Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win

[Jediphile]

Is this supported by any source or pure speculation?

 

Conjecture on my part entirely.

 

I'd opt to believe that it's not true, because you'd be suggesting that the dark side actually planned it for Revan that he'd be converting those jedi to his cause. I'd rather believe that Revan for some reason found out about the true sith and devised a way to fight against it, and converting jedi is what he came up with. As from what I recall of Kreia's saying, Revan actually chose Malachor as the battleground for the sole reason of converting the jedi by the dark power of the planet. Of course she could be wrong, but it all just seems too remote to be all planned and intended by the dark side of the force.

 

Well, I don't mean to give the impression that Revan was a slave to the dark side of the Force, because I don't believe that to be accurate. But what he did was decidedly malevolent and manipulative to an unholy degree. It was Revan's choice, but I do see influence of the dark side in it, because otherwise it would have meant that there was no other way to fight the "true Sith" than to convert all those jedi, and if that is true, then the Republic is now doomed, since Revan lost his dark army in the Jedi Civil War. The really nasty irony is that the masters seem to have sensed some greater evil behidn the Mandalorians, but once Revan that greater evil, there was no way he could go back to the masters and ally with them, since he had to fall to the dark side himself to find out what this greater evil was. And that fall, I think, prevented him from seeing any other choice than to convert the jedi. Had he not fallen, the alternative would have been obvious, I think - to return to the jedi council and make an ulimate alliance to stand against the "true Sith". But because Revan had already fallen, it was not an option to him.

 

And thanks for sharing your thoughts on Revan. I believe he's a good person too. Among all the other reasons you mentioned, I remember Kreia saying Revan having the traits of a jedi forever etched on his soul. Though as deceitful as Kreia is, there's no way she's lying all the time; she only lies when necessary. And as the first and last teacher of Revan I'd say she knows him pretty well, especially with sensitivity of a force-sensitive.

 

The really annoying thing about Kreia is that she never tells a complete truth or lie. All her truths are 60% lies, and her lies are all 50% truth.

 

A lot of people claim that Kreia is always lying, but it's not true. In fact, most of what she says is quite true... "from a certain point of view," as Obi-Wan would say

 

Suffice it to say that if Kreia told me water was wet, I would check it myself and ask at least three other people to confirm it before I believed her

[S_W_LeGenD]

Canon is canon. If later canon revises stuff about Malachor V, then we'll have to deal with that, but for now there is no reason to, since TSL's information about it stands. And since the planet is canonically destroyed in the end, it is unlikely we'll ever see revision that will alter events as they are in TSL. There would be no reason to that I can see.

Fine! and I have not said that I disagree with TSL's information.

 

In which case we all get to claim that those powers can canonically do whatever we prefer them to do? Sorry, but no. If a canon source had estalished this, it would be one thing, but since it doesn't, we have little choice but to look at the game mechanics for now. I agree that's not a good source, but it better than nothing. It's also better than blindly accepting anyone's opinion of what the power might do, whether that opinion be yours or mine or whomever's.

WTH?

 

Force Powers do what they are intended to. You just launch and see the results and results seen in the movies are far better then what we see in the games.

 

It is in the game rules. But fine, let's say we extend. How much then? Even if we take it up to 100 meters, ten times what it is in the rules, it still pales horribly next to Nihilus' draining powers. So it's a moot point.

100 meters is a very safe distance to begin with. And if Revan launches his "Force Storm" from such a far away distance and this is before Nihilus does something and gets hit by it, then Nihilus will be destroyed.

 

How far then? Fine, I'll accept 20 or 30 meters, but I don't think we see anything beyond that in any of the movies, comic books, or whatever. And naturally, it still wouldn't help Revan against Nihilus.

Fine! still it is good enough distance to launch an attack and surprise an enemy.

 

No basis for that conclusion, so I'll have to disagree. It's almost as if you're saying that because we can't be sure, you surely must be right in your assumption. What's to prevent me from saying the same about my conclusions? What's to stop anyone else, for that matter?

Have you seen the movies? if yes then you would have noticed that Dooku launched his Lightning attack on Yoda from a very safe distance. The evidence is clear enough.

 

Funny - my force lightning attacks could always hit several individuals if I positioned my character carefully... Shock was another matter, though.

What does your character's game based Force Lightning have to do with canonical reality? And if you haven't noticed yet, their is an advanced form of Force Lightning, which does the samething as you have mentioned here. This is actually called "Chain Lightning".

 

Actually, they both inflict exactly the same amount of damage - 1d6 per level up to a certain maximum. But I do agree that it might be difficult to see, since:

 

1. You naturally progress to higher levels, so learning a new power at a new level would make it seem more potent. This is due to the increased character level, however, not because the power itself does greater damage.

 

2. Since higher progressions of some abilities, such as Shock -> Force Lighning -> Force Storm cannot be learned until certain levels, at which point they utterly replace the "lower" power, it gives the impression that the new power does more damage for the reasons given in point 1 above and because it strikes more people.

 

Ruleswise, however, Shock, Force Lightning, and Force Storm all deal out the exact same amount of damage. The higher powers are just more effective because they affect more enemies. Any actually increased damage comes from a higher experience level of the character alone.

Using "Game Mechanics" as a source of explanation? Oh Boy?

 

Here is a real example:

 

Sidious's Chain Lightning was more deadly and effective then Dooku's Force Lightning. In AOTC Movie, Yoda blocked Dooku's Force Lightning with his bare hands. But in ROTS movie, when same Yoda faced Sidious, Sidious's Lightning attack blew the damn Light Saber out of Yoda's hand and Yoda could not successfully counter this attack with his bare hands and fall apart. Thus the level of effectiveness is clearly different.

 

And effectiveness of the Force Powers increases in the game due to your better attributes and not due to your levels of experience. The damage of any Force Power remains the same, regardless of how much you "Level-Up".

 

And by using the logic of the game, both Count Dooku and Sidious will do the same amount of damage if they use the same Lightning power. So "Game Mechanics" are not true and cannot be used in the proper debates.

 

And canonically, it depends on how strong your defensive abilities are if you have to successfully counter a Force Attack. Experience is irrelevant in determining the power behind a Force Attack. This is actually more related with your "mastery in the force".

 

Sidious's mastery in the Force was greater then that of Dooku's and that's why his Force attacks were more effective. And Sidious's Lightning attack can't be blocked by a Light Saber as an indication.

 

And Mace's case is different because his Vaapad ability managed to deflect Sidious's attack back at Sidious, which resulted in Sidious getting scarred.

 

Nope - I've been able to hit 20+ Hssiss in the tomb on Korriban with my Exile, so that is not accurate. In fact, it could 30+ Hssiss or beyond - I'm just not sure. But they were many indeed. And this was without cheating.

This problem is related to "Game Mechanics".

 

Even if I were to accept that, that doesn't mean that canonical force powers are limitless. I might accept that they are more powerful canonically, but I won't accept that they can do whatever you or anyone else would prefer them to do simply on the basis that their limits are not established outside the game mechanics. That they are not is no free pass for anyone to claim whatever they want to.

Some Canonical Force Powers are not limitless but some are actually. And Force Lightning in reality (if not successfully blocked), causes an individual to loose his balance and that victim can't do ****.

 

Yes, but we've seen that in the games too. At least, I have.

In game, the characters don't fall far away during gameplay. In movies, a Force Push can send an individual flying far away from the attacker's position.

 

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken about how these powers work in the game. And the only source you have given for the Force Storm power is a reference to how it exists in the games. That gives you no basis for claiming how it might work in "canonical reality".

You should read the text actually. And Novels show that Chain Lightning and Force Storm cover more area and are more effective. The point is that these two advanced forms of Lightning will kill an individual more quickly then a normal Force Lightning.

 

Where did Bandon demonstrate this? And as you have explained so well yourself, not every sith lord has every sith power. And all instances of Drain Knowledge mentioned on Wookieepedia are movie era or later. So for all we know, the power may not even have been known before then.

Try KOTOR 1 again and you will know. He uses "Force Drain" on you frequently.

 

Drain Knowledge and "Force Drain" ability are a same thing in terms of meaning.

 

He was one of the founders of the empire. That would assure him a place. That does not make him one of the most powerful sith lords, however.

And was also powerful. Check his brief as well.

 

Actually, Mandalore also greatly respects the Exile. Indeed, he expresses respect for Bao-Dur's Mass Shadow Generator and the destruction it wrought at Malachor V. It speaks volumes that Mandalore can't even feel any disgust or regret for all those dead Mandalorians who were killed by Bao-Dur's technological terror. Even Bao-Dur shows greater compassion for those dead Mandalorians than any of the Mandalorians do. Yuck!

Did I said that Canderous did not respected "The Exile"? Of-course! he aided Exile for a reason.

 

I didn't realise Revan's page was also locked. But then that just underscores my point.

Right.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Sidious's mastery in the Force was greater then that of Dooku's and that's why his Force attacks were more effective. And Sidious's Lightning attack can't be blocked by a Light Saber as an indication.

Can't be blocked eh? Well explain how Obi-Wan blocked Dooku's lightning attack in AOTC. He didn't use Vaapad style, so it's obviously not limited to the stance of the victim.

 

Sidious's Chain Lightning was more deadly and effective then Dooku's Force Lightning. In AOTC Movie, Yoda blocked Dooku's Force Lightning with his bare hands. But in ROTS movie, when same Yoda faced Sidious, Sidious's Lightning attack blew the damn Light Saber out of Yoda's hand and Yoda could not stop this attack with his bare hands. Thus the level of effectiveness is clearly different.

Did you notice how much closer Yoda is to Sidious than he is to Dooku? I'm thinking Sidious caught him by surprise, and being that close the force of it knocked his lightsaber out.

 

Try KOTOR 1 again and you will know. He uses "Force Drain" on you frequently.

 

Drain Knowledge and "Force Drain" ability are a same thing in terms of meaning.

Wrong. Force Drain in KotOR is not the same thing as Drain Knowledge. In KotOR, it's called Drain Life. Bandon uses Death Field, the more advanced form of Drain Life, but like Force Storm, it does no more damage to your enemies, it just takes life away from everyone around you.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Can't be blocked eh? Well explain how Obi-Wan blocked Dooku's lightning attack in AOTC. He didn't use Vaapad style, so it's obviously not limited to the stance of the victim.

Dooku's mastery in Lightning is not that great and was surely not on par with that of Sidious. Sidious would have pawned Obi-Wan with his Lightning attack as even Yoda failed to block his Lightning attack in his ROTS fight. And Sidious can perform chain Lightning as well but Dooku can't.

 

Did you notice how much closer Yoda is to Sidious than he is to Dooku? I'm thinking Sidious caught him by surprise, and being that close the force of it knocked his lightsaber out.

Yoda can perform "Force Deflect" and in case it fails, then he can absorb DS attacks as well. And distance is irrelevant here. Defensive abilities can be effective even if you are close to the attacker's position. And Yoda was caught in the surprise early in the fight when he was hit by "Force Shock".

 

Sidious blew Yoda's Light Saber out from his hand with his Lightning attack later-on in the fight.

 

Wrong. Force Drain in KotOR is not the same thing as Drain Knowledge. In KotOR, it's called Drain Life. Bandon uses Death Field, the more advanced form of Drain Life, but like Force Storm, it does no more damage to your enemies, it just takes life away from everyone around you.

Ok! Lets call it Drain Life.

[Jediphile]

Force Powers do what they are intended to. You just launch and see the results and results seen in the movies are far better then what we see in the games.

 

Since the powers in the games are made to mirror those in the movies, that does not seem very persuasive to me. They might be more effective outside the games, but not by much really. If they were, the games would reflect it.

 

100 meters is a very safe distance to begin with. And if Revan launches his "Force Storm" from such a far away distance and this is before Nihilus does something and gets hit by it, then Nihilus will be destroyed.

 

Nihilus can lauch his attack from the distance of an orbit around a planet, which would typically be around 35,000 km above the surface of an Earth-sized planet. Far longer than any application of Force Storm in any event.

 

Besides, there is nothing to suggest that Nihilus can't resist force powers himself. Yoda clearly is able to do so, and while we can only speculate on Nihilus' powers in this regard, it is just as reasonable for me to speculate that he can resist this power as it is for you to assume that Revan's Force Storm has a far greater range and power-level than it has in the game mechanics.

 

Have you seen the movies? if yes then you would have noticed that Dooku launched his Lightning attack on Yoda from a very safe distance. The evidence is clear enough.

 

I have both seen all the movies in the cinema several times and own them all on dvd. Clearly Yoda and Dooku were close enough to have a conversation, so clearly any gun has a longer range, which is not what I would call "safe distance".

 

What does your character's game based Force Lightning have to do with canonical reality? And if you haven't noticed yet, their is an advanced form of Force Lightning, which does the samething as you have mentioned here. This is actually called "Chain Lightning".

 

Using "Game Mechanics" as a source of explanation? Oh Boy?

 

Chain Lightning seems to be just a variant of how Force Lightning strikes, which doesn't suggest that it does more damage or has longer reach in any event. And as I have said, using game mechanics to explain things is still better than for any of us to jump to whatever baseless conclusions we want to.

 

Here is a real example:

 

Sidious's Chain Lightning was more deadly and effective then Dooku's Force Lightning. In AOTC Movie, Yoda blocked Dooku's Force Lightning with his bare hands. But in ROTS movie, when same Yoda faced Sidious, Sidious's Lightning attack blew the damn Light Saber out of Yoda's hand and Yoda could not counter this attack with his bare hands. Thus the level of effectiveness is clearly different.

 

Ah, but Yoda DID block Sidious' attack in ROTS. He did that when they were fighting in the senate hall. But you're right that he failed to block it in Palpatine's personal chambers. Now why is that? Could it be because Palpatine simply used his lightning attack before Yoda could put up his defenses? I suspect as much. In either way, Yoda was never surprised by Dooku's attack, so I doubt this the situation is quite as conclusive as you seem to think.

 

And effectiveness of the Force Powers increases in the game due to your better attributes and not due to your levels of experience. The damage of any Force Power remains the same, regardless of how much you "Level-Up".

 

No, better attributes makes it more difficult for opponents to resist taking full damage from your lightning attack. When someone uses a force power, the victim usually gets a "saving throw" to avoid the full effect of the power. In the case of any of the Lightning attacks, making this saving throw means that the damage is cut to half. But if the force-user has good attributes, then the saving throw becomes more difficult to make, and so the attack will tend to inflict more damage on account of more victims failing that saving throw. The damage inflicted by ligtning attacks, however, is determined by the force-user's experience level alone.

 

And by using the logic of the game, both Count Dooku and Sidious will do the same amount of damage if they use the same Lightning power. So "Game Mechanics" are not true and cannot be used in the proper debates.

 

We don't know that they didn't. But I do agree that the D20 rules are stupid and frequently lead to silly assumptions. Going by those rules, there is no way Obi-Wan could ever have defeated Darth Maul, when Maul had just killed Qui-Gon, who was clearly far more experienced Obi-Wan and probably Maul too. Let alone that there is no way Luke could ever have won a fight against Vader AND Palpatine under those rules. I don't like the D20 rules. I have said so before, I will say it again. But however much I dislike them, they are still better than going by completely baseless speculation.

 

And canonically, it depends on how strong your defensive abilities are if you have to successfully counter a Force Attack. Experience is irrelevant in determining the power behind a Force Attack. This is actually more related with your "mastery in the force".

 

Sidious's mastery in the Force was greater then that of Dooku's and that's why his Force attacks were more effective. And Sidious's Lightning attack can't be blocked by a Light Saber as an indication.

 

And Mace's case is different because his Vaapad ability managed to deflect Sidious's attack back at Sidious, which resulted in Sidious getting scarred.

 

So it IS possible to counter Sidious lightning attacks after all? You know, Palpatine only ever uses his force powers against three people during all the movies. One could resist it (Yoda), one could deflect it (Windu), and one was defenseless because he was not even a full jedi knight and had even thrown his lightsaber away (Luke). I don't think that gives us a particularly good basis for concluding how unstoppable Palpatine's force lightning really is...

 

This problem is related to "Game Mechanics".

 

You say that as if "game mechanics" is some magic wand you can wave and then discard the entire argument. I don't entirely agree with you on that. Though game mechanics are not conclusive, neither is canon, and game mechanics always attempt to mirror canon in Star Wars. That makes it at least relevant to consider why the game mechanics have been written the way they have.

 

Some Canonical Force Powers are not limitless but some are actually. And Force Lightning in reality (if not successfully blocked), causes an individual to loose his balance and that victim can't do ****.

 

So, in canon you alone gets to decide what those limits are, if Lucas hasn't defined them for you already? Sorry, but that's not very compelling either...

 

In game, the characters don't fall far away during gameplay. In movies, a Force Push can send an individual flying far away from the attacker's position.

 

You really should try to play a very high leveled Exile using Force Push on someone in an open field or similar. It's true they don't fly far in the Trayus Academy, but what... Did you expect them crash through the walls?

 

You should read the text actually. And Novels show that Chain Lightning and Force Storm cover more area and are more effective. The point is that these two advanced forms of Lightning will kill an individual more quickly then a normal Force Lightning.

 

The movies themselves are not particularly conclusive on this matter. If you accept that Palpatine is the strongest user of force lightning ever, then how do you explain that he zaps Luke again, and again, and again, and Luke STILL doesn't die. If you were right, Luke should have been dead after one blast, but he isn't. You could claim that he's toying with Luke, but it's obvious to me that after saying, "and now, jedi, you will die" he isn't holding back anything and giving Luke the full dose. He certainly is once Vader grabs him, and clearly Vader is still able to throw Palpatine to his death anyway. Now, if Palpatine is the most powerful user of force lightning ever, then how can you EVER claim that Revan's lightning power could instantly kill Nihilus in one attack?!? Sorry, but that really doesn't add up.

 

Try KOTOR 1 again and you will know. He uses "Force Drain" on you frequently.

 

Drain Knowledge and "Force Drain" ability are a same thing in terms of meaning.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Knowledge

and

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Drain

 

Wookieepedia would seem to disagree with you. So do I, btw.

 

Did I said that Canderous did not respected "The Exile"? Of-course! he aided Exile for a reason.

 

You claimed only Revan earned the respect of the Mandalorians. Or at least you managed to imply it. But the Exile and Bao-Dur earned respect too, though for different reasons than Revan.

 

And actually, the Mandalorians' respect for Revan would only mirror the respect they had for Exar Kun. The Mandalorians actually joined Exar Kun in his crusade. They never did that for Revan, when he turned against the jedi.

[The Sith'ari]

Wrong. Force Drain in KotOR is not the same thing as Drain Knowledge. In KotOR, it's called Drain Life. Bandon uses Death Field, the more advanced form of Drain Life, but like Force Storm, it does no more damage to your enemies, it just takes life away from everyone around you.

 

I know your argument, and I read Jediphile's, and I totally understand the explantion based on the game mechanics. Right, like, in the game, Drain life and Death Field inflict identical amount of damage on each single person, but the latter does that to multiple persons. But in reality, if the force used to inflict damage to multiple persons is focused on one single person, it'd seem more logical to think that More damage would be done. Thus, the ability to do Death Field may mean the ability to inflict gruesomer damage on one single person. I guess it's not too remote to come up with this suggestion.

 

Of course, we don't actually know how the Force works. All that we can base on is in-game mechanics. But as much as I agree that we shouldn't imagine the force to work in whatever extent we want it to, I think we should not solely rely on the game mechanics to draw conclusions of how the force actually works in reality. That's why I came up with the suggestion I gave in the above paragraph.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Since the powers in the games are made to mirror those in the movies, that does not seem very persuasive to me. They might be more effective outside the games, but not by much really. If they were, the games would reflect it.

Powers in the games do mirror that of in the movies but they are not as effective. And I think that in KOTOR 3, they should make gameplay powers as close to canonical reality as possible.

 

Nihilus can lauch his attack from the distance of an orbit around a planet, which would typically be around 35,000 km above the surface of an Earth-sized planet. Far longer than any application of Force Storm in any event.

I agree! But he had proper time to prepare for such an event and the Jedi never knew that what was coming. And in a one-on-one situation, time is short and you have to react very fast.

 

Besides, there is nothing to suggest that Nihilus can't resist force powers himself. Yoda clearly is able to do so, and while we can only speculate on Nihilus' powers in this regard, it is just as reasonable for me to speculate that he can resist this power as it is for you to assume that Revan's Force Storm has a far greater range and power-level than it has in the game mechanics.

Of-course! Nihilus would have had his own defensive abilties but what are they exactly?

 

And Force Storm can't be deflected like Force Lightning because it's style of hitting an opponent is different and their are many Lightning bolts in it coming straight on your head with massive intensity. And "Force Immunity" is not canon.

 

I have both seen all the movies in the cinema several times and own them all on dvd. Clearly Yoda and Dooku were close enough to have a conversation, so clearly any gun has a longer range, which is not what I would call "safe distance".

They were still positioned many yards away from each other. And people can talk loud.

 

Chain Lightning seems to be just a variant of how Force Lightning strikes, which doesn't suggest that it does more damage or has longer reach in any event. And as I have said, using game mechanics to explain things is still better than for any of us to jump to whatever baseless conclusions we want to.

Really? check this then: http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sidiouspwnsnx0.jpg (this image is from a Canon Novel of Sidious)

 

Does normal Lightning comes even close to intensity of this attack?

 

And Game Mechanics are not good for proper explanation of Force Powers because they don't mirror canonical damage. And some gameplay powers are not even canon like "Force Immunity" and "Force Heal". You don't heal your physical wounds with the Force and "Force Immunity" has never been demonstrated in canon materials. And "Force Deflect" is true canon defensive power and it is performed through hands.

 

Ah, but Yoda DID block Sidious' attack in ROTS. He did that when they were fighting in the senate hall. But you're right that he failed to block it in Palpatine's personal chambers. Now why is that? Could it be because Palpatine simply used his lightning attack before Yoda could put up his defenses? I suspect as much. In either way, Yoda was never surprised by Dooku's attack, so I doubt this the situation is quite as conclusive as you seem to think.

He tried to block it and look at his face expressions then. And he finally fell apart due to the sheer intensity behind Sidious's Lightining, so Yoda's defense was not successful.

 

No, better attributes makes it more difficult for opponents to resist taking full damage from your lightning attack. When someone uses a force power, the victim usually gets a "saving throw" to avoid the full effect of the power. In the case of any of the Lightning attacks, making this saving throw means that the damage is cut to half. But if the force-user has good attributes, then the saving throw becomes more difficult to make, and so the attack will tend to inflict more damage on account of more victims failing that saving throw. The damage inflicted by ligtning attacks, however, is determined by the force-user's experience level alone.

I have not noticed that Force powers become more effective with "Leveling-Up". They do not actually.

 

We don't know that they didn't. But I do agree that the D20 rules are stupid and frequently lead to silly assumptions. Going by those rules, there is no way Obi-Wan could ever have defeated Darth Maul, when Maul had just killed Qui-Gon, who was clearly far more experienced Obi-Wan and probably Maul too. Let alone that there is no way Luke could ever have won a fight against Vader AND Palpatine under those rules. I don't like the D20 rules. I have said so before, I will say it again. But however much I dislike them, they are still better than going by completely baseless speculation.

Obi-Wan won through a surprising move!

 

And "Gameplay Mechanics" are also not good way to explain the effectiveness of Force Powers because they also involve D20 rules.

 

So it IS possible to counter Sidious lightning attacks after all? You know, Palpatine only ever uses his force powers against three people during all the movies. One could resist it (Yoda), one could deflect it (Windu), and one was defenseless because he was not even a full jedi knight and had even thrown his lightsaber away (Luke). I don't think that gives us a particularly good basis for concluding how unstoppable Palpatine's force lightning really is...

 

- Yoda failed to successfully deflect it. I have explained the reason above.

- Mace's Vaapad gave him the advantage and others don't have this ability.

- Luke was not powerful enough to block Sidious's Lightning attack even with his Light Saber, because even Yoda could not do this.

 

And Lightning kills you slowly but painfully because it works in a continuous fashion. But in KOTOR games, Lightning is not continuous, which is an additional reason that Lightning is not accurately mirrored in the games.

 

You say that as if "game mechanics" is some magic wand you can wave and then discard the entire argument. I don't entirely agree with you on that. Though game mechanics are not conclusive, neither is canon, and game mechanics always attempt to mirror canon in Star Wars. That makes it at least relevant to consider why the game mechanics have been written the way they have.

No! "Game Mechanics" only follow certain rules that do not apply properly in canonical reality of Star Wars.

 

So, in canon you alone gets to decide what those limits are, if Lucas hasn't defined them for you already? Sorry, but that's not very compelling either...

You can take an example of a "Force Storm" power demonstrated by Sidious in Dark Empire EU based event and that power was limitless and it destroyed an entire fleet. So my point stands that not all canon Force Powers are limited.

 

You really should try to play a very high leveled Exile using Force Push on someone in an open field or similar. It's true they don't fly far in the Trayus Academy, but what... Did you expect them crash through the walls?

I will try it.

 

The movies themselves are not particularly conclusive on this matter. If you accept that Palpatine is the strongest user of force lightning ever, then how do you explain that he zaps Luke again, and again, and again, and Luke STILL doesn't die. If you were right, Luke should have been dead after one blast, but he isn't. You could claim that he's toying with Luke, but it's obvious to me that after saying, "and now, jedi, you will die" he isn't holding back anything and giving Luke the full dose. He certainly is once Vader grabs him, and clearly Vader is still able to throw Palpatine to his death anyway. Now, if Palpatine is the most powerful user of force lightning ever, then how can you EVER claim that Revan's lightning power could instantly kill Nihilus in one attack?!? Sorry, but that really doesn't add up.

Force Lightning in canonical reality kills slowly but painfully. Although, its more advanced variant like "Force Storm" kills more quickly because several bolts of Lightning hits an individual instantly from above in that power.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Knowledge

and

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Drain

 

Wookieepedia would seem to disagree with you. So do I, btw.

Lets call it Drain Life then.

 

You claimed only Revan earned the respect of the Mandalorians. Or at least you managed to imply it. But the Exile and Bao-Dur earned respect too, though for different reasons than Revan.

No! I said that Revan was among those who earned respect of Mandalorians.

 

And actually, the Mandalorians' respect for Revan would only mirror the respect they had for Exar Kun. The Mandalorians actually joined Exar Kun in his crusade. They never did that for Revan, when he turned against the jedi.

Both events took place at different times and Exar Kun was planning to destroy Republic and Jedi, so his plans were similar as that of Mandalorians. So Mandalorians had a good enough reason to join him.

[Jediphile]

Of-course! Nihilus would have had his own defensive abilties but what are they exactly?

 

Not sure, but I'd be surprised if they were less than Yoda's, absorbing power apparently being what Nihilus does best.

 

And Force Storm can't be deflected like Force Lightning because it's style of hitting an opponent is different and their are many Lightning bolts in it coming straight on your head with massive intensity. And "Force Immunity" is not canon.

 

Electricity damage is electricity damage, no matter how you deliver it. You're either protected from or you're not. So coming from different angles might not matter a whole lot, unless you're using some sort of physical shield to deflect it, which is not relevant in this case.

 

They were still positioned many yards away from each other. And people can talk loud.

 

20-30 yards is already pushing it with a war quite literally going on outside.

 

Really? check this then: http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sidiouspwnsnx0.jpg (this image is from a Canon Novel of Sidious)

 

Does normal Lightning comes even close to intensity of this attack?

 

That's an impressive display of force lightning and no mistake. But yes, lightning does come close to that. The arc is just wider than usual.

 

And Game Mechanics are not good for proper explanation of Force Powers because they don't mirror canonical damage.

 

Well, I can scarcely argue with you there, because the "hit points" or "vitality" of d20 games is one of my own pet peeves with that system. Lightning should paralyze and cause horrible burns and so, as it did with Luke, but the game rules don't reflect that sort of thing at all, which is one reason why I really hate d20 rules. Still, if we abandon them completely, then we have no basis for discussion. Or we get to claim whatever with want to. Neither of which is very enlightening.

 

And some gameplay powers are not even canon like "Force Immunity" and "Force Heal". You don't heal your physical wounds with the Force and "Force Immunity" has never been demonstrated in canon materials. And "Force Deflect" is true canon defensive power and it is performed through hands.

 

Actually, I've always thought that Obi-Wan used Force Heal or some version of it on Luke, when he put his hand over him after the Sand People attack in Episode IV. Isn't it odd that Luke is struck down and lies there unconscious, apparently lifeless, but when Obi-Wan bends over him, he wakes up immediately? Definitely something going on there, I think. So it's not as if there is no basis in canon for claiming that. And if we accept Force Resistance, then it's easy to accept Force Immunity, since it really is just a more powerful version of the same ability. I'd say it's about the same ability as you call Force Deflect. Besides, I can find no entry for Force Deflect on Wookieepediea, whereas Force Immunity is right here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Immunity

 

He tried to block it and look at his face expressions then. And he finally fell apart due to the sheer intensity behind Sidious's Lightining, so Yoda's defense was not successful.

 

It was, because Sidious never got to fire that lightning attack fully. He kept pushing for it, but then so did Yoda. The result was not that Yoda was fried. No. The result was that resonance of power between the two caused a burst that sent them both flying. Yoda just happened to be unlucky that this sent him flying to the bottom of the senate hall, whereas Sidious was able to hold onto the side of the "chair." Clearly the power is not unstoppable, and given Sidious' level of power with this ability, it's rather impressive that Yoda was able to keep it at bay at all. But he did.

 

I have not noticed that Force powers become more effective with "Leveling-Up". They do not actually.

 

Actually, most of them do, only you might not notice that, since the game balances all your enemies to reflect your new power level, and therefore nothing seems to change. If you don't want to argue game rules, then fair enough, but if you do, you should at least take a look at how those mechanics work first. It's not as if there aren't plenty of game guides out there that explain it all.

 

Obi-Wan won through a surprising move!

 

Yes, but my point is that the rules don't reflect that possibility. D20 combat rules is just boring dice-rolling until someone drops dead. There is no surprise or strategy in them IMHO, which is my major problem with them.

 

And "Gameplay Mechanics" are also not good way to explain the effectiveness of Force Powers because they also involve D20 rules.

 

I actually agree with that, but I'll take it over having no frame of reference at all.

 

- Yoda failed to successfully deflect it. I have explained the reason above.

 

You have claimed it, but you have not convinced me. It still seems obvious to me that Yoda blocked Sidious' attack. If you look carefully, you'll even see that Yoda wants to jump Sidious with his lightsaber, but Sidious zaps him, knocking his lightsaber out his hands. Yoda is right on the edge already, YET HE DOESN'T FALL OVER. In fact, had Yoda moved backwards at all, he would have fallen down already, so clearly lightning doesn't strike as strongly as you suggest. Sidious then pushes the attack, and Yoda begins to deflect it. As Sidious pushes forward and pours power into the attack, you'll note Yoda deflecting it and befriely leaning backwards from the assault, before he then begins actually PUSHING THE ATTACK BACK ON SIDIOUS. Indeed, he pushes it all the way back to Sidious' very hands, at which point the collision of power between the two of them "erupts" in a burst that sends them both flying. If you want to see it, the entire bit begins exactly 1 hour 48 minutes and 55 seconds into the movie on my dvd. And yes, I've just checked it again to make sure I'm right

 

- Mace's Vaapad gave him the advantage and others don't have this ability.

 

Ah, "uber-power not available to other people." Always nice. But wait, Obi-Wan deflected Dooku's lightning attack with HIS lightsaber in Episode II. Although you can claim that Sidious is more powerful, that does seem to speak against your point that Windu doing so is completely unique for that character alone, I think.

 

- Luke was not powerful enough to block Sidious's Lightning attack even with his Light Saber, because even Yoda could not do this.

 

Just because Yoda didn't pull it off does not mean that it's not possible. Obi-Wan did it against Dooku, and Yoda and Sidious are both stronger than either of them.

 

And Lightning kills you slowly but painfully because it works in a continuous fashion. But in KOTOR games, Lightning is not continuous, which is an additional reason that Lightning is not accurately mirrored in the games.

 

But suddenly Force Storm is instant in canon? Why? Because otherwise your argument is flawed? As others have pointed out, we actually don't know that Revan's use of Force Storm then wasn't a continuous lightning attack against the One's warriors and beasts either.

 

You can take an example of a "Force Storm" power demonstrated by Sidious in Dark Empire EU based event and that power was limitless and it destroyed an entire fleet. So my point stands that not all canon Force Powers are limited.

 

Although Leia that power is called Force Storm, it clearly is not the Force Storm power you have been describing here. And we certainly have no basis for claiming that Revan has that power. Especially not since Luke reveals that having used that power, Palpatine has unleashed a chaos that even he cannot control. Revan was always careful about that sort of thing - always the strategist, he never unleashed anything he couldn't control himself. That's why he never used the Star Forge to its full potential, after all.

 

So even then there are limits, because even Palpatine couldn't control that power, and obviously it did not destroy the entire Alliance fleet. Also, by merely focusing on separating Palpatine from his use of the power, Luke and Leia turn it on Palpatine himself. As impressive a display of destruction as it is, you really do have to admit that this very force storm is also what destroys Palpatine himself in that confrontation. So I don't think it's a power that Revan would ever use, and certainly not in a casual encounter with a few rakatan warriors and other beasts. And that's assuming Revan even has the power, which I find highly doutbful.

 

Force Lightning in canonical reality kills slowly but painfully. Although, its more advanced variant like "Force Storm" kills more quickly because several bolts of Lightning hits an individual instantly from above in that power.

 

Ah, but you have no canonic use of Force Storm to support that claim. The only canonic use of Force Storm you have mentioned is a description by The One, and we have no idea how instant or continuous that Force Storm was. Force Lighting is instant in the game mechanics, just as Force Storm is. But you say lightning is more continuous in canon. Might the same not then also apply to force storm? That would seem to be a reasonable conclusion to me.

[jonathan7]

Woah, lets stop at this point; Yoda stopped Sidious Lightning in the Senate Chamber, infact Yoda had pain on his face but then came back with a determined look on his face, and Sidious looked like he was struggling, it was a draw; - Sidious cought Yoda of guard once, and that didnt do jack to the little green master, and at the end they both fell back after the collision of LS and DS powers. You grossely over estimate the power of force lightning as in no star was film has it ever killed anyone (unless you count vader, but even then that was because it fried his life support circuits)

 

I cant be bothered arguing with your own stuborness and Jediphile is doing an admirable job (well done!)

[Melly]

"They tried to take you prisoner, but you unleashed your magic - what you called the Force - upon them. Seeing your power they bowed before you and brought you here to me."

 

"You came to us after defeating our scouts who confronted you, much as you have again this time. The One saw your power... and your desire for the knowledge inside the Temple."

 

QFE

 

That's what the One says about Revan's attack on the his scouts (I know because I checked the dialog files after ED posted that). There is absolutly no mention of Force Lightning or Force Storm. Just that Revan used her "magic" on them. Which could have been anything from pushing them with the Force to choking them to death.

[The Architect]

*Sigh*

 

Looks like I’ll have to clear some things up here, to do with the topic that is.

 

First of all, not once have I claimed that Darth Nihilus was a force god. Secondly, I never said that if you praise Revan’s abilities, then you’re a fan boy. Thirdly, what could Revan do to stop Nihilus?

 

Keep in mind that Nihilus’ life draining ability stretches across thousands of miles, and he is drawn to great gatherings of Jedi and those who are strong in the force, like Revan, so if Revan even got within 100km of Nihilus, he/she would basically die. Nihilus would be able to detect Revan if he/she got ‘within range’.

 

Now, how does Nihilus’ power work?

 

"My people never saw his face when he struck — but they heard his voice. When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died. The destruction of Katarr echoed through the Force, the screaming of countless lives."

—Visas Marr

 

Now tell me why this wouldn’t work on Revan? I’d say this is game over. Why would Kreia (who taught Revan) infer to the Exile that if he/she didn’t stop Nihilus then he would consume all life?

 

At the end of the day though, Revan is never going to fight Nihilus, so this discussion is pointless. And S_W_LeGenD, you’ve strayed way off topic. This isn’t about proving that Revan was powerful, this is about who would win in a fight between Revan and Nihilus.

 

I’ll just say one thing though. If Mission and T3-M4 were useless according to Revan for the battle of the Star Forge, then why did he/she take them with him/her on the Star Forge in the first place? To look after the Ebon Hawk? No. That’s what those half a dozen Jedi Knights were there for.

 

You have to understand that ‘gameplay mechanics’ is the only reason why Revan never took all of his/her companions with him/her out of the Ebon Hawk for the Star Forge battle, since you can only take two companions at max. From a plot perspective, Revan would have taken all of his/her companions with him/her on the Star Forge.

 

And one more thing, I admit that Revan was powerful and unique in his/her timeline, but still IMO not great enough to be among the most powerful Jedi and Sith of all time. Revan is definitely overrated though, thanks to the stupid fan boys, who make rubbish claims that Revan was immortal, that Revan was alive in the movie era, that Revan was the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever, that Revan was the Sith’ari, that Revan was Anakin’s ancestor and blah blah blah. The list goes on.

[The Sith'ari]

Secondly, I never said that if you praise Revan’s abilities, then you’re a fan boy.

I guess you're referring to one of my posts/ sig? I never said you did that either. What I wrote was just a general comment.

 

Keep in mind that Nihilus’ life draining ability stretches across thousands of miles, and he is drawn to great gatherings of Jedi and those who are strong in the force, like Revan, so if Revan even got within 100km of Nihilus, he/she would basically die. Nihilus would be able to detect Revan if he/she got ‘within range’.

 

That'd be so. But I think this VS thread is about each other knowing they're about to fight, face to face, and that's the assumption based on which we're all discussing.

 

Now, how does Nihilus’ power work?

 

"My people never saw his face when he struck — but they heard his voice. When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died. The destruction of Katarr echoed through the Force, the screaming of countless lives."

—Visas Marr

 

Now tell me why this wouldn’t work on Revan?

 

Of course this works on Revan, if like you said Nihilus is undetected by Revan and strikes from a distance. This paragraph was lifted out just to question Emerpor Devon's "proof" of Nihilus being able to drain life even when he's under major attack. That in turn was being discussed because we had the assumption that Revan and Nih were having a one on one, face to face fight as if in an arena.

 

Why would Kreia (who taught Revan) infer to the Exile that if he/she didn’t stop Nihilus then he would consume all life?

What Kreia implied was true. I believe Nihilus do have this ability given how he destroyed an entire planet. But again, the matter comes down to whether he can exert this ability in close, immediate combat, in this one on one thread.

 

Now of course you'd say "one on one" could still mean they're fighting each other from a great distance. In that way, I'd concur that with absolutely no doubt Nihilus pawns.

 

And S_W_LeGenD, you’ve strayed way off topic. This isn’t about proving that Revan was powerful, this is about who would win in a fight between Revan and Nihilus.

Agreed. The previous discussion was way too off topic.

 

And one more thing, I admit that Revan was powerful and unique in his/her timeline, but still IMO not great enough to be among the most powerful Jedi and Sith of all time.

That's true. Or else he wouldn't have only started to appear in a video game anyway. Just kidding. But like we said, in terms of a force wielder he is definitely not among the most powerful, but a person is not only accounted on his amount of midichlorians. One strong in the force but with no brain can't flourish without the force. And Revan seems to me to be brainy enough, and with his wield of the force fairly strong, to rise over some jedi that you mentioned.

 

Revan is definitely overrated though, thanks to the stupid fan boys, who make rubbish claims that Revan was immortal, that Revan was alive in the movie era, that Revan was the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever, that Revan was the Sith’ari, that Revan was Anakin’s ancestor and blah blah blah. The list goes on.

All of these claims are pretty stupid, but one thing: I know Anakin is the Sith'ari, but is Revan? It seems to me he fits in with the definition quite well. But of course, if there could only be one sithari ever, it'd be Anakin, all because he's in the original movies.

[The Architect]

I guess you're referring to one of my posts/ sig? I never said you did that either. What I wrote was just a general comment.

 

The question is, what made you type that sig? My comments, perhaps?

 

That'd be so. But I think this VS thread is about each other knowing they're about to fight, face to face, and that's the assumption based on which we're all discussing.

 

That's what I think too. This would mean that Revan would lose though. All Nihilus has to do is speak. No one is quick enough to counter that. No one. Besides, even if Revan was really quick, who says that Nihilus is a slow coach? Revan wouldn't be able to get close enough to Nihilus in the first place, since he'd detect him, speak, then Revan would die. Simple.

 

Of course this works on Revan, if like you said Nihilus is undetected by Revan and strikes from a distance. This paragraph was lifted out just to question Emerpor Devon's "proof" of Nihilus being able to drain life even when he's under major attack. That in turn was being discussed because we had the assumption that Revan and Nih were having a one on one, face to face fight as if in an arena.

 

Even if Revan detected Nihilus, why wouldn't it work? As I've said, Revan wouldn't be able to get close enough to Nihilus in the first place, since he'd detect him, speak, then Revan would die. Simple.

 

What Kreia implied was true. I believe Nihilus do have this ability given how he destroyed an entire planet. But again, the matter comes down to whether he can exert this ability in close, immediate combat, in this one on one thread.

 

Why wouldn't he be able to? Why wouldn't this power work in close combat? All he has to do is speak. And again, Revan wouldn't be able to get close enough to Nihilus in the first place, since he'd detect him, speak, then Revan would die. Simple.

 

Now of course you'd say "one on one" could still mean they're fighting each other from a great distance. In that way, I'd concur that with absolutely no doubt Nihilus pawns.

 

That's right.

 

That's true. Or else he wouldn't have only started to appear in a video game anyway. Just kidding. But like we said, in terms of a force wielder he is definitely not among the most powerful, but a person is not only accounted on his amount of midichlorians. One strong in the force but with no brain can't flourish without the force. And Revan seems to me to be brainy enough, and with his wield of the force fairly strong, to rise over some jedi that you mentioned.

 

Agreed. Revan was powerful and well, intelligent...I guess. However, Revan was stupid for over estimating his/her abilities (if he/she sacrificed himself/herself to the dark side that is) and the so called 'master plan' to save the Republic by starting a massive war that would only weaken them was not only ridiculous but it ah, never turned out to be successful did it?

 

Also, it's quite odd how Revan never saw Malak's betrayal coming, since:

 

a) It is the way of the Sith

b) Revan should know his/her best friend well enough to have seen the betrayal coming

c) Malak is just that type of character to do such a thing

 

This answers your previous question of why I said Revan was stupid before. Mind you, I was being too harsh.

 

All of these claims are pretty stupid, but one thing: I know Anakin is the Sith'ari, but is Revan? It seems to me he fits in with the definition quite well. But of course, if there could only be one sithari ever, it'd be Anakin, all because he's in the original movies.

 

You know Anakin is the Sith'ari, yet you say that Revan fits in with the definition quite well? What the hell? How does Revan fit in with the definition quite well, and how do you know if Anakin is/isn't the Sith'ari?

[The Sith'ari]

The question is, what made you type that sig? My comments, perhaps?

 

Yes, and that's because you were being unduly harsh, which you admitted. And I wondered why you were being unduly harsh, so it inspired me to write my sig. Not directed to you however, it's just an inspired comment.

 

All Nihilus has to do is speak.

But you're not getting the point of argument here. Yes, Visas said all the jedi there only heard him speak, and they died. But what's being questioned here is how much focused Nihilus has to be when he drains the hell out of everything. He can speak and kill, but he may have to be focused while doing so. I just wanna point out that there's no evidence whatsoever that points to a definitive conclusion.

 

You know Anakin is the Sith'ari, yet you say that Revan fits in with the definition quite well? What the hell?

Why, the two sentences can't co-exist logically? Why "what the hell"? Even if Anakin was really the Sithari, sure others can be speculated to FIT IN with the definition of it. I was merely suggesting a possibility, for the sake of open discussion. You didn't really have to get all heated and WTH me. That's just uncalled for.

 

How does Revan fit in with the definition quite well

Other than Anakin, Revan and Darth Bane are speculated to be the sithari. Why, because they all seem to fit in with the definition of the sith'ari to a certain extent. For details you can look at some discussions in the internet or wookiepedia.

 

and how do you know if Anakin is/isn't the Sith'ari?

How do I know Anakin's the sathari? Well, I don't know. He's just one of the popular candidates speculated by the public, others being Revan and Darth Bane. I apologize I used the wrong word.

 

It's futile to go on arguing on things that beget different outcomes based on various assumptions. Like I said, better case closed.

[Jediphile]

Yes, Visas said all the jedi there only heard him speak, and they died. But what's being questioned here is how much focused Nihilus has to be when he drains the hell out of everything. He can speak and kill, but he may have to be focused while doing so. I just wanna point out that there's no evidence whatsoever that points to a definitive conclusion.

 

Well, we know from Nihilus' fight with the Exile that he can use his drain powers even during a fight when he's taking damage. The cut content shows a similar fight between Nihilus and Sion. We can discard that as cut content, but not Nihilus' fight with the Exile. And it's pretty clear to me that the Exile would have died in that fight, had the Exile not been a wound in the force that Nihilus cannot drain. Basically, Nihilus was trying to suck down a void and was himself drained for it. And as far as I can tell that is the ONLY reason the Exile can win that fight, because once Nihilus uses his drain-power, it's game over and somebody's going to die. Now the Exile is a definite problem as a wound in the force, but Revan would be tasty meal, precisely because Revan IS powerful in the force. In this case it only works against Revan, because strong force powers are what attracts Nihilus and nourishes him. So from a distance, we all seem to agree that Revan would be doomed, and in close we know Nihilus can still use his draining powers even in a fight. I don't see how Revan can ever win such a fight.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Not sure, but I'd be surprised if they were less than Yoda's, absorbing power apparently being what Nihilus does best.

An assumption and thats it. Not very convincing.

 

Electricity damage is electricity damage, no matter how you deliver it. You're either protected from or you're not. So coming from different angles might not matter a whole lot, unless you're using some sort of physical shield to deflect it, which is not relevant in this case.

Electricity damage is deadly to living bodies. It causes horrible burns and continuous zapping from it will kill an individual.

 

20-30 yards is already pushing it with a war quite literally going on outside.

Still is safe distance. Sion was only 7-8 feet away when Nihilus launched his attack on him.

 

That's an impressive display of force lightning and no mistake. But yes, lightning does come close to that. The arc is just wider than usual.

No! normal Lightning does not comes close to that. Their are several Lightning bolts in Sidious's attack and this does not happens in case of normal Lightning attack (because normal Lightning cannot hit so many individuals). Get your eyes checked.

 

Well, I can scarcely argue with you there, because the "hit points" or "vitality" of d20 games is one of my own pet peeves with that system. Lightning should paralyze and cause horrible burns and so, as it did with Luke, but the game rules don't reflect that sort of thing at all, which is one reason why I really hate d20 rules. Still, if we abandon them completely, then we have no basis for discussion. Or we get to claim whatever with want to. Neither of which is very enlightening.

So you are also having troubles with rules applied in "Game Mechanics" as well. So why not admit this in clear terms?

 

Actually, I've always thought that Obi-Wan used Force Heal or some version of it on Luke, when he put his hand over him after the Sand People attack in Episode IV. Isn't it odd that Luke is struck down and lies there unconscious, apparently lifeless, but when Obi-Wan bends over him, he wakes up immediately? Definitely something going on there, I think. So it's not as if there is no basis in canon for claiming that. And if we accept Force Resistance, then it's easy to accept Force Immunity, since it really is just a more powerful version of the same ability. I'd say it's about the same ability as you call Force Deflect. Besides, I can find no entry for Force Deflect on Wookieepediea, whereas Force Immunity is right here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Immunity

Force Immunity is not canon and we don't see this power being demonstrated in Novels and Movies. And Novels and movies are greater canon materials then Games.

 

Wookieepedia is not 100% perfect and I have mentioned this before.

It was, because Sidious never got to fire that lightning attack fully. He kept pushing for it, but then so did Yoda. The result was not that Yoda was fried. No. The result was that resonance of power between the two caused a burst that sent them both flying. Yoda just happened to be unlucky that this sent him flying to the bottom of the senate hall, whereas Sidious was able to hold onto the side of the "chair." Clearly the power is not unstoppable, and given Sidious' level of power with this ability, it's rather impressive that Yoda was able to keep it at bay at all. But he did.

Yoda managed to counter it but he was semi-successful. But in case of Dooku, he properly countered his Lightning attack, so difference is clear.

 

And Yoda fell apart and where he actually fell is irrelevant.

 

Actually, most of them do, only you might not notice that, since the game balances all your enemies to reflect your new power level, and therefore nothing seems to change. If you don't want to argue game rules, then fair enough, but if you do, you should at least take a look at how those mechanics work first. It's not as if there aren't plenty of game guides out there that explain it all.

Yes! I am not using "Game Mechanics" and I will not do that because some rules used in "Game Mechanics" are not accurate in terms of Canonical Reality.

 

Yes, but my point is that the rules don't reflect that possibility. D20 combat rules is just boring dice-rolling until someone drops dead. There is no surprise or strategy in them IMHO, which is my major problem with them.

So "Game Mechanics" have its own flaws and are not ideal in debates.

 

You have claimed it, but you have not convinced me. It still seems obvious to me that Yoda blocked Sidious' attack. If you look carefully, you'll even see that Yoda wants to jump Sidious with his lightsaber, but Sidious zaps him, knocking his lightsaber out his hands. Yoda is right on the edge already, YET HE DOESN'T FALL OVER. In fact, had Yoda moved backwards at all, he would have fallen down already, so clearly lightning doesn't strike as strongly as you suggest. Sidious then pushes the attack, and Yoda begins to deflect it. As Sidious pushes forward and pours power into the attack, you'll note Yoda deflecting it and befriely leaning backwards from the assault, before he then begins actually PUSHING THE ATTACK BACK ON SIDIOUS. Indeed, he pushes it all the way back to Sidious' very hands, at which point the collision of power between the two of them "erupts" in a burst that sends them both flying. If you want to see it, the entire bit begins exactly 1 hour 48 minutes and 55 seconds into the movie on my dvd. And yes, I've just checked it again to make sure I'm right

Yoda blocked Sidious attack with his "Force Deflect" ability and not with the Light Saber. Their is clear distinction between these two blocking abilities. And Yoda's defense was semi-successful and finally he falls apart.

 

Ah, "uber-power not available to other people." Always nice. But wait, Obi-Wan deflected Dooku's lightning attack with HIS lightsaber in Episode II. Although you can claim that Sidious is more powerful, that does seem to speak against your point that Windu doing so is completely unique for that character alone, I think.

Obi-Wan does not knows Vaapad. And Dooku's mastery in Lightning is not on par with that of Sidious. My points are clear.

 

Just because Yoda didn't pull it off does not mean that it's not possible. Obi-Wan did it against Dooku, and Yoda and Sidious are both stronger than either of them.

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in the movies. His defensive abilities are far better then that of Luke in ROTJ. So if Yoda failed to block Sidious's Lightning with his Light Saber, then Luke stands no chance.

 

But suddenly Force Storm is instant in canon? Why? Because otherwise your argument is flawed? As others have pointed out, we actually don't know that Revan's use of Force Storm then wasn't a continuous lightning attack against the One's warriors and beasts either.

Force Storm attack has been described in a narration and narrations are canon. And also Force Storm has been demonstrated by Darth Bane and this was mentioned in POD Novel, and Novels are higher source of canon then Games. So Force Storm is clearly canon power.

 

Although Leia that power is called Force Storm, it clearly is not the Force Storm power you have been describing here. And we certainly have no basis for claiming that Revan has that power. Especially not since Luke reveals that having used that power, Palpatine has unleashed a chaos that even he cannot control. Revan was always careful about that sort of thing - always the strategist, he never unleashed anything he couldn't control himself. That's why he never used the Star Forge to its full potential, after all.

I know that Force Storm (demonstrated in DE by Sidious) is a different power. But my point is that not all canonical powers are limited to a certain radius and this power is one such example. And I have never claimed that Revan has this power so stop putting words in my mounth as well.

 

So even then there are limits, because even Palpatine couldn't control that power, and obviously it did not destroy the entire Alliance fleet. Also, by merely focusing on separating Palpatine from his use of the power, Luke and Leia turn it on Palpatine himself. As impressive a display of destruction as it is, you really do have to admit that this very force storm is also what destroys Palpatine himself in that confrontation. So I don't think it's a power that Revan would ever use, and certainly not in a casual encounter with a few rakatan warriors and other beasts. And that's assuming Revan even has the power, which I find highly doutbful.

Leia used "Battle Meditation" ability to stop it. Now Nihilus does not have this ability or does he?

 

Ah, but you have no canonic use of Force Storm to support that claim. The only canonic use of Force Storm you have mentioned is a description by The One, and we have no idea how instant or continuous that Force Storm was. Force Lighting is instant in the game mechanics, just as Force Storm is. But you say lightning is more continuous in canon. Might the same not then also apply to force storm? That would seem to be a reasonable conclusion to me.

Yes! I have provided two things that make Force Storm canon:

 

- Narration.

- POD Novel.

 

And in case you forgot that The One also said that Revan's attack came from above (Sky) and then hit his warriors. Normal Lightning does not hits individuals from above.

[The Sith'ari]

Well, we know from Nihilus' fight with the Exile that he can use his drain powers even during a fight when he's taking damage...

I see. Where actually shows that he used the drain powers against the exile? If so, I overlooked it. That would wrap things up then.

[Jediphile]

I see. Where actually shows that he used the drain powers against the exile? If so, I overlooked it. That would wrap things up then.

 

I hear people saying that you can avoid Nihilus using this power, but I've never been able to avoid it myself - every time I play through that fight, I get a scene where Nihilus tries to use a power using the Drain Life animation, and then he stumbles over briefly, as if he's having a fit, while the Exile just stands there wondering what is going on.

 

It's at this point the Exile should have said, "Must be something you absorbed!"

 

But even if it's possible to avoid that sequence in the game (and I've never known that to happen myself), my point is that Nihilus can do it. And I think he's be more likely to do it to Revan, since Revan is basically soaking in Force, while the Exile is dry as a sponge. Revan would be irresistible to Nihilus. He'd take one sniff and go "yummy!"

[The Sith'ari]

... funny and apt metaphors.

 

But after that scene someone said "It's still consuming you doesnt it", so I took it that he just sort of "ran out of force", like the drug addicts do when they run out of drugs. Didn't know he actually tried to use his drain powers. Maybe I will play K2 some more.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Electricity damage is deadly to living bodies. It causes horrible burns and continuous zapping from it will kill an individual.

I would rather not be drawn into this discussion again, but I need to point out some things. So Revan's apparent attack on the Rakata didn't kill them instantly, that's what you're saying.

 

Still is safe distance. Sion was only 7-8 feet away when Nihilus launched his attack on him.

That is cut content. It was never included in the game. Therefore, it is not canon.

 

Yoda managed to counter it but he was semi-successful. But in case of Dooku, he properly countered his Lightning attack, so difference is clear.

 

And Yoda fell apart and where he actually fell is irrelevant.

 

Yoda blocked Sidious attack with his "Force Deflect" ability and not with the Light Saber. Their is clear distinction between these two blocking abilities. And Yoda's defense was semi-successful and finally he falls apart.

Yoda was not semi-successful and he did not fall apart- he was successful.

 

The reason he lost his lightsaber was not because Sidious' lightning was so powerful, it was because he was taken by surprise.

 

Yoda successfully blocked Sidious' lightning. He first attempted to absorb it, but that was unssuccessful, so he decided to shoot it back at Sidious. The contact between the lightning and Sidious' hands created an explosion which blasted them both backwards.

 

And the location of where they fell is relevant. As we see, Sidious falls on the side of the "chair" where there is a rail to hold on to. Yoda happens to fall on the side where there is a long drop with nothing to grab.

[Melly]

That is cut content. It was never included in the game. Therefore, it is not canon.

 

I don't know if you can really say that. In the New Essential Guide to Droids they say that HK-47 and the HK-50's destroyed GO-TO on Malachor V allowing Remote to reactive (or rather deactive) the MSG. And that never appeared in game, but is now considered canon.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I would rather not be drawn into this discussion again, but I need to point out some things. So Revan's apparent attack on the Rakata didn't kill them instantly, that's what you're saying.

That was an attack from a Force Storm actually and this power is much more devastating then normal Lightning. See the image of Sidious's attack as a reference.

 

That is cut content. It was never included in the game. Therefore, it is not canon.

I don't really care.

 

Yoda was not semi-successful and he did not fall apart- he was successful.

 

The reason he lost his lightsaber was not because Sidious' lightning was so powerful, it was because he was taken by surprise.

 

Yoda successfully blocked Sidious' lightning. He first attempted to absorb it, but that was unssuccessful, so he decided to shoot it back at Sidious. The contact between the lightning and Sidious' hands created an explosion which blasted them both backwards.

 

And the location of where they fell is relevant. As we see, Sidious falls on the side of the "chair" where there is a rail to hold on to. Yoda happens to fall on the side where there is a long drop with nothing to grab.

Look Buddy!

 

Yoda is not an immature Jedi who will always be surprised by Sidious moves. He was holding his Light Saber firmly in his hand and Sidious Lightning struck with such a strong intensity that it blew Yoda's Light Saber out of his hand. And Yoda was semi-successful in blocking Sidious Lightning because his defence resulted in a blast and he fell apart. But this was not the case in Dooku's fight, in which Yoda successfully blocked Dooku's Lightning without any difficulty.

 

And I have said before that his place of fall is irrelevant.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Can a Mod close this thread please, It's becoming a Spam fest.

 

Maybe it's not, but I've caught a lot of spam, like the post above, the last part of it.... who cares about Yoda, this is between Revan and Nihilus

[The Architect]

Yes, and that's because you were being unduly harsh, which you admitted. And I wondered why you were being unduly harsh, so it inspired me to write my sig. Not directed to you however, it's just an inspired comment.

 

That makes sense.

 

But you're not getting the point of argument here. Yes, Visas said all the jedi there only heard him speak, and they died. But what's being questioned here is how much focused Nihilus has to be when he drains the hell out of everything. He can speak and kill, but he may have to be focused while doing so. I just wanna point out that there's no evidence whatsoever that points to a definitive conclusion.

 

What Jediphile said. It's so much easier just to type that.

 

Why, the two sentences can't co-exist logically? Why "what the hell"? Even if Anakin was really the Sithari, sure others can be speculated to FIT IN with the definition of it. I was merely suggesting a possibility, for the sake of open discussion. You didn't really have to get all heated and WTH me. That's just uncalled for.

 

But you said that you know Anakin is the Sith'ari. So if you know that Anakin is the Sith'ari, then why are you speculating that Revan could be the Sith'ari? This doesn't make any sense, unless their can be more than two Sith'ari's.

 

That is where my what the hell came from. And I wasn't getting heated, it was more of a calm, confused, mockery what the hell, not an angry, negative, leave me alone what the hell.

 

Other than Anakin, Revan and Darth Bane are speculated to be the sithari. Why, because they all seem to fit in with the definition of the sith'ari to a certain extent. For details you can look at some discussions in the internet or wookiepedia.

 

Nah. To be honest, I don't really care. I just wanted to know why you said that you know Anakin is the Sith'ari, but also speculated that Revan could be too. As you've said, it was just bad wording.

 

It's futile to go on arguing on things that beget different outcomes based on various assumptions. Like I said, better case closed.

 

About the Sith'ari thing, and how powerful Revan is? Yes. About who would win in a fight between Revan and Nihilus? No. I don't see how Revan could beat Nihilus.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Well, it's obvious that you won't listen to anything I say, so we might as well forget it. And if you wish to continue posting in this thread, I suggest that the conversation go back to the real topic.