The Sith'ari

[logan23]

Hey:)

 

We always hear from the Jedi that Revan fell, and since the victors decide history that has become the official viewpoint. If only Revan, with all of his memories, could come back and tell us what happened. For now I am content to trust in Kreia, since the Jedi never give me sufficient reason to do so.

 

What if Revan comes back and goes...mmm...yeah I fell to the dark side...it was a faze.

 

I don't trust Kreia since she would use he to get what ever she wants, and when I'm expendable, she would cast me aside like how she viewed the Exile's party. I will pass on Kreia but I did hear she is great at karaoke:D

 

 

Even in kotor2 they said that all the Jedi turned to the dark side at the battle of Malachor V or died, except one....the Jedi Exile.

They?

 

Yup, that was the whole concept with kotor2, all the Jedi fell to the dark side or died at Malachor V's battle, except one.....the Jedi Exile. Its in the game. That's why Kreia was looking for you, she wanted to know how and why a person could walk away...walk away from the force.

 

Now in the end of kotor1, Revan is more of a mix between the Jedi and Sith Revan, who is dictated more by his personality and convictions.

Or perhaps he was always like that...

 

From a psychological stand point, anyone would be changed from what he has gone through. The Revan during kotor1 is the not the same Revan as the one who was a jedi, General Revan, and Darth Revan. As a person goes through life they change do to events, its only natural. Its basic psychology.

 

I'd like to argue against your points. Those, however, are part of the Jedi dogma.

 

Its not dogma its psychology. You can imply those 4 items to many areas, like crime, murder...etc.

 

The Jedi accuse the Sith of the same thing, so it's perfectly possible that both do it. From where I'm standing, since the Sith are the prodigy of the Jedi, they had to learn it from somewhere.

 

The Sith only make the person see how they can achieve a goal in their way and then ground it so that the person would not have resentment from the action. The Sith know that resentment for the action before its committed will cause a person to not go through with it. If the action is already happen then resentment can be re directed so that the person's mind will not feel pain. An example of this was when Anakin killed Windu. Anakin cried out what have I done. The emperor re-directed that resentment, bring in that the Jedi would kill them so they must act fast. We all mentally want to move away from pain and to pleasure, its in our programming.

 

Only if you see it as letting go of something that just "falls out of your mind". I see the Sith philosophy more stable (despite its obvious flaws) because it allows one to harness those emotions and put them to use. And it's not like this is always unsuccessful. Obi-Wan harnessed his anguish, grief, and outrage over Qui-Gon's death to make him more effective against Darth Maul without becoming evil. The Sith have the potential to do the same thing, but lack the moderating aspects of compassion, mercy, and love to keep them from being consumed by more malevolent emotions.

 

Any person who fights with rage will lose. Look up any military source and you will see that the calm and focus army wins, not the ones running mad at their enemy. Obi-Wan almost died to Mail do to his anger and lost of his master. He fought hard but at the end he was hanging on a cliff. Only when he calmed himself and focus did he see an opportunity to defeat Maul. And this is how Maul died. Watch the video.

 

It isn't a belief so much as me using Jedi-logic against itself.

 

I would hope its a belief if not then the battle is lost. Beliefs make you strong and grounded.

 

The Guide from what I can tell is very Jedi-biased.

 

Its a star wars publish guide, its cannon, get over it. lol

 

Keep it coming, I see you are starting to agree with me in some areas...hmmm lol

 

Logan

Certainly, considering we agree on a lot of stuff involving KOTOR III An End of an Era.

 

Yes we do and with use being able to debate issue like this will allow the PC and story a more dynamic feel since we will both not be yes-ing each other to death,

 

In mine only? Why not TKA-001's as well? It's only fair...

I'm getting there:D

 

Quote:

Revan had a goal outside of removing the Republic: kill the True Sith. If he had built his army he would have most likely attacked with it. Sidious on the other hand had his army but didn't stop the Vong when he could.

Sidious didn't stop the Vong because he was dead for over twenty years before they arrived.

 

If my memory is correct the Vong was not even invented, don't remember Lucas ever thinking about the Vong when he wrote star wars 4-6. So it would be safe to say Sidious didn't attack them since they were not invented yet.

 

Balderdash. The Sith Lord doesn't kill the Jedi Masters because they're threatening someone. She kills the Jedi Masters because she hates them and wants them dead. If Kreia's decision in the Enclave was motivated by the need to protect something, then it was because she cared about the Exile in the same way that an arsonist cares about his gasoline, not because she gave a **** about the Exile in any way other than how she could be used to further her own ridiculous goals. Besides, if Kreia's real motivation was protecting the Exile from the "evil" of the Jedi, then she would have at least attempted to take them alive.

 

Kreia did care for the Exile since even at the end she said she would kill the galaxy to preserve the Exile. With the scene with the Jedi masters, Kreia wanted the masters to see their faults in their teaching so they can be broken. There was a small part of her that hoped that if the Jedi masters could see the beauty in the Exile that Kreia could feel that all she has done was was for something good. When the events went bad, Kreia killed the the Jedi masters and left the Exile there. She then set forward her plan to destroy Atris, Nihilus, and Sion, and to force the Exile to confront her demons on Mlachor V.

 

 

Logan

[Lord of Hunger]

What if Revan comes back and goes...mmm...yeah I fell to the dark side...it was a faze.

Then I'll accept that. However, every indication we're getting is that we'll never hear from Revan himself.

I don't trust Kreia since she would use he to get what ever she wants, and when I'm expendable, she would cast me aside like how she viewed the Exile's party. I will pass on Kreia but I did hear she is great at karaoke:D

Very funny, but frankly a lot of the people she uses are simply not respectable. The only truly decent person that she uses is Mical, but all she does is suppress any memories relating to her plot to destroy the Force so he does blow the whole thing.

Yup, that was the whole concept with kotor2, all the Jedi fell to the dark side or died at Malachor V's battle, except one.....the Jedi Exile. Its in the game. That's why Kreia was looking for you, she wanted to know how and why a person could walk away...walk away from the force.

1) Who makes that statement is what I'm asking?

2) From what I can tell, Kreia doesn't care about LS or DS. She cares about the Exile turning away from the Force.

From a psychological stand point, anyone would be changed from what he has gone through. The Revan during kotor1 is the not the same Revan as the one who was a jedi, General Revan, and Darth Revan. As a person goes through life they change do to events, its only natural. Its basic psychology.

Some people have very strong willpower. They are able to resist mental changes despite the situation but carry whatever outward person is necessary.

Its not dogma its psychology. You can imply those 4 items to many areas, like crime, murder...etc.

I disagree, partially because this is the viewpoint of one Jedi Master. She, like the rest of the Jedi, does not take into account that

a) The Dark Side may not exist and there is simply evil out there.

b) There are many forms of evil, and not all have the same effect.

c) She is applying one psychological profile to all cases of Dark Jedi and Sith.

The Sith only make the person see how they can achieve a goal in their way and then ground it so that the person would not have resentment from the action. The Sith know that resentment for the action before its committed will cause a person to not go through with it. If the action is already happen then resentment can be re directed so that the person's mind will not feel pain. An example of this was when Anakin killed Windu. Anakin cried out what have I done. The emperor re-directed that resentment, bring in that the Jedi would kill them so they must act fast. We all mentally want to move away from pain and to pleasure, its in our programming.

Irregardless, resentment has a basis in real life. Anakin (despite being a stupid, whiny teenager) was considered nothing but a tool of the Jedi as both a spy and THE CHOSEN ONE (Note: I always capitalize this. ). The Council only used him, nothing more. The Sith don't have to lie, since half-truths are more effective.

Any person who fights with rage will lose. Look up any military source and you will see that the calm and focus army wins, not the ones running mad at their enemy. Obi-Wan almost died to Mail do to his anger and lost of his master. He fought hard but at the end he was hanging on a cliff. Only when he calmed himself and focus did he see an opportunity to defeat Maul. And this is how Maul died. Watch the video.

I did watch this and you fail to take into account that Obi-Wan's performance dramatically improved when he tapped into his rage. Maul was still stronger, though was defeated by his hubris.

I would hope its a belief if not then the battle is lost. Beliefs make you strong and grounded.

I am actually considering those Four Stages as a belief, but only if I can prepare a more solid case for the Jedi being no better than the Sith.

Its a star wars publish guide, its cannon, get over it. lol

Until it's retconned, like all the guides before it. So I hold any bias within against it.

Yes we do and with use being able to debate issue like this will allow the PC and story a more dynamic feel since we will both not be yes-ing each other to death,

Exactly.

I'm getting there:D

YES!!! :D :D

[Druganator]

 

But she has never been a Sith.

 

well she served the purposes of the sith on more that one occasion. she was at malachor v and instructed bao dur to activate the MSG and killed half of the military forces there. then she rounded up the Jedi masters and kreia killed them. so if she wasn't a with she certainly acted like one.

[TSi21]

You guys sure do write a lot. I just wanted to clear up (muddy?) two small points. First of all:

 

Revan's war crimes were made clear in both KOTOR games, where it is stated that leaving certain planets defenseless against attacking Mandalorians in order to use the subsequent massacre as a morale booster was a basic strategy in his mind. Strange how it's fine for Revan to let the Mandalorians kill planets, but not for the Jedi Council (even if that isn't what they were doing). Also, the decimation of Malachor V was definitely a war crime (Bao-dur remarks that even the Mandalorians never did anything that horrendous).

 

This is only half true. The reason Revan abandonded certain planets was so that he could bolster the defenses of other planets to make them unassailable. This is a pretty standard tactic, although each time (as far as the game is concerned) one of these planets fell, it drew the Republic forces and the Jedi closer to the darkside.

 

Secondly, the debate about Revan falling or not falling. Think back to the Temple of the Ancients on Lehon. The reason Revan couldn't go straight to the roof like before is because his mind had changed. While one could argue that this was a byproduct of the Council erasing his memory, you also have to factor in the corruption of the dark side. While Revan may have become the Dark Lord to save the galaxy, he wasn't strong enough maintain control and thus he ended up falling. Sure, it may have begun with a sacrifice, but in the end, he ended up as dark as a Guinness beer.

 

That's all I got, feel free to pick away at it.

[Lord of Hunger]

You guys sure do write a lot. I just wanted to clear up (muddy?) two small points. First of all:

We do write a lot indeed. Frankly I'm enjoying this.

This is only half true. The reason Revan abandonded certain planets was so that he could bolster the defenses of other planets to make them unassailable. This is a pretty standard tactic, although each time (as far as the game is concerned) one of these planets fell, it drew the Republic forces and the Jedi closer to the darkside.

Or perhaps it simply made them emotionally harder and willing to make sacrifices necessary in war. The reason why the Sith were defeating the Republic during the Jedi Civil War wasn't just the Star Forge, since the Republic already had a numbers superiority to begin with. The Republic Military under Revan made sacrifices to secure victory, a planet here, a base there, in order to save hundreds of other planets. During the Jedi Civil Wars they were under the command of the more pacifistic Jedi in the Order and had a more humanitarian directive. Their goal was not victory, but protecting innocents. Yet sometimes you have to sacrifice something to get something, no matter how gruesome it is.

Secondly, the debate about Revan falling or not falling. Think back to the Temple of the Ancients on Lehon. The reason Revan couldn't go straight to the roof like before is because his mind had changed. While one could argue that this was a byproduct of the Council erasing his memory, you also have to factor in the corruption of the dark side. While Revan may have become the Dark Lord to save the galaxy, he wasn't strong enough maintain control and thus he ended up falling. Sure, it may have begun with a sacrifice, but in the end, he ended up as dark as a Guinness beer.

I'm supporting the Council erasing his memory. His true personality was likely suppressed by this act, though in the end it was temporary.

 

I'd also like to bring everyone's attention to another piece of information regarding Revan's "humanity". It is claimed that Revan's tactics were brutal during the Jedi Civil War. Yet I would like to cite GO-TO and Mical to counter this assertion. They both note in Revan's tactics that he, unlike Malak, deliberately avoided damaging the Republic's infrastructure, targeting armies and Jedi instead. This means two things:

 

1) He was not as brutal as Carth, the Republic, and the Jedi made him out to be.

2) Even as Dark Lord he was preparing the Galaxy for war against the True Sith by leaving a stable base for a military and political machine that could stand against them. If he was corrupted by the "Dark Side," he would have simply crushed all opposition in his path. That's what any "Dark Sider" or individual corrupted by the "Dark Side" normally does, since they rarely thing rationally. This strategy bares the markings of a very rational, though cold, tactician.

That's all I got, feel free to pick away at it.

Thanks. I enjoyed doing so.

[Ibelin]

well she served the purposes of the sith on more that one occasion. she was at malachor v and instructed bao dur to activate the MSG and killed half of the military forces there. then she rounded up the Jedi masters and kreia killed them. so if she wasn't a with she certainly acted like one.

I'm not satisfied with 2 examples above.What she did at Malachor was just following Revan's order.She may have ordered Bao-dur to build MSG but it was up to Revan to use MSG or not.

And the second one on Dantooine.The Exile was used by Kreia.She told the lie from the beginning.

[Druganator]

I'm not satisfied with 2 examples above.What she did at Malachor was just following Revan's order.She may have ordered Bao-dur to build MSG but it was up to Revan to use MSG or not.

And the second one on Dantooine.The Exile was used by Kreia.She told the lie from the beginning.

 

right but what the exile did at malachor caused many jedi to fall, and killed many jedi and republic soldiers as well regardless of revans orders the exile is the one who helped to create it and the exile is the one who told bao dur to use it. and dantooine, i know it was not her decision for them to be killed (canonically) but she caused it nonetheless.

 

I'm not saying my belief is that it is the exile all im saying is that its something to ponder.

[Ibelin]

I have always wondering this.As i read the name Revan comes from revanch.And Revan had a nick name of The Revanchist too.I mean it's too dark for a Jedi(Revan had was called so even before the Mandalorians war end).How can it be possible to have such a name when he is a jedi?

[Fredi]

I have always wondering this.As i read the name Revan comes from revanch.And Revan had a nick name of The Revanchist too.I mean it's too dark for a Jedi(Revan had was called so even before the Mandalorians war end).How can it be possible to have such a name when he is a jedi?

 

There's people that their real name is actually Revan, it's a pretty normal name for me.

[WraithPrince]

I have always wondering this.As i read the name Revan comes from revanch.And Revan had a nick name of The Revanchist too.I mean it's too dark for a Jedi(Revan had was called so even before the Mandalorians war end).How can it be possible to have such a name when he is a jedi?

 

People canm be named what ever they want, if they think it sounds cool , cultural name ect

 

cultural name would'nt make much sense unless they confirmed a birthplace.

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

I remember reading the book Darth Bane path of destruction by Andrew Kapyshyrn, lead KOTOR designer. It said that four Sith'ari's will arise at different ages. Here is my assumption. Darth Naga Sadow was the first who led the way for others. Darth Revan was the second, because he built the first true sith Empire. Darth Bane was the third because he established the rule of two, the first to ever begin a new age for the sith. And the last one, of course, was Darth Vader. The prophessy stated that he would become the most powerful sith, but the sith'ari never came to pass because palpatine died and so did Vader. The galaxy would have surely been destroyed if the fourth prophessy came to pass, but it didn't. More self proclaimed weaker "Sith Lords" like Darth Dessan, Jarec, Darth Nihl, and others, but they never were powerful enough to become Sith'ari.

[Sir Vougalot]

Darth Bane is the Sith'ari. It has been confirmed.

 

Speculation over.