Forgetting the Rebels?

[Guest DarthMaulUK]

I'm not sure how many of you out there play as the Rebels but it seems from the last few Mods i've played and reading though some of the 'requests' for balancing - the Rebels are the ones losing out.

 

Firstly, theres those who play as the Empire and because they just either haven't got the tactical knowledge or simply the fact that they can't grasp the game - direct their anger toward the devs and the Rebels are too powerful etc etc.

 

Then theres the mods. One mod I have recently played, the Rebels just don't stand a chance because they start with hardly any ships and then have to fork out an entire fortune to build a shipyard capable of building capitol ships.

 

One of the main reasons why some of the community seems to struggle is down to the fact they just want to fly around in fleets of Star Destroyers and destroy everything. To win battles, its having that right balance of counter-units to help deal with just about any situation and not blaming the fact on the imbalance of the game.

 

The recent changes with 1.5 have had hordes of you complaining that the X-Wing is now too powerful vs the TIE fighter. It always has and should always be that way. TIEs have no shields and should be destroyed quicker and their cost reflects this.

 

The Rebels are having a tough time of it and if some of you actually take time to play the Rebels, can discover its alot of fun but is extremely hard work in the early tech days.

 

Lets see some of the Mods out there try to address this.

 

DMUK

[popcorn2008]

The recent changes with 1.5 have had hordes of you complaining that the X-Wing is now too powerful vs the TIE fighter. It always has and should always be that way. TIEs have no shields and should be destroyed quicker and their cost reflects this.

You know when you put it like that it really does make sense. Reminds of the TIE Training level of Rebel assault .

 

The problem I have with EaW is it doesnt have enough "features" to help balance the rebel faction. Because of this the devs made a cookie cutter balanced game. In other words every unit has an obvious counter. The game Rebellion offered SO many balancing features that it got a bit overwhelming but at least the Rebels were still the small guys but through sneak tactics they could go toe to toe with the imperials.

 

Empire at War doesnt offer this greater understanding of balancing and that's why it has many fans arguing about the balance. Because of lack of features and such, fans just want it to stay cookie cut, though some may not admit it.

 

Anyways, that's my take on the whole thing . I think that Forces of Corruption may mix up the balancing hopefully by offering up some new game features and odd unit combinations such as were seen in Command and Conquer games, most noticably Yuri's Revenge. I swear that had some great odd balancing, which is all I want to see in an RTS now days lol.

[jedi3112]

Well, I just finished changing all the shield and hull stats to those of the XWA library. I removed the destruction of hardpoints as well. I also increased the Imperial fighter/bomber garrisons to be 3 times as large, and I changed all the ships to spawn unlimited of each, all of this because they are so weak. At the station I changed all the squads to be twice as large for the Rebels and 3 times as large for the Empire. Now I am testing it on GC for the Empire and indeed it's too easy, untill you end up fighting against a station. So I think I will give all the Rebel ships the garrison numbers the Empire previously had (but with infinite fighters). I may later on decide to increase the all the garrisons 3 times again, but replace a third of the fighters with A-Wings or TIE Scouts. At that time I may decide to remove individual fighters, but I may also include escort carries that carry 1 squad of whatever you purchased them for. I also already removed the pop caps (and I may triple the garrisons again to compensate for that, and I still need to increase the ground garrisons to compensate) and there are no weapons that can penetrate shields anymore. To compensate, I doubled the damage for each weapon that could, since I couldn't find those data in XWA. I must say that with these changes battles look wonderfull, too bad my screenshots are too dark, otherwise I would already have posted some. In the end it should be balanced (since I play through GC both as rebels and Empire, making changes as I go and keep playing untill they are balanced). I also removed the space artillery, making the TIE scout special ability next to useless.

 

The problem with the X-Wings is not actually that they're too powerfull, but more that they are too fast for skirmish and as such they get to all the mines too soon. Though I think that has always been a problem. My changes would really upset skirmish mode, but I still have to think of a solution for that problem.

[Darth Anarch]

I agree completely with DarthMaulUK. I don't have any mods installed, although I do look at every one being posted on LucasFiles and FilePlanet, so I have a good idea of what they do, and it seems to me that "everyone" is obsessed with modding huge, invincible capital ships for the Empire. Which is fully in keeping with the spirit of Star Wars, by all means, but it doesn't make for very entertaining gameplay.

 

And another thing: I go to several other forums dedicated not only to EaW, but also Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War, and I'm seeing a lot of the same thing happening in both games' communities. People pick a favourite race/faction, and whenever they lose a game against someone who plays a different race/faction, there are screams of woe regarding either A) How hopelessly and unfairly underpowered "their" race is, or B) How hopelessly and unfairly overpowered the other race/faction is. No one seems willing to consider things like, "Hey, maybe that other guy was just better than me" or "Hmm, maybe I haven't yet mastered all facets of this game's strategy". And the ones who complain the loudest are the ones who rely almost exclusively on [insert unit type here] rushes when said unit is somehow nerfed. You'd think someone had just violated their constitutional rights, not made alterations to a computer game.

 

I realise there's a lot of people who won't agree with me here, but this my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[ImpElite]

Of course the X-wings are supposed to be better than TIE fighters, but when in skirmish they can get to the mines before the imperials if they choose, and Yes I have played the rebels, I play them as much as I do the imperials.

 

I pretty much agree with all of the above.

 

If they could remove the "Lock S-foil" ability then it would be pretty even on both sides.

[shadowsfm]

i never have ploblems with rebs rushing for the mines. maybe theres only noobs around these days

[Apocalypse|TFL]

I wasn't going to reply to this in fear of being labelled as a someone who argues for the hell of it but I assume seeing as I was one of the strongest voices against this patch on this forum, that your post was directed to me as well as others. So I'm replying.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how many of you out there play as the Rebels but it seems from the last few Mods i've played and reading though some of the 'requests' for balancing - the Rebels are the ones losing out.

 

Wrong. The Rebs are indeed overpowered to the point that in a skilled v skilled game Rebs will win everytime. They are certainly not losing out.

 

Firstly, theres those who play as the Empire and because they just either haven't got the tactical knowledge or simply the fact that they can't grasp the game - direct their anger toward the devs and the Rebels are too powerful etc etc.

 

I personally prefer the Rebs but I can't stand a cheap win, which is what it feels like when using them.

 

Also this is the part I feel is directed at me among others. If you ask those who are active in EaW online you may hear that TFL was one of the top 3 space skirmish clans, with only RsH holding their own against us. Plus TFL got so good because we learned the game, we analysed the units for their strengths and weaknesses, I even created a map solely for the purpose of labbing uints. It's fair to say that when it comes to tactics and strategies, I'm fairly good and have some idea of what I am talking about when it comes to balance and unit v unit.

 

In the case of 1.5 people are right to direct their anger at the dev's who admitted to releasing an incomplete patch. The very fact that the devs say this is balanced is beyond belief. As anyone with even a touch of knowledge can see otherwise

 

TFL's trophy room, if anyone cares to take a look; http://tflclan.myfreeforum.org/forum17.php

 

Then theres the mods. One mod I have recently played, the Rebels just don't stand a chance because they start with hardly any ships and then have to fork out an entire fortune to build a shipyard capable of building capitol ships.

 

Mods are made to peoples particular tastes, EaW is a game that should cater for the majority not just the n00bs who can't learn a game without uber cheats and lame rush tactics.

 

One of the main reasons why some of the community seems to struggle is down to the fact they just want to fly around in fleets of Star Destroyers and destroy everything. To win battles, its having that right balance of counter-units to help deal with just about any situation and not blaming the fact on the imbalance of the game.

 

You have 3 types of gamers.

 

1, Skilled/professional - Want to win everygame possible or at least try, will learn the game mechanics and unit data to achieve this. Ultra rivalry and competitiveness is rife with this type.

 

2, Casual gamers - Will play the game at their own pace and their own style, which may include just wanting to play with huge fleets or just even play in a more laid back style. Not particularly keen on rush tactics. May attempt to learn the game to a skilled standard just so they can achieve a skillset to allow them to control the game in such a fashion that they can play in a laid back style.

 

3, N00bs - Morons who spam the lobbies endlessly for no good reason (there is never a reason to spam the lobby anyway). Morons who drop at the first sign of attack, Morons who flame,cuss,insult,use racist remarks and accuse their betters of cheating at every single opportunity. Will also complain endlessly to anyone and everyone how the game sucks and needs changing after every single game they lose. Have no intention of ever learning any game because they think they already own everyone else even though they never win.

 

The devs should be catering for the top two types of gamers and not the moronic kids who have no idea what they are talking about.

 

The recent changes with 1.5 have had hordes of you complaining that the X-Wing is now too powerful vs the TIE fighter. It always has and should always be that way. TIEs have no shields and should be destroyed quicker and their cost reflects this.

 

It isn't that the x-wing are more powerful, it's that they are too quick and Empire have no counter for this. X-wings can grab all the strategic turrets way before Tie's can even get to them. Your being too specific in what should be what considering that if this game was vanila then Rebellion would have no chance whatsoever against the Empire's war machine. There have to be some concessions or a game like this would never work.

 

The Rebels are having a tough time of it and if some of you actually take time to play the Rebels, can discover its alot of fun but is extremely hard work in the early tech days.

 

The Rebels are certainly not having a tough time of it. They have the advantage in any game right off the bat and keep the advantage all the way through techs.

 

Lets see some of the Mods out there try to address this.

 

DMUK

 

Although I would love to see a mod that can return the balance and give more features, it isn't the mod's job to correct a game.

 

 

This is muy opinion and should not be considered a flame or insult to anyone including DarthMaul.

[DS_Vespidbat]

Also this is the part I feel is directed at me among others. If you ask those who are active in EaW online you may hear that TFL was one of the top 3 space skirmish clans, with only RsH holding their own against us. Plus TFL got so good because we learned the game, we analysed the units for their strengths and weaknesses, I even created a map solely for the purpose of labbing uints. It's fair to say that when it comes to tactics and strategies, I'm fairly good and have some idea of what I am talking about when it comes to balance and unit v unit.

 

TFL's trophy room, if anyone cares to take a look; http://tflclan.myfreeforum.org/forum17.php

 

zOmg i said that match didnt count, i was training him. Im kinda curious of what u think is the third best clan

[Apocalypse|TFL]

Oh that match didn't count but someone got the screenie anyway besides we beat you and rico anyway lol

 

[edit] the 3rd best clan at the time?? Thinking back I'm not really sure...

 

You had RsH,TFL,DS,666,Cze if I remember rightly they were the top 5 back in 1.3 cant remember if i am right though

[Guest DarthMaulUK]

In all fairness Apocoalypse you just want the Empire to be all powerful. Moaning about the fact that the X-wings 'are too fast' is ridiculous! They are and theres a reason for it. The Empire never had decent fighters - thats their achilles heel - with Imperial ships being slightly more powerful.

 

If you had a counter for everything in the game, there would be no point in playing it. The Empire developed the TIE Interceptor to counter the X-Wings and A-Wings, which are coming in the expansion.

 

You ramble on about how the Rebels are far too powerful, in every area it seems, but yet theres no actual constructive post outlining this - including in the 1,06 patch thread. Its a case of having to try out new ideas and new ways to play, rather than continue complaining that the rebels are far too powerful - when clearly they are not.

 

DMUK

[gswift]

Okay, i couldn't resist adding my two cents. Rebels can move faster, and the xwings are stronger. Fine. Ties are cheaper and faster to build. So, the empire arrives at the dance a little late, and the mines/turrets are already 'under construction', but if the emps are smart enough to bring enough ships (bombers too) they can take down those structures before they are built, causing a financial blow to the rebs. On the other hand, the rebs are a little stronger and have a fair chance to defend against greater numbers. Same thing applies to Neb vs Acc battles. That sounds ballanced to me....

 

Also, the fast build time of ties allows a leapfrog deployment technique to get to the mine locations VERY quickly. (especially if you have 2 or 3 teammates helping)

 

I've had about the same level of success with either side since 1.5 came out. You'll always find people who specialize with one side or the other and seem unbeatable with that side. For example one of my GDI friends almost totally refuses to use the rebels, and therefore he kinda sucks at using them (or maybe it's the other way around). I think it just depends who you're playing. I seem to recall recent games with/against some of you, and winning/losing with either side.

[Apocalypse|TFL]

Darth, you are wrong. I just tried to post a responce here but there is something up with this forum and yet again I couldn't post and the message was lost.

 

So i'll do a quick list of what i tried to say;

 

1. Delphi said somewhere recently, this game is not a canon representation of the Star Wars universe, so your point about the X-Wings speed being as it should is a mute point.

2. In the game HW2, you could literally counter anything with something yet it worked and some of the strategies made were simply astounding. So you can get the perfectly balanced game and still have a great time.

3. No where in any post have I said I wanted Empire to be all powerful, that would totally defeat the object of criticising balance issues. Try not to twist my words to suit your argument please.

4. Seeing as this site is yours I assume you know I posted an apology thread to Petro way After I posted in this thread so don't you think your attack on me here was a little pointless??

5. Have you even played 1.5? Because you seem to be blissfully unaware of what is smack bang infront of your face. Yes my opinion has changed somewhat over the course of last night but it doesn't change the fact that Rebs are still better than Emp. Rebs will always take the immediate lead in any game. And if you haven't seen this then you must have played against some real crap opponents.

 

GSwift, like I said, my opinion has changed hence my apology thread, There are ways round things but there is nothing much you can do about X-Wings getting the turrets/mine first. This was all I tried to say in the 1st place.

[Darth Raptornus]

Imperials having stronger capitals?

Ok, the acc. and vic. cruisers are a bit more powerful then their counterparts, but face a mon cal VS an imp. destroyer (not counting the fighters, of course) and the mon cal will always win.

[Darth Anarch]

Imperials having stronger capitals?

Ok, the acc. and vic. cruisers are a bit more powerful then their counterparts, but face a mon cal VS an imp. destroyer (not counting the fighters, of course) and the mon cal will always win.

Not so. If you keep the ISD pointing at the Mon Cal it can bring all its cannons to bear at once, which will give it greater firepower than the Mon Cal. And yes, the Mon Cal can use its "Reinforce Shields"-ability, but that means its weapons do very little damage for the duration. It's all in how you play the units; you have to bring your strengths to bear against the other player's weak spots.

[Rust_Lord]

Not so. If you keep the ISD pointing at the Mon Cal it can bring all its cannons to bear at once, which will give it greater firepower than the Mon Cal. And yes, the Mon Cal can use its "Reinforce Shields"-ability, but that means its weapons do very little damage for the duration. It's all in how you play the units; you have to bring your strengths to bear against the other player's weak spots.

 

I agree, and in another thread ages ago this was discussed at length with other ship comparisons. However I should point out that this was in a controlled environment and a one on one situation. In battle, with other units and having to manage different things its different. However if you have more than one ISD vs more than one Mon Cal, the rebels will always win. The imperial ships are all stronger only because of their bomber squadrons. If you nullify these the Rebs have the advantage: the Assault frigate is way faster than the VSD and this can be telling. But this has all been covered b4....

 

The rebels as a total force are stronger but the Empire is not so far behind that they cannot compete. APOC has a point but I hope the balance doesnt swing wildly the other way. The proof that there some kind of imbalance is that PG have an intention to make a 1.06 patch. Enuff said. Its interesting to see what peopel post in the 1.06 thread to see what they think will fix the game. I wonder if there are some, like me, who are just putting ideas out there for PG to ponder. I really wonder what people think are the quickest balance fixes?.....

 

I can backup what GSWIFT says about his friend. I am also way more adept at using the empire than the rebs and while a victory with rebs is not a problem, I take casualties, whereas with the empire I can do it unscathed with some luck. Im not saying I could kick the best rebel player, I think I would get owned against a person as equally skilled with the Rebs as i am with the Empire, but DMUk is right when he says that the Empire is receiving alot of attention in the mods. While the Empire should have the greater variety of ships their value should represent their worth. I have played almost all of the mods and the SSD for example is too cheap and quick to build for how powerful they are. I havent played any other of the other uber-ships, I think they arent available yet but all under development. I think the concept of super weapons is pretty sad to be honest hence why I was a bit dubious of the Eclipse making an appearance. If Super ships are going to be put into skirmish maybe the side that fields it should automatically lose if they lost such a collosal military asset.

[Apocalypse|TFL]

I think the concept of super weapons is pretty sad to be honest hence why I was a bit dubious of the Eclipse making an appearance. If Super ships are going to be put into skirmish maybe the side that fields it should automatically lose if they lost such a collosal military asset.

 

 

That is actually a sterling idea but I would make it as an option you can select before you start the game than have it set in code.

[gswift]

GSwift, like I said, my opinion has changed hence my apology thread, There are ways round things but there is nothing much you can do about X-Wings getting the turrets/mine first. This was all I tried to say in the 1st place.

 

Yeah, I just saw that apology post. I didn't mean to flame you, so sorry if it sounded that way above. I was talking to the room in general more than just you. You're entitled to your opinion, even if you're wrong. lol. Just kidding, I couldn't resist.

 

I actually kinda agree with you. However, I see it as the Rebs being easier to use because it's easier to micromanage the smaller number of more powerfull units. Still, I think with proper micro skills, it's about as even as humanly possible without just giving each side the same stuff with different skins (many games call that ballancing).

 

See ya online Apoc.

[wswordsmen]

Yeah, I just saw that apology post. I didn't mean to flame you, so sorry if it sounded that way above. I was talking to the room in general more than just you. You're entitled to your opinion, even if you're wrong. lol. Just kidding, I couldn't resist.

 

I actually kinda agree with you. However, I see it as the Rebs being easier to use because it's easier to micromanage the smaller number of more powerfull units. Still, I think with proper micro skills, it's about as even as humanly possible without just giving each side the same stuff with different skins (many games call that ballancing).

 

See ya online Apoc.

 

Technically that is the best (easiest) way to get a balanced game, and the only way to do it perfectly. Just because it is cheap and not fun does not mean it isn't balanced. But the fact I think in GC the Empire is overpowered in early techs and I will get several people with the opposite opinion means that the game is very closed to balanced.

[Admiral Sith]

Then theres the mods. One mod I have recently played, the Rebels just don't stand a chance because they start with hardly any ships and then have to fork out an entire fortune to build a shipyard capable of building capitol ships.

 

Did it ever occur to you that thats how its SUPPOSED to be? The Rebellion was a absolutly tiny faction, taking on a organization that spanned the entire galaxy. An organization that focused on its military might, and that had had many years to build its forces.

 

And TIE Fighters were FAST, the only ships faster were TIE Intercepters, Defenders, and A-Wings. They were certainly faster than X-Wing, even with their S-Foils closed.

 

The Empire had superior weapons, better ships, much better training, better pilots, fighters that had waay more speed and maneuverability, and an entire galaxys worth of resources to draw on. The largest ships the Rebellion had were Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, and even those required an advantage of at least 2 to 1 to win against and Imperial Star Destroyer. Plus, Mon Cal ships were much fewer and harder to obtain than ISDs.

[wswordsmen]

That is totally whacked physics. The tie fighters weird shape would never let it fly that fast in atmoshere, and it would produce tons of drag, while the X wing is actully a decent ship in atmoshere. The statistics of star wars are just as messed up as the plot.

 

Quote from Thrawn triligy

 

"He could feel the deceleration as energy shifted away from the engines"

 

How would he decelerate there is nothing to stop him what would happen is his rate of accleration would decline.

 

And the rebel had way superior fighters shield/wepons>speed.

 

And one last thing gameplay>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>realism

[Admiral Sith]

That is totally whacked physics. The tie fighters weird shape would never let it fly that fast in atmoshere, and it would produce tons of drag, while the X wing is actully a decent ship in atmoshere

 

We arent talking about atmospheric flight. They are quite bad in the atmosphere, but in space they are almost unmatched in Speed, Maneuverability, and Pilot skill.

[wswordsmen]

Anything can go almost any speed in space, the only limit is at what point the hull falls apart, and when you run out of fuel to accelerate with or the theory of relativity which ever affects you first. Except in star wars where apparently space has ether or something like that but in star wars Space =/=Vacuum. And many about every cannon sorce says your wrong on piolt skill.

 

As I said Star Wars is messed up in any attempt to put realism on it.

 

Once again

 

Gameplay>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Realism

 

goes many times over for star wars

[Rust_Lord]

TIE fighters should be faster than X-wings...they are supposed to be in the SW universe but they should be as tough as fresh doggy doo, because thats what tie fighters are. The Empire does have more resources and better capital ships but the strength of the Rebels was in their starfighters....they did most of the fighting, but in EaW rebel starfighters are not much better than the Imperial fighters. They should be rebels main punch with cruisers keepings Imperial capital ships busy. As for pilot skill I thought for a long time the Imperials would have a better standard of pilot than the Empire considering they would run the academies. But there is no substitute like experience and Rebel pilots, because of the fewer number, would see more action and hence have more experience. There would be plenty of places in the Empire that would see no action, or very infrequent action and even if they had some great graduate of the Imperial Naval Academy or whatever, he is still a noob and if some hardened ace came out of hyperspace with a bunch of buddies, I know who my bet would be on. Its like pitting such a graduate against Chuck Yeager or Werner Molders etc. The Vet is going to win. And the Rebs would be smart enough to pick their battles. They had that luxury.

But yeah....physics goes out the window in most sci fi stuff

[YertyL]

Did it ever occur to you that thats how its SUPPOSED to be? The Rebellion was a absolutly tiny faction, taking on a organization that spanned the entire galaxy. An organization that focused on its military might, and that had had many years to build its forces.

 

And TIE Fighters were FAST, the only ships faster were TIE Intercepters, Defenders, and A-Wings. They were certainly faster than X-Wing, even with their S-Foils closed.

 

The Empire had superior weapons, better ships, much better training, better pilots, fighters that had waay more speed and maneuverability, and an entire galaxys worth of resources to draw on. The largest ships the Rebellion had were Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, and even those required an advantage of at least 2 to 1 to win against and Imperial Star Destroyer. Plus, Mon Cal ships were much fewer and harder to obtain than ISDs.

In that case, why don't you just write "Empire is SUPPOSED to always win!" ?

Many if not most of the Rebel soldiers were former Imperials, and most of them had more experience than the average TIE fighter pilot (as mentioned above).

While the Empire did have the superior researching capabilities, the Rebel alliance had many alien technologys to draw upon - the classic example would be the Mon Calamari cruiser.

And if the 2 to 1 ratio argument is true, how do you explain that only about 4 Mon Cals (some of which were even blasted away later) lasted that long against about 50-100 SDs at Endor? (and even managed to lower the SSDs shields and destroy at least one regular SD)

The problem is that the main advantages of the Rebel alliance, the support of the general populace and the ability to hide and quickly hit undefended facilities, is hardly depitcable in an RTS game - thus, in the end I'd also say gameplay >> realism - altough I'm not quite sure what the "realism" would be

[Apocalypse|TFL]

This is not a scientific education thread.

 

Out of all the points raised here, Rust Lord and Admiral Sith are the ones who are spot on. Tie Fighters are faster than X-Wings especially in space, X-Wings beat Tie Fighters in weapon/shield/hyperdrive stakes. So in a head to head the Tie was always at the disadvantage but not because of speed.

 

50-100 Isd's in the Battle for Endor? I somewhat doubt it but either way, the Rebellion fleet didn't know the Empire fleet was there, remember Ackbar 'It's a trap!' moving futher along that point, the reason the Mon Cal's lasted so long was they moved their cap ships right into the mix of it meaning Isd's were limited to targets as other Isd's would be in the way. Also, bringing down the SSD was sheer fluke as an A-Wing pilot lost control and hit the bridge square on. The shield Generators on the Isd's or SSD was notoriously easy to hit and was one of the biggest flaws in the Isd's design.

 

As with feeling acceleration or deceleration, almost all SW ships had something called a 'gravity compensator' which simulated Gravity in the cockpit or stabilised gravity in the bigger ships. In the fighters this was a necessary thing so the pilot could 'feel' the ship when flying in space.

 

Yes I am a Star Wars geek and I am proud

 

In the end, the Rebellion won because they had hero characters that could do the impossible and the Empire's arrogance was it's undoing. One of the biggest reason why Thrawn was such an amazing leader was he never underestimated his enemy (except the one time which also ended up his downfall) and didn't have a trace of arrogance.