North Korea says nuclear test successful.

[Ray Jones]

There's no bomb. Otherwise he wouldn't make it this big news and all. If, then he'd just tested it, and everybody would have noticed it without him making a big deal out of it. And just because someone has "nuclear technology" doesn't mean he has "nuclear weapon technology".

[Windu Chi]

True. There's a time to act like a Jedi and a time to be decisive, and when the time comes you must act decisive. Of course people will criticise no matter what happens.

It's definitely time to act like the Jedi exile, during the Mandalorian War.

[Windu Chi]

There's no bomb. Otherwise he wouldn't make it this big news and all. If, then he'd just tested it, and everybody would have noticed it without him making a big deal out of it. And just because someone has "nuclear technology" doesn't mean he has "nuclear weapon technology".

Keep believing that, when you wake up to a bright flash some time in near the future then you will see the truth.

Even if they don't even have the bomb, as you believe as a trick it will give Iran the green light to try their chances at the task.

They are more likely to succeed at developing the bomb.

Iran nuke~al-Qaida nuke

[Q]

Of course Bush chose to act that way three years ago in Iraq and he was demonised more than Hitler ever was. Act and you're branded as a monster, don't act and you're a coward. How do you win?

Good question. I was behind Bush when he ordered the invasion of Iraq because I was led to believe that Iraq possessed WMD's. When this turned out not to be the case, I began to question the validity of the invasion, as many others have. More concrete proof was needed to justify all the death and destruction. At least NK has provided the proof.

 

I do believe that this situation has a very good chance of being solved peacefully. This is THE opportunity for China to shine, to get the international prestige and recognition as a true superpower that it craves. If they can get NK to back down, they're going to be international heroes, and everyone will forget about their flagrant human rights violations, cutthroat trade policies that benefit from near-slave labor and their reckless disregard for the environment. They'd be fools to let such an opportunity pass them by, and they are anything but fools. I forsee a HUGE effort by China to get this crisis resolved with little or no help from the international community.

[Windu Chi]

Good question. I was behind Bush when he ordered the invasion of Iraq because I was led to believe that Iraq possessed WMD's. When this turned out not to be the case, I began to question the validity of the invasion, as many others have. More concrete proof was needed to justify all the death and destruction. At least NK has provided the proof.

 

I do believe that this situation has a very good chance of being solved peacefully. This is THE opportunity for China to shine, to get the international prestige and recognition as a true superpower that it craves. If they can get NK to back down, they're going to be international heroes, and everyone will forget about their flagrant human rights violations, cutthroat trade policies that benefit from near-slave labor and their reckless disregard for the environment. They'd be fools to let such an opportunity pass them by, and they are anything but fools. I forsee a HUGE effort by China to get this crisis resolved with little or no help from the international community.

I don't trust China, I don't believe they will do a damn thing.

[Q]

I don't trust China, I don't believe they will do a damn thing.

I don't trust them either, and I don't pretend to know what they think. I only know how I would view and deal with this situation if I were in their position. I see this as a golden opportunity for political advancement, and I can't help but think that they see the same thing. It's right in front of them. Almost as if it were made to order...

[Ray Jones]

Keep believing that, when you wake up to a bright flash some time in near the future then you will see the truth.

Life ends, one way or another. And truth, well.. I grew up in the GDR during cold war, I know exactly how communism works, and I heard that **** every day. Screw that. I don't fear these kind of things.

 

See, if they going to test a bomb for the first time, why should they tell everybody? They wouldn't even know it's gonna work, and even if, it's still only one test bomb. So it is pretty much unlikely they build a hundred of them, because they don't know if they gonna work. Next thing is, a test bomb is far from being combat ready. So they have nothing, and at maximum the test was really an a-bomb, which obviously didn't work.

 

All that given, they would endanger the whole project to being raped down by the rest of the world's nations by stupidly bragging about it.

 

Even if they don't even have the bomb, as you believe as a trick it will give Iran the green light to try their chances at the task.

They are more likely to succeed at developing the bomb.

Iran nuke~al-Qaida nuke

If the want to, they will, regardless if North Korea is "succeding" or not. Al Quaida is "cool" enough to go for something like 09/11, why should they give a damn about a non islamic Korea?

[Nancy Allen``]

It's definitely time to act like the Jedi exile, during the Mandalorian War.

 

Now that I'd like to see. Or would I? Certainly it would be my fantasy for have a hero like the Exile resolve the situation. The question is whether or not someone like the Exile would quality as being the right woman for the task.

 

Good question. I was behind Bush when he ordered the invasion of Iraq because I was led to believe that Iraq possessed WMD's. When this turned out not to be the case, I began to question the validity of the invasion, as many others have. More concrete proof was needed to justify all the death and destruction. At least NK has provided the proof.

 

The two biggest problems with Iraq was the way the war was fought and the controversy surrounding it. Bush may like the tanks and planes but that's not the way war is fought anymore. The insurgents proved this when they kicked the Coalition's ass. And the controversy ranges from defying the UN to those Abu Gharib butchers to doubts and hypocracy over weapons of mass destruction.

[Windu Chi]

If the want to, they will, regardless if North Korea is "succeding" or not. Al Quaida is "cool" enough to go for something like 09/11, why should they give a damn about a non islamic Korea?

I was saying that if UN and the US does nothing then Iran will think it is ok to go with their program, because the world won't do nothing if they do.

 

 

Life ends, one way or another. And truth, well.. I grew up in the GDR during cold war, I know exactly how communism works, and I heard that **** every day. Screw that. I don't fear these kind of things.

I see you don't give a damn if World War 3 happen, because of the cry wolf scenario in your past.

[Windu Chi]

Now that I'd like to see. Or would I? Certainly it would be my fantasy for have a hero like the Exile resolve the situation. The question is whether or not someone like the Exile would quality as being the right woman for the task.

There seem to be no one on this planet like the Exile, the possible ones are already dead or dying now.

The leaders are cowards and the heros are dead and dying.

[Ray Jones]

I was saying that if UN and the US does nothing then Iran will think it is ok to go with their program, because the world won't do nothing if they do.

And I say they don't care what the UN says, and even less about what the US says. So they will go on with their program, because if they'd listen to the UN they wouldn't have started a nuclear program in the first place.

 

I see you don't give a damn if World War 3 happen, because of the cry wolf scenario in your past.

No. Firstly I just don't see a WWIII in the "nazi vs the others" style and secondly, and I don't see a nuclear war, because if anyone (korea if you want) dares to drop a nuke over let's say somewhere in europe, I'm pretty sure at least one is flying back to them, we know that and they know that.

[Windu Chi]

And I say they don't care what the UN says, and even less about what the US says. So they will go on with their program, because if they'd listen to the UN they wouldn't have started a nuclear program in the first place.

 

No. Firstly I just don't see a WWIII in the "nazi vs the others" style and secondly, and I don't see a nuclear war, because if anyone (korea if you want) dares to drop a nuke over let's say somewhere in europe, I'm pretty sure at least one is flying back to them, we know that and they know that.

Ok! I understand what you mean.

[swphreak]

Hmm... seeing as how N.K. test missiles got nowhere near the U.S., I'm not that worried yet. Plus, I'd like to think NORAD would be able to detect an ICBM and could shoot it down...

 

As for whether or not N.K. is telling the truth, I'd like to see some sort of evidence before I believe anything N.K. says.

[Ray Jones]

You do know that there's a whole wide world surrounding the U.S., and some places are located a bit nearer towards Korea, eh, Phreakey-ma--öööhm--Mister P., sir?

[Q]

Plus, I'd like to think NORAD would be able to detect an ICBM and could shoot it down...

Unfortunately, as far as I know, neither the US nor anyone else currently possesses a weapon system that is capable of reliably intercepting and destroying an ICBM once it's launched. The US has been working on it for >20 years now, and we may see something like that in the near future, but right now we're pretty much screwed.

[toms]

It seem like this society of the world today has gotten soft since WW II, people today keep believing today that diplomatic solutions is going to work with every dictator.

 

Well, that IS the whole reason that the US was created.

But even in WW2 people tried diplomatic solutions. Almost all the european nations tried treaties and appeasment with the nazis.. and the US sat around not getting involved for 3 or 4 years... so i don't think things have changed as much as you think.

 

N.Korea and Iran have been collaborating on nuclear weapons research, so if NK truely does have them then Iran will do shortly.

 

Personally i'm undecided on whether they really have them, or they are trying a Saddam style bluff to try and stop the US moving against them.

 

-

 

I think your wrong on sanctions though.. NK is in a terrible economic state, its basically supported entirely by china. That means china has immense leverage over NK. If china cut off all aid then i'd imagine the country would collapse pretty sharpish.

 

Now that we are all friendly with china, THIS is their chance to improve their image with the world.

 

Thoguh since the UK and US have been selling nuclear tech to all these countries I'm a bit confused about why we are now upset that they are using it.

 

-

 

I also think a war with north korea would be a lot different to a war with iraq.

 

Iraq had an army of about 400,000.

NK has one of over 1million. (plus enough reservists that their army is actually theoretically about double the size of the US)

 

Iraq didn't have any WMDs because we made them destroy them.

NK definately has WMDs.

 

We knew a lot about the iraqi situation due to lots of cia involvement, no fly zones, weapons inspectors (and their cia spies), etc...

We know very little about NK due to it being such a closed country.

 

The iraqi population had a lot more access to external media, and saddam was already in a weak position of power and likely to fall. This made it easy for the cia to convince a lot of his troops not to fight.

The north korean population is poor and hungry, but they have no access to external media and won't be easy for the cia to influence. there is no evidence that KJI is about to fall. They will probably actually fight.

 

Iraq was an easy war, followed by a long insurgency. Korea on the other hand i'd imagine being a very hard, costly war - but probably with less long term problems IF we won.

 

The only real way to try and beat NK without HUGE casualties on our side would be to use long range weapons to try and take out all their military... and that is gonna cause huge civilian casualties, and pretty swiftly get the population behind KJI.

[Jae Onasi]

The two biggest problems with Iraq was the way the war was fought and the controversy surrounding it. Bush may like the tanks and planes but that's not the way war is fought anymore. The insurgents proved this when they kicked the Coalition's ass. And the controversy ranges from defying the UN to those Abu Gharib butchers to doubts and hypocracy over weapons of mass destruction.

 

The insurgents may be a pain in the arse, but they certainly have not kicked the Coalition's arse. We have not surrendered or retreated. War is messy and is not a neat and clean package like it's portrayed in history books. There'll likely continue to be skirmishes for some time, but that doesn't mean we've lost the war.

 

Abu Ghraib--'butchers' implies to me 'killers'. There was torture, to be sure, and plenty of just really stupid crap going on there, but there was no evidence of mass murder to my knowledge.

 

WMDs--hard to tell on that. Since Saddam used nerve gas on the Kurds in the past, I imagine he's got something squirreled away somewhere. It's a big country to search. I don't think Powell would have put his reputation on the line to lie for Bush--I think they actually thought something more was there and they got a bunch of bad intel.

 

The point is moot, though. We're there now, and we need to finish the job stabilizing the country so the Iraqis can make the transition without having their fledgling government flushed down the toilet by a nasty little civil war. We made a mess, we need to accept the responsibility for it and finish the job of cleaning it up now.

 

North Korea--I'm still waiting to hear if it was a real blast, too, though with the zillion satellites we and other countries likely have trained on NK, I don't think we'll have to wait too long for an answer. Neither possibility would surprise me because of how unstable Kim is.

On a tangent, I was almost surprised that Venezuela condemned the test.

[Nancy Allen``]

There seem to be no one on this planet like the Exile, the possible ones are already dead or dying now.

The leaders are cowards and the heros are dead and dying.

 

The only one who would be better in my view than the Exile is Revan, or maybe some other hero from some other piece of fiction. When it comes to real heros I think it's more a case that those who are willing to do something are not in a position to.

 

The insurgents may be a pain in the arse, but they certainly have not kicked the Coalition's arse. We have not surrendered or retreated. War is messy and is not a neat and clean package like it's portrayed in history books. There'll likely continue to be skirmishes for some time, but that doesn't mean we've lost the war.

 

To say they were beaten is going a bit far. No question they were humbled and gives further fuel to the debate that Iraq's another Vietnam.

 

Abu Ghraib--'butchers' implies to me 'killers'. There was torture, to be sure, and plenty of just really stupid crap going on there, but there was no evidence of mass murder to my knowledge.

 

The torture for fun **** perpetrated by Private England and her cohorts was exactly what I was referring to in the Abu Gharib butchery. No, there wasn't mass executions, but what they did was just as bad. It really shows how depraved they are and damages the American military as a whole.

 

The point is moot, though. We're there now, and we need to finish the job stabilizing the country so the Iraqis can make the transition without having their fledgling government flushed down the toilet by a nasty little civil war. We made a mess, we need to accept the responsibility for it and finish the job of cleaning it up now.

 

That's the real bitch of it, and it's something anti Americans can use against the war in Iraq, in that if we pull out like they want then they can say we should have fixed the situation there. The same story with whether or not to go to war with North Korea, the same with acting on terrorist plots after criticism for not being able to prevent 9/11, the ****ers make it so that no matter what is done there's criticism.

[Jae Onasi]

To say they were beaten is going a bit far. No question they were humbled and gives further fuel to the debate that Iraq's another Vietnam.

 

My perspective comes from being a. a military wife and b. a history major (among other things) as an undergrad, so bear with me a bit....

 

We have a mop-up job to do in terms of fighting, and I don't want to minimize soldiers' lives on any side but this is small potatoes compared to what we did the first couple weeks we were there. The major battles are done. Hussein lost decisively. We're just trying to keep the Shi'a from beating the crap out of the Sunnis in retaliation for decades of oppression.

 

Iraq and Vietnam are _very_ different. The reason for war is different, the ideologies driving the decisions are different, the mindset of the people, terrain, psychology, climate, strategy, tactics, regional religion, all different. Even the support of the troops is different. Iraq is just Iraq.

 

The torture for fun **** perpetrated by Private England and her cohorts was exactly what I was referring to in the Abu Gharib butchery. No, there wasn't mass executions, but what they did was just as bad. It really shows how depraved they are and damages the American military as a whole.

 

I'm not trying to minimize that, either, because it was horrible to treat people that way. I just don't want to be inaccurate and accuse them of killing (which is what butchering is) when they did not.

 

That's the real bitch of it, and it's something anti Americans can use against the war in Iraq, in that if we pull out like they want then they can say we should have fixed the situation there. The same story with whether or not to go to war with North Korea, the same with acting on terrorist plots after criticism for not being able to prevent 9/11, the ****ers make it so that no matter what is done there's criticism.

Someone's _always_ going to gripe about any war, because it's not fun. If we were in the SW universe, someone would gripe about Palpatine not being around to Force Lightning people anymore.

[Windu Chi]

Well, that IS the whole reason that the US was created.

But even in WW2 people tried diplomatic solutions. Almost all the european nations tried treaties and appeasment with the nazis.. and the US sat around not getting involved for 3 or 4 years... so i don't think things have changed as much as you think.

Well we will all see what those cowards at the UN do about that tyrant and his regime.

 

N.Korea and Iran have been collaborating on nuclear weapons research, so if NK truely does have them then Iran will do shortly.

That's exactly what I have said.

 

Personally i'm undecided on whether they really have them, or they are trying a Saddam style bluff to try and stop the US moving against them.

Yes, there is always misdirection but I would'nt want the leaders of this world to take a chance with that nut.

 

 

 

I think your wrong on sanctions though.. NK is in a terrible economic state, its basically supported entirely by china. That means china has immense leverage over NK. If china cut off all aid then i'd imagine the country would collapse pretty sharpish.

NK will take any sanctions as an act of war but we will see if North Korea is bluffing.

 

Now that we are all friendly with china, THIS is their chance to improve their image with the world.

We aren't that close with them, Tom.

 

Thoguh since the UK and US have been selling nuclear tech to all these countries I'm a bit confused about why we are now upset that they are using it.

If we don't get upset with that nut having a weapon of annihilation, then we will be dealing with a war of annihilation later.

 

 

 

I also think a war with north korea would be a lot different to a war with iraq.

 

Iraq had an army of about 400,000.

NK has one of over 1million. (plus enough reservists that their army is actually theoretically about double the size of the US)

Yes it will be a real war; Iraq war II was a joke.

The war with the insurgence should be consider similar to the Vietnam War

So, you can say they are fighting two wars in Iraq.

 

We knew a lot about the iraqi situation due to lots of cia involvement, no fly zones, weapons inspectors (and their cia spies), etc...

We know very little about NK due to it being such a closed country.

 

The iraqi population had a lot more access to external media, and saddam was already in a weak position of power and likely to fall. This made it easy for the cia to convince a lot of his troops not to fight.

The north korean population is poor and hungry, but they have no access to external media and won't be easy for the cia to influence. there is no evidence that KJI is about to fall. They will probably actually fight.

Of course they will fight, they are brainwash by that nut.

 

Iraq was an easy war, followed by a long insurgency. Korea on the other hand i'd imagine being a very hard, costly war - but probably with less long term problems IF we won.

That war was easy because that fool Saddam didn't update his military so his forces was no match to US and British militaries.

He wasted resourses on himself that could have went to a modern military force.

 

The only real way to try and beat NK without HUGE casualties on our side would be to use long range weapons to try and take out all their military... and that is gonna cause huge civilian casualties, and pretty swiftly get the population behind KJI.

That will be a foolish option, they will have to invade that country.

It is about time for the UN to spill some blood for world peace.

The other choice will be a complete failure if they do it.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

The north korean population is poor and hungry, but they have no access to external media and won't be easy for the cia to influence. there is no evidence that KJI is about to fall. They will probably actually fight.

As utterly and totally strange as it may sound to us, the North Korean people actually appears to love Kim Jong-Il. They have no better source of information than their own propaganda, and they're told to blame their nation's problems on sanctions imposed by the USA and British.

 

A war with North Korea's as totally out of the question as a war with the USSR was during the Cuban missile crisis. North Korea has one Hell of an army despite their country being a Hell to live in.

[Nancy Allen``]

Wait, arn't dissidents and those who speak out dealt with? Wait, don't tell me, American lies right?

[Windu Chi]

A war with North Korea's as totally out of the question as a war with the USSR was during the Cuban missile crisis. North Korea has one Hell of an army despite their country being a Hell to live in.

So, the world should cower in fear. Huh?

So what the hell is the UN and the US army; a piece of s**t.

We should let this asshole get away with it and do nothing but useless negotiations, that won't go no damn where.

 

It is time to teach that asshole and his evil regime a lesson.

If the UN and the US does nothing to punish that f**ker severely; World War III will be right around the corner because of their complacency.

[Nancy Allen``]

Then of course if we do invade then the same people who bitch and moan about not taking action will bitch and moan because we did. To reply to Jae Onasi's point, I think people try and sabotage the government in demanding one thing then saying they don't want it or saying it should have done something else. Case in point is how there was criticism over September 11, we should have acted. So when there's information of the terrorist hijackings in London action is taken. BAM! The same critics for not taking action now criticise action being taken. Really they need to just piss off because if we had listened to them a lot of people would have died.

[Windu Chi]

Then of course if we do invade then the same people who bitch and moan about not taking action will bitch and moan because we did. To reply to Jae Onasi's point, I think people try and sabotage the government in demanding one thing then saying they don't want it or saying it should have done something else. Case in point is how there was criticism over September 11, we should have acted. So when there's information of the terrorist hijackings in London action is taken. BAM! The same critics for not taking action now criticise action being taken. Really they need to just piss off because if we had listened to them a lot of people would have died.

It is not time for politics this is a serious threat.

I am tired of hearing the two parties bitching in the government over who's fault it is, they have to deal with this nut. NOW!