHawke]

and the events of RoTS would indicate that Windu was better than Yoda. Windu bested Sidious.

Sidious was putting on an act for Aniken in the Windu fight (Sidious knew Aniken was coming, it was all planned)... Windu could arguably be called an equal for Sidious with a saber.

 

Yoda bested Sidious with a saber, in an all-out fight... Yoda was bested by Sidious' Force Powers not a saber, this is the main reason Sisious switched to using Force Powers on Yoda as he could not beat him with his saber.

 

Also, when Anakin was describing Obi-Wan in AoTC, he said he was as wise as Yoda, and as powerful as Windu, which sounded to me like Windu had more power than Yoda (but was not as wise).

That he likely was, Obi-Wan was no pushover... but his saber skills were no match for Yoda's.

 

Hence the "powerful as Windu" statement, Windu was one of the Jedi's best with a saber as Obi-Wan was, but the absolute best in saber fighting was Yoda, he had hundreds of years to become so.

[playloud]

Sidious was putting on an act for Aniken in the Windu fight (Sidious knew Aniken was coming, it was all planned)...

This is in dispute. I personally believe that it was no act. The best explanation that I have read can be found here.

 

Perhaps Windu's skill with a lightsaber was not the equal of Yoda's, however his ability to combat Sidious effectively was apparent. Check the link for the explanation of that statement.

[RedHawke]

This is in dispute.

Not from my end it isn't.

 

I personally believe that it was no act. The best explanation that I have read can be found here.

 

Perhaps Windu's skill with a lightsaber was not the equal of Yoda's, however his ability to combat Sidious effectively was apparent. Check the link for the explanation of that statement.

While it is well thought out the person who wrote all that forgot that Sidious greatest power was his forsight, he knew what was going to happen, Luke even commented on this in RotJ. A fact the writer never even mentions in his writings about Sidious.

 

So I have to disagree with that persons conclusions on this fight. I do agree that Mace Windu was a pivotal character but not what that person makes him out to be.

[playloud]

Not from my end it isn't.

 

 

While it is well thought out the person who wrote all that forgot that Sidious greatest power was his forsight, he knew what was going to happen, Luke even commented on this in RotJ. A fact the writer never even mentions in his writings about Sidious.

Unfortunately, it cannot be proven either way. Some believe that Windu won the fight, and Anakin saved Sidious, while others believe that Sidious was never in any real danger. However, I point to the official Star Wars website, and the article regarding Darth Sidious

 

 

In the article, it states...

With Anakin Skywalker's help, Sidious was able to defeat Mace, though he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning. To conceal his disfigured visage, Sidious returned to his simple Sith robes.

 

As it says with Skywalker's help, and that he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning, it sounds to me like the official site agrees with the author of the article I linked previously. The article on the official site makes no mention of an act by Sidious in this scene.

[stoffe]

While it is well thought out the person who wrote all that forgot that Sidious greatest power was his forsight, he knew what was going to happen, Luke even commented on this in RotJ. A fact the writer never even mentions in his writings about Sidious.

 

And still he didn't foresee that his own loyal pet would turn on him and throw him to his death, that his "best legions" on Endor's forrest moon would get whiped out by the natives, and that the death star would be destroyed shortly along with a significant portion of its fleet. None of them small and insignificant events unworthy of his notice. Apparently Sidious' foresight has its limits, even though he himself seems unwilling to accept that fact.

 

As for the scene you refer to, Luke also says something like "Your overconfidence is your weakness", which may as well be true. Sidious may well have been convinced that he could defeat MWindu, but when it actually came down to the fight it may have turned out differently with Windu getting the upper hand. Few well laid plans survive contact with the enemy.

 

Personally I prefer the variant where Sidious actually was beaten, as it makes Anakin's fall all the more pivotal and important. It doesn't only turn him into a powerful puppet of the Empire, but a major reason why the Empire came into existence at all. Otherwise Anakin wasn't really all that important. Otherwise the Empire would have arised with or without him. Palpatine's Clone Troopers seemed quite capable of sneak attacking the entire Jedi Order to death even without Anakin's aid, after all. They might have taken some more casualties when raiding the Jedi Temple, but it would have been done regardless.

 

While Sidious may be a very powerful individual, I doubt he's powerful enough that he can afford to toy with one of the strongest weapon masters of the Order who's trying to beat him. The top of the line Sith shouldn't be that much more powerful than the top of the line Jedi, though their respective strengths may lie in different aspects of the force and combat, which may affect the outcome of a confrontation depending on the circumstances.

 

That's not saying that Sidious didn't use the situation of being beaten to his advantage when Anakin showed up, even if that might not be how he initially planned for things to go.

[RedHawke]

And still he didn't foresee that his own loyal pet would turn on him and throw him to his death, that his "best legions" on Endor's forrest moon would get whiped out by the natives, and that the death star would be destroyed shortly along with a significant portion of its fleet. None of them small and insignificant events unworthy of his notice. Apparently Sidious' foresight has its limits, even though he himself seems unwilling to accept that fact.

Yes, Sidious couldn't possibly 'see' Vaders actions or what would happen, hence the force failed Sidious at that time, as Vader's destiny was at hand.

 

The force has a will of its own, this is the reason Sidious was so confident, he was shown something by his 'foresight' that didn't actually come to pass (Luke joining him as his new apprentice or Luke's defeat at either Vaders hands or his own), instead Vader/Aniken made a choice out of love for his son, one to the contrary to what Sidious thought possible. Just as Luke stated to him.

 

That single moment was what Star Wars was about.

[playloud]

Per my post above, the evidence suggests that Windu defeating Sidious was legit. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how much Sidious knew, but it appears Windu was more than he could handle without the help of Anakin.

[goldberry]

I have always seen that Sidious had manipulated everything, Anakin's birth, Most of what caused Anakin to become a Jedi, and then his fall to the dark side. He had planned it years in advance, and knew how the masters would react. I agree with RH that while Windu and Sidious *may* have been a fair match, Sidious let him take him down to prove a point.

[Emperor Devon]

And still he didn't foresee that his own loyal pet would turn on him and throw him to his death, that his "best legions" on Endor's forrest moon would get whiped out by the natives, and that the death star would be destroyed shortly along with a significant portion of its fleet. None of them small and insignificant events unworthy of his notice. Apparently Sidious' foresight has its limits, even though he himself seems unwilling to accept that fact.

 

Or so we all thought until Dark Empire!

[RobQel-Droma]

Quite possible, though I've yet to see a Jedi Master who didn't have a significantly above average intellect and sense of wisdom. I think the Force simply enhances all current senses.

 

That is what I think, also - we might actually be on the same page from what you are saying. I might have misunderstood what view you took.

 

Who knows? But I don't think that matters. Sidious had enough troops to overwhelm Yoda either way. He was able to get into the Senate building just fine, so I don't think common stormtroopers could've stopped him. They had enough firepower to overhwhelm Yoda then, but didn't.

 

That's true. I just was thinking about where those troops would have been, as Sidious would have undoubtedly been having to crush any infant rebellions that might have destabilized his also infant empire. He didn't dare to make a move before he had all that power, so he probably was trying to make sure no Jedi were left before trying to go ahead with his rule.

 

I'd say the Force is a bit more poweful than that. It's much more complex than shooting fireballs or ice shards at people. Non-Force sensitive individuals who are capable of defeating an average Jedi/Sith are most uncommon.

 

Having the force sets you apart from those who don't, of course. And while there are those who simply have the force much more/less than others, many would usually have "average" force sensitivity, so the kind of personal training, experience, practice, etc. It makes you much more powerful, but when you're fighting another force-sensitive with roughly the same amount of power it would nullify that advantage (in a broad sense).

[RedHawke]

Per my post above, the evidence suggests that Windu defeating Sidious was legit. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how much Sidious knew, but it appears Windu was more than he could handle without the help of Anakin.

playloud,

• Do I think Mace Windu is cool? Yes. (Sam Jackson is cool no matter what part he is playing... and having Purple Lightsabers become a Canon saber color because of him is really cool as well.)
  
• Do I think he was pivotal? Positively, yes.
  
• Do I think he could possibly best the Emperor? Absolutely not.
  

Having over a decade and a half to contemplate the strengths and powers 'The Emperor' wielded, then actually seeing it all be realised in EPII & EPIII, I will stick to my personal interpretations on this matter.

 

As the other interpretations like those you linked to are obvious Mace Windu 'fanboy' nonsense. It isn't the first for Star Wars lore either as another character in the OT was blown out of proportion as well... Boba Fett. So much so that GL added in his origins as part of the Clone Wars.

[playloud]

playloud,

[*]Do I think he could possibly best the Emperor? Absolutely not.

He DID best the Emperor. The only thing that saved Sidious was Anakin. Sidious did not have the power to defeat Windu. Windu was able to channel the lightning back at Sidious.

As the other interpretations like those you linked to are obvious Mace Windu 'fanboy' nonsense.

The official site is fanboy nonsense? While you may still interpret the scene in a different way, both the novelization and the official Star Wars site would seem to disagree with you. Since every piece of official information sides with the interpretation that I have suggested, I would think that would make it the official interpretation.

[Totenkopf]

Whether Mace was stronger than Sidious, or the reverse, one thing that was certain was that Anakin was in the Chancellor's pocket, even if he didn't realize it himself (he being Anakin). I thought perhaps DS went down a little too quickly for someone that was supposedly so powerful. I'd have to agree w/Redhawke that the whole encounter was probably to complete the last step of Anakin's seduction. That doesn't denigrate Mace, but even Yoda was bested by DS. Still, you still might have to wonder what would've happened had Anakin not gone all dark sidey and actually obeyed Windu. As was pointed out above, DS's main blindness was due to excessive arrogance. While he turned out to be right about AS, it could've gone the other way (except that that would've skunked the plot). Then, maybe the question of Mace's power could have been answered more clearly (except, again, for the fact that these are fictional characters and Lucas never intended for Mace to win in the first place and in the SW universe, Lucas=god).

[RedHawke]

He DID best the Emperor. The only thing that saved Sidious was Anakin. Sidious did not have the power to defeat Windu. Windu was able to channel the lightning back at Sidious.

Only in your opinion... mine differs.

 

The official site is fanboy nonsense?

It sure can be... and it is in regards to this event.

[Vaelastraz]

To me it seems like you need physical strength to hold your lightsaber firm while the Emperor does his best to force lightning you.

 

Yoda does not have this strength.

Mace Windu does.

 

But apart from that, I too believe that this Palpatine-Windu encouter was staged for Anakin. Windu did not best Palpatine.

 

Do you really think it was Randomness (or the fate -.-) that Anakin turned to the Darkside?

 

Imo Palpatine turned him all by himself. Anakin did have fears and emotions and blablabla every human has. Palpatine manipulated him carefully and effective and that fight vs Windu was just the last step.

[Melly]

Um, while this is an interesting discussion, what the heck does it have to do with Malak and the three Sith Lords from K2?

[goldberry]

That's what I was thinking, but if you read the entire conversation, it does originate from the morals (or lack of such) of the sith.

[playloud]

Well RedHawke, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.