NASA announces plans for lunar base by 2020

[Ray Jones]

I don't take anything personal, windu6, and I'm not overreacting by any means.

 

I simply asked you if you have any experience with space stations, because you "behave" like you have. Else I couldn't explain why you for instance criticise the NASA for not being on time with the ISS.

 

It seemed you have all the knowledge needed to avoid for instance delays because of bad weather or technical problems. So, I just wanted you to think about what you say for a second, because it appears to be somewhat unfair against the people who dedicate their lifes and time to the space projects we run.

 

And compared to having *no* space station at all, having the ISS up there seems to be pretty much more .. like having a space station and making a step towards "galactical exploration", or do you think otherwise?

[mur'phon]

Ray Jones

You sir are the most opptimistic person I know of, and I hope reality isn't going to affect you that bad

[tk102]

@Ray Jones, windu6, mur'phon: Cool the flames guys.

 

I don't want to have to lock my own thread.

[mur'phon]

I was just joking, not intending to offend anyone.

[HerbieZ]

70s or now, the steps to get "behind" the moon would be no different. And of course, it would be cool if we'd already a base on the moon. But back then we had like a ton of wars going on, and the world in general was not "united" enough to have a common space thinger like we have now with the ISS. Also, again, all this is already "getting ready for galactic exploration", or do you seriously think it would be anyhow reasonable to aim at pluto or farther, with our first space ship before we've been even flying once around the moon? And we are "colonising" the solar system already. Earth, and Earth's orbit, remember?

 

The advantage of now is, our technology is smaller, leightweighted, needs less energy, is more "intelligent" and less expensive (although pretty expensive compared to "earthly" tech). And still, for the task of "manned space exploration", it's not developed enough.

 

And I don't forsee a war on the moon, since we're not going up there nationwise (like it was in the 70s), but as men/women from earth.

 

It's like that age old argument. Most people say we should'nt explore space until we have sorted out the problems on this earth. I disagree. I think the answer to our problems are out there.

[Ray Jones]

Ray Jones

You sir are the most opptimistic person I know of, and I hope reality isn't going to affect you that bad

You should be more specific, eh. I don't think I showed much optimism? ;~~ So what do you mean?

 

It's like that age old argument. Most people say we should'nt explore space until we have sorted out the problems on this earth. I disagree. I think the answer to our problems are out there.

That isn't my argument at all. And I don't think I said somewhere "We should sort out our problems first."

Quite the opposite is the fact. I say we should, or even *must*, explore space. I was merely pointing out that we cannot seriously aming at going to pluto, for instance, if we are not even able to have a "stable route" established to moon. It also appears to be rather utopistic to try to establish a base on Mars before we have one on the moon. =]

[mur'phon]

Well to me thinking there wil be no war on the moon is very opptimistic. You say that because we are not going up there nation wise, there will be no fighting. What is likely to happen is that while the west (europe, usa and russia) may go up there "united", China have their own space program, and sooner or later are probably going to get to the moon as well. As for the "united" west, trying to have a bunch of countries agree to everything that is going to happen, is going to at least crack up the "united" west. While the tennsion betwen the countries isnt likely to start a war as long as the base(s) are being used for science purposes only, it is likely to cause conflict as soon as something valuable is found there (on earth Nigeria and Iraq are good examples) .

 

Of course I hope you are right, I just dont think the moon are going to be a peacefull place for much longer.

[Totenkopf]

Mur'phon, I think you pretty well nail it. I think human beings will be too fractious to unite to that degree till the world has been ravaged by a horrific war and some kind of world government rises from those ashes. In the meantime, it will be nations who initially cooperate with one another to try to defray costs. Any such alliance will last only as long as till one or several of the parties decides to make a bid for control. I'd say that given the weight of human history to date (5000+ years of "civilization"), we're merely more technically advanced than our predecessors, not wiser. Any conflict on earth will quickly spread to the "heavens".

[Ray Jones]

Oh. That optimism. You really call me "the most optimistic person you know of", because of that? Hm.

 

I said nowhere there will be no war. I just said "I don't forsee one on the moon."

 

See, I'd say, for the next century the least, the will be enough space on the moon for everyone up there to keep out of sight to any neighbour possible. And even if China is ever going to the moon, who says there will be a war? Who says they won't join us, "in the wide, united west" Your reasoning for a war is somewhat flawed and makes no sense at all. I'd also say that it's pretty "optimistic" to "know" there will be a war on the moon. Even in case of possible resources on the moon, which will be most likely take for the moon base or colony, anyways.

 

With the currently to us available space technology we cannot even go anywhere near the moon. I mean I'm not talking about probes. I talk about a manned space ship, with a landing craft, that can savely land and return to the ship. The technology we have simply cannot do that. And we also are too "advanced" to revive/rebuild the moon flying thingers from the 60-70s.

 

Even with the needed technology, how many people will be up there? 3? 4? 6? Let's say we have a base, how many? 10 people? So we have like 10 nations who have ONE base and 10 people, what will they do to take over the moon? 1 kills the other 9? And then what? One man savagely keeps enemy crafts from landing? What if they drop a bomb and destroy the whole base? What then? Make another alliance for another base? Totally useless to start a war at this point.

 

And seriously, why a war *on* the moon, if all the enemy needs to do is stop the space ship from leaving earth or its orbit, by simply shooting at it from earth. That, and until we have reliable tech to bring men and supply for a whole war to the moon, we have another couple of hundred years to become "wiser". Also, I don't think any participating nation/party/whoever has the resources for a war on the moon an and war on earth at the same time, but that would be unevitably happen in case someone tries to take over the moon. Even if it's 2 versus 2 or whatever combination, at this point it's still pretty dumb to start a war and "lose" resources.

 

When is the right time for a war "up there"? Tja. As long as we cannot use the moon as reliable base for space trips od any kind, and as long as we don't have the technology to settle down on other planets (and by settle down I don't talk about a simple glass-covered tent-like base, but about terraforming and building cities) I don't see why anyone should try to boot out their "teammates" to reach all this on their own, without sharing the needed resources and whatnot. THAT would be totally doomed to fail blatantly.

 

Finally, then, when we are able to perform terraforming and can colonise other worlds and have super space tech, then we can argue whether a war makes sense or not. But seriously, who would be stupid enough to try to get an exclusive hold of the moon rather than of unexplored and new territories in space? I mean, by then noone should need the moon as a base for trips into space anymore. Moreover, I even doubt that there will be any interest left for near earth planets, because there we already learned about terraforming and colonising. And by then we're up to leave the solar system for longer trips, and what is the moon for now should be Pluto then. At this point we can talk about war within the solar system. When we have fully colonised at least 1 other planet, with maybe multiple "alien nations" and established governments, there is reason for war. Planetary, interplanetary and crossplanetary. But on the moon, over the moon, then? Hm. Very questionable.

 

So, I stand by my realistic statement: I don't forsee a war on the moon.

[SilentScope001]

And even if China is ever going to the moon, who says there will be a war? Who says they won't join us, "in the wide, united west"

 

Realism my friend. (EDIT: Realism is a political theory which states that all nations...well, hate each other, and want to advance their own self-interest, to the deteriment of others.)

 

USA wants to be the only superpower. If China grows to become an economic or military superpower, then it would be bad. Why? The USA do not want to share. To share would be sucidice. It would be China who would contorl the world, and then they can do what they want...which would be bad for the US. (To take an extereme example, suppose the USA is very weak and China is very strong. You may be okay with that, until the Chinese Prime Minister get replaced with someone who claims that the USA has WMDs and must be invaded! Can USA do anything? Nope. So China marches into USA to disarm the USA of the WMDs...) Power is a zero-sum game. The only way to gain power is to take it from someone else.

 

So China and the USA will have tensions. Will it boil over to war? Maybe...

 

And seriously, why a war *on* the moon, if all the enemy needs to do is stop the space ship from leaving earth or its orbit, by simply shooting at it from earth. That, and until we have reliable tech to bring men and supply for a whole war to the moon, we have another couple of hundred years to become "wiser". Also, I don't think any participating nation/party/whoever has the resources for a war on the moon an and war on earth at the same time, but that would be unevitably happen in case someone tries to take over the moon. Even if it's 2 versus 2 or whatever combination, at this point it's still pretty dumb to start a war and "lose" resources.

 

When is the right time for a war "up there"? Tja. As long as we cannot use the moon as reliable base for space trips od any kind, and as long as we don't have the technology to settle down on other planets (and by settle down I don't talk about a simple glass-covered tent-like base, but about terraforming and building cities) I don't see why anyone should try to boot out their "teammates" to reach all this on their own, without sharing the needed resources and whatnot. THAT would be totally doomed to fail blatantly.

 

Ahem? You assume people would "work together"? That if one teammate get booted out, the project may fail. Maybe. Or maybe not.

 

And war...is a hunger. There is no need for rationalization, no need for reason. It happens...because it happens. It would be great for people to work together...but what if you don't trust each other? USA don't trust China. China don't trust USA. The Prisoner's delimma reassert itself. If the USA and China trust each other, then everyone would be happy. But they don't trust each other, and their paranoia may lead to war.

===

Both of you also forget a possible third superpower: Russia. They may become an energy superpower, and they too may compete with USA (while currently being allied with China ATM).

[Darth InSidious]

^Become?

 

They are already in the final stages of solidifying their stranglehold on Europe.

 

Sorry, what was this about the Cold War being over?

[Windu Chi]

You know it is funny y'all are arguing about a war on the moon.

Quite fascinating by the way.

But a war on the moon,

Why the hell will anybody fight over that cold dead rock?

I foresee a war over control of the solar system.

 

But with all the hard fought centuries to establish our present society, there will be wars anywhere we go in the Milky Way; there maybe a war over control of the Milky Way already in progress, we are probably missing it.

 

Whenever the hell our society explore the Milky Way galaxy the wars will follow us in that adventurous exploration.

[Jae Onasi]

We now return you to our regularly scheduled program, A Lunar Base by 2020.

[Ray Jones]

Greatness!!! ;D