Ethics of Brainwashing Revan

[SilentScope001]

Here lies something that makes me wonder...

 

Always the Jedi has done good, always the Jedi take prisonsers, always they seek to redeem...Always they were good.

 

But not in K1. They have committied a very evil, and DS Act. Something, I think, not even the Sith would do (because they value strength, and what the Jedi Council did wasn't exactly showing how strong they were).

 

That is the erasing of Revan's memory, reprogramming him to be a loyal servant of the Republic. They did so because they want to find the Star Forge, and it was a good idea to begin with...

 

But if so, why not do it for every single DSer they capture? Just play with their mind, and turn them to become LS. Why only Revan?

 

And, destroying personalities because they disagree with your thoughts seem wrong. At least the Sith would rather let you keep your idenity...but the Jedi would rather that you act as a cog in the machine, doing your dues to the society, and not show any sign of humanity and personality, as doing so would make you feel "partial" to some group or another.

 

Plus, in K2, Kreia talked about how the Jedi Council did not see the truth, even when it was in front of them. Instead of trying to find the reasons that Revan fell to the DS, they just turned away...like the Jedi Council turned away from The Exile when he has "fallen".

 

Lastly, by capturing Revan and erasing his memory, they were responsible for two deeds: 1) letting Malak run the Sith Empire who would later destroy Telos and Dantoonie, as well as do other barbaric deeds, and 2) preventing Revan from completing his plan to save the galaxy from the True Sith.

 

I wonder if, prehaps, this "wrong-ness" of having the memory be wiped was used to inspire K2's protrayal of how wrong the Jedi Council was, and giving the Jedi who fought in the Mandalorain Wars a more sympatheic view...or was maybe just a prelude.

 

Of course, is it wrong? Is it evil? DS? Or am I overreacting? Your thoughts?

[Point Man]

I don't think the Jedi brainwashed Revan. Sure, they wanted to capture him and interrogate him, but they did not expect Malak would try to kill him. His injuries from the attack and the subsequent Force bonding with Bastila wiped away his memories. The Jedi would have preferred getting the information directly from Revan, instead of having to go through the trouble of sending him on a quest for them. However, when Revan had the memory loss, they were forced into the alternate plan. Was it ethical? Sure. The Jedi did not destroy Revan's personality. Malak did that. The Jedi just used the situation to help win the war.

[Totenkopf]

I got the impression that the trauma from Revan's battle basically gave him the equivalent of amnesia. It was from there that the JC took the liberty of developing a new identity for him in the hopes that there was enough of Revan still intact to get him to undertake the quest for the SF again. War often forces people to take desperate gambles. It was an arguably amoral thing to do in response to a life-or-death situation writ large.

 

As to the cog theory, remember that the Sith would "merely" take your life, not your indentity, less it too somehow served their greater purpose to do otherwise.

[Emperor Devon]

Even if they had destroyed his memory, it still would have been. Saving a galaxy of hundreds of trillions of people is worth just one losing his mind.

[Vaelastraz]

I wonder how Revan could have been captured if it wasn't for Malak. He would have destroyed the jedi, but even if not, he would not allow them to capture him alive. So if the Jedi did not foresee Malak's betrayal, their plan was foolish.

 

I always found it odd though, that a turbo laster blast damages the mind instead of the body. Therefore i believe the jedi took advantage of the situation and did brainwash Revan in his weakened state.

 

Conclusion: The Jedi are foolish and evil.

[Rabish Bini]

I agree wit Vael. Burn the Jedi, the Sith shall rule. Muahahahaha. But seriously, I think you are not overreacting. The Jedi are fools who, when someone does something that seems evil (Exile 4 example) they just turn away from them. Master Kavar (Or is it Zez Kai-Ell?) states that the Jedi council were afraid of facing the truth. Dang Jedi.

[Diego Varen]

I agree wit Vael. Burn the Jedi, the Sith shall rule. Muahahahaha. But seriously, I think you are not overreacting. The Jedi are fools who, when someone does something that seems evil (Exile 4 example) they just turn away from them. Master Kavar (Or is it Zez Kai-Ell?) states that the Jedi council were afraid of facing the truth. Dang Jedi.

 

I believe that was Zez who said that.

[Anakin Skywalker]

It was Zez Kai Ell that said that.... and I agree the Jedi are foolish for turning away their chances of really helping people. Seriously in KotOR 1 had they left Revan's mind and interagated him, then they could have saved thousands of lives, or if they had joined to fight the Mandalorians, maybe Revan and Malak wouldn't have fallen, saving more than just the lives that were lost in the Mandalorian Wars.

[Diego Varen]

It was Zez Kai Ell that said that.... and I agree the Jedi are foolish for turning away their chances of really helping people. Seriously in KotOR 1 had they left Revan's mind and interagated him, then they could have saved thousands of lives, or if they had joined to fight the Mandalorians, maybe Revan and Malak wouldn't have fallen, saving more than just the lives that were lost in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

I sometimes think that it would have been better to help the Republic, before Revan left, but it could have been worse. Perhaps if the Jedi found out that the Mandalorians were beginning taking over planets, perhaps the Mandalorian Wars wouldn't happen (I think the Mandalorian Wars is similar to the second World War).

[Allronix]

It was a definite case of no win scenario.

 

They gave Bastila a token order to try and capture Revan, but didn't actually expect she WOULD. They figured that Revan would fight to the death, and they would build a pyre, do the equivilent of crossing themselves, and console Bastila it wasn't her fault.

 

So, they have a brain-damaged Dark Lord they never planned to have in the first place. Lots of memories and information they want and no real way to get it. What's in Revan's head will save their arse, leading them to the big secret weapon Revan was using. Now, their options are...

 

1) Pull the plug. That deprives them of what they want and possibly dooms the Order.

 

2) Keep Revan as a damaged husk, neither alive or dead. Safest option, but less chance of getting their information, and even more dodgy ethically.

 

3) Try to restore Revan to health. About as safe as playing dodgeball with a thermal detonator. Sure, they get their information, but they would also have one aware and pissed off Sith Lord. (This may not have been an actual option, seeing as there was a lot of damage to Revan's mind anyway).

 

4) Program a new ID, thank the Force Revan favored a mask, and put the result on an industrial-strength leash. Bastila would use Revan like a damaged holocron, pulling leads from those half-recalled memories. Plus, as a "reformed" smuggler or raw recruit, it wouldn't attract so much attention and has the benefit of said recruit not able to take a leak without asking permission first.

 

The Jedi didn't really care about the True Sith at the time. Like the Republic faced with the Mandalorians, their attention was focused on the immediate threat (which makes Bastila's swipe at Carth rich with dramatic irony). Revan was converting at a rate not seen since Exar Kun, and the Jedi were being hunted. Apparantly, it was only in retrospect that a failed Jedi apprentice/Republic soldier (Mical) bothered put together any pattern to Revan's attack.

 

And Malak was probably not educated about the True Sith. If he did, he didn't show that he cared much. With Revan gone, Malak just rampaged, favoring not the surgical strikes Revan did, but things like wholesale bombing. (That's how they likely knew Telos was Malak's handiwork in the first place).

 

The most disturbing question I have is what the Council had planned for their creation if things hadn't gone to hell on the Endar Spire and the Star Forge was found by other means. Would they have turned Revan into the Republic, washing their hands of the matter, and leaving the job of executing the ex-Sith to the Senate? Would they have found a way to keep Revan a prisoner in a Jedi Enclave? Would they have conscripted him/her to be in the Service Corps?

[JawaJoey]

I got the impression that the trauma from Revan's battle basically gave him the equivalent of amnesia. It was from there that the JC took the liberty of developing a new identity for him in the hopes that there was enough of Revan still intact to get him to undertake the quest for the SF again. War often forces people to take desperate gambles. It was an arguably amoral thing to do in response to a life-or-death situation writ large.

 

QFT.

 

 

About Bastila, she was just part of the Jedi strike team sent to face Revan. The only reason Bastila was on the team was because of her Battle Mediation, which was apparently the thing that made it possible for them to get on board Revan's ship.

 

I'm guessing their plan was to try and capture Revan, but since that probably wouldn't work, try and kill him, even though that probably wouldn't work either, but they were desperate.

[The Sith'ari]

It was Zez Kai Ell that said that.... and I agree the Jedi are foolish for turning away their chances of really helping people. Seriously in KotOR 1 had they left Revan's mind and interagated him, then they could have saved thousands of lives, or if they had joined to fight the Mandalorians, maybe Revan and Malak wouldn't have fallen, saving more than just the lives that were lost in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

There's no telling.

 

True, if the JC did agree to fight, then as Canderous said it'd be highly possible that Master Kavar would be the lead the republic against the Mandalorians, then maybe Revan wouldn't stumble on Malachor and wouldn't have fallen.

 

But quoting Bastila, the JC saw something beyond the Mandalorian threat- something made the Mandalorians attack. It could be the true sith now that we're through K2. I'd venture that the JC was afraid that even if they defeated the Mandalorians, they'd have exhausted themselves when the real threat took its strike. If that became true, the galaxy would fall all because the JC chose to go into war.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Maybe, but if the JC did, then they could have kept their best fighters away from the lines, and saved them for the "True Sith".

[The Sith'ari]

Revan only barely won the war by tactics, sacraficing countless jedi and soldiers in Malachor. Do you think a mediocre jedi army could have defeated the Mandalorians? Probably only with very extraordinary tactics, and perhaps sacraficing many. Anyhow, the chance of winning would be slim and the war against the true sith wouldnt even have to begin.

 

Just my very bit of opinion.

[Jediphile]

I wonder if, prehaps, this "wrong-ness" of having the memory be wiped was used to inspire K2's protrayal of how wrong the Jedi Council was, and giving the Jedi who fought in the Mandalorain Wars a more sympatheic view...or was maybe just a prelude.

 

I think you're right in that speculation. It always struck me as odd that someone like Vandar would go along with what the jedi council did to Revan. However you look at it, reprogramming someone to be your slave and use you to unveil the plans of your allies is not a charitable act in any event.

 

I don't see most of the jedi council, particularly people like Vandar or Zez-Kai Ell going along with it, unless they lost the vote, and then had to either accept and support it or else to abandon the council. Vrook and Atris would have no problem with it, though.

 

And while it might have been completely necessary, the jedi being at the end of their wits and the Republic falling apart, that still doesn't justify it morally. It's still an amoral act.

 

When I play the part, where you face Malak on the Leviathan, and Revan finally learns the truth, I always tell Bastila that she and the jedi are no better than the sith, because it's exactly the sort of manipulative, evil act that the sith would have committed. The Republic's dire situation may explain why they did it, but it does not morally justify it. If it's wrong, then it's wrong. Period.

[Rabish Bini]

The way you put it Jediphile, you cannot word it any better, I agree with you totally. And where it says that Vandar or Zez had to support or leave, Zez did leave in the end.

[stoffe]

"There is no pragmatism, there is ethics" was not part of the Jedi Code you get fed during the game.

 

The responsibility of the Jedi Council was the continued existence of the Jedi Order first and foremost. All other priorities and duties are secondary. They were faced with the choice of either being pragmatic or go down to history as the last Jedi Council, the ones who led the order to extinction, and made the only choice they could, given the situation.

 

The Jedi are a paramilitary peacekeeping force that, when diplomacy and negotiations fail favor use of lethal force rather than to subdue the opponents, this in a galaxy where stun weapons apparently are quite common. The average Jedi likely have killed more sentients during their life than most other galactic citizens, an act that in itself isn't very moral. Who or what you are killing in the name of might be a mitigating circumstance, but it doesn't change the fact that the Jedi on average have plenty of blood on their hands, even if it was shed in the name of the greater good.

 

Thus it would stand to reason that in a situation as dire as the imminent collapse of the Jedi order, brought about by one of their own who has apparently turned from them and chosen to embody the philosophy of their ancient mortal enemy, the end would justify the means as well. In particular when they have the leader of their enemy at their mercy. It was the most practical way of making Revan pay for her crime while still getting some good from it.

 

The Jedi apparently don't believe in executing helpless prisoners, so that would be out of the question. They could give Revan a lightsaber and make her face off against the whole Jedi Council at once and kill her "honorably" that way, but what would that accomplish other than potential casualties on the council as well? They could imprison her for life for her crimes, but what would that accomplish, the Sith would crush the Republic soon enough anyway under Malak's lead. And since Revan had apparently already written off the Republic and Jedi as a lost cause that needed to be dealt with for the good of the galaxy she would not reveal anything under interrogation, provided she could remember it due to her injuries.

 

Thus I see it as a punishment of a sort. Revan is sentenced to undo the damage she has done and end the threat of the organization she has created, or die trying. Consent is irrelevant in that context: you aren't usually asked if you agree before they throw you in jail for a crime you have committed, so why would they need Revan to be doing it from her free will when given this punishment?

 

Since the Jedi Order appears to have been given mandate by the Republic to handle law enforcement within their own ranks and deal with any wayward members the Jedi Council would be the proper legal instance to decide about such a punishment for the crimed Revan committed against the Order and the Republic.

[Ambrose]

A lot of the arguments here seem to be based off of the "Revan was evil when he became a Sith Lord" stance. Admittedly, that was my stance after playing K1, which is to be expected since you have Bastila and Carth babbling to you the whole time, but after playing TSL and hearing what Kreia had to say on the matter of Revan, my impression was that he was not evil as a Sith Lord. After doing a K1 run-through and really diving into the dialogues with Canderous, it became even more apparent (to me) that Revan was NEVER the monster the Jedi council made him out to be, even when he was the Dark Lord.

 

I'm paraphrasing here, but after if you ask Kreia why Revan FELL to the dark side, she responds with something like, "Fall? The difference between a 'fall' and a 'sacrifice' is often difficult to discern. I think Revan understood that."

 

There is, of course, no doubt that Malak was evil. Unless I'm quite mistaken, it was Malak who destroyed Telos, Taris, and Dantooine. So my current opinion is that Revan was never evil.

 

Just some thinking material. Perhaps restoring Revan as his former self would not have been such a bad thing.

[stoffe]

A lot of the arguments here seem to be based off of the "Revan was evil when he became a Sith Lord" stance. Admittedly, that was my stance after playing K1, which is to be expected since you have Bastila and Carth babbling to you the whole time, but after playing TSL and hearing what Kreia had to say on the matter of Revan, my impression was that he was not evil as a Sith Lord.

 

That depends on how you define evil.

 

During the Mandalorian Wars Revan appears to have come to believe that the end justifies the means no matter what. If it takes...

• turning to the Dark Side of the Force...
  
• torturing other force users until they break and turn to the Dark Side as well...
  
• betraying the trust of the organization she's sworn to protect and uphold the ideals of...
  
• willingly sacrificing the few so that the many can have an easier time...
  
• robbing people and planets of their right to govern themselves since they do not understand the threat and know what you do...
  

...in order to save the galaxy as a whole from an unseen threat looming in the shadows, then so be it. Does that make someone evil? Depends on who you ask.

 

Revan most likely did not think it made her evil, just like most sane people (and a fair deal of insane ones) do not consider themselves evil even if they commit atrocities. If you ask an imprisoned and tortured Jedi before he snaps, or a conquered population, you might get another answer. Even if all of it was made with good intent, there is the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If you start to think and act like your enemy in order to stop them, what difference does it make in the end who wins?

[Jediphile]

Ah, but if those acts are evil, does that make it justifiable to do the sort of thing that the council did?

 

Is it okay only because they did it to Revan or would it be okay to do to anyone? Because if the moral defense that is that it was necessary under the circumstances, then it really shouldn't matter whether Revan or anyone else was the target, should it? If the position is that the jedi order is justified because the alternative is the fall of the Republic, then it doesn't matter who it's done to. But of course, once you go there, it becomes difficult to exclude ANY act. Is it okay to kill thousands of innocents to save the Republic? Sure it is - preserving the Republic and the jedi order is the higher goal, so it doesn't matter what you have to do to for the sake of that goal. Then even torture becomes accepted. In fact, anything does - no act, no matter how vile, is too harsh, because the higher goal always justifies it.

 

But naturally, this is precisely the very argument that despots and oppressors have used to justify their actions over the years. And, of course, it also begs the question of what what exactly makes the Republic and the jedi order worth preserving, if you're willing to sacrifice the higher ideals they were based on to save the mere existence of these institutions themselves.

 

But here's the real dilemma: Revan did so many horrible and unspeakable acts, right? Sure he did. Was the order justified in using and manipulating him for that reason? Is so, then why? Because Revan was evil and deserved this punishment?

 

Ah, but the morality of an act is not based on how moral or unethical the person or persons you do something towards are - it's based entirely on how ethical your own act is. Whether you torture an innocent or a villain doesn't matter - it's wrong either way, because the act alone says something about who you are and the lengths you're willing to go to.

 

And consider this: Even if Revan was evil and deserved it, that still doesn't justify anything. Why? Because it turns out that Revan was also doing what he did for a higher goal - to save the Republic from the true Sith. If you argue that Revan deserved it for his evil acts and that this therefore washes the jedi free of any blame, then isn't Revan also absolved for his dark acts on the basis that he did it all to save the Republic? Of course, the jedi might not realise this, but it doesn't matter, because, as we just established, if you have ANY moral context to justify your act, then what you did is acceptable. And in that case, the jedi are indeed committing the worst form of hypocrisy, when they do what they do to Revan on the basis that it serves some higher purpose that justifies it, even as they deny Revan the very same argument to justify his actions.

 

No, either way, the jedi are hypocritical and arrogant in the extreme. They're just plain wrong, because their own actions really are no better than Revan's. And that being the case, what basis do they have for condemning Revan for his choices? None. Because by doing what they did to him, they abandoned their own moral code, in which case they have no right to blame anyone else for behaving immorally, since they don't even do so themselves when it comes right down to it.

[Ambrose]

Let's remember that in his conquest of Republic worlds, Revan was defending the galaxy from a greater evil. As wookieepedia puts it in its article about Revan:

 

Darth Revan's brutally efficient invasion was part of a complex plan to secure the Galaxy from a long-hidden threat known as the "True Sith".

 

And

 

Revan soon discovered the Trayus Academy, an ancient relic of the "True Sith". What actually transpired as Revan entered the Academy's halls is unknown—what is certain is that there, Revan discovered the continued existence of the "True Sith", long thought vanished, and the threat that they still presented to the Galaxy. He came to the conclusion that the Republic as it stood was ill-equipped to defend the Galaxy from such a potent enemy and, as such, a new government would need to rise in its place; an empire founded upon the Sith teachings. He would attempt to save the Galaxy through conquest. In that moment, Revan fully abandoned the teachings of the Jedi, adopting the title of Dark Lord of the Sith and becoming Darth Revan. He took Malak, now under the name of Darth Malak, as his Sith apprentice.

 

I think this makes it clear. Revan's war was fought to instate a galactic order capable of fending off this threat to the galaxy itself. Like Kreia said, his "fall" was more of a "sacrifice."

 

When Malak took charge, though, it became a war of mere conquest and a power-grab. If Malak hadn't turned on his master, or if the Jedi had restored Revan as his former self, then Revan may have arguably had a perfectly just cause to be fighting for, AS Revan.

[SilentScope001]

Jediphile and stoffe, thanks for your responses. Both seem enlightening and interesting. Jediphile, in praticular, seem to provide good reason and belief.

 

Prehaps, then, the KOTOR series would actually be a "Greek Tragedy", with no clear hero or villian, where both sides are actually in error (Revan for his invasion of the Republic to "protect" it and the Jedi Council for taking advantage of the situation and getting rid of Revan's idenity), even when they are fighting for the same cause...

 

(There is the exception of Malak, of course. But even the game itself reveals that Malak followed Revan, beliving in his lies, and was unable to tear himself from it. Malak being an evil Sith Lord was done because of Revan's manlipuations and scheming...and was a creation of Revan. Revan may have higher goals, but his thugs were very evil, embracing the DS...because of Revan.)

[Clone L68362]

Even if the Council had brainwashed him (since it was most likely amnesia from the battle) I don't think Revan would have minded being "reprogrammed", since in the end, everything worked out better for him. He redeemed himself, saved the Galaxy, and met Bastila. In fact, he's probably thankful.

[Allronix]

Depends on your Revan. A good many Revans would just as soon tell the Order to stuff it - not necessarily Dark Side, but definitely not loyal to the Order. Like Revan's mentor, embracing either side.

 

And if Revan walked up to Vandar after those credits rolled and says "I know what was done to me, I didn't choose the Jedi - I chose those people outside" - what would happen?

[Jediphile]

Revan most likely did not think it made her evil, just like most sane people (and a fair deal of insane ones) do not consider themselves evil even if they commit atrocities.

 

Actually, no villain ever considers himself evil. In fact, nobody ever does. Only in very simple black and white stories - like Star Wars, perhaps - can someone see themself as evil, or possibly in stories that include very introspective views. Richard III in Shakespeare's play of the same name certainly knows that he's a villain. But the examples are rare in the extreme. Even the cigarette-smoking man on "The X-Files" or Gul Dukat on "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" consider themselves to be heroes.

 

If you ask an imprisoned and tortured Jedi before he snaps, or a conquered population, you might get another answer. Even if all of it was made with good intent, there is the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If you start to think and act like your enemy in order to stop them, what difference does it make in the end who wins?

 

Precisely. Now apply that train of thought to the jedi order's manipulation of Revan and consider what conclusion that leads us to...