The True Sith Does Not Exist...

[SilentScope001]

At least, not in physical form. The Sith is not a race...it is merely an idea.

 

This is a speculation that will be proven wrong once K3 comes around, but until then...

 

I speculate that the True Sith do not exist as aliens or as humans, or as any mortal being. I speculate that the True Sith Empire has already been destroyed, but the people are still alive, living holocrons or sith relics, or transformed themselves into Force Ghosts and Sith Spirits. They want to destroy the Republic, and want to take it over, as revenge for their loss in the Great Hyperspace War. All of them are defenders and creators of the idea of the Sith, and they are willing to do whatever it takes to have the Sith win. It is they who are waging the "war of ideology" that Canderous talked about in the cut content.

 

I need some sort of example to prove this...Exar Kun, for instance, fell to the Dark Side by Freedom Nadd and other Sith Lords upon Korriban and Yavin IV. These people corrupted Exar Kun and made him a slave, before Exar Kun killed the ghost of Freedom Nadd.

 

And then...from http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Exar_Kun

 

In a fierce duel between the two fallen Jedi [Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma] on the Tetan world Empress Teta, both amulets that each combatant was wearing suddenly sprang to life. Through the flow of Sith energies unleashed by the combatants, the amulets displayed a vision of a once glorious Sith Empire that had existed a thousand years in the past. A group of ancient Sith spirits, led by Marka Ragnos, declared both Kun and Qel-Droma the leaders of the new Sith Empire. Exar, the more powerful of the two, was appointed the Dark Lord of the Sith, with Ulic as his apprentice, and both were annointed with unknown Sith symbols on their foreheads. With this resolution of the leadership dispute, the Great Sith War had begun.

 

With this scene, I believe that the True Sith strikes from holocrons, and centers of learning, where they can corrupt. Their main goal is to convert people to their cause, and then contorl them. Here, the Sith used Exar Kun and Ulic to bring back the "Golden Era of the Sith". Both Exar Kun and Ulic want to lead such a Golden Era and allied themselves to the Sith spirits, not knowing that they were in fact being contorlled by the Sith spirits, who want to be the power behind the throne. Exar Kun and Ulic would do all the heavy-duty work in restoring the Empire...but the Sith Spirits would get all the glory in running it.

 

Prehaps Revan saw the spirits of the True Sith, and turned away from its will. But, he fell to the Dark Side in the process. Revan still kept his love for the Republic and therefore decided to go on a crusade to get rid of this enemy. By creating a new Sith Empire, one that everyone will love, then people would be totally converted over by Revan's Sith Beliefs that nobody would pay attentio to the Sith leaders of the old. They would worry about the now. If nobody listens to the Sith Empire's holocrons, then they are defeated. Revan's plan failed.

 

If so, three questions can be answered:

 

-Why did Kreia claim that the "machines" of the Sith were not really Sith?

A: Because they were not really Sith. They were Rakatan technology.

 

-Why did Revan leave his allies?

A: They can be converted by the True Sith...or the True Sith may put them in jeoporady, forcing Revan to fall to save them. Or prehaps Revan might fall, and by letting his allies stay in the galaxy, he would ensure that the allies will not fall alongside him.

 

-How can Revan destroy the True Sith?

A: By destroying every single Sith Holocron and Centers of Learning that the Sith Empire has built. It will take awhile.

 

But, I can be wrong. In fact, I proberly am wrong. Tear this theory apart as you will. It just somehow fits with what Kreia is stating, that the Sith is an idea...

[The Architect]

Actually SilentScope001, I really like this idea, it makes sense if you ask me. IMO, it's better than the idea of the 'True Sith' being ancestor remnants of an Ancient Empire who have just been sitting around doing nothing and hiding in the unknown regions for centuries, which is really quite dodgy and difficult to believe IMO.

 

Besides, I'm sure that if the 'True Sith' were remnants of say Ludo Kressh's armada from the Great Hyperspace War then they would have:

 

a) Destroyed each other in a civil war (such is the way of the Sith)

b) Why would they sit around and do stuff all for centuries? Surely they would have attacked and failed. They wouldn't remain secluded for such a long period of time

c) Why would it take them centuries to rebuild their Empire?

 

This theory IMO really does make a lot of sense. Congrats. Mind if I use this idea for my K3 story?

[JediMaster12]

Well if you pay attention to the little sripts on the loading screens, it says that the True Sith died out ages ago. The Sith of the here and now are merely followers of an ideal. There is also mention in that there was a species of Sith and that they mingled with the Jedi of long ago or something like that. Even the ghost of Ajunta Paul said that they weren't the first to rebel against their Jedi masters. Mostly I think this True Sith idea is the notion of the ultimate evil, the thing that cannot truly be destroyed if you catch my drift. It's hard to explain really but that is my take on it.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

The real Sith (an actual race of Sith) died out ages ago. Modern Sith are only followers of the Sith ideal.

 

c) Why would it take them centuries to rebuild their Empire?

Well as you yourself stated in your post, the Sith commonly fight civil wars, so I think that each time they had nearly rebuilt, they fell into civil war again and again.

[The Architect]

Well as you yourself stated in your post, the Sith commonly fight civil wars, so I think that each time they had nearly rebuilt, they fell into civil war again and again.

 

In fact, I used this idea in my old, unfinished K3 story, which you've read. But now I actually prefer SilentScope001's idea more.

[SilentScope001]

Mind if I use this idea for my K3 story?

 

Sure. Just remember to give me some credit, as well as a URL to your fan fic, so I could read it later on. Thanks for using this idea.

[Emperor Devon]

That would contradict the multiple statements of an empire in the Unknown Regions...

 

I think it's quite plausible, myself. Nothing in TotJ mentions a thorough conquest of rhe Sith's territories. And given how they occupied a region of space which the Republic had no hyperspace routes or knowledge of, the idea they could still hold on to entire planets isn't that far-fetched. They existed for a few millenia in the dark before the Great Hyperspace War, anyway. With the reasons I previously mentioned, there's no reason they couldn't do it again.

 

The Sith have practiced patience, though. During the Rule of Two, they stayed in hiding for centuries just to await the birth of a powerful enough Dark Lord.

[Rabish Bini]

I quite like that idea, it's better than the current idea. I agree with Architect, why would they be sitting around doing nothing? I hope this becomes the story line, as I like it.

[The Sith'ari]

In fact, I just finished reading the comics "Dark Lords of the Sith" which depict how the spirits of the Sith appeared before Exar Kun and Ulic. Indeed, the Sith that appeared in that comics all exist in a ghost/ spirit form, and there are others incarnated in holocrons. As the Sith there are all true Siths (the original Siths instead of Sith wannabes), I think it's pretty clear that they're similar to what we'll be facing in K3. Perhaps we'll have to kill the ghosts like how Exar Kun killed the ghost of Freedon Nadd.

 

But even that way the true Sith isn't just an idea. They're real, they're there, they just exist in spiritual form, and they're able to kill you just like how Freedon Nadd and other Sith spirits almost killed Exar Kun.

 

Perhaps, in K3, the PC will experience something like what Exar Kun did. When fighting the true sith, the PC being crushed and physically injured, and is given a choice of either to accept the dark side or to die. Of course he may not actually die, else there'd be no ending for lightside players. For some other reason he may be saved even after he rejects the dark side. But well, it's a choice, like that we faced on the temple summit in K1.

[JediMaster12]

I quite like that idea, it's better than the current idea. I agree with Architect, why would they be sitting around doing nothing? I hope this becomes the story line, as I like it.

Sometimes, the best way to smote your enemy is to make them perceive that there is no threat at all. Also attacking from the shadows gives no clear face as to whom the enemy is. If you don't know his face, then you can't properly judge modes of attack in defense. Brilliant in my opinion.

[Sith_Reven]

I would think that the Sith empire would be waiting. Preparing for battle on the edge of space. That all the time the sith would occupy the unknown regions and possibly surround the galaxy for an all out assault of the galaxy. They are waiting in the shadows

[Jediphile]

I can see it now: "Knights of the Old Republic III: The Phantom Menace". Oh wait...

 

I don't think this will happen. Somehow you need real life-and-blood enemies in the game to make it interesting, I think.

 

Besides, though Nadd's spirit may have been instrumental in Kun's fall, we should remember that Nadd's position in the sith order has always been in question. Although he followed the Sith way, it's unclear whether he ever had the position of the dark lord. He merely made himself king of Onderon, it seems, and never achieved a high position among the Sith. His history with Naga Sadow was also never revealed fully.

[Kas'!m]

At least, not in physical form. The Sith is not a race...it is merely an idea.

 

Oh really? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_%28species%29 says otherwise. And the Massassi are Sith and I know for a fact that Luke SKywalker fought a Massassi on Yavin IV. And what Kreia said when she refer to machines, she meant that Revan's Sith were not Sith. The Sith were just a group of Jedi exiled from the Order and most of Revan's Sith were never part of the Order. Revan can't destroy the Sith because we know of people like Bane, Kas'im, Kaan, Sidious, and Vader.

[Jediphile]

Oh really? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_%28species%29 says otherwise. And the Massassi are Sith and I know for a fact that Luke SKywalker fought a Massassi on Yavin IV. And what Kreia said when she refer to machines' date=' she meant that Revan's Sith were not Sith. The Sith were just a group of Jedi exiled from the Order and most of Revan's Sith were never part of the Order. Revan can't destroy the Sith because we know of people like Bane, Kas'im, Kaan, Sidious, and Vader.[/quote']

 

The problem is that we still don't know entirely who these mysterious "true Sith" really are. We only know that they exist according to Revan and Kreia, but other than that we know next to nohting about them, which gives both the developers and inventive minds on these boards a free pass to suggest pretty much anything they like for now (or close to it, anyways).

 

As for the Sith species, they had already interbred so much with the dark jedi cast out by the jedi order after the Hundred Year Darkness that the original species had virtually died out in its original form. And these dark jedi were not sith. They just formed the basis of what later became the Sith empire, when they subjected the original Sith species to their will and then interbred with them. The massassi do not seem like genuine members of the original Sith species to me, as they look nothing like them. Or at least, they have been horribly transmuted if they are, which is a possibility given Sadow's Sith sorcery (nice bit of alliteration there, eh? )

 

And Revan may destroy the "true Sith" in that they do not quite seem to be the same as the Sith, as we think of them. Had that been the case, I doubt Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma could have been dark lords, nor could Darth Revan and Darth Malak.

[igyman]

SilentScope might really be onto something with this. Just imagine a third sequel where you face untold danger and save the Republic from yet another crisis, defeat the Sith Lords that follow the teachings of the True Sith Empire only to find out that the Empire they were serving was long since destroyed and it's rulers dead.

[JediMaster12]

Ah but remember that a true Sith never dies. Survival of the fittest is their rule.

[The Architect]

I don't think this will happen. Somehow you need real life-and-blood enemies in the game to make it interesting, I think.

 

What, so the 'True Sith' is the only potential enemy for K3? Come on Jediphile, you should know better. I'll give you an example:

 

Now, say if K3 is set <5 years after K2 and the Exchange is now the most powerful faction in the galaxy. Crime and corruption is much more abundant in the galaxy, due to a crippled Republic, Jedi Order and Sith Order (the known Sith) who are feeling the scars that the last decade or so of war has brought them.

 

Now, what if the Exchange is still collecting bounties on force users? Say GO-TO (if you set DS Exile) or a replacable character (if you set LS Exile) has made a 'financial deal' with Systech corporation, and they are manufactoring HK-51 droids for the Exchange, used to hunt down all remaining Jedi, Sith and force users.

 

Now, if the Exchange finds out you're force sensitive, you could have all soughts of enemies after you, ranging from mercenaries, bounty hunters, HK-51 droids. You might run into trouble with the Hutts or a species from a particular planet. Basically, the point is, there are plenty of potential enemies apart from the 'True Sith' in K3.

 

You could make enemies with the Jedi remnants or the known Sith remnants as well. Meanwhile you are dragged into the main plot (whatever it may be) and your goal is to destroy the beacons, holocrons, artifacts, places or whatever of the 'True Sith'.

 

Besides, you and I both know two force users who the main character could fight in K3. You could fight the spirits of Ancient Sith Lords as well, and fight them in the flesh (like how Ragnos used Tavion's body in JA).

 

The point is, coming up with enemies in K3 shouldn't be a problem, so personally, I don't see the problem with SilentScope001's idea. Quite frankly, it really does make a lot of sense.

[Jediphile]

Meh. Even if it made sense, it all sounds a little too much like Sky Captain to me.

[The Architect]

Meh. Even if it made sense, it all sounds a little too much like Sky Captain to me.

 

Be that as it may, I still think it's better than the 'True Sith' being some uber powerful massive Ancient Empire that was just sitting around sun baking in the unknown regions for centuries.

 

"So, what have you been doing all this time?"

 

"Well, despite the fact we have a strong Empire and we wanted to destroy the Republic and the Jedi Order, we never attacked them for all this time, up until now that is."

 

"Why?"

 

"Well, we were originally supposed to attack the Republic, but then we started playing pazaak and reading the Ziost playboy magazines...for 800 years. A bit of a distraction that was."

 

Seriously, it wouldn't take them so long to rebuild, and if they had a civil war in the unknown regions during their secluded rebuilding phase, it is likely they would have wiped each other out. Even if they didn't completely wipe each other out, the Sith don't believe in love, a civil war would have crippled them, so I don't see any Sith younglings coming into their Empire either.

[BanthaFodder01]

Architect there are flaws within your idea.

 

1) After K2 the Exchange was crippled, so it seems, afterall their main operations decimated by an unkown person. If there is a crime faction of some type it will most likely be the Hutts.

 

2) The sith artifacts survive, they are mentioned later on in SW lore. So you cant have the mission be "destroy all sith artifacts" because it cannot happen or it will contradict SW lore.

 

3) We know they Sith have been waiting, they are smart. We know they wait, at least in some form, maybe not with their empire, but they do wait. Remember Anakin Skywalker? You think the Sith Lords just poped out of the ground the day he was born? No.

 

The sith are looking at this whole thing as one huge plan that can span thousands of years. They waited for a powerful jedi. Remember how the jedi couldnt sense the SITH LORD right next to them? This was their plan. The Sith were gone, not acting in force, not showing themselves for so long that the jedi did not know what they felt like in the force, were not used to them. Of course they can sense the dark side, but usualy one learns when one acts, and the Sith have a different impression than a regular dark jedi, a greater and darker deepness. But with so many years (literally thousands) they were able to prepare themselves and train themselves to walk among the jedi, and the jedi wouldnt know the Sith Lord is the leader of the very thing they are trying to protect. Of course the idea of only two sith changes things also, a whole army of sith is gonna attract attention.

 

What Kreia meant was either two things.

 

A. Quite literally they werent the True Sith, and when she said the true sith died out ages ago she also meant that literally (just because she spoke in tongues once doesnt mean she always spoke in tongues). The actual Sith species, which the dark jedi based their original teachings on died out (at least thats what Kreia knows of them).

 

B. That Malak was never an actual Sith. he only assumed the role of Sith Lord. They never ventured into the ancient Sith Empire from which the true sith teachings existed. They just took the name Sith because it was the name of an ancient empire ruled by dark jedi and crippled the Republic.

 

Actually we dont really know that there is a Sith Empire waiting, just Sith. Kreia kept saying the ancient Sith Empire, where it used to stand, its ancient temples and learnign centers, as if it crumbled and the only thing left is hundreds of worlds with relics of the Sith and many Sith Lords fighting amongst eachother. OR, the same thing except only a few Sith, and they are trying not to create an empire in fear that they will destroy themselves.

[DARTH_DANZIG]

At least, not in physical form. The Sith is not a race...it is merely an idea.

 

This is a speculation that will be proven wrong once K3 comes around, but until then...

 

I speculate that the True Sith do not exist as aliens or as humans, or as any mortal being. I speculate that the True Sith Empire has already been destroyed, but the people are still alive, living holocrons or sith relics, or transformed themselves into Force Ghosts and Sith Spirits. They want to destroy the Republic, and want to take it over, as revenge for their loss in the Great Hyperspace War. All of them are defenders and creators of the idea of the Sith, and they are willing to do whatever it takes to have the Sith win. It is they who are waging the "war of ideology" that Canderous talked about in the cut content.

 

I need some sort of example to prove this...Exar Kun, for instance, fell to the Dark Side by Freedom Nadd and other Sith Lords upon Korriban and Yavin IV. These people corrupted Exar Kun and made him a slave, before Exar Kun killed the ghost of Freedom Nadd.

 

And then...from http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Exar_Kun

 

 

 

With this scene, I believe that the True Sith strikes from holocrons, and centers of learning, where they can corrupt. Their main goal is to convert people to their cause, and then contorl them. Here, the Sith used Exar Kun and Ulic to bring back the "Golden Era of the Sith". Both Exar Kun and Ulic want to lead such a Golden Era and allied themselves to the Sith spirits, not knowing that they were in fact being contorlled by the Sith spirits, who want to be the power behind the throne. Exar Kun and Ulic would do all the heavy-duty work in restoring the Empire...but the Sith Spirits would get all the glory in running it.

 

Prehaps Revan saw the spirits of the True Sith, and turned away from its will. But, he fell to the Dark Side in the process. Revan still kept his love for the Republic and therefore decided to go on a crusade to get rid of this enemy. By creating a new Sith Empire, one that everyone will love, then people would be totally converted over by Revan's Sith Beliefs that nobody would pay attentio to the Sith leaders of the old. They would worry about the now. If nobody listens to the Sith Empire's holocrons, then they are defeated. Revan's plan failed.

 

If so, three questions can be answered:

 

-Why did Kreia claim that the "machines" of the Sith were not really Sith?

A: Because they were not really Sith. They were Rakatan technology.

 

-Why did Revan leave his allies?

A: They can be converted by the True Sith...or the True Sith may put them in jeoporady, forcing Revan to fall to save them. Or prehaps Revan might fall, and by letting his allies stay in the galaxy, he would ensure that the allies will not fall alongside him.

 

-How can Revan destroy the True Sith?

A: By destroying every single Sith Holocron and Centers of Learning that the Sith Empire has built. It will take awhile.

 

But, I can be wrong. In fact, I proberly am wrong. Tear this theory apart as you will. It just somehow fits with what Kreia is stating, that the Sith is an idea...

 

 

 

NO, if all this is, then there are mobile emenies there already.

However, that is exactly the context which delivers the plot essence.

"In the great war that come", means mobil hostiles, not immoble ones. Ofcourse again, relics, tombs and places all have their pending weight in how it all really is.

[Xaris Vynn]

I was led to believe the Dark Jedi that were exiled from the order found the Race of the Sith, then learned their dark sorcery and Interbred with them and because knowledge of the dark Sorcery and the Force were revered by the Sith race and were heralded as Lords and that is where the Dark Lords of the Sith came into being and that this interbreeding bred them into extinction.

 

I also thought that the before the great Hyper space at the end of the golden age of the Sith empire The Dark lord of the Sith Marka Ragnos did not want to venture into “known” Space to avoid a war with the Republic, because he did not want to lose the power he had by expanding the empire too far. Then when he died, Ludo Kresh and Naga Sadow fought for power to become Dark Lord. Thru deceit Naga Sadow won and used the Hyperspace route to get to the republic and start a war with them.

 

Although I believe Slientscope001 Idea is good I am kinda partial to the story the way it is for the overall scheme of the SW lore.

 

This would be a good plot for the 3rd installment.

[Ben_Walker]

I recall hearing that the Mandalorians were goaded into raging their war with the Republic by the Sith, implied that those were the True Sith. So there would have to be some sort of flesh and blood vessel of the True Sith's will. As that war weakened the Republic and would make them an easy target for future attacks, proven by Revan and Malak, though I don't think they weren't the ones it was intended for.

 

I do like SilentScope's concept. As I've had it to my throat with super powerful untouchible invincible forces of evil from role plays that I took part in previously. I'd like something different for a third game.

[Jediphile]

I recall hearing that the Mandalorians were goaded into raging their war with the Republic by the Sith, implied that those were the True Sith.

 

Actually, that quote, which is from KotOR1 IIRC, always made me think that it was a reference to the Sith of Exar Kun's day, since the Mandalorians did ally with Exar Kun's Sith order.

 

You're right that it could be interpreted to be the true Sith, though. But we don't actually know that.

 

If it were the "true Sith", then all the wars that precede the end of TSL could all have been staged by them - the ancient Sith spirits on Korriban "accepted" Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma as Sith, so they could weaken the Republic. They manipulated the Mandalorians into fighting the Republic in the Mandalorian Wars. They seduced Revan and Malak to the dark side, so they would make war on the Republic and weaken it even further. They watched as Traya, Nihilus, and Sion rose from the ashes of Malachor V and waged their Shadow War on the remains of the jedi.

 

Why? Because they never grew powerful enough to openly attack the Republic. But now they have... The jedi are gone. The Mandalorians are broken. The "pretender" Sith are destroyed. The Republic is in ruin, as per G0-T0's predictions. Now is the time...

[Ben_Walker]

It's more likely to be from Exar Kun, but if it was the True Sith then it could tie in the events of all the KOTOR games into one plot.

 

But this is what I hate about TSL, LA left too many branches of the story hanging. Yes most likely to set the stage for a third and final installment, but until that ever happens we'll never know for sure.