Hobbit goes ahead without Jackson

[Arátoeldar]

Please explain.

 

The biggest reason is that the characters stayed true to what Tolkien wrote, for the most part, in the Bakshi movie.

[Q]

I'll wait to see which director gets the nod before I decide whether this film will suck or not. It's having a different "feel" from LOTR is not that big of a deal, since The Hobbit had a much lighter mood to it than LOTR.

Bah. This is like the OT without Lucas.

Ehem...ESB was BY FAR the best film in the entire saga, BECAUSE GL had the LEAST involvement (he didn't write the screenplay OR direct it) in the actual film-making process. He's great idea man, but a horrible writer and a lackluster director. He also has an ego greater than the size of the entire Star Wars universe (EU included ), which wouldn't allow him to admit that he's a horrible writer and a lackluster director, thereby preventing him from handing the writing and directing reigns over to people who could have made the prequels far, far better than they were.

[Astrotoy7]

...Ehem...ESB was BY FAR the best film in the entire saga, BECAUSE GL had the LEAST involvement (he didn't write the screenplay OR direct it) in the actual film-making process. He's great idea man, but a horrible writer and a lackluster director...

 

lolz. GL has often joked about his writing abilities.

 

Least involvement ?? You make it sound like ESB was a like an episode of Trek :Next Gen after Rodennbery died. Go watch your OT docus. GL was there all the time, in everything. Everything that happens in ESB is his idea, irrespective of whether he wrote the screenplay or what Kershner achieved with the performances(mainly the Han/Leia stuff it must be said).

 

Remember that, in the 1940s, Tolkien was exploring uncharted territory when he wrote LotR. It's fair to say that there would most likely have never been a Star Wars galaxy if there had never been a Middle Earth...

 

Fair to say ?? Tolkien did not invent fantasy nor mythology. Neither did GL, but both have drawn on mythological concepts as old as literature itself. The key to SW lies in GLs(VERY well documented) inspiration from Joseph Campbell and his book 'Hero with a Thousand Faces'..... not Tolkien books. In fact, you are the first person who has ever made that direct link that Ive come across. If you have a source from a Lucas interview where he states this, please post a link. It'd be an interesting read

 

Tolkien(and his friend Clive Lewis) were quite open in admitting that they were drawing on the mythology of the past and trying to re-invigorate it for a modern English audience. CS Lewis was also of course trying to chuck in some Christian Rhetoric while he was at it.... What is weird is that people think that Tolkien invented elves and dwarves etc etc. He was reprocessing many ancient mythologies and ideas into a universe he was designing.... Tolkien was very well versed in Germanic, Nordic and Celtic legends, including Beowulf and The Ring of the Nibelung.....it seems a good deal of his fans are not.

 

mtfbwya

[Darth InSidious]

I'm pretty sure he invented the word 'dwarves'...IIRC, it was 'dwarfs' before that

 

You're right, Tolkien didn't *invent* fantasy, but he *did* reshape it and is still influencing it even now.

[Achilles]

As Lord of the Rings fans mounted a protest following word that New Line had dropped Peter Jackson from consideration as director of The Hobbit and another Lord of the Rings prequel, producer Saul Zaentz has given assurances that Jackson will indeed direct the two films. A German website, Elbenwald.de, posted an interview with Zaentz, who acquired the rights to the works of the late Rings writer, J.R.R. Tolkien, in 1976 (the Saul Zaentz Company owns Tolkien Enterprises), in which Zaentz says, "It will definitely be shot by Peter Jackson. ... Next year The Hobbit rights will fall back to my company. I suppose that Peter will wait because he knows that he will make the best deal with us. And he is fed up with the studios: to get his profit share on the Rings trilogy he had to sue New Line. With us, in contrast, he knows that he will be paid fairly and artistically supported without reservation." (The preceding quotation is a translation that appeared on TheHobbit-Movie.com from the German interview posted on Elbenwald.de.)

 

Taken from http://imdb.com/news/sb/2006-11-24/

[Jeff]

Hmm, so while we don't know if that will really happen or not, it's good news

[Q]

lolz. GL has often joked about his writing abilities

Then why didn't he let someone with some language skills write the friggin screenplays for the prequels?

Least involvement ?? You make it sound like ESB was a like an episode of Trek :Next Gen after Rodennbery died. Go watch your OT docus. GL was there all the time, in everything. Everything that happens in ESB is his idea, irrespective of whether he wrote the screenplay or what Kershner achieved with the performances(mainly the Han/Leia stuff it must be said).

All true. It was not my intention to imply that he had near-zero involvement. Sorry about the rant. It's just that I'm still bitter that the prequels weren't nearly as good as they could have been.

 

@Achilles: Good find. I think that Jackson did as good of a job making LotR as anyone could have. I for one would be delighted if he directed "The Hobbit."

[Arátoeldar]

lolz. GL has often joked about his writing abilities.

 

Least involvement ?? You make it sound like ESB was a like an episode of Trek :Next Gen after Rodennbery died. Go watch your OT docus. GL was there all the time, in everything. Everything that happens in ESB is his idea, irrespective of whether he wrote the screenplay or what Kershner achieved with the performances(mainly the Han/Leia stuff it must be said).

 

 

 

Fair to say ?? Tolkien did not invent fantasy nor mythology. Neither did GL, but both have drawn on mythological concepts as old as literature itself. The key to SW lies in GLs(VERY well documented) inspiration from Joseph Campbell and his book 'Hero with a Thousand Faces'..... not Tolkien books. In fact, you are the first person who has ever made that direct link that Ive come across. If you have a source from a Lucas interview where he states this, please post a link. It'd be an interesting read

 

Tolkien(and his friend Clive Lewis) were quite open in admitting that they were drawing on the mythology of the past and trying to re-invigorate it for a modern English audience. CS Lewis was also of course trying to chuck in some Christian Rhetoric while he was at it.... What is weird is that people think that Tolkien invented elves and dwarves etc etc. He was reprocessing many ancient mythologies and ideas into a universe he was designing.... Tolkien was very well versed in Germanic, Nordic and Celtic legends, including Beowulf and The Ring of the Nibelung.....it seems a good deal of his fans are not.

 

mtfbwya

 

Actually Tolkien had Francophobia. He had disdain for the Arthurian legend and other Franco Medieval Tales. What Tolkien wanted to do was to replace those myths in the English collective conscious with ones that might have come from the Anglo-Saxons.

 

While Tolkien didn't invent fantasy, he did however invent modern fantasy. Before The Hobbit came out hardly anyone was reading Beowulf or Nordic Sagas.

[Vaelastraz]

Tolkien was for Fantasy what Jules Verne was for Science Fiction.

 

 

Personally, I'm dissappointed that Peter Jackson won't be directing the Hobbit...

I was looking forward to that movie, as the book actually made me buy the Lotr books 6 years ago.

 

The Hobbit is ... more a children story, like Tolkien originally had it intended to be. Still, it is totally awesome...

 

I really Peter J. will do it...

[Astrotoy7]

....Before The Hobbit came out hardly anyone was reading Beowulf or Nordic Sagas.

 

well, not in England anyway The Germans, Norwegians and Scandinavians are quite proud of their literary history, and the fundamental overlap it has with their mythology, history and religion.

 

So, in essence, JRR and CSL have taken bits n pieces of other nations cultural legacies as inspiration and tried to make an English mythology, which heretowith did not exist... add to it those weird things like how 'Men of the West' triumph over all that is evil and the mystical aura that surrounds these authors boils down to nationalistic and religious dogma.... truly funny People who havent read the bulk of Tolkiens work(including Christopher Tolkiens editing works) wont pick this up. Please do *use* the movies as a guide to understanding what JRR(and CS Lewis) were all about. Indeed, for LOTR, PJ has taken the 'guts' of each story and presented it in a pleasant and digestible fashion for the public. Any film-maker who tried to be 100% faithful to Tolkien's actual words and message, would be committing career suicide.

 

@Qliveur - my answer to prequel haters.....YOU write it GL isnt an angry young man anymore, as he was when he made the OT. The absolute majority of any writer/directors/artists work gets softer as they age. SW and GL is the same. EP3 was an amazing cinematic experience...nuff said

 

mtfbwya

[Arátoeldar]

well, not in England anyway The Germans, Norwegians and Scandinavians are quite proud of their literary history, and the fundamental overlap it has with their mythology, history and religion.

 

So, in essence, JRR and CSL have taken bits n pieces of other nations cultural legacies as inspiration and tried to make an English mythology, which heretowith did not exist... add to it those weird things like how 'Men of the West' triumph over all that is evil and the mystical aura that surrounds these authors boils down to nationalistic and religious dogma.... truly funny People who havent read the bulk of Tolkiens work(including Christopher Tolkiens editing works) wont pick this up. Please do *use* the movies as a guide to understanding what JRR(and CS Lewis) were all about. Indeed, for LOTR, PJ has taken the 'guts' of each story and presented it in a pleasant and digestible fashion for the public. Any film-maker who tried to be 100% faithful to Tolkien's actual words and message, would be committing career suicide.

 

@Qliveur - my answer to prequel haters.....YOU write it GL isnt an angry young man anymore, as he was when he made the OT. The absolute majority of any writer/directors/artists work gets softer as they age. SW and GL is the same. EP3 was an amazing cinematic experience...nuff said

 

mtfbwya

 

While PJ got the overall story of Frodo destroying the One Ring. He sucked in both the details and characters if you were knowledgeable at all on the books. All three movies had plot holes that you could drive mack trucks through, with RotK being the worst. While I have problems with Ralph Bakski's movie I believe he did a better job at telling Tolkien's story. So far as the characters are concerned PJ butchered most of them just as he did in his remake of King Kong. After seeing both movies (LotR & KK) I could probably tell you where he stands on most political issues with a fairly good accuracy. What PJ got right in both films were the visuals.

 

I will agree that most original source to films come out butchered. However there are at least three exceptions that I can think of off the top of my head. They are The Godfather, The Hunt for the Red October and Batman Begins. While Tim Burton's first batman movie was good. I don't think it was nearly done as well as the Christopher Nolan movie.

[Astrotoy7]

Please do NOT use the movies as a guide to understanding what JRR(and CS Lewis) were all about.

 

lolz...fixed

 

mtfbwya

[Darth InSidious]

well, not in England anyway The Germans, Norwegians and Scandinavians are quite proud of their literary history, and the fundamental overlap it has with their mythology, history and religion.

 

So, in essence, JRR and CSL have taken bits n pieces of other nations cultural legacies as inspiration and tried to make an English mythology, which heretowith did not exist... add to it those weird things like how 'Men of the West' triumph over all that is evil and the mystical aura that surrounds these authors boils down to nationalistic and religious dogma.... truly funny People who havent read the bulk of Tolkiens work(including Christopher Tolkiens editing works) wont pick this up. Please do *use* the movies as a guide to understanding what JRR(and CS Lewis) were all about. Indeed, for LOTR, PJ has taken the 'guts' of each story and presented it in a pleasant and digestible fashion for the public. Any film-maker who tried to be 100% faithful to Tolkien's actual words and message, would be committing career suicide.

 

@Qliveur - my answer to prequel haters.....YOU write it GL isnt an angry young man anymore, as he was when he made the OT. The absolute majority of any writer/directors/artists work gets softer as they age. SW and GL is the same. EP3 was an amazing cinematic experience...nuff said

 

mtfbwya

I beg to differ.

 

To answer in reverse order, the direction in Episode III was bland, and the scenes between Anakin and Padme might as well have had blocks of wood playing the pair. And the dialogue was dreadful throughout.

 

On Tolkien and Lewis - they draw on many things. In part, yes, they draw on religious belief, but to dismiss it as religious dogma is just a tad harsh. If the mention of 'Men of the West' is in fact as you say (and I haven't read all the reams of crap on Tolkien - this is largely from memory of the books), then it is more, I suspect, to do with the (particularly Welsh) Celtic suspicion of those from outside (and I say this with more than a drop of Welsh/Celtic ancestry ). Sure, lots of people have interpreted LoTR, but even his son doesn't know entirely what Tolkien was going for himself. In any case, the 'Men of the West' need a lot of help, and they in the end go further West, to the 'West-land' of Numenor. It is interesting to note that the Egyptian idea of the afterlife was somewhere in the West, don't you think?

 

Now, I'm not sure whether Tolkien was aware of Egyptian mythology or not, but there are certain elements - admittedly fairly small ones- which bare a resemblance, and while you can argue for religious dogma in LotR, there is an argument for simply reading a book because it's a great story:)

 

Sure, LotR books aren't perfect. They're dense and tricky to read - something they share with more 'natural' stories. What they do have going for them however is a richness to the saga which is something which GL would have been aware of and drawn on in part.

 

I never really was that keen on 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe' et al., myself, anyhow. It was a bit too twee, Ursula K. LeGuin-ish for me...

[montnoir]

All three movies had plot holes that you could drive mack trucks through, with RotK being the worst.

***

So far as the characters are concerned PJ butchered most of them just as he did in his remake of King Kong.

This has the exact weight of truth as:

"Jean Grey's hair is the wrong color of red! This is why X-Men SUCKS and that is why Bryan Singer screwed up her character!".

[Arátoeldar]

This has the exact weight of truth as:

"Jean Grey's hair is the wrong color of red! This is why X-Men SUCKS and that is why Bryan Singer screwed up her character!".

I grew up reading and collecting several comic books. One those comic book series happened to be the X-men. Iceman was part of the original 5 in the comic book series. I don't care that Bryan Singer made him younger in the movies because it doesn't change the fundamental character.

 

PJ however totally screwed up the Aragorn character until the Paths of the Dead. In the book he portrayed as someone fighting Sauron's evil. Knowing that until Sauron was defeated he could not take up his rightful inheritance. Without Aragorn becoming the King of the Reunited Kingdoms there no way that Elrond would permit Arwen & Aragorn to marry. PJ turned Aragorn into a weak character until the Paths of the Dead.

 

While there was not much Arwen that was written into the book. The way PJ portrayed her was a slap in Tolkien's face.

FotR Arwen = Xena the Warrior Princess

TTT Arewn = Angst Emo woman

RotK Arwen = Giggling Idiot.

This is nothing like the way Tolkien portrays Lúthien in the Simarillion book. The two elven women are supposed to be very similar in character except for when they live. By the way there was no chance in hell that the book Elrond would have aloud his daughter to go against the Nazgul Yet because PJ had signed a "major" actress she was given more screen time.

 

I hated the way PJ portrayed Denethor II.

 

Another thing that irritated me was how PJ would give one character lines to another just to get them into the movie. One example would be when Galadriel talked about feeling things in the water,air, and rocks. This makes no sense yet when Treebeard does those lines in the book it makes perfect sense. Another example would be when Éowyn talks about dream in which an island sinks into the ocean. Éowyn is descendant of the Men of Twilight. These men had never lived on this island. Faramir was the one who had this dream in the book which makes sense since he is a Dúnedain descendant.

 

On Tolkien and Lewis - they draw on many things. In part, yes, they draw on religious belief, but to dismiss it as religious dogma is just a tad harsh. If the mention of 'Men of the West' is in fact as you say (and I haven't read all the reams of crap on Tolkien - this is largely from memory of the books), then it is more, I suspect, to do with the (particularly Welsh) Celtic suspicion of those from outside (and I say this with more than a drop of Welsh/Celtic ancestry ). Sure, lots of people have interpreted LoTR, but even his son doesn't know entirely what Tolkien was going for himself. In any case, the 'Men of the West' need a lot of help, and they in the end go further West, to the 'West-land' of Numenor. It is interesting to note that the Egyptian idea of the afterlife was somewhere in the West, don't you think?

 

So far as Tolkien was concerned the "history" of Middle-Earth was only supposed to be quasi Anglo-Saxon myths to replace the Franco myths from the Norman invasion of 1066. He stated more than once that the stories were just stories and nothing more. You were not supposed to try and make them into allegories or interpret them. Nor were there supposed to be any religious connotations in the stories.

[Astrotoy7]

...So far as Tolkien was concerned the "history" of Middle-Earth was only supposed to be quasi Anglo-Saxon myths to replace the Franco myths from the Norman invasion of 1066. He stated more than once that the stories were just stories and nothing more. You were not supposed to try and make them into allegories or interpret them. Nor were there supposed to be any religious connotations in the stories.

 

Yes ! Tolkien -

quasi Anglo-Saxon myths to replace the Franco myths from the Norman invasion of 1066

 

Whilst JRR was working in a new WASP mythology, CS Lewis wanted to get kids back into Sunday School... Narnia is full of fantastical creatures...did you hear any Christian groups protestesting it like they do with poor Harry Potter ?? Nope, because the whole series is threaded with 'parables for kids'

 

mtfbwya

[Arátoeldar]

Yes ! Tolkien -

 

 

Whilst JRR was working in a new WASP mythology, CS Lewis wanted to get kids back into Sunday School... Narnia is full of fantastical creatures...did you hear any Christian groups protesting it like they do with poor Harry Potter ?? Nope, because the whole series is threaded with 'parables for kids'

 

mtfbwya

 

Yes CS Lewis was trying to get people back into church however Tolkien was not. I love how you call works a WASP mythology especially when Tolkien was a hard core Catholic. The biggest reason the stories were written was because Tolkien had a love for languages. He wanted a world where these languages could live and breath along with having a history. Again religion had nothing to do with his stories.

 

The idiots that protest Harry Potter are same idiots that protest Tolkien because it has a very little bit of magic in the stories.

[Darth InSidious]

@Astro: Tolkien was a Roman Catholic, precluding him from even thinking in an exclusively Anglo-centric manner, since the Roman Catholic Church is centred in - guess which city - yes -Rome! GASP! And sprang from - no, not Huddersfield - no, not Swindon either - the Roman province of Palestine!

 

Gosh, what a naughty, KKK-like writer he must have been, writing an evil, WASP story to dupe people back into his nasty, anglo-centric religion.