Server and mod commentary

[Sushi_CW]

I'm in favor of that. Considering that it gives you a "buy and forget" immunity to every force power, it should be more expensive than 4 points a level. I say make it 8 a level.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Absorb doesn't grant complete immunity though. I've been Lightninged to death while having it at Lv. 3, so it has some kind of limit. I just don't know the limit.

[Maxstate]

As I recall:

You're vulnerable at low DP, while jumping and if you get caught in the back with a force power.

[Sushi_CW]

I think right now it's only low DP, isn't it? I know I've tried L3 pull on people running and jumping away from me and seen it get absorbed.

[razorace]

It depends on their level of skills in the associated powers, but they will be vulnerable if they're in the Heavy Slowbounce range in MP.

[JRHockney*]

It depends on their level of skills in the associated powers, but they will be vulnerable if they're in the Heavy Slowbounce range in MP.

 

If you talkng about with saber as well, thats yet another reason not to use the disarm conversion!

 

Anyways, after fighting Jawa bond last night and watching him become almost unbeatable with his Jump 3/flamethrower combo with all force power protection against jedi, I'm starting to think we should come up with more counter powers or situations against gunners or anyone with falmethrower. Any ideas?

[Lathain Valtiel]

...How did he combo flamethrower and Jump 3? It should miss in the middle of it unless there's something you're not telling us.

 

Regardless, Absorb should drain some FP, frankly.

[JRHockney*]

...How did he combo flamethrower and Jump 3? It should miss in the middle of it unless there's something you're not telling us.

 

Regardless, Absorb should drain some FP, frankly.

 

Not sure. He must have binded it or something. Any ideas razor?

[UDM]

If there are no crossed classes, all we need to do is just lightning those flaming bastards to death

[razorace]

Not sure. He must have binded it or something. Any ideas razor?

It's not hard to do, just use the flamethrower item and jump at the same time.

[Lathain Valtiel]

I meant wouldn't it start missing as you got higher?

[Doctor Shaft]

...How did he combo flamethrower and Jump 3? It should miss in the middle of it unless there's something you're not telling us.

 

Regardless, Absorb should drain some FP, frankly.

 

 

Agreed on this point. Absorb is too much of a free pass still.

 

 

I take back what I said earlier about point values. Turns out, I've been playing with the old point values from Version P, when everyone else is playing with r. So... I was playing with twice the score costs. No wonder I thought it was too hefty. The current scoring system seems just fine.

 

 

 

Still, we definitely need a Force System overhaul. Or at least I think we do. We need to solidify how Push and Pull will work. In my opinion, everything is still too "two-demensional". We have a Mishap Bar and a Dodge Point Bar that seem to have lots of involvement in a Force-Sensitive saber battle, but no relevance (except when blocking lightning) in any Force Dueling.

 

Maybe we should change that?

 

Also, Force Powers needed. But I've been whining about that and doing nothing for a while now.

[UDM]

I think at level 3, the proportion of FP loss should be smaller but with less of a difference than that of level 2, as compared to level 2 with level 1

 

For example, let's say enemy uses force lightning. At level 3, force absorb only eats up 6FP per second. At level 2, force absorb eats up 10FP per second. At level 1, force absorb eats up 16FP. Without force absorb, you suffer 22 points of damage per second.

 

Notice the difference per level?

 

Level 1 difference compared to level 0: 8 points

Level 2 difference compared to level 1: 6 points

Level 3 with level 2: 4 points

 

As such, it doesn't encourage players to ALWAYS shoot for Force Absorb level 3. However, it still does, in some ways, there are still incentives to shift up to Force Absorb level 3 if you want the ultimate protection. There's no perfection in this world, but if you want the closest to it, you gotta pay a higher price or accept the fact that there are no other alternatives

[JRHockney*]

Its a miracle!!! The forums work!!

 

Agreed on this point. Absorb is too much of a free pass still.

 

Yes it is and something needs to be done about it. Since deflect doesnt really work at the moment (must be fixed or changed), jedis end up with virtually no effective offense except for normal slashing and speed, both of which are easy to predict after a few uses. I still prefer the MB2 why of doing it by by making gunners walk to avoid force powers (and make an easy why to catch up when they run away), but its clear that not everyone will like that and we probably should do it differently anyways for originality sake. How about making it so that your protection is range based with absorb, level 3 being like almost point blank range for usage?

[Doctor Shaft]

Well, I don't think we should adopt any "crouch or walk to avoid Force Powers" rules. I always hated that. MB2 had a good system in terms of balance, but I don't find it very fun in regards to the walking thing (and I mean no insult there).

 

In other words, I don't like watching an opponent laugh off my Force Push because they're walking. Does the Jedi get to laugh off guns because he's walking? Not really.

 

On that note, I'm liking this idea that Absorb become more of a "Drain your FP for protection" system. Remember, the original Absorb wasn't all that great because even though you were immune to Force Powers, getting hit by something would still stun you. So a gunner with absorb, while he wasn't getting pushed, was still pausing at some point. In OJP, even that brief pause is gone, which is fine. It's just completely disallowed the ability to catch up to someone.

 

As it stands, we have the "Can't counter Force Powers from Behind" rule. But Absorb, for a mere 8 point investment, cancels most of that handicap out. So we need a definite change in that area.

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And on that same note, there's a few other changes that I think need to be considered for serious modification.

 

 

1.) Jetpacks

 

As of version r, I'm a bit displeased with the Jetpack. Here's what I think the problem with it is. It's not the amount of points it costs. It's not the availability. It's the mobility. As of right now, the Jetpack allows too much movement. Changing the cost of it will never change this.

 

I've never been a guy to shirk the ability to fly, but there are certain limitations to the JO/JA game engine in terms of the fighting animations that makes flying too powerful. Against other guns, the jetpacks is no big deal. Just point and shoot. No problem. But against lightsabers, flying becomes too difficult to counter. It's not so much that the jetpack moves too fast, or flies too high, as much as it is that the lightsaber animation are simply not designed for "chasing" people. It's good for dueling. It's average at ground combat against an evasive opponent. It's absolutely horrid at anything involving a character going verticle.

 

Note that a common strategy to avoid getting chopped in half when defensive measures are gone is to bunny hop around. Bunny hopping will always be a good defense against a great many things in games, but when using a gun, bunny hopping is usually a last ditch effort to save some seconds of life. Against a lightsaber, and with Force Absorb, it's much more effective. Add in a jetpack, and you've got a nightmare of "chase the bunny hopper with your really heavy wiffle bat."

 

There is no "quick stab" animation for the saber. No instant hit swing. A gun laser pops right out. A lightsaber always takes a half second or so to get the full swing, and a brief delay to "point" or select the swing you want. Nothing we do will change this.

 

In lieu of all this, the jetpack needs to be seriously toned down. I don't like the fact that you can levitate around often with it. Fuel regeneration is too high. In addition, it seems to lack that "movie" feel to it. Jango Fett and Boba Fett were not known for cruising around in the air multiple times, for many seconds at a time.

 

 

I think the jetpack should have the ability to let opponents fly very high, away from Jedi and other opponents. It should be superior, in some aspects, to Force Jump. Forget trying to match height potential there. But right now, Jetpacks can be used more frequently than Force Jump, and for less "cost". In addition, it takes you to higher places. There's practically no need for Force Jump in that case, and when combined, you have the ultimate lightsaber deterrent. Remember... lightsabers suck at chasing flying opponents. There's just no decent swing animation to hit that kind of stuff. None.

 

I think the jetpack should be something that gives gunners 1-3 seconds of flight potential. When they use that jetpack, they better have a real destination in mind, and a plan of action. As it stands, they mostly use it as a "well, I charged in with my gun and he's getting too close, so I'll fly around a little." It should give a quick boost, but not allow too much mobility, or change of direction. As it stands now, it seems like you can move around freely, with out much "physics." Correct me if I'm wrong in that regard, I haven't used the jetpack too much.

 

So I'm not calling for its removal. I'm not calling for a cost increase. I am asking that it's fuel reserve be drastically reduced, and it's usage be cut down.

 

 

In Promod, the jetpack fuel regenerated quickly. BUT, that jetpack had less mobility and "levitation" potential than OJP's jetpack. That was the deciding factor. You couldn't just fly. If you wanted to go high, you usually need to jump up and go straight up. You could not go foward, then decide to fly high, go around in a circle, and maybe shoot down. Force powers also affected it. Still, Promod's jetpack wasn't perfect either, and had it's annoying quirks too. OJP doesn't need to rip the jetpack apart. Just limit the mobility aspect. Or, if we like how it moves, cut that jetpack fuel WAYYY down. Reduce it to short bursts for emergency evacuation. Not constant movement.

 

 

2.) Mishap Bar

 

I feel the Mishap Bar is still seriously underepresented and underused. I like it. I like the idea behind it. But it doesn't factor into any aspect of my gameplay. Even in duels, I hardly pay attention to my mishap bar, even when fighting a defensive opponent that has gotten good at raising an opponents mishap. Even in one fight, my mishap was at 90% for a good portion of the fight. I was disarmed only once. And that was... random. That disarm didn't really affect me. I recalled the saber, had plenty of DP left, and just restarted. My FP was way down... but so was his. We recovered and started anew. I eventually switched to a faster stance and rushed down for a lucky win. All the work he had put into blocking my shots didn't really pay off.

 

We should seriously entertain just raising the mishap threshold. Let's get more consequences in there. Battles right now are fast. DP costs are just right, in my opinion, and need no serious change. But the Mishap meter is something we should consider playing around with for a bit. Perhaps, if there is to be any difference in styles, the Mishap Meter is where it's at. Allowing for better opportunities to get slow bounces, disarms, and the like.

 

I know it would be annoying if people were disarmed every five seconds. But if someone is able to block effectively and raise mishap, why not reward them? Also, there's rarely an opportunity to see mishap go high enough to allow for a quick chance to use the Force and blow the opponent back.

 

 

3.) OJP system and Gunners

 

One thing that's come to my attention while playing is how gunners fit into the OJP world. I like the new guns. I like the gun speeds. I love rockets. I like jetpacks. I like flamethrowers, and all the rest. The thing I don't like, however, is how Gunners fit into the OJP "Physics".

 

Before, a Jedi had incredible abilities via OJP's system. They could "dodge" virtually anything. They could meditate to quickly regain Force ability. Lighting would stun and knockdown opponents. The list goes on. But everything was tied down, or held in check, by the FP/DP/MP system. If you used your Force too much, it even slowed you down. You became ineffective and had to take a brief cooldown. Without DP, your saber dueling was no long much use. You coudln't even block guns. Again, while powerful, the Jedi had to "cooldown" for a moment. With MP, a Jedi could potentially be disarmed, or some other foul accident. Lately, that MP hasn't seen much use, but when it does happen, it's not pleasant. This prevented a Jedi from swinging too much, or moving indiscriminately.

 

Gunners currently don't have any of that going on for them. Their reliance on the DP/FP/MP system is minimal at best, and almost always beneficial to them, in fact.

 

FP? Not necessary. In fact, it just helps curb their bunny hopping. If they run out, the jetpack is available. Since they aren't using a lightsaber, FP's absence isn't sorely missed, and usually is quickly regenerated.

 

MP? Not a factor.

 

DP? Just ensures that a Jedi, when he gets a hit in, isn't going to necessarily win. With enough DP, we have situations where that one or two hits the Jedi lands don't kill. Those one or two hits may be the only ones a Jedi typically lands. In addition, having DP isn't critical. The gunner keeps distance and shoots people. It is not dependent on having enough DP to consider going in for something.

 

 

I'll grant that a gunner can't really be entirely tied down to this system, but I propose that we consider what's going on make some changes. Perhaps DP costs should be doubled when not having a lightsaber out to defend against lightsaber swings? Perhaps there should be some sort of Mishap occurence for missed shots, running while shooting, or having shots deflected back?

 

Either way, a gunner not being tied down by the three tier system creates a certain advantage. Maybe it's not as "big" as I'd like to think, and perhaps if the jetpack was toned down, none this would really matter. But I thought it was worth considering for a bit.

[Sushi_CW]

Well said.

 

As far as the mishap bar goes in saber combat, I agree that it is currently a bit random. I find it works best for me to ignore it almost completely, and focus simply on DP, parrying, and combos.

 

There's been talk of adding a recoil/accuracy system for guns. That could add a mishap-factor for gun use. If mishap is supposed to be balance, it makes sense that firing a gun will increase your mishap.

 

I think we should modify gunning so that normal shots from blasters, pistols, etc. do more damage, but spamming the shots results in recoil that increases MP and decreases accuracy. If MP gets too high, the gunner would be vulnerable to force. Crouching/standing would keep mishap from increasing too much, shooting while in the air would increase it by a lot. The type of weapon being fired would also make a big difference. A pistol wouldn't take away too much balance, but a rocket would probably unbalance you enough so that after each shot, your mishap is high enough that you're vulnerable to force for a second or two.

[JRHockney*]

On that note, I'm liking this idea that Absorb become more of a "Drain your FP for protection" system. Remember, the original Absorb wasn't all that great because even though you were immune to Force Powers, getting hit by something would still stun you. So a gunner with absorb, while he wasn't getting pushed, was still pausing at some point. In OJP, even that brief pause is gone, which is fine. It's just completely disallowed the ability to catch up to someone.

 

Yeah I forgot about that brief pause. We should probably have that back in some way since gunners can run away too easily from normal jedi. I'm not sure if that "drain your fp for protection" idea is really enough though since gunners can just block it for a few FP cost and then burninate you like they do now in hardly enough time to drain any more of their FP.

 

As it stands, we have the "Can't counter Force Powers from Behind" rule. But Absorb, for a mere 8 point investment, cancels most of that handicap out. So we need a definite change in that area.

 

If thats true, then yeah we probably should.

 

As of version r, I'm a bit displeased with the Jetpack. Here's what I think the problem with it is. It's not the amount of points it costs. It's not the availability. It's the mobility. As of right now, the Jetpack allows too much movement. Changing the cost of it will never change this.

 

Yeah I think we have plans on nerfing its abilities a bit in the next one.

 

I feel the Mishap Bar is still seriously underepresented and underused. I like it. I like the idea behind it. But it doesn't factor into any aspect of my gameplay. Even in duels, I hardly pay attention to my mishap bar, even when fighting a defensive opponent that has gotten good at raising an opponents mishap. Even in one fight, my mishap was at 90% for a good portion of the fight. I was disarmed only once. And that was... random. That disarm didn't really affect me. I recalled the saber, had plenty of DP left, and just restarted. My FP was way down... but so was his. We recovered and started anew. I eventually switched to a faster stance and rushed down for a lucky win. All the work he had put into blocking my shots didn't really pay off.

 

Um, actually I've found that it does have quite an effect on the outcome of a fight especially when you start with lower DP. I've even noticed a trend towards defense lately and they are pretty successful at doing damage. A knockdown from a mishap bar maxout can litterally cost you a fight. We've also changed it so that it only goes halfway down after maxout and that seem s to have helped. The disarm I agree doesnt happen that often and is not even that big of a deal. Razor's planning on increasing the range at which heavyslowbounces happen in the mishap bar and I think will also increase the amount of time it will take to get back you saber for disarm conversions on the heavybounce (I'm also pushing for force vulnerability too in that disarm too since its hard to do).

 

I'll grant that a gunner can't really be entirely tied down to this system, but I propose that we consider what's going on make some changes. Perhaps DP costs should be doubled when not having a lightsaber out to defend against lightsaber swings? Perhaps there should be some sort of Mishap occurence for missed shots, running while shooting, or having shots deflected back?

 

I would probably agree with increasing the lightsaber damage to a gunner. He should only be able to dodge once or maybe twice at full DP. At the moment, he can dodge at least twice at lower DP.

 

About those mishap ideas, I dont see how missed shots causing mishap increase makes in logical sense (since its more of a balance bar), but running while shooting and getting hit with deflected shots (once we fix deflect) makes a little more sense.

 

The question is, what should the effects of high mishap be for gunners? I like some of Sushi's ideas here. The normal mishap maxout doesnt really make a whole lot of sense for a gunner aside from maybe the stumble (i.e. he wouldnt just drop his gun or get knock on his a**). Maybe force vulnerability and slower movement should be the effects and not shooting or walking and shooting would allow the mishap bar to go down? This would have to be especially true with flamethrower. Also agree with Sushi that the DP cost to block even the lower guns should be higher if these ideas are done.

 

Overall, pure jedi are getting almost completely owned by high point gunners. I saw 3 pure jedi (two of which were vets) lose a team death match to two gunners buy a score of like 20 to 10! There's something wrong there, and worth alot more investigation. Lathain, Dr shaft and Max (and anyone I'm missing) have shown alot of the reasons why this is. I don't buy any excuse that its these pure jedis chosen setup that that causes them to lose and that's fair. The very idea that pure jedi can get completely owned by hybrid gunners of practically any skill level is about as unmovierealistic as you can get. While I'm glad we've been striving for more balance, this is an embarressment for what use to be a more jedi oriented mod.

[Doctor Shaft]

Well said.

 

As far as the mishap bar goes in saber combat, I agree that it is currently a bit random. I find it works best for me to ignore it almost completely, and focus simply on DP, parrying, and combos.

 

There's been talk of adding a recoil/accuracy system for guns. That could add a mishap-factor for gun use. If mishap is supposed to be balance, it makes sense that firing a gun will increase your mishap.

 

I think we should modify gunning so that normal shots from blasters, pistols, etc. do more damage, but spamming the shots results in recoil that increases MP and decreases accuracy. If MP gets too high, the gunner would be vulnerable to force. Crouching/standing would keep mishap from increasing too much, shooting while in the air would increase it by a lot. The type of weapon being fired would also make a big difference. A pistol wouldn't take away too much balance, but a rocket would probably unbalance you enough so that after each shot, your mishap is high enough that you're vulnerable to force for a second or two.

 

Hm, an interesting idea. If the gunner stays focused, their vunerability is low to the Force, and their shots are well aimed. If they try to do all of that AND fly away, AND aim, then they are seriously vulnerable. If they want to attack from the air, it may require a variety of weapons, like pistols, instead of just investing in a rocket launcher.

 

Could be a good idea.

 

I'd envision the Mishap bar as a "balance" meter as well. It would determine what can be done, and provide a certain level of risk. If you swing your saber too predictably during an offensive, you build up mishap and find yourself disarmed. If you shoot your gun indiscriminately, while running too and fro, you find yourself disadvantaged. In each situation, you can still perform the action, but not without consequence.

 

But programming that... yeah, I have no ability to do that, and couldn't tell how difficult that would be to implement.

[Maxstate]

*starts applauding Sushi, Shaft and Hocks*

 

Well said guys, I'll leave my teen angst filled post out of this since you guys can clearly do it on a much more mature scale

 

Post scriptum:

Funny though that most of these troubles could've been solved by adding some of the ideas I mentioned like 2 months ago. Take gunners for example, instead of upping mishap, they could've gotten reloads or overheating guns in the form of the mishap bar.

 

The jetpack is another example, look up my posts on it and you'll see that I suggested it to be a burst jetpack like intended by Lucas. 15 times 3 second bursts is what boba's was, as I recall.

 

Meh, you borked it, you fix it

[madcatmach2]

sweat the forums are working again well in my opinion the mishap meter works fine and dose have an effect in a saber battle for instance iv landed the instant death saber brake move when they had a high mishap meater a couple of times

 

well at home i have a whole thing saved about my ideas about jetpack and flame thrower ill post it later when im home

 

also on the topic of the whole pure gunners/jedi maby we could take a note from the origional jedi knight game for example if ur a pure gunner u have to have some gunner skill so it opens up some of the other guns that an experenced marksman would know how to use like the syper rifle and for the jedi we can do what they did in jedi knight

 

in jedi knight if u put atleast 1 point in every side of the force u were playing as good/evil it would give u a specil powerfull power if u were good it gave u force protect which in this was much more powerfull and worked as a portabull shield makeing u temperary imune to all except lightsaber or my favoret if u were evil u got the power Deadly Sight which was when it was on all the enamys would levitate in the air hepless and were being dissoloved alive for just looking at them so a mik of choke and lighting thru sight?

 

point being it could be an awsome power for fleeing gunners thru running or jetpacking away

[madcatmach2]

heres what i typed a few days ago after bing on the server with a few people

 

Anyways, after fighting Jawa bond last night and watching him become almost unbeatable with his Jump 3/flamethrower combo with all force power protection against jedi, I'm starting to think we should come up with more counter powers or situations against gunners or anyone with falmethrower. Any ideas?

 

I compleatele agree after playing with u guys for a while we lurned that flame was an unblockabul lightning that didnt hinder ur saber fighting at all since it doesn't drain force so there needs to be a way to counter it ur atleast bring back heal so the jedi can heal himself after hes been flamed but still that would drain his force leaving him slowed while the oponit is free to drain flamethower without any penalty in short people are not buying lighting and just buying flamethrower and saveing points

 

and there really needs to be a penalty on it like as u use it it starts to hurt u cus after all you are igniteing a very flamibull substance on ur arm the heat could hurt you idk set your clowthing on fire and maby if they overuse it to much the liquids explode insted of igniteing severly hurting you, say the flame fallowed the liquid inside the fule canister igniteing it all at once and explodeing. you well thats my thauts

[Lathain Valtiel]

Shaft is utterly correct on how the Jetpack should be implemented. Listen to that man. Take his words as gospel, because that is how it should be done.

 

Low duration, fast regeneration.

[JRHockney*]

Shaft is utterly correct on how the Jetpack should be implemented. Listen to that man. Take his words as gospel, because that is how it should be done.

 

Low duration, fast regeneration.

 

Agreed, but I'm a bit more interested in what you think about the force vulnerability for gunner ideas above that involve the mishap/balance meter since you primarily a gunner. Do these ideas seem balanced enough?

[Lathain Valtiel]

I'd have to see it implemented, but I don't think I like it if it results in slower footspeed or shots not going where you aim. It will be annoying as sin to handle when using a rapid-fire gun, especially considering that all of the rapid-fire functions do not work against Jedi unless you burn a couple dozen shots on them, if secondary fire Bowcaster is any indication.

 

But force vulnerability is a definite no. The current system will work fine after Absorb is tweaked some. Gunners are already vulnerable to Force without the appropriate powers. Increasing their vulnerability is not a grand idea.

[razorace]

I kind of like the idea of having the gunner's accuracy linked to their MP and then have MP go up for gunner related behavior.