Rap Vs. Rock talent

[cards227]

Best christian rock band at this moment is haste the day.

[Prime]

its easy to make up rhymes takes like a month to make up a good song and anyone can speak.

 

but it takes years to master the guitar like Jimi Hendrix or Van Halen or better. or even drums.

Clearly rapping is more than just "speaking", as I think we can agree no one talks the same as rappers rap. They are different ways of using your voice.

 

And sure, it takes years to become as good as the rockers you mentioned, but it also takes longer than a month for someone to be considered on par with the greatest MCs.

 

If 50 cent ever learns to play a guitar good, or even write good songs, I will puill down my pants and run all around the globe. (Not literally)

Can we please stop using 50 Cent as the stardard to which rap is judged. I beg you.

 

Now, who here can write and perform a rock song in less than 12 hours. No-one probably, it takes time to master instruments.

Using the same logic as some have used, it would take me a couple of hours at most to learn how to play some chords on the guitar and yell heavy metal/punk style into a microphone.

 

There, now I am the best that the genre has to offer.

 

Sounds silly, doesn't it?

 

@Prime - Who are they?

Beastie Boys. They have a ton of "instrument songs", including a full CD if instrumentals.

 

Rap and rock have both suffered a lot in the last 10 years or so creatively;

That is an understatement. I would say Rap has suffered moreso.

 

maybe I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of rock bands that have come out recently that I like and consider really talented. But at least they play. And that's more than rappers manage.

But most bands tend to have a lead singer, who may or may not generally play an instrument, and the rest of the band who tends to only play instruments (apart from providing some backup). In other words, some provide vocals and some that provide the musical accompaniment.

 

How is this much different from a rap group? Rappers provide the vocals and the DJs provide the musical accompaniment.

 

Sure. Learn how to sing. A little harder than shouting to a beat.

Are you saying that a lot of punkers or heavy metal singers can be classified as singing in the traditional sense? Is Brian Johnson of AC/DC not "shouting"? I would argue that both rappers and punkers use inflection and pitch changes to augment the sound of the song. It is a lot more than just "shouting words".

 

Again much like A Tribe Called Quest and De La Sol were I 13 and got MTV for the first time now I wouldn't be introduced to groups like that.

IMO two of the greatest rap groups of all time, and two more examples that all rap isn't about "gats and hos". And I agree that similar groups today have a very hard time getting airplay because they don't portray the mainstream image.

 

IMO its not even close. It takes more talent to master the art of playing an instrument, than to merely "talk" into a microphone

Again, apples to oranges. Playing an instrument is playing an instrument, and vocals are vocals. Lets at least debate related things.

 

and "talk" about killing people and doing drugs.

The rap genre covers a lot more than that, and rap is hardly the only genre that talks about such things. But I agree that most rap that does cover that tends to be poor.

 

As for rap' date=' all you have to do is make sure it rymes and that you can talk real fast.[/quote']And hard rock is just a few chords and yelling.

[Rabish Bini]

@MTV2 - Metallica? Yelling? No. System of a down yell, but Metallica? No. And RATM don't that often either.

 

@Prime - Oh, The Beastie Boys. I actually like them, though i've never seen them, only heard them on the radio.

And hard rock is not a few chords and yelling. Cheap rock is, but not good rock.

And you say that if you learned a few chords in a few hours, that's not enough to write a wghole rock song. Most rock songs go for 5 - 8 minutes. You could do that in a few hours? I don't think so.

[Prime]

And hard rock is not a few chords and yelling. Cheap rock is, but not good rock.

And you say that if you learned a few chords in a few hours, that's not enough to write a wghole rock song. Most rock songs go for 5 - 8 minutes. You could do that in a few hours? I don't think so.

*sigh*

 

That's my point. It is easy to say gloss over and generalize what is involved with making various forms of music. It is easy to say it only requires these components and they are simple to come up with. But that of course doesn't reflect the effort involved in making something good.

 

And that is the sentiment that some have expressed about good rap music. Saying that rap is only coming up with some rhymes and talking is no more true than saying creating a good rock song is as easy as learning a few chords and yelling.

[Arátoeldar]

And country music sucks.

 

I guess then Ray Charles was a no talent piano player. He put out 4 excellent country albums in the early 60's. I also take it that you think that Chet Atkins was a no talent hack. Chet was and still is one of the top five guitar players of all time no matter what style of music. I will admit that I am not a fan of modern country music. Too much of it to me sounds like bad Rock & Roll. Unfortunately ever since MTV came onto the scene music not what the genre is more about the looks since modern recording techniques can cover for some of the lack of talent. Technically the blues is one of the easiest styles to play. However to have the right feel for the music usually takes years to master.

[Rabish Bini]

@Prime - You have a good point, but it is easier to make a good rap song than it is to make a good rock song.

[RedHawke]

I'm a Heavy Metal fan myself but I try not to say I don't like so-and so's music, as you can find something you like in just about every musical genre.

 

One of the first CD's I aquired was Beastie Boys 'Licence to ill' and I have been a fan ever since.

[Prime]

@Prime - You have a good point, but it is easier to make a good rap song than it is to make a good rock song.

Why?

[Mace MacLeod]

I guess then Ray Charles was a no talent piano player. He put out 4 excellent country albums in the early 60's. I also take it that you think that Chet Atkins was a no talent hack. Chet was and still is one of the top five guitar players of all time no matter what style of music. I will admit that I am not a fan of modern country music. Too much of it to me sounds like bad Rock & Roll. Unfortunately ever since MTV came onto the scene music not what the genre is more about the looks since modern recording techniques can cover for some of the lack of talent. Technically the blues is one of the easiest styles to play. However to have the right feel for the music usually takes years to master.

I never said anything about country music musicians, nor did I insult or disparage their level of talent. I said country music sucks, which it does, IMHO. I've always absolutely despised the sound of country music. Except for Stompin' Tom Connors (which I like strictly for the patriotic Canadian angle), Kenny Rogers' The Gambler, and maybe the theme song to The Dukes of Hazzard, I have always hated and will always hate country music just because it sounds like country music. Nothing to do with the level of country music players, which is generally very professional.

 

But most bands tend to have a lead singer, who may or may not generally play an instrument, and the rest of the band who tends to only play instruments (apart from providing some backup). In other words, some provide vocals and some that provide the musical accompaniment.

 

How is this much different from a rap group? Rappers provide the vocals and the DJs provide the musical accompaniment.

Some rap acts feature DJs, not all. Some rock bands have a dedicated lead singer, some have singers who also play instruments. The difference is that all rock bands are primarily composed of members who play instruments, and there are some rap acts whose musical component is a guy sitting in a studio pushing buttons on a drum machine or sequencer. I've been in enough studios to have seen this first-hand.

 

Are you saying that a lot of punkers or heavy metal singers can be classified as singing in the traditional sense? Is Brian Johnson of AC/DC not "shouting"? I would argue that both rappers and punkers use inflection and pitch changes to augment the sound of the song. It is a lot more than just "shouting words".

Actually, Brian Johnson does sing, or at least he used to before his vocal cords became completely shredded. Listen to Back in Black, then listen to Ballbreaker. It's not a pretty progression. And hey, I'll be the first to admit that a LOT of rock/punk/metal singers can't really sing all that well if at all, but the upper echelon of rock singers really can sing. Using your voice as an intrument is also a skill that can take years to develop. Let's go back to Whitney and Mariah; I said that they can sing better than 99% of all rock vocalists (though this is maybe more like 99.9%). Now, two of the only examples that I can think of off the top of my head who might match W and M are Rob Halford of Judas Priest and Geoff Tate of Queensryche. Here is where you can hear the difference that actual singing makes; both these guys have like 5-octave ranges, can harmonize, use vibrato, change registers seamlessly, etc etc etc. I've never heard any rapper do anything as advanced as that. Amy Lee of Evanescence is another example of what a classically trained choral singer can do. Now, I really wish she'd switch registers more often and lay off the upper register, keening, fire-alarm whole notes that just hang in the air forever during her songs, but still, she's way beyond your average rock singer and light-years beyond the average for rap.

[lukeiamyourdad]

This is a stupid debate...as a debate on "which kind of music is the best one" always is...

 

No one will ever agree. Some rock lovers think that rock requires more skills out of some elitist feeling. Perhaps it became exacerbated by the current trend to follow "counter-culture" as a rejection of all things mainstream - in this case, hip-hop since it happens to be the thing of the hour.

 

I've seldom seen rap lovers spit bile over rock lovers, but the opposite happens quite often. I find it sickening.

 

Now, can anyone which one takes more talent? No. Why? There is no way to mesure the amount of talent required to do rap or rock music.

 

First off, what is talent? Define it and I dare anyone to come up with a universally accepted definition. Now, after you've defined what is talent, find a way to properly measure it. Then try to find conclusions based on your analysis.

What is the problem then? It seems doable. Wrong, it's 100% based on opinion. You cannot find a result that won't be heavily contested and rightfully so.

 

So this debate has to come to an end since there is no way possible to decide a clear winner.

[ChAiNz.2da]

So this debate has to come to an end since there is no way possible to decide a clear winner.

Wrong.

 

LIAYD = win thread

 

Couldn't agree with you more..

 

I've been playing both Spanish classical and metal / grunge guitar for well over 24 years. And trust me, it wasn't a picnic to learn to play... however put me in front of a turntable.. or gawds forbid, a mic... and I'd be lost like a child.

 

I guarantee it would take as long or longer to truly feel as comfortable with the turntable (my voice has no salvation ) as long as it took me to learn playing a guitar.

 

Me personally? Yeah, I prefer rock, but that doesn't mean I have any less respect for rap artists. Hehehe.. in fact way back in the day, there was a movie called Judgement Night... the soundtrack* was one of the best I ever owned.. it was Rock & Rap Artists collaborating together on songs, and man, that was one helluva road trip LP. I still love the songs on it.

 

Faith No More + BooYaa Tribe = Headbang with a beat

 

This is a to each their own style 'debate'.

 

 

*- The movie sucked though .. hehehe

[Henz]

Can we re-start this thread banning anyone who hates on rap or mentions 50 cent?

 

I stand by my opinion that quality rock requires more talent than quality rap though. Rock > Rap musically.

[St. Jimmy]

I'm afraid that I have to go the other way on this. I don't think that Christian Rock has gotten any better. In my opinion, it was in its hey-day in the 80s with bands like Stryper, Bloodgood, Barren Cross, and, my personal favorite, Rage of Angels.

 

I'm gonna have to agree with you there. There is still good Christian rock/metal but it used to be better than what it is now. While you use to have bands like what you metioned, (especially Stryper. Actually, Stryper is still going, got their latest album in fact.) We are getting new Christian rock bands that are decent. Atomic Opera, P.O.D, Pax 217 etc, etc.. Everyone's gonna kill me for this, but there are a few Christian Ska bands that I like as well. The Insyderz, The O.C. Supertones... But there's punk/garage/rock too, Audio Adrenalin (who broke up last year ) Superchic[k], Ace Troubleshooter, Cadet (who are alright), All Star United, Reliant K and other stuff.

Then you've got mainstream bands who sing about whatever but have Christian members. Linkin Park, Good Charlotte, Evanescence, (I think one or more of the guys from the Living End is a Christian.) That genre of rock is definately getting much broader, for better or for worse.

EDIT: Just the other day I found a band called Pyramaze. They sound EXACTLY like Stryper. I actually mistook them for the latter. Check them out.

[Arátoeldar]

I'm afraid that I have to go the other way on this. I don't think that Christian Rock has gotten any better. In my opinion, it was in its hey-day in the 80s with bands like Stryper, Bloodgood, Barren Cross, and, my personal favorite, Rage of Angels.

 

I disagree with you. While the were good Contemporary Christian Bands in the 80's such as Resurrection Band & Petra. There are good bands-artists today such as Phil Keaggy and Kerry Livgren. I like Three Crosses but unfortunately they broke up.

[St. Jimmy]

I disagree with you. While the were good Contemporary Christian Bands in the 80's such as Resurrection Band & Petra.

Wow! Iwas waiting for someone to metion Rez!

[Rabish Bini]

Why?

 

To tell you the truth, I don't know, i've tried making songs for both genres, and rap was always so much easier.

 

@LIAYD - Definition of 'talent'

[lukeiamyourdad]

@LIAYD - Definition of 'talent'

 

 

I believe you do not understand the difference between taking a dictionary definition and using one for a research. It is much more complicated as you must define the parameters within which you'll make your analysis.

 

None of the definitions in your link actually allows me or anyone for that matter, to properly elaborate on the subject.

 

Now the two definitions that are the most relevant to our situation:

 

# endowment: natural abilities or qualities

# a person who possesses unusual innate ability in some field or activity

 

These are the problems if you were to use any of those for your argumentation:

 

-Neither is measurable. It mentions no criteria whatsoever that you can measure.

-In relation to the first criticism, it doesn't tell me how you'll analyse the "degree" of talent. Since it mentions no criteria, you didn't come up with anything with which you can base your analysis.

-The definition gives you a basic idea of what talent is in this case. It would be too simplistic if everything can be built upon dictionary definitions. We'd have no need for philosophers! I don't care about what it is, I care about what it's made of.

 

As an example of how we can disagree on definitions:

 

I can use chopsticks with ease. I consider it a talent. You disagree. Using chopsticks has been common to my culture for centuries making it a cultural trait and not a particular talent. Are you wrong? No and neither am I. We can discuss about it until it's 2010 and we won't see the end of it. That's because we disagree on the criterias that make something a talent.

 

Which makes questions like " Who is more talented?" pointless.

[Rabish Bini]

You got me there.

How about we replace talent with skill. How much skill does rap and rock require? Which requires more skill? My answer, rock.

[lukeiamyourdad]

You got me there.

How about we replace talent with skill. How much skill does rap and rock require? Which requires more skill? My answer, rock.

 

Same thing. This debate has no end. Skill, talent, ability, capability, etc. Replace a word and it'll still be contested.

 

The problem mostly resides within the normative nature of the original question. If the question was : "What are the differences between the skills required to make rap and rock?" , you'd be able to elaborate a decent analysis. It can still be contested, but it will be considered in a valid one. However, since you ask which requires more talent, which is inherently better then the other, you end up taking a normative approach and that has no end and will be contested and refuted easily. You cannot make a decent analysis. It is an opinion and always will remain one.

[MdKnightR]

EDIT: Just the other day I found a band called Pyramaze. They sound EXACTLY like Stryper. I actually mistook them for the latter. Check them out.

 

Post a link! I'd love to hear them.

 

 

 

Hey, did you hear about Evel Knievel suing Kanye West ? Some things that amaze me about the whole ordeal:

 

1. The assumption that Evel Knievel has a reputation worth protecting, and...

 

2. That Kanye West thought that storming the stage spewing B.S. about why his video should have won an award (as if it had to be good because Pamela "Does Rock Stars" Anderson was in it) helped his image at all!

 

Click on the link and read about it.

[St. Jimmy]

Post a link! I'd love to hear them.

 

 

 

Hey, did you hear about Evel Knievel suing Kanye West ?

http://www.pyramaze.com/mp3.html

I've got no idea how they're going to sound over the internet but they sounded pretty damn swell on the cd I found them on.

As for Kanye, I've never really minded his music that much (some of it's quite catchy to be honest) but the man jumping up on stage and making a fool of himself? That's just disgraceful. I'd seen his video clip for 'touch the sky' (It always sounded like he was saying "touch this guy") and I only vaguely realised the connection with Evel Knievel. To me, now that I've heard about the original stunt, it seems that Kanye is almost mocking Evel. Hmm.. Anyway, link away!

[montnoir]

What's with this "classic rap" vs "radio rap" or "gangsta rap" elitist views? Rap is rap, you have to take into consideration the classics as well as what it has evolved into.

 

The same with rock. No one compares early Metallica with modern Metallica. Although there are clear differences; one are angry artistes the others are old alcoholic money-grubbers.

 

Besides Van Halen and Guns N Roses were just as fake as Eminem and G-Unit will ever hope to be.

 

Rap has evolved into radio hip-hop and rock has evolved into Maroon 5. None of them are to be taken any seriously when it comes to music.

[Prime]

Rap has evolved into radio hip-hop and rock has evolved into Maroon 5. None of them are to be taken any seriously when it comes to music.

But what gets regular airplay is by no means all that is out there at this point in time. So to say that rap or rock has evolved into these things isn't totally true, as there is a lot of other stuff out currently that isn't the mainstream.

[Astrotoy7]

 

This debate loops in circles, around a core nucleus of ignorance and intolerance, generalisations and misinformed judgement statements, veiled in the form of opinions.

 

The answer to this question is that "there is no answer," as LIAYD has very effectively elaborated above.

 

"Rap is something you do - hip hop is something you live" - KRS One

 

Hip Hop is more than beats and lyrics. Hip Hop still has deep cultural roots, no matter how commercialised it has become or how many non black rappers there are. You cannot make a statement against rap without disrespecting the heart and soul of what created this music - Racial and demographic segregation, neighborhood and community solidarity, relative and true poverty.

 

As much as people like to malign 50c, his childhood growing up in Queens NY was one that was far from the happy middle class ether so many of us live in. Rap has given him and so many others a chance to overcome the cycle of crime and poverty. For this reason alone, hip hop is very special, and almost always draws on real life experiences. Sure there are embellishments, but what art form doesnt contain hyperbole or poetic license. Shakespeare did it endlessly, is anyone maligning him as a talentless writer because of it. Like all artists, he was catering to a market, especially his patrons, which kept food on his table.

 

Rock, is so far removed from this, its impact has no similar significance. Sure, it has delivered some musicians from bad circumstances, but it is not what created the music. Rock was the by product of a fusion of different musical forms preceding it, blues, jazz, gospel. It only became palatable to a greater audience once it was performed by white musicians. Im sure many of you have seen the clips of newreels from the 50s where rock was described as "devil" or "ni**er music" by closed minded members of the community.

 

Irrespective of musical abilities perceived to be required, making negative comments about rap is being ignorant of the bigger picture, reflecting the continuing importance of this music to a growing section of the global community.

 

peace be with you all

 

mtfbwya

[St. Jimmy]

This debate loops in circles, around a core nucleus of ignorance and intolerance, generalisations and misinformed judgement statements, veiled in the form of opinions.

Woah, ****. Every poster in this thread just got pwned.

While I enjoyed the little rap history lesson, I would've liked a longer Rock speech. I know the history and begginings of both genre/cultures but I still like to read about them and you put them in a way that is really rather interesting.

As for the debate, I really don't have any more to say. You all know my opinion. IMHO, Intruments AND decent vocals > Fast Poetry with a decent rythm.