Was it justified?

[Nancy Allen``]

Why'd I bring up religion? Must have been the 'ram our Gods down their throats' comment. Anyway, my belief, I'm not sure if this is the right belief to have, but my belief is to treat everybody exactly the same. That means regardless of whether you are man, woman or child, West, East, MidEast, South West, North North East, whatever, you are black, white, yellow, brown or Twi'lek green or blue, your religion is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist or Jedi, whoever you are you should be treated exactly the same. If you did the same thing as the Sand People did then you should be subject to the same laws as everybody else, regardless of your standereds and beliefs. Would this mean executing them, as Anakin did? It's fair to say he only followed their principles, if they are not willing to subject themselves to the same laws they impose on others then where is the complaint?

 

Going back to Mexico last century and Indians, I firmly believe, especially in the Indians' case they have improved greatly in the past hundred years. Was this because of white man and western influence? It could be. But the west and the white have had a lot of growing up to do themselves, even in this past century whether it be Germany being swept up in Nazism to the British sending the Leinz Cossacks back to Russia after they helped against the Soviets to McCarthism sweeping the world into a communism fearing frenzy to the stolen generation in Australia when aboriginal children were taken from their families. I think we regardless of our race or background have grown a lot, and looking at how much better we are with, say, the Indians, or the African Americans than we were a hundred years ago, there is no reason why we should not continue to evolve and better ourselves. With that said, there would be those who would not wish to grow, moreso they wish to impose their ways onto others. In the case of the Sand People they sought to drive out everyone to keep Tattooine to themselves. They were not willing to negotiate, as even Jedi had tried and failed, and they were not willing to compromise. Were they willing to, a resolution like Ireland might be possible.

[machievelli]

I'm just wondering who started the unrelenting hostility. Here in the new world it was the Spanish. They used the veneration the Aztecs had because of the prophesy of the bible said a wonderful bearded man would come.

 

With the Indians of the Atlantic south east, it was men who 'assumed' that ill equipped meant savage and stupid.

 

Were the Sand people the cause, or reacting to that cause?

 

The reason I used the 'ram religion down their throats' is because for a long time, that was Christianity's way, as it was with Islaam during their expansionist period.

 

I was saying, and meant that slaughtering the entire tribe was overreaction. In the long run all it did was cause a lot of people to die unnecessarily because the Sand People that found those bodies would assume their neighbors (Humans) had done it, and retaliated.

 

If y7ou get a chance, read my treatment of the Sand People in MY KOTOR I novelization. I treated them as the equivilant of our indians.

[Emperor Devon]

I'm just wondering who started the unrelenting hostility. Here in the new world it was the Spanish. They used the veneration the Aztecs had because of the prophesy of the bible said a wonderful bearded man would come.

 

As seen in KotOR I, the Rakata started the Sand People's xenophobia. It was reinforced by how settlers would land on their planet and tear apart the land, kill of the native species, take their resources, etc. However, that was no justification for attacking simple farmers who'd never done anything.

[Nancy Allen``]

I'm just wondering who started the unrelenting hostility.

 

In the Star Wars universe or our own? For the former I'll have a look at KOTOR and see what I can gather there.

 

I was saying, and meant that slaughtering the entire tribe was overreaction. In the long run all it did was cause a lot of people to die unnecessarily because the Sand People that found those bodies would assume their neighbors (Humans) had done it, and retaliated.

 

That's a good point. I'm not sure if Anakin overreacted, but you raise something that appears to be the Jedi's signature, to advise against or forstall action because of greater threats they see, or not see. The Jedi felt that they should not fight against the Mandalorians because of the greater threat: the Jedi Civil War and Jedi falling to the Dark Side. There's that thing with Revan doing what he did because he wanted to prepare the Jedi and the Republic for the greater threat that layed beyond the outer rim. In Anakin's case you are absolutely correct, the Jedi would most likely frown on his actions because it gave the Sand People further justification for their attacks on humans. Never mind the fact their actions are reprehensible, in their minds and probably full stop they are justified in their actions. In a very real life example, say I was to break out Schapelle Corby from her Indonesian jail. Even were I successful the athorities there would be like organ grinder monkeys and even were they not able to kill or recapture her they would crack down twice as hard as they already have and had on Australia. I would never do something like that much as I would like to for Schapelle's sake because it would cause much greater harm than good.

 

As seen in KotOR I, the Rakata started the Sand People's xenophobia. It was reinforced by how settlers would land on their planet and tear apart the land, kill of the native species, take their resources, etc. However, that was no justification for attacking simple farmers who'd never done anything.

 

No it's not. Were they to concentrate their attacks on Czerka, like the Wookies did when they liberated Kashyyyk, they would be seen in a better light. By attacking all and sundry however regardless of how justified their actions may be they come across as no better that the Iraqi Insurgents or terrorists who justify their attacks for religion or American bases on Muslim soil or whatever reason they give.

[machievelli]

In a story in my own universe, I was faced with a similar situation. A human spacecraft had landed on an alien world, and were doing major refurb so they could leave. The natives were a yeti like species that were on the ragged edge of starvation, and one of the teams was taken. One of the main characters that had been genetically altered and enhanced (An alien race had left the equivilant of a bacta tank, and they had used it, unfortunately the 6' tall male Spetznatz trooper had been born an hermaphrodite, and came out of the tank as a 6' tall woman) landed alone in front of them.

 

She advanced alone against them. Most primitive species seem to think it is not proper for you to attack enmass if the enemy confronts you directly. She merely defeated the ones who attacked her in turn without killing them until they finally figured they couldn't win one on one, and retreated.

 

As I said before. If Anakin had walked out, killed any Sand People that attacked him but did not push the controntation further, it would have ended with minimum losses.

 

It also would have been acceptable from the Jedi point of view.

 

I do not say his was not a natural reaction, just that it was the wrong one.

[RC-1162]

By attacking all and sundry however regardless of how justified their actions may be they come across as no better that the Iraqi Insurgents or terrorists who justify their attacks for religion or American bases on Muslim soil or whatever reason they give.

 

but at least the Iraqis gave a distinct reason, however lame it may be. not that i'm supporting them in any way, but the sand people dont even have a reason for attacking the settlers. of course, this could amount to them not knowing Basic, but still, there has to be a hand here. or maybe they're just plain Hitlers. but even Hitler had a reason. so...

[igyman]

While I agree with all the people who say that it isn't justified, or at least not completely, I'm just wondering how did this discussion manage to go from ''Is what Anakin did justified?'' to ''What mistakes we humans made during our own history?''

 

When we talk about Iraq, Israel, or any other country that is now occupied by ''peacekeeper'' troops I agree with machiavelli in every aspect. People make mistakes. The wrong people with high enough positions in a government make big mistakes. In USA's case the people who live there, after seeing and hopefully realizing what Bush is doing, should make sure that they do not make the same mistake again and when elections come to pick the right person for the job, or at least pick the ''lesser of evils'', so to speak.

The only problem is that all this is probably a topic for a separate thread.

[machievelli]

Iggy when you make a value judgement on what someone has done, it must have a basis for comparison you can show others. That is why 'because' doesn't work with anyone over 4 years old. Since all of us are at least from the same planet, we have things to compare it to.

 

As for the insurgents in Iraq, one segment are aiming at US military targets. The other two groups one are terrorists because they are blowing up civiloians with no connection in any way to the goernment or military, and the other is merely trying to disrupt their own government, qwhich again makes them guerillas rather than mere murderers.

 

As for the Sand people, if the colonist do not wish to be killed, they need to communicate. They, by their actions are refusing. But I am willing to bet anyone who could speak their language would get close enough to find out why.

[Totenkopf]

As for the Sand people, if the colonist do not wish to be killed, they need to communicate. They, by their actions are refusing. But I am willing to bet anyone who could speak their language would get close enough to find out why.

____________________________________________________________________

 

When you look at Revan's encounter w/the sand people in KOTOR, it's not so obvious that they wish to coexist peacefully. They are basically diametrically opposed to the colonists on probably every level. Rabid adherence to orthodoxy usually leaves little room for communication to have any real meaning. Using real life as example, it's highly doubtful you could get loggers and ELF extremists to come to terms on anything other than that they are dead set (perhaps even literally) in opposition to one another's goals. Sometimes you need to realize that you're not going to be able to reason with the other guy toward a mutually acceptable, let alone beneficial, goal. So, how much time do you want to give the other guy to prep to bury you forever?

[igyman]

Iggy when you make a value judgement on what someone has done, it must have a basis for comparison you can show others. That is why 'because' doesn't work with anyone over 4 years old. Since all of us are at least from the same planet, we have things to compare it to.

 

That's all fine with me, what bothered me was that the discussion seemed to go more into detailing these political issues of today and then was ended with a one-liner about the Sand People, as if just to try to connect all of it to this topic.I mean, lately posts here focus more on explaining people's opinion about a situation in Iraq, or israel, or somewhere else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell anyone here ''you can't do that!'', I'm not a mod and I can't tell anyone anything like that, but I'm just suggesting that too much attention has lately been given to detailing those comparisons from the real world and too little to the actual question of this thread.

Then again, maybe my babbling is unjustified, after all, if the author of this thread isn't complaining, then neither should I.

[Nancy Allen``]

The Sand People's justification for their aggression, as given by HK, is the same as some Muslims give reason for Jihad: foreigners on their land. That might be where some of the pop culture politics come from. Looking at Star Wars itself, the Sand People want to drive out all the humans, all the aliens, regardless of who they are, and keep the planet all to themselves. The Bothan who attacks you for not trying to make peace with them reveals that numerous attempts have been made, even by Jedi, and at the very best you can reduce the number of attacks.

[machievelli]

All three that anwered my posts make perfect sense. As totenkopf pointed out, they didn't want the humans there, but were willing to relocate if given the means to do so. I don't know if GL and the authors of KOTOR were realizing it, but the entire Sand People problem is a lot like radical fundamentalism of every stripe. The only way to deal with such people is have as little contact as possible.

 

However my point in this specific situation, Anakin Vs the Sand People, is that most primitive peoples respect those who will face them on their level. More treaties that have held for longer periods of time were made by men who went out to talk alone than have ever been made by an army.

 

There is an old movie named Cochise where the treaty that allowed the Butterfield Stage Company to travel through Apache land back in the 1860s is a perfect example.

 

Mass murder is not the answer. My only protest at Anakin's actions was that his actions were over the top, nothing more.

[Jediphile]

Anakin was wrong. While I can certainly sympathize with his feelings, it still doesn't justify his actions. Besides, would Shmi be pleased by what he did? I doubt it... The sand people murdered her. That's bad enough, but it's no basis for summary execution, let alone genocide of women and children.

 

I won't go into the question of what to do specifically with those responsible, because then we'll open up the Pandora's box of capital punishment, but the way to solve this is to investigate and identify those responsible for the act and then let the law deal with them accordingly.

 

Now, in this case that's quesitonable, because Tatooine seems to be a pretty chaotic place, where the Hutts are in charge and only care about their own affairs, leaving everything else to anarchy. If Anakin confronts the sand people and they then try to kill him, then it's a different matter, because it's self-defense, but that's not what he did - he went out of his way to kill every single last one of them, leaving no survivors. In a word, yuck!

[RC-1162]

if the sand people wanted the foreigners off their land, they could have just communicated, same way as the coloists should have. if either of the groups knew the other's language, then effective deals could have been drawn.

maybe i'm thinking too much on earth terms, but nobody attacks without a reason, as Mach proved to me. i never did understand what settlers saw in a lame-a$$ planet like Tatooine anyway.

[Alegis]

Not justified, mother or not - in the ways of the Jedi which he aspired to become. Doing so was derailing from that path and becoming sith. (Which made him kill even many more peeps).

[machievelli]

Not justified, mother or not - in the ways of the Jedi which he aspired to become. Doing so was derailing from that path and becoming sith. (Which made him kill even many more peeps).

 

My problem with the 1st trio as it has been called is that Anakin fell too quickly. Like a priest who at 19 suddenly discovers there is some girl he kinda likes that way going from violating his oath of celibacy at 20 to championing a crusade against his own sect at 23. However as people have pointed out, when he had problems instead of talking them over with Yoda and Windu, or even with Obi Wan, he kept it to himself, or talked with the one person it turns out he should not have, Palpatine.

 

I haven't dealt from the inside with Christianity in over 20 years, but the first rule of redemption is being willing to admit you have made a mistake, and correcting that mistake.

 

Any Christians out there disagree with that?

[Nancy Allen``]

Actually there was a scene where a teenage Anakin talks about his problems with Aayla.

 

 

Not sure of the context exactly, but at least it's there.

[RC-1162]

I haven't dealt from the inside with Christianity in over 20 years, but the first rule of redemption is being willing to admit you have made a mistake, and correcting that mistake.

 

Any Christians out there disagree with that?

 

nope. i'm with you on that. the only problem in Anakin's case was that, though he recognised his mistake, the didnt try hard enough to correct it, or at least to prevent it happening again, hence he fell to the DS.