Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win

[JawaJoey]

Now I quote Kreia on this: "There are some techniques in the Force to which there is no defense." That's pretty explicitly clear IMO.

 

Um, yes, I remember that line, and specifically thought of it in fact, but I thought it was obvious that a line like that by no means explicitly refers to Nihilus' power. As clear as the meaning is, the line is incredibly vague in the relevant context.

I'm not sure of the exact context, I thought it was about when she was overthrown.

...looking it up...

Aha, it is Kreia describing her fall.

"There are dark places in the galaxy, where few tread. Ancient centers of learning, of knowledge. But I did not walk alone. To be united by hatred is a fragile alliance at best. But my will was not law. There were disagreements, ambition . . . and hunger for power. There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled. I suffered indignities, and fell into darkness."

 

"techniques against which there is no defense" basically only means that in her betrayal, Sion and Nihilus did something that she simply couldn't resist. It is once again unclear what. "stripped of her power" probably means stripped of her title and authority, not her ability to command the force, since she still retains her abilities of perception and mind trickery and sensitivity to the nature of the force.

 

If she was referring specifically to Nihilus' power, then the evidence shows that it wasn't able to do any permanent or significant damage to her.

Therefore, either she was not talking about his power,

or, his power wasn't terribly crippling to one strong in the force.

 

Why Sion and Nihilus didn't kill Kreia is uncertain. Perhaps they assumed that stripped of most of her force power, she would die, and left her to suffer. But they probably could have killed her.

 

So assuming she was really talking about Nihilus's power, he probably could defeat Revan with it.

 

ED made a good point.

 

I agree, I was just arguing against the claim that Nihilus wouldn't even have to do anything to automatically insta win.

[S_W_LeGenD]

THAT?

 

Bah. That's just regural Force Lighting. We're talking about the Raktan race who hasn't even seen the Force until just recently. The Black Raktan is exagrating the effects, being scared and shocked. (If someone waved their hands and brought lighting to the ground...I would be very scared and shocked too)

That regural Force Lightning spread in such a scale that it slaughtered many Rakatan warriors and Rancor beasts in a single hit, which means it was much more deadly then a normal Force Lightning.

 

And why would "The One" lie after seeing so many of his warriors dead? No one lies in such a case.

 

Any DSer can do a Force Storm as the Raktans describe it. The Exile, Revan. You have to be close to your enemy though. It could kill off the Raktans who are weak against the Force, but Nihlius may only suffer some damage from it. And Nihlius would drain Revan at that distance, so it is moot.

Not all DS users can use "Force Lightning Storm". It requires mastering "Force Lightning" to an immense level. Canonically only "Darth Sidious" and "Darth Bane" could demonstrate this ability apart from "Darth Revan".

 

And in canonical reality, Nihilus or any Sith Lord will be eliminated instantly from such an attack. We already know that what a normal Force Lightning can do to an individual when it hits him/her in the Star Wars Movies. And we are talking about the mighty "Force Lightning Storm" power here, which spreads to immense proportions.

 

You can't use Game Mechanices in the arguements. In reality, a Jedi (no matter how powerful) could die with a single hit of a Light Saber but in KOTOR games, you have to hit your targets multiple times to kill them, which is canonically not true.

 

And Revan's power killed some mighty Rancor Beats as well, who are not weak as we have seen one in SW: ROJ movie.

 

My point is not moot.

[SilentScope001]

"techniques against which there is no defense" basically only means that in her betrayal, Sion and Nihilus did something that she simply couldn't resist. It is once again unclear what. "stripped of her power" probably means stripped of her title and authority, not her ability to command the force, since she still retains her abilities of perception and mind trickery and sensitivity to the nature of the force.

 

I would agree with you, but at the end of K2, when she is talking about how the exile is unique, Kreia said:

 

"There will be those who will deny the force, try to forget it, but they manitan unconusius ties. And there would be those, like me, who have had the Force stripped from them."

 

So, I think Kreia was stripped of the Force, but regained her powers via the same method the Exile used to regain her powers...by using Force Bonds.

[Jediphile]

On Lehon planet, The One - (Leader of the Black Rakatan faction) tells you that Revan slaughtered many of his Rakatan warriors and Rancor Beasts by his deadly "Force Lightening Storm" in an instant attack.

 

The One also describes that how Revan's Force Storm hit his warriors and beasts. He says that "it came from the sky and killed many of my warriors and beasts instantly".

 

Revan's Force Lightening Storm is a power of gigantic proportions, which can kill large number of individuals in a single hit and it hits the targets from above and it can spread to large distances.

 

I must say that I agree with SilentScope001. It seems to me that what The One is describing is simply how a non-forceuser with absolutely no knowledge or even the slightest comprehension of even the existence of the Force would describe a fairly "common" Force Storm.

 

Don't forget that the Rakatans lost their force abilities due to their meddling with the Star Forge, which was a long, LONG time before KotOR1 (more than 20,000 years). Only the ancients even have knowledge of the Force, and they are interested in The One because they suspect that he has emerging force potential. The only conclusion there is that the Force is a completely alien concept to the Rakata, particularly after most of their civilization fell into a dark age and forgot all about their past, except for the ancients, who are a dying breed fighting a losing war, when you meet them.

 

If I took a flame-thrower, a mini-gun, and a bazooka back in time just a thousand years, let along 20,000, imagine how the people watching my use of these weapons would think. It would blow their minds to say the least, and they might consider me a God of unlimited power. Revan was just the same to the Rakata, and he exploited it all that he could too. Besides, if Revan could do that, why does he never do it in the game?

 

That regural Force Lightning spread in such a scale that slaughtered many Rakatan warriors and Rancor beasts in a single hit, which means it was much more deadly then normal Force Lightning.

 

I've done far worse with the Exile when exploiting the infinite Hssiss spawning point in KotOR2. They may not all have died in a single hit, but when they bit the dust, they sure died by the dozens... And given how much less of a threat the Rakatans are compared to Hssiss, that's not a particularly impressive observation IMHO.

 

Not all DS users can use "Force Lightning Storm". It requires mastering "Force Lightning" to an immense level. Canonically only "Darth Sidious" and "Darth Bane" could demonstrate this ability apart from "Darth Revan".

 

Strange. I distinctly remember Dooku using it in Episode II... and Yoda even using it right back at him...

 

And in canonical reality, Nihilus or any Sith Lord will be eliminated from such an attack. We already know that what a normal Force Lightning can do to an individual when it hits him/her in the Star Wars Movies. And we are talking about the mighty "Force Lightning Storm" power here, which spreads to immense proportions.

 

Well, given we might just as well argue that Windu was killed from the fall as from being shocked by Sidious, it would seem that no person has ever actually been killed by a force lightning or storm in the movies. That doesn't exactly make for the most compelling argument.

 

You can't use Game Mechanices in the arguements. In reality, a Jedi (no matter how powerful) could die with a single hit of a Light Saber but in KOTOR games, you have to hit your targets multiple times to kill them, which is canonically not true.

 

Actually, that's true, but it only further weakens your arguments, since we see nobody killed by force storms/lightnings, while people are killed by lightsabers all over the place. That would lead us to the conclusion that lightsabers are far more dangerous than any force storm or lightning.

 

And Revan's power killed some mighty Rancor Beats as well, who are not weak as we have seen one in SW: ROJ movie.

 

My point is not moot.

 

Given that I've killed boatfuls of Hssiss - who also aren't pushovers - with the Exile's Force Storms, I would respectfully have to disagree...

[S_W_LeGenD]

I must say that I agree with SilentScope001. It seems to me that what The One is describing is simply how a non-forceuser with absolutely no knowledge or even the slightest comprehension of even the existence of the Force would describe a fairly "common" Force Storm.

 

Don't forget that the Rakatans lost their force abilities due to their meddling with the Star Forge, which was a long, LONG time before KotOR1 (more than 20,000 years). Only the ancients even have knowledge of the Force, and they are interested in The One because they suspect that he has emerging force potential. The only conclusion there is that the Force is a completely alien concept to the Rakata, particularly after most of their civilization fell into a dark age and forgot all about their past, except for the ancients, who are a dying breed fighting a losing war, when you meet them.

 

If I took a flame-thrower, a mini-gun, and a bazooka back in time just a thousand years, let along 20,000, imagine how the people watching my use of these weapons would think. It would blow their minds to say the least, and they might consider me a God of unlimited power. Revan was just the same to the Rakata, and he exploited it all that he could too. Besides, if Revan could do that, why does he never do it in the game?

Can't you understand that "The One" said that many of his warriors (along with the beasts) died in that attack by Revan?

 

A normal Force Lightning only hits a single individual. But Revan's Lightning hit many individuals and beasts in a single attack. As The One narrates that "it came down from the sky and slaughtered many of warriors and beats".

 

Normal Force Lightning does not works like that. It does not hits the target from above. And we have seen the impact of a normal Force Lightning attack on the individuals in the canon movies. And we are talking about Super Force Lightning Storm over here, which can kill large number of individuals instantly.

 

Also, The One is not so primitive as you try to portray him to be. He became famous after killing a "Mandalorian". And we already know that how heavily armed are Mandalorians actually.

 

So try to get your facts straight and use some logic.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

That regural Force Lightning spread in such a scale that slaughtered many Rakatan warriors and Rancor beasts in a single hit, which means it was much more deadly then normal Force Lightning.

 

And why would "The One" lie after seeing so many of his warriors dead. No one lies in such a case.

As I said, the Black Rakata had never seen the Force. They were amazed at whta they saw and most likely exaggerate. The Ancients who built the Star Forge were the only ones of their species to have any knowledge of the Force.

Not all DS users can use "Force Lightning Storm". It requires mastering "Force Lightning" to an immense level. Canonically only "Darth Sidious" and "Darth Bane" could demonstrate this ability apart from "Darth Revan".

 

And in canonical reality, Nihilus or any Sith Lord will be eliminated from such an attack. We already know that what a normal Force Lightning can do to an individual when it hits him/her in the Star Wars Movies. And we are talking about the mighty "Force Lightning Storm" power here, which spreads to immense proportions.

I'm geussing that Nihilus has a bit more resistance to the Force than some Rakata who knew nothing about it. And as Nihilus can drain the Force, it would seem to me that he can also absorb it, since eating up Force is what increases his power.

You can't use Game Mechanices in the arguements. In reality, a Jedi (no matter how powerful) could die with a single hit of a Light Saber but in KOTOR games, you have to hit your targets multiple times to kill them, which is canonically not true.

 

And Revan's power killed some mighty Rancor Beats as well, who are not weak as we have seen one in SW: ROJ movie.

I assume that you have played KotOR before so you know that the Rancor that are on the Unknown World are not the same type of Rancor that we see on ROTJ (or in the Taris Sewers for that matter). Those rancor are much weaker than the larger rancor in the movie.

Can't you understand that "The One" said that many of his warriors (along with the beasts) died in that attack by Revan?

 

A normal Force Lightning only hits a single individual. But Revan's Lightning hit many individuals and beasts in a single attack. As The One narrates that "it came down from the sky and slaughtered many of warriors and beats".

 

Normal Force Lightning does not works like that. It does not hits the target from above. And we have seen the impact of a normal Force Lightning attack on the individuals in the canon movies. And we are talking about Super Force Lightning Storm over here, which can kill large number of individuals instantly.

Uh...you have played KotOR before haven't you. Ever had the power Force Storm? That hits plenty of enemies and it does (in a manner of speaking) come down from the sky. The PC holds his hand up, lighting shoots up and then splits up to attack all enemies around you. And, by previous experiences of using that power, it's pretty darn powerful. I've never heard of this Super Force Lighting that Revan apparently has (by what you say that is).

Also, The One is not so primitive as you try to portray him to be. He became famous after killing a "Mandalorian". And we already know that how heavily armed are Mandalorians actually.

 

So try to get your facts straight and use some logic.

[sarcasm]Killed a Mandalorian?! Wow that's unbelievable![/sarcasm]

 

C'mon...wookiees can kill Mandalorians. And the logical thing to do, would be to just accept that Revan is not all-powerful.

[Emperor Devon]

For even further evidence, remember that Nihilus killed every living thing on Katarr. That implies that once used, his power can stretch across the distance of thousands of miles. I highly doubt Revan has powers that can travel a similar distance.

 

And to quote myseful for emphasis:

 

For everyone's future reference, there is evidence that Nihilus can kill people with his all-powerful drain before they react. Unseen, Unheard confirms that he went to the surface of Katarr to consume the Jedi there, and despite going against a whole conclave of Masters (obviously more than a match for Revan), he was clearly able to kill them.

 

No credence to Nihilus' power being slow, there.

[S_W_LeGenD]

As I said, the Black Rakata had never seen the Force. They were amazed at whta they saw and most likely exaggerate. The Ancients who built the Star Forge were the only ones of their species to have any knowledge of the Force.

The One knows about the Force actually but he uses the term "Magical Power" to describe it.

 

He saw many of his warriors and beasts killed by Revan in a single attack. So he has no reason to exaggerate in such a case. He was not a "Gizka" after all.

 

I'm geussing that Nihilus has a bit more resistance to the Force than some Rakata who knew nothing about it. And as Nihilus can drain the Force, it would seem to me that he can also absorb it, since eating up Force is what increases his power.

Of course, a Sith Lord does knows some defensive abilities but no one can deflect or survive such a gigantic Force Attack.

 

I assume that you have played KotOR before so you know that the Rancor that are on the Unknown World are not the same type of Rancor that we see on ROTJ (or in the Taris Sewers for that matter). Those rancor are much weaker than the larger rancor in the movie.

Those Beasts were still large enough to eat people and could cause massive damage with a single hit of their large claws. And they were also trained to fight in battles.

 

So they were not that weak as you try to make them look like.

[Melly]

S_W_LeGenD, you're talking about the Force power Force Storm. I can do that with Jolee, and I've seen Visas clear whole rooms of life on Onderon and the Ravenger with it. It's not something that is unique to Revan and Revan alone. And as others have said the Black Rakata (that would be the One's tribe) had never, ever, ever seen anyone use the Force before. Revan could have picked up a pebble and thrown it at the One, using the Force, and he would have bowed down to her like she was a god.

 

That all said I voted for Nihilus. The only reason he fell to the Exile, was because the Exile is dead to the Force (even Visas says that what she feels in the Exile is not something you would normally feel from "a living thing").

[Jediphile]

Can't you understand that "The One" said that many of his warriors (along with the beasts) died in that attack by Revan?

 

My Exile has killed many, many Hssiss just the same way. So understanding that Revan killed many warrios is not the problem - the problem is that killing many warriors does make Revan's use of Force Storm unique in any way.

 

 

A normal Force Lightning only hits a single individual.

 

No. Shock hits only a single individual. Force Lightning can hit several, but strikes only in a straight line. The only advantage of Force Storm over Force Lightning is that it strikes in a radius around the user instead of from a straight from him. The damage done is the same, however.

 

But Revan's Lightning hit many individuals and beasts in a single attack. As The One narrates that "it came down from the sky and slaughtered many of warriors and beats".

 

Normal Force Lightning does not works like that. It does not hits the target from above. And we have seen the impact of a normal Force Lightning attack on the individuals in the canon movies. And we are talking about Super Force Lightning Storm over here, which can kill large number of individuals instantly.

 

Force Lightning is not the same as Force Storm, and my Force Storms with the Exile were always far more deadly than Revan's for the simple reason that the Exile could reach higher levels. And when I play either game, my force Storms always strike from above, meaning "the sky".

 

Also, The One is not so primitive as you try to portray him to be. He became famous after killing a "Mandalorian". And we already know that how heavily armed are Mandalorians actually.

 

I did not call him primitive. I said that he had no inkling of the Force and therefore interpreted its use and mere existence as mind-shattering. I do not think those are the same, nor do I think that is an overstatement. That he can learn how to use weapons may make him a competent warrior and clever individual, but it does not mean that the discovery of someone using lightning magic apparently conjured out of thin air will not be scary and shocking (!) to him, if you'll forgive the pun.

 

So try to get your facts straight and use some logic.

 

Sound advice in any case... for either of us

 

The One knows about the Force actually but he uses the term "Magical Power" to describe it.

 

Actually, that is precisely how someone who have absolutely no idea of what the Force is would describe it. Besides, where would he know anything about the Force from, given that it has been lost to the Rakata for more than 20 millennia AND that they've gone through at least one dark age since?

 

Of course, a Sith Lord does knows some defensive abilities but no one can deflect or survive such a gigantic Force Attack.

 

No one? Including Revan?

 

That is why Revan would lose - he would not be able to resist Nihilus' draining powers, but Nihilus would not have to drain anything Revan could throw at him - he could simply absorb it and "eat" it as Revan tried to use it.

 

Those Beasts were still large enough to eat people and could cause massive damage with a single hit of their large claws. And they were also trained to fight in battles.

 

So are Hssiss (with their bites)

 

So they were not that weak as you try to make them look like.

 

Not weak, but in my experience certainly not as tough to kill as the Hssiss were either...

[Titanius Anglesmith]

The One knows about the Force actually but he uses the term "Magical Power" to describe it.

He had never seen it in action and had no idea how it was used. So if many of his men were killed by a blast of Force Storm, then of course he would say that it was incredibly powerful and he had never seen anything like it.

Of course, a Sith Lord does knows some defensive abilities but no one can deflect or survive such a gigantic Force Attack.

Yep...so lets put that into the situation of the topic of this discussion. Revan was also a Sith Lord, he knew some defensive abilities. Nihilus' Force Drain was a very powerful attack which Revan would also not be able to resist. And that's a fact.

Those Beasts were still large enough to eat people and could cause massive damage with a single hit of their large claws. And they were also trained to fight in battles.

 

So they were not that weak as you try to make them look like.

I wasn't saying that they were weak: I was just sayin that they were much smaller and inferior to the large rancor we see on ROTJ, which was the example you used.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Uh...you have played KotOR before haven't you. Ever had the power Force Storm? That hits plenty of enemies and it does (in a manner of speaking) come down from the sky. The PC holds his hand up, lighting shoots up and then splits up to attack all enemies around you. And, by previous experiences of using that power, it's pretty darn powerful.

Force Lightning Storm forms a gigantic ark of large number of deadly Lightning strikes, so thats why those strikes hit the targets from above.

 

And Force Powers in the games are immensly under-powered by Game Mechanics. Canonically, Force Powers are much more effective then that. And "Game Mechanics" should not be used in proper debates.

 

I've never heard of this Super Force Lighting that Revan apparently has (by what you say that is).[sarcasm]Killed a Mandalorian?! Wow that's unbelievable![/sarcasm]

 

C'mon...wookiees can kill Mandalorians. And the logical thing to do, would be to just accept that Revan is not all-powerful.

It is a powerful "Force Lightning Storm" ability which he (Revan) demonstrated in Lehon planet.

 

And Wookiees are ferocious warriors and they can use all kinds of advanced weapons in fights, so they can kill a mandalorian easily.

 

And The One, who mainly relies on melee weapons in a fight did a notable job by killing such a foe who was far more deadly then him.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Force Lightning Storm forms a gigantic ark of large number of deadly Lightning strikes, so thats why those strikes hit the targets from above.

 

And Force Powers in the games are immensly under-powered by Game Mechanics. Canonically, Force Powers are much more effective then that. And like I said before that you can't use "Game Mechanics" in proper debates.

First off, get the facts straight. Force Lightning and Force Storm are different powers. There is no "Force Lightning Storm." And I was using the example of how the PC does it in the game to tell you exactly how Force Storm works.

 

And Revan is not unique in his ability to use Force Storm. As Jediphile said, the Exile can use it to a far greater extent than Revan. This power that you say he has cannot spread over hundreds of miles, more like about 20 feet.

 

Wookies are pretty primitive. Bowcasters and blades is what they use (at least on KotOR that's what they use). And besides, The One was a good fighter, and easily the best out of any other Black Rakata.

[S_W_LeGenD]

He had never seen it in action and had no idea how it was used. So if many of his men were killed by a blast of Force Storm, then of course he would say that it was incredibly powerful and he had never seen anything like it.

And that power was pretty effective against large number of enemies, and we are talking about using it on a single individual.

 

Yep...so lets put that into the situation of the topic of this discussion. Revan was also a Sith Lord, he knew some defensive abilities. Nihilus' Force Drain was a very powerful attack which Revan would also not be able to resist.

Revan can absord DS power. He demonstrated this ability on Malachor V and survived. He feeds on DS energies. I have provided a source above that has mentioned these details.

 

And I agree that Nihilus Force Drain was a very powerful attack and anyone getting caught in it will be in trouble. But Revan aborbs Dark Side powers and his resistance will be much stronger then expected.

 

Also, he can use his "Force Lightning Storm" ability and can eliminate Nihilus from many yards back.

 

And that's a fact.I wasn't saying that they were weak: I was just sayin that they were much smaller and inferior to the large rancor we see on ROTJ, which was the example you used.

Big or small, they were deadly.

 

And I used a Mod in which that huge Rancor (in Taris) could be engaged in a Korriban Cave and I (as a Jedi) killed that huge beast with just 5 hits. So, it shows that being "large in size" does not always helps.

[Jediphile]

And Force Powers in the games are immensly under-powered by Game Mechanics. Canonically, Force Powers are much more effective then that. And "Game Mechanics" should not be used in proper debates.

 

And again, given that we've never seen anyone being actually killed by force lightning in the movies (I don't count Windu, who fell to his death), that doesn't sound very compelling to me. Lightsabers kill people all over the place. Force Lightning and Force Storms don't. Indeed, Yoda was able to resist the use of Force Lightning in both Episodes II and III.

 

And that power was pretty effective against large number of enemies, and we are talking about using it on a single individual.

 

Force Storm doesn't work like that - against a single individual, it is no better than Shock or Force Lightning.

 

Revan can absord DS power. He demonstrated this ability on Malachor V and survived. He feeds on DS energies. I have provided a source above that has mentioned these details.

 

And either you misunderstood or those sources did. You really need to consider the original sources, which are mostly the following:

 

HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

 

This is how Revan manipulated the events to convert the jedi to sith at Malachor V. However, it says nothing of those dark side powers, because HK-47 can speak only from what he can comprehend as a machine. Kreia, however, puts in perspective at THE essential part of TSL, when the master gather on Dantooine.

 

Kreia: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one."

 

That's where your dark power comes from - the Trayus Core. Revan used it to his advantage so that he could convert the jedi. But it does not give him any special powers that he can take with him beyond the knowledge he could learn at the Trayus Academy.

 

And I agree that Nihilus Force Drain was a very powerful attack and anyone getting caught in it will be in trouble. But Revan aborbs Dark Side powers and his resistance will be much stronger then expected.

 

And even if I agreed with that, Nihilus can absorb the Force itself...

 

Also, he can use his "Force Lightning Storm" ability and can eliminate Nihilus from many yards back.

 

While Nihilus can absorb planets from orbit...

 

Big or small, they were deadly.

 

And I used a Mod in which that huge Rancor (in Taris) could be engaged in a Korriban Cave and I (as a Jedi) killed that huge beast with just 5 hits. So, it shows that being "large in size" does not always helps.

 

Not by changing the size of a creature with a mod written by someone who may only have wanted larger rancors, no.

[S_W_LeGenD]

First off, get the facts straight. Force Lightning and Force Storm are different powers. There is no "Force Lightning Storm." And I was using the example of how the PC does it in the game to tell you exactly how Force Storm works.

My points are pretty much straight but you fail to understand them. I know that their is a force power, which is called as "Force Storm" and it was demonstrated by Darth Sidious.

 

But their is an another force power, which is known as Force Lightning (Storm) and both Bane and Revan have demonstrated this power.

 

And Revan is not unique in his ability to use Force Storm. As Jediphile said, the Exile can use it to a far greater extent than Revan. This power that you say he has cannot spread over hundreds of miles, more like about 20 feet.

Once again you are using "Game Mechanics", in your argument which is not good. Force Powers in KOTOR II are more improved then in KOTOR Game. But this is due to "Game Mechanics" and it has nothing to do with canonical reality. And we don't have proper "narrations" regarding Exile demonstrating this ability so it is not canon.

 

Force Lightning Storm can spread to far greater distances, as Bane demonstrated in POD Novel. So Revan can do that as well.

 

Wookies are pretty primitive. Bowcasters and blades is what they use (at least on KotOR that's what they use). And besides, The One was a good fighter, and easily the best out of any other Black Rakata.

Wookiees are still deadly opponents and their weapons are very effective as we have seen in ROTS movie as well.

 

And of-course, The One was a good fighter and the leader of a Rakatan faction and was also not an idiot and he knew everything because many ships crashed in his planet and he looted the survivors of their valuables (including weapons). So he learned a lot about advanced technology through them.

 

And again, given that we've never seen anyone being actually killed by force lightning in the movies (I don't count Windu, who fell to his death), that doesn't sound very compelling to me. Lightsabers kill people all over the place. Force Lightning and Force Storms don't. Indeed, Yoda was able to resist the use of Force Lightning in both Episodes II and III.

Mace's vaapad was protecting him from being slaughtered by normal Force Lightning attack. His vaapad allows him to deflect the DS power related attack back to the attacker and that is why Sidious's face got scarred. And still Mace was having great difficulty in countering that Lightning attack.

 

And Yoda is a very powerful Jedi. He can absord Force Shock and Force Lightning but it is still deadly to him as well. We have noticed this in ROTS movie in Sidious vs Yoda show down. And Sidious's Lightning attack was so powerful that it blew the Light Saber out from the Yoda's hand in that fight.

 

Also in SW: ROJ, we all know very well that what would happen to Luke by the Lightning attack from Emperor, if Vader had not interrupted.

 

And Force Lightning Storm was never demonstrated in movies. It has been demonstrated and mentioned in EU Novels, Games and Stories only.

 

So you are dead wrong that Force Lightning power and Force Storm power cannot kill a Jedi or Sith. And Force Storms are far more deadly then normal Force Powers.

[Emperor Devon]

So try to get your facts straight and use some logic.

 

Since you probably finished your previous post only a minute after mine:

 

For even further evidence, remember that Nihilus killed every living thing on Katarr. That implies that once used, his power can stretch across the distance of thousands of miles. I highly doubt Revan has powers that can travel a similar distance.

 

And to quote myseful for emphasis:

 

For everyone's future reference, there is evidence that Nihilus can kill people with his all-powerful drain before they react. Unseen, Unheard confirms that he went to the surface of Katarr to consume the Jedi there, and despite going against a whole conclave of Masters (obviously more than a match for Revan), he was clearly able to kill them.

 

No credence to Nihilus' power being slow, there.

 

I'd love to hear how Revan can still be more powerful.

[The Architect]

Well, it looks like I don't have to argue why Revan wouldn't beat Nihilus, since others are doing that quite well. Regardless of whether Nihilus can kill force users by just standing there or not, Revan would still be weakened just getting near Nihilus, because look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

 

They were all half dead, all weakened. Assuming that Revan is more powerful than all those Sith, he/she would be weakened even more by just getting near Nihilus, possibly even killed.

 

The only way Revan could win would be to attack from afar, but it would have to be from a fair distance, since as Emperor Devon said, Nihilus' attack works from long distances, since he wiped out a whole planet at once.

 

Even then, the Sith in K2 operate on stealth and guile. Revan would have to be careful not to be detected by the Sith, and he/she would have to find them in the first place, but since these Sith are drawn to powerful Jedi, it would be hard, almost impossible for Revan to do.

 

Have you got nothing but contempt for Revan, Architect?

Revan is average? What are the other jedi then, pawns? You can't deny that Revan IS special and extraordinary in the Kotor era.

 

Yes, Revan was above average in the KotOR era. But in the Star Wars timeline as a whole, Revan was just average. There are many Jedi and Sith who were greater and more powerful than Revan IMO.

 

Just to name a few, Marka Ragnos, Yoda, Palpatine, Luke, Vader/Anakin, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Tulak Hord, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kinobi and Darth Sidious are all more powerful than Revan.

 

Heck, I don't even think that Revan was the most powerful force user in the KotOR era. I think the Exile, Kreia, Sion and Nihilus were all more powerful than Revan.

 

I believe most of what you say, but if, like Kreia states (and what Kreia says is NOT necessarily true) Nihilus kills everything around him, just by his presence, how come there is that little cutscene were Nihilus attempts to use a drain like power on the Exile and fails?

Wouldn't that be unnecessary? In that case, his mere presence is not enough?

 

Nihilus fails because the Exile is a wound in the force. Nihilus probably does have to do more than just stand there to win against an opponent, but look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

 

Oh, and Nihilus is capable of destroying all life, since every life is touched by the force, thus wiping out entire planets? Did I get that right? Everyone is connected to the force?

So, in Mandalor's case, that connection was apparently not enough to instantly kill him? Or could it be, that Nihilus can only kill force sensitives? I wonder why you have "saved" Telos then. Noone would have died, except you and the other few force sensitives.

 

Yes, everyone is connected to the force. If the Exile didn't stop Nihilus, then all life would have been wiped out. You see, the galaxy is one big food platter for Nihilus. He was going for the big prizes, the main course first, which are the Jedi, since they have a stronger connection to the force than your average joe. He's drawn to those who are strong in the force.

 

Mandalore's connection was not enough to instantly kill him. He is not a Jedi or a Sith.

 

To put it simply....Nihilus would win hands down.

 

@The Architect, I understand your frustration with Revan fan-boys, but don't take that anger out on Revan. No matter what you say, he was a great military genius. He nearly single-handedly turned the tide of the entire Mandalorian War. And unless you think Kreia is completely out of her mind, then you know that what she says about him is right, and she always talks about him with great admiration. Now I'm not sayin he's unstoppable (he's far from it actually), but give the guy some credit.

 

You're right. I shouldn't take it out on Revan, but it still won't change the fact that I don't like Revan that much and think he/she is overrated. There are plenty of characters that I like more than that idiot.

 

Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Revan's great military strategy. While Revan could very well have been a 'great military genius', I haven't seen any proof of it, so I can't say whether he/she was/wasn't a 'great military genius'.

 

Also, the Republic would have won the Mandalorian Wars, with or without Revan. If Revan didn't go to war, then Malak and the Exile would have led the charge.

 

You have to remember that the Republic had many more troops, supplies, ships and the Jedi on their side, so it's not as if Revan didn't have any help and did everything himself/herself.

[Jediphile]

Mace's vaapad was protecting him from being slaughtered by normal Force Lightning attack. His vaapad allows him to deflects the DS power related attack back to the attacker and that is why Sidious's face got scarred. And still Mace was having great difficulty in countering that Lightning attack.

 

True, but it still didn't kill him.

 

And Yoda is a very powerful Jedi. He can absord Force Shock and Force Lightning but it is still deadly to him as well. We have noticed this in ROTS movie in Sidious vs Yoda show down. And Sidious's Lightning attack was so powerful that it blew the Light Saber out from Yoda's attack.

 

Actually, when Yoda and Sidious begin their confrontation, Sidious catches Yoda off guard and zaps him to the wall before Yoda can get his defenses up. Still, Yoda didn't die...

 

Also in SW: ROJ, we all know very well that what would happen to Luke by the Lightning attack, if Vader had not interrupted.

 

Sure. But then Luke isn't even a Jedi Knight at this point - he is no match for Sidious' force powers. Indeed, that he can hold his own against Vader in lightsaber battle is hard to believe in itself...

 

And yet, despite his inexperience, despite being zapped for long minutes with no defense by Palpatine who zaps him with everything he has, Luke still lives through it. Certainly he would have died, but if Palpatine had used a lightsaber, Luke would have been finished a lot quicker!

 

And Force Lightning Storm was never demosntrated in movies. It has been demonstrated and mentioned in EU Novels, Games and Stories only.

 

Ah, a "special power" that exists only in rare corners of the EU and is limited only to "special people". How very convenient...

 

So you are dead wrong that Force Lightning and Force Storms cannot kill Jedi or Sith. And Force Storms are far more deadly then normal Force Powers.

 

I didn't say it couldn't, I said we haven't seen it, and that this implied that use of a lightsaber was more deadly. Of course someone will die, if they are continually zapped. But clearly just using a lightsaber seems to be far more quick and deadly.

 

You're right. I shouldn't take it out on Revan, but it still won't change the fact that I don't like Revan that much and think he/she is overrated. There are plenty of characters that I like more than that idiot.

 

Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Revan's great military strategy. While Revan could very well have been a 'great military genius', I haven't seen any proof of it, so I can't say whether he/she was/wasn't a 'great military genius'.

 

Also, the Republic would have won the Mandalorian Wars, with or without Revan. If Revan didn't go to war, then Malak and the Exile would have led the charge.

 

You have to remember that the Republic had many more troops, supplies, ships and the Jedi on their side, so it's not as if Revan didn't have any help and did everything himself/herself.

 

I think you're being rather hard on Revan. Even Canderous admits that Revan was the deciding factor in the war, not because he was this ultimate force-god, but because he was willing to make sacrifices to win the war. Revan was ruthless as a warleader, while Malak was nothing but a thug and the Exile was timid. The republic may have had more ships, but their strategies were a disaster until Revan took the reins.

 

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

 

I don't always credit Kreia with telling the whole truth, but since she and Canderous agree here, I'll accept it. The Exile may be a good leader by virtue of unique force-bonding abilities, but that doesn't make him a good strategist. And Malak was always terrible at that, measuring only strength against strength, which most fools can do. No, I agree with Kreia that the galaxy would have fallen, if Revan had not gone to war.

 

But while I like Revan, I like him most because he is NOT some uber-force-god. Sure, Revan may have been the strongest force-user of his time, but I dare say he pales if compared to Yoda or any of the Skywalkers. He is strong in the force, but there are limits, and that's what I like about Revan - he's not just some half-clever guy soaked in uber-powers. He's far closer to an "ordinary" jedi and special mostly for how sneaky and clever he is. To give him unique powers that nobody else has is to cheapen the traits that were his real strengths, which was his strategic mind and his utter dedication to his cause.

 

Not that Revan didn't have his weaknesses. After all, he made the same mistake Ulic had made less than half a century before - he thought he could use the dark side of the Force without becoming a slave to it. Either that or he underestimated his own potential, since he turned into a dark lord far more dangerous than the evil he had sacrificed himself to destroy. Either way, Revan erred greatly. But in doing so it also humanizes him. He may be powerful, but he's not above making mistakes. I like that.

[JawaJoey]

Regardless of whether Nihilus can kill force users by just standing there or not, Revan would still be weakened just getting near Nihilus, because look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

 

They were all half dead, all weakened. Assuming that Revan is more powerful than all those Sith, he/she would be weakened even more by just getting near Nihilus, possibly even killed.

 

That evidence is very weak at best that Revan would be significantly weakened by being near Nihilus. The Sith on the bridge and in the ravager aren't more force attuned than Mandalore. They're just guys. Footsoldiers and crewman aren't the same as normal jedi. They're normal people, and they, like anyone, are affected by Nihilus because he's been controlling them for so long.

 

Even if every one of those guys WAS a dark Jedi, what about Colonel Tobin? He's no Jedi and he provides some of the best evidence for what being trapped on the Ravager is like. He's affected because he has been there longer, not because he was a Jedi or something. Mandalore wasn't affected because they just arrived. That's also a better explanation than "The Exile is immune. Oh, and Visas too."

 

Could you show some evidence that Nihilus' draining power works stronger on those powerful in the Force?

 

The point it irrelevant, though, IMO, for two reasons. One, the question is whether Nihilus can do the move suddenly and effectively. And two, even if he was significantly weakened, I can't imagine Revan losing. To appease the Artchitect , I'll even say that its not because Revan was so great, but because Nihilus sucked so bad.

 

 

 

Frankly, I don't think it's worth arguing with S_W_LeGenD, because he's so very wrong in so many ways, but I want comment on the fatality of lightning.

Note: The following is somewhat philosophical and self indulgent, and not really related tot he topic at hand. Ignore it if you wish.

I have my own theories about the Luke/Palps moment. http://blogs.starwars.com/jawajoey/33 (see also http://blogs.starwars.com/jawajoey/43, if you're interested).

Basically, Luke faced the lightning with hope, love, and peace, not anger, which made the effects fleeting and temporary. He made a full recovery seconds later, and was not sacrred in any way. Yoda also faced lightning on several occasions with serenity, and successfully deterred it. But Sidious was disfigured by his own lightning when fighting Mace, because he was full of hate.

In other words, the fatal effectiveness of lightning, and the dark side in general, is tied not only to emotions of the user, but also the target.

Those are my thoughts on that matter, because I've already thought them out, but in terms of this argument, I don't think its important. Tons of Jedi can use force lightning, and plenty can resist it. Heck, in KOTOR all you need is a good Fort save.

[SilentScope001]

But while I like Revan, I like him most because he is NOT some uber-force-god. Sure, Revan may have been the strongest force-user of his time, but I dare say he pales if compared to Yoda or any of the Skywalkers. He is strong in the force, but there are limits, and that's what I like about Revan - he's not just some half-clever guy soaked in uber-powers. He's far closer to an "ordinary" jedi and special mostly for how sneaky and clever he is. To give him unique powers that nobody else has is to cheapen the traits that were his real strengths, which was his strategic mind and his utter dedication to his cause.

 

QFE.

 

Not that Revan didn't have his weaknesses. After all, he made the same mistake Ulic had made less than half a century before - he thought he could use the dark side of the Force without becoming a slave to it. Either that or he underestimated his own potential, since he turned into a dark lord far more dangerous than the evil he had sacrificed himself to destroy.

 

Is that so? I assumed he sacrificied himself to destroy the True Sith. We don't know how powerful (or how weak) they are, so maybe, in K3, we might have proof that Revan had to fell.

 

More importantly, Revan had a plan. Take over the Republic, and then create a new Sith Empire that would then be able to fight the True Sith. That, or as ED once said, just do a spring cleaning, killing off most Jedi, and then letting his new Sith Empire decay, so that a new Jedi Order would spring that would fight the True Sith. Prehaps, even as he is still a slave to the Dark Side, he was still able to pull the plan off.

 

Could Revan actually contorl himself, be able to be a master of the Dark Side and not a slave to it? I don't know. I think he was able to contorl the Dark Side, but his goals would make some LS Jedi squirm. I'm thinking of Goto as an example of what I think Revan became. A patriot willing to do anything to save the Republic, even if it means that all goodness in it must be die.

 

EDIT:

Could you show some evidence that Nihilus' draining power works stronger on those powerful in the Force?

 

The Sith Assisans. According to Kreia, he compares "the sect of assisans", and what they do...is only the pinncale of Darth Nihlius can do.

 

Another thing:

Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.

 

Stronger the connection, the more tastier the morsel.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Well, it looks like I don't have to argue why Revan wouldn't beat Nihilus, since others are doing that quite well. Regardless of whether Nihilus can kill force users by just standing there or not, Revan would still be weakened just getting near Nihilus, because look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

 

They were all half dead, all weakened. Assuming that Revan is more powerful than all those Sith, he/she would be weakened even more by just getting near Nihilus, possibly even killed.

And how can you say that he will be even more weakened and that too due to the reason that he is far more powerful then those average Sith on Ravager? Did Sion got so much weakened by just standing close to Nihilus that he was no longer capable enough to launch an attack on him? The point is that your logic is heavily flawed.

 

The only way Revan could win would be to attack from afar, but it would have to be from a fair distance, since as Emperor Devon said, Nihilus' attack works from long distances, since he wiped out a whole planet at once.

And I have already pointed out that how Revan can attack from a large distance. Also, Nihilus needs to know the position of an enemy to launch his Drain attack on that enemy in close encounters. Draining a planet is different from Draining an individual in a one-on-one situation.

 

Even then, the Sith in K2 operate on stealth and guile. Revan would have to be careful not to be detected by the Sith, and he/she would have to find them in the first place, but since these Sith are drawn to powerful Jedi, it would be hard, almost impossible for Revan to do.

If you are using "Ravager" as the fighting place then Nihilus does have advantage.

 

Yes, Revan was above average in the KotOR era. But in the Star Wars timeline as a whole, Revan was just average. There are many Jedi and Sith who were greater and more powerful than Revan IMO.

And since when Revan have been compared to others in canonical sources in terms of power?

 

Also, Revan had accomplished far more then many other Sith Lords and only Sidious rivalled his accomplishments - 4000 years later. And their are only a few Jedi and Sith, who were more powerful then Revan. You surely need to open your eyes now.

 

Just to name a few, Marka Ragnos, Yoda, Palpatine, Luke, Vader/Anakin, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Tulak Hord, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kinobi and Darth Sidious are all more powerful than Revan.

Darth Sidious and Palpatine are same individuals.

 

And only Palpatine and Luke are more powerful then Revan in your list. The rest are close and thats it.

 

Heck, I don't even think that Revan was the most powerful force user in the KotOR era. I think the Exile, Kreia, Sion and Nihilus were all more powerful than Revan.

Yeah! Revan was sleeping in the Star Forge actually and that entire army of Sith was killed by his (not so powerful) companions.

 

And since when did Exile, kreia and Sion became more powerful then Revan?

 

Nihilus fails because the Exile is a wound in the force. Nihilus probably does have to do more than just stand there to win against an opponent, but look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

Those Sith were normal individuals and were his slaves.

 

Yes, everyone is connected to the force. If the Exile didn't stop Nihilus, then all life would have been wiped out. You see, the galaxy is one big food platter for Nihilus. He was going for the big prizes, the main course first, which are the Jedi, since they have a stronger connection to the force than your average joe. He's drawn to those who are strong in the force.

Yeah! since GL does not gives much importance to EU so any amount of BS can be thrown in it.

 

Star Wars canon sources confirm Darth Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord and by your logic, Nihilus will WTF-Pawn him and shoud be crowned as the most powerful Sith Lord in Star Wars Saga.

 

You're right. I shouldn't take it out on Revan, but it still won't change the fact that I don't like Revan that much and think he/she is overrated. There are plenty of characters that I like more than that idiot.

Nopes! Ragnos and Vader are most over-rated individuals.

 

Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Revan's great military strategy. While Revan could very well have been a 'great military genius', I haven't seen any proof of it, so I can't say whether he/she was/wasn't a 'great military genius'.

Because you are blind to the truth and your personal bias against Revan clouds your judgement regarding him.

 

Also, the Republic would have won the Mandalorian Wars, with or without Revan. If Revan didn't go to war, then Malak and the Exile would have led the charge.

Yeah! and thats why Mandalorians said that it was Revan who turned the tide in the war and they were badly defeated.

 

And Malak and Exile only followed Revan.

 

You have to remember that the Republic had many more troops, supplies, ships and the Jedi on their side, so it's not as if Revan didn't have any help and did everything himself/herself.

And they were getting pawned badly by Mandalorian forces in every battle until Revan arrived on the scene and led the Republic forces to victory.

 

Almost all of your arguements are flawed.

[Emperor Devon]

And I have already pointed out that how Revan can attack from a large distance. Also, Nihilus needs to know the position of an enemy to launch his Drain attack on that enemy in close encounters. Draining a planet is different from Draining an individual in a one-on-one situation.

 

In terms of casting it, probably not. I've already provided evidence against that argument.

 

Calling people blind to the truth and similar remarks aren't supposed to be said here, by the way.

[Jediphile]

Is that so? I assumed he sacrificied himself to destroy the True Sith. We don't know how powerful (or how weak) they are, so maybe, in K3, we might have proof that Revan had to fell.

 

True, but Revan almost destroyed the Republic itself trying to prepare for the coming war against the true Sith. In his zeal to destroy the enemy, he forgot the very thing that he was trying to save - the Republic. Oh yes, the Republic would have survived physically, but only as Revan's personal empire or military dictatorship, not as the democracy it was. Though he might have saved the Republic on the surface, the way he did it was an attack on its very soul of freedom and liberty. And so he would have destroyed the very thing he was trying to protect. And like Anakin, he would have become the very thing he swore to destroy. If Revan's actions ends up saving the Republic in KotOR3, it will be ironic indeed, that Malak will have actually saved the Republic by his betrayal...

 

More importantly, Revan had a plan. Take over the Republic, and then create a new Sith Empire that would then be able to fight the True Sith. That, or as ED once said, just do a spring cleaning, killing off most Jedi, and then letting his new Sith Empire decay, so that a new Jedi Order would spring that would fight the True Sith. Prehaps, even as he is still a slave to the Dark Side, he was still able to pull the plan off.

 

Yes, but as you say, that's a Sith empire, not the Republic Revan sacrificed himself to save.

 

Could Revan actually contorl himself, be able to be a master of the Dark Side and not a slave to it? I don't know. I think he was able to contorl the Dark Side, but his goals would make some LS Jedi squirm. I'm thinking of Goto as an example of what I think Revan became. A patriot willing to do anything to save the Republic, even if it means that all goodness in it must be die.

 

True, but the problem is that once you walk down that road, all your good intentions are twisted into something horrid. And we all know what the road to Hell is paved with... Revan was either too confident that he could use the dark side as a tool for his own purposes or else he did not think that he would become so great a threat to the Republic as he did. Not sure if he learned the lesson, but if he did, he did it the hard way - you can't make a deal with the devil without paying the price...

[S_W_LeGenD]

In terms of casting it, probably not. I've already provided evidence against that argument.

 

Calling people blind to the truth and similar remarks aren't supposed to be said here, by the way.

He needs to know that where his enemy is positioned in his ship (in case of close encounters). It is not that he will launch his DRAIN attack and that power will itself discover the position of his enemy and kill him/her.

 

As an example, Sion was very close to Nihilus when he used his Drain power on him.

 

And I apologize, if I had been rude to anyone but some views expressed by The Architect in his above post are beyond the truth and very frustrating.