Jesus Camp - Religion or Brainwashing?

[RobQel-Droma]

Lol, you too.

[LukeDavis93]

As far as us being here, spend some time studying evolutionary biology, and then we can discuss that.

evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so

[Seph]

evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so

Not to sound like a dick, but do you have an answer to where god came from?

 

 

Anyways, watching the movie really was an odd experience, while I'm happy they found something they can accept is fine, it's just they should learn as much as they can about the other side of the arguement so they can make an educated guess instead of their bible is always right. What's unfortunately is that these people who are full of their own religion refuse to see any other side. That being said some of the nicest people I've met were Evangelical but not so extreme.

[Achilles]

evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so

Completely different question. Life origins vs current life forms. Creationism is burdened with the problem of a "prime mover" while abiogenesis is not. Guess which one is statistically more improbable than the other.

[Seph]

Completely different question. Life origins vs current life forms. Creationism is burdened with the problem of a "prime mover" while abiogenesis is not. Guess which one is statistically more improbable than the other.

Let us not forget that in actuality, creationism, evolution, and other religion is just theory... correct me if I'm wrong.

[Samuel Dravis]

That's like saying, "F = GMm/R² (the general gravity equation) is just a theory and therefore it can be questioned." Yeah, it's just a theory. But a theory is a model of reality, and reality doesn't go away if you call a model of it "just a theory." The fact that the equation above is the result of "just a theory" doesn't diminish in the least its usefulness. To deny that it is useful on such grounds is, to be honest, incomprehensible...

 

On the other hand, to say that creationism and other such doctrines are theory (models of reality) is a mistake, because they do not model reality from what is known; they merely either interpret what is known in light of certain extremely vague words from the Bible or simply don't have anything to do with reality in the first place.

[Achilles]

Let us not forget that in actuality, creationism, evolution, and other religion is just theory... correct me if I'm wrong.

Depends on what usage of "theory" we're talking about. It seems quite common to see capital "T" Theory (scientific usage) used interchangeably with lower case "t" theory (lay usage = "an unproved assumption"). This is what you appear to be doing in the post above.

 

Science doesn't have any lower case "t" theories. It doesn't make uneducated guesses. The closest thing it has are hypothesis, and even these are based on facts and must be survive a rigorous process of testing before they are generally accepted.

 

Religion's "explanations" (and all of the trappings that come with it, i.e. "creationism") are just uneducated guesses. So to say that the Theory of Evolution is equivalent to the unproved assumptions of creationism or anything else related to religion is simply incorrect.

 

I hope that helps to clear up any confusion that may exist.

 

Thanks for reading.

[DeadYorick]

I think that religion is what you believe in. I think that people take religion way to far and kill people who aren't part of your religion. I agree with the whole 18+ idea

[Seph]

I feel smarter after reading this

[Kylilin]

evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so

 

 

So, let me break this down.

 

Evolution, or any scientific theory that discusses the emergence of life from non-life, pretty much states that over the course of hundreds of millions of years certain elements in the perfect conditions will come together and create amino acids, those amino acids will come together to form peptides, and so on and so forth...(this is the simplest explanation I can give, of course, it is much more complicated than that).

 

Creationists believe that an invisible man in the sky decided for no apparent reason he was going to snap his fingers and create the earth and all life on it. The earth is only 6,000 years old and men lived on the earth with dinosaurs like on the f'n Flinstones?

 

Which seems more plausible?

[TK-8252]

Creationists believe that an invisible man in the sky decided for no apparent reason he was going to snap his fingers and create the earth and all life on it. The earth is only 6,000 years old and men lived on the earth with dinosaurs like on the f'n Flinstones?

 

Which seems more plausible?

 

And even with the creationist explanation, they never answer the biggest question... who created god?

[Achilles]

(this is the simplest explanation I can give, of course, it is much more complicated than that).

Perhaps this will help.

 

And even with the creationist explanation, they never answer the biggest question... who created god?

Chuck Norris.

[Tyrion]

evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so

 

Evolution deals very little in regards to the origin of life. Instead, it details how the first organisms - prokaryotes - eventually, through the natural selection of advantageous mutations, evolved into the creatures it has now. Whether or not God created the first organism is largely irrelevant to the study of evolution.

 

(Bit of a tangent, but when you hear people say the phrase, "man was created in the image of God", does anyone else take it as an insult to the man upstairs?)

[MeleeMaster]

And even with the creationist explanation, they never answer the biggest question... who created god?

 

If God created time and space and therefore the universe, God himself is not bound to time and space at all.

 

The law that says everything has a beginning and an end only exists because of time and space, and it only applies to things bound by time and space, but God created time and space, which means he is not bound to it in anyway, which completely throws any question of what created God, or whether God had a beginning out the window.

 

So, let me break this down.

 

Creationists believe that an invisible man in the sky decided for no apparent reason he was going to snap his fingers and create the earth and all life on it. The earth is only 6,000 years old and men lived on the earth with dinosaurs like on the f'n Flinstones?

 

For no apparent reason? The Bible states that God created us so he could have a personal relationship with us. And he didn't want a bunch of humans that acted more like robots who would automatically love him because he forced them too (he gave us free will, the choice to love and believe in him or not, and to have control over our own actions, meaning God can't force us to do certain things or think certain thoughts), but rather seeks to have a true personal relationship with us.

 

And to MrWally, sorry if I was one of the people's posts you read before (I don't know when I made that, maybe a year ago) that came across as trying to shove my beliefs down another's throat, and sorry to anyone else who may have interacted with me on those posts, I hope I didn't come across as doing that.

[TK-8252]

If God created time and space and therefore the universe, God himself is not bound to time and space at all.

 

The law that says everything has a beginning and an end only exists because of time and space, and it only applies to things bound by time and space, but God created time and space, which means he is not bound to it in anyway, which completely throws any question of what created God, or whether God had a beginning out the window.

 

I'm sorry but that sounds like a total cop out. For all intents and purposes, your answer is basically like saying "it's magic."

[Kylilin]

 

For no apparent reason? The Bible states that God created us so he could have a personal relationship with us. And he didn't want a bunch of humans that acted more like robots who would automatically love him because he forced them too (he gave us free will, the choice to love and believe in him or not, and to have control over our own actions, meaning God can't force us to do certain things or think certain thoughts), but rather seeks to have a true personal relationship with us.

 

 

I don't mean to sound flippant, so please don't take this the wrong way. But where in the Bible does it say that man was created by God in need of some friends?

[MeleeMaster]

Don't worry, in my post I was probably acting flippant.

 

A better way to put it is God wasn't lonely, for he was all-powerful, meaning he didn't physically or emotionally need humans, but rather, he created us for his pleasure, and he still loves us more than one could possibly imagine, but he does not need us.

 

God created us for the pleasure of us being able to worship him, and for the pleasure of being able to love us and have a relationship with us, and he created us with free will, so that we might have the choice that God may have a true relationship with us.

 

Forgive me for not knowing the bible very well offhand, I am saying this over my overall knowledge I have accumulated about christianity over the years.

 

........................................................................................................

 

The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: "Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you. Jer 31.3

 

God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love Eph 1.4

 

(Reasoning behind verses)

 

God knew and loved you even before He created the world.

God loved you then. God loves you now.

 

(God said...) I don't want your sacrifices--I want your love; I don't want your offerings--I want you to know me. Hos 6.6, LB

 

Some folks think "worshipping God" simply means church and hymns and fancy prayers. Not so!

 

Jesus gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people Titus 2.14a

 

(God said...) Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory Isa 43.7a, KJV

 

(Jesus said...) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Mt 5.16

 

Reason #6: You were created to be one of God's special people. You bear God's name for God's glory!!!

 

"Christ" is a name of God.

As a Christian you bear God's name -- CHRIST-ian.

Your bear Christ's name so that people who know you will think about Christ.

Since you bear Christ's name, it is God's purpose that your lifestyle will reflect His glory unto mankind.

........................................................................................................

 

MrWally already talked about the point of christianity, which was salvation, above. Sorry if I've been talking too aggressively about this, I'm just trying to make a solid point.

 

Here's the site where I found some solid supporting bible verses (they are out of context, but that doesn't change their meaning) http://www.biblebell.org/anthro1.html.

 

@TK

Technically that's your answer. Your question was asked/stated like "Say this creationism did happen, still then, who/what created God?"

 

Creationism explains the creation of the universe bible-wise. And creationism says that God was there before anything existed and before he created the universe.

 

So going by the creationism fact that he was there before anything at all existed and that he created the universe, that is the answer to why God didn't need creation, and why he was always there.

[Astrotoy7]

A most learned contemporary Theologian was noted for giving these instructions to the teachers studying under him.

 

ALL religious texts should have put in their preface/foreward..(Kuran, Torah, Bible etc)

 

"Before you read the rest of this text, these are the messages you are actually meant to get out of it :

 

1. Love Thy Neighbour

 

2. Treat others as you expect to be treated

 

3. Be forgiving

 

4. Please replace the book entitled "The Old Testament"(or its equivalent) with the Laws & Statutes binding the region you currently live in

 

>>Anything else you read into this book is entirely and unequivocally overshadowed by the the above listed 4 points. Any notion you may get from any phrase in this text is also automatically cancelled out if not in agreeance with the above 4 points

 

>>The Book of Revelation(and its equivalents) was a cleverly written indictment against Roman subjugation of the early Christian Church. Please do not interpret it literally and live in fear of horseman and dragons. There is a multitude of evidence to support this(see appendix for further readings)

 

Live by the above 4 credos and the world will be a wonderful place, I promise."

 

I think if you read any dogma without knowing the above, and the historical context in which the text was originally created(and subsequently altered), you are doing a great job at keeping yourself and those around you ignorant.

 

 

mtfbwya

[Kylilin]

A most learned contemporary Theologian was noted for giving these instructions to the teachers studying under him.

 

ALL religious texts should have put in their preface/foreward..(Kuran, Torah, Bible etc)

 

"Before you read the rest of this text, these are the messages you are actually meant to get out of it :

 

1. Love Thy Neighbour

 

2. Treat others as you expect to be treated

 

3. Be forgiving

 

4. Please replace the book entitled "The Old Testament"(or its equivalent) with the Laws & Statutes binding the region you currently live in

 

>>Anything else you read into this book is entirely and unequivocally overshadowed by the the above listed 4 points. Any notion you may get from any phrase in this text is also automatically cancelled out if not in agreeance with the above 4 points

 

>>The Book of Revelation(and its equivalents) was a cleverly written indictment against Roman subjugation of the early Christian Church. Please do not interpret it literally and live in fear of horseman and dragons. There is a multitude of evidence to support this(see appendix for further readings)

 

Live by the above 4 credos and the world will be a wonderful place, I promise."

 

I think if you read any dogma without knowing the above, and the historical context in which the text was originally created(and subsequently altered), you are doing a great job at keeping yourself and those around you ignorant.

 

 

mtfbwya

 

I totally agree with this notion, I beleve people become so wrapped up in the story of each religious text, they lose the message, which was rather eloquently stated in the post I quoted. I mean, isn't the one true basic message of most religions to "stop being so damn mean to other people and try to enjoy your life, and if you don't know how to do that, here's a book of instructions on how to"? Seriuosly, when you boil it down, don't they all pretty much say that? Now, if I've managed to accomplish this without going to Church every Sunday, why do I even need the Bible or the Torah or the Koran or the Talmud?

[Achilles]

I totally agree with this notion, I beleve people become so wrapped up in the story of each religious text, they lose the message, which was rather eloquently stated in the post I quoted. I mean, isn't the one true basic message of most religions to "stop being so damn mean to other people and try to enjoy your life, and if you don't know how to do that, here's a book of instructions on how to"? Seriuosly, when you boil it down, don't they all pretty much say that? Now, if I've managed to accomplish this without going to Church every Sunday, why do I even need the Bible or the Torah or the Koran or the Talmud?

How do you explain the parts that don't say that? Yes, that message is included in all of those texts, but there are other messages as well. Messages that often contradict one another.