KOTOR III should be like... (insert game)

[Inyri]

There is a lot good action RPG games out there with excellent stories.

Name one. Oblivion's story was next to nonexistant. Fable's was poor at best.

 

Or, are you really scare that you will have to do the fighting in the battles?

Because computer won't be doing the fighting for you, no more.

Suggesting that the people here who want KotOR to remain a story-line RPG have no gaming skill is slightly rude. Consider, perhaps, that this is the type of game they want and like. People don't buy a type of game they like, and game developers don't completely change a game series that has won awards and has been incredibly successful. Not only will it not switch over to an action RPG, but it shouldn't.

[Windu Chi]

Name one. Oblivion's story was next to nonexistant. Fable's was poor at best.

Those are your opinions, I like Jade Empire's story.

But both of our opinions are bias, InyriForge.

Also there are plenty of turn-base RPG games with terrible stories.

Not only will it not switch over to an action RPG, but it shouldn't.

First of all, how the hell do you know what they are going to do?

I don't know neither do you or anybody else here.

[Arátoeldar]

Those are your opinions, I like Jade Empire's story.

But both of our opinions are bias, InyriForge.

Also there are plenty of turn-base RPG games with terrible stories.

First of all, how the hell do you know what they are going to do?

I don't know neither do you or anybody else here.

 

I don't see Lucas Arts getting really stupid if they continue the Revan-Exile Story lines in K3. If they change the style game play it will piss off huge KotOR fan base. This will in turn lead to a loss of profits. You can keep swing against the tide but you will lose in the end.

[tbl]

1) Why are so scare that the story is going to suffer if the game combat become realtime action base?

I highly doubt the story is going to suffer in any percentage; your fears are unwarranted.

2) There is a lot good action RPG games out there with excellent stories.

3) Or, are you really scare that you will have to do the fighting in the battles?

Because computer won't be doing the fighting for you, no more.

4) Also what the hell is a pwnage game?

I added the numbers.

1) Because in D&D RPG's like KOTOR, the story is equal to the action.

2) Like Fable *ahem*. Action RPGs may have good stories sometimes, but traditional RPGs are known for good stories.

3) Then play a damn action game. Call of Duty 2 is great. I take it you haven't played traditional RPGs like Balders Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Fallout, strategy games, or any game that requires more thinking than a fast index finger.

4) A game where the main purpose is to kill, pwn if you will, your opponent.

 

First of all, how the hell do you know what they are going to do?

I don't know neither do you or anybody else here.

Because he's psychic or maybe its his opinion. It is after all the most likely scenario, firstly it's unlikely such a big change would happen in an award winning series; secondly it seems to be what most fans want.

[Windu Chi]

I don't see Lucas Arts getting really stupid if they continue the Revan-Exile Story lines in K3.

I didn't say nothing about changing the story.

If they change the style game play it will piss off huge KotOR fan base. This will in turn lead to a loss of profits. You can keep swing against the tide but you will lose in the end.

They are going to either piss off the action RPG fans or the turn-base RPG fans, so they going to lose profits either way, Arátoeldar.

They can't and don't satisfy everyone wants.

Also part of that huge KOTOR fan base are realtime action combat fans too.

Don't forget that, Arátoeldar!

[tbl]

Also part of that huge KOTOR fan base are realtime action combat fans too.

Don't forget that, Arátoeldar!

If they're are KOTOR fans, they have obviously played the last two modified D&D 3.5 KOTOR games and have liked it enough to be considered a fan.

[RedHawke]

I didn't say nothing about changing the story.

They are going to either piss off the action RPG fans or the turn-base RPG fans, so they going to lose profits either way, Arátoeldar.

They can't and don't satisfy everyone wants.

You are obviously dead-set on this windu6, so this part is mainly for everyone else to ponder.

 

When making an RPG you have to satisfy 3 specific player types... (Out of 4 total, but the last one isn't really related to a single player game.)

1. Players that give themselves game-related goals, and vigorously set out to achieve them. This usually means accumulating and disposing of large quantities of high-value treasure, or cutting a swathe through hordes of enemies.
   
2. Players that explore to try to find out as much as they can about the virtual world. Although initially this means mapping its topology, later it advances to experimentation with its rules and story points.
   
3. Players who role-play simply for the story and care not for the rules or other systems, to them it is a means to an end, nothing more.
    
    
   
4. The fourth type of player the killers are uniportant for a single player RPG, but are part of the audiance for multi-player games.
   

You can't satisfy all player types completely no matter the game, but as you can see 2/3'rds of your SP RPG audience (B and C) can care less for "real-time" or 'twitch' combat. Only the first type, the 'Achievers' (A), would be interested in 'twitch combat'.

 

These are the undisputed facts of RPG and MMORPG design. Much of which is taken from research done some time ago by a person named Bartle, Google Bartle's Player Types sometime. If any are interested that is.

 

Also part of that huge KOTOR fan base are realtime action combat fans too.

And as I pointed out above, a larger percentage of the audience isn't a "realtime action combat fan", see these kinds of games aren't for 'twitch' they are for a releaxing and cerebral expirience. Not many RPG players can play a 'real time combat' game for very long before they have to stop, while the slower turn based KotOR games can be played at any pace and speed.

 

Not everone is gifted with good reflexes either, or have debilitating conditions like arthritis and as such can't enjoy the action games you do. You have to think of those players as well, especially when designing a games like the KotOR games.

 

Just some info to ponder windu6.

 

Edit: To DARTH_DANZIG below...

 

It can be incorporated with an OPTIONAL FACTOR.

As easy as this sounds, from a design perspective it isn't really feasable, you don't spend your finite development funds on a function that 2/3'rds of your audience would simply disable.

 

Sad but true.

[DARTH_DANZIG]

Yes it should be like K1 and K2' date=' but something has to be changed seeing the release of it will be like 1-2 years later. It should essentially keep the feel of the KotOR series, but with various improvements. I wouldn't mind better graphics and physics and larger, open areas or even character customisation. All is good as long as one can tell it's a KotOR game.[/quote']

 

 

 

^^^ this is the guy who said it most accurately as it defines the ultimate goal. What keeps a game to it's type, is something that is fairly easy and very generous as to it's process. I DO say, as much implementation as possible. I want to play a game that doesn't ANNOY me more that it SATISFIES me! Quite the adverse infact. Action combat IS my higher emphasis here. It can be incorporated with an OPTIONAL FACTOR. Oh and yes the area, graphics, apparatus and diologues could use some work too. I look for quality, that's just me.

And to those who pose the fictitious position, "If you don't like it why don't you go play another game?", impart to my ideas, I say, "If you don't like it why don't you go play another game?" Ahem, we ALL have a say period.

[Prime]

Also part of that huge KOTOR fan base are realtime action combat fans too.

A lot of them like GTA too.

 

But why should they change the type of game the series is midway through it? Perhaps down the line another series could go that way. But why change it now, especially when it has been so successful?

[Arátoeldar]

I didn't say nothing about changing the story.

They are going to either piss off the action RPG fans or the turn-base RPG fans, so they going to lose profits either way, Arátoeldar.

They can't and don't satisfy everyone wants.

Also part of that huge KOTOR fan base are realtime action combat fans too.

Don't forget that, Arátoeldar!

 

Actually the majority of DnD CRPGs players are either female or older males.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Why are so scare that the story is going to suffer if the game combat become realtime action base?

I highly doubt the story is going to suffer in any percentage; your fears are unwarranted.

There is a lot good action RPG games out there with excellent stories.

Or, are you really scare that you will have to do the fighting in the battles?

Because computer won't be doing the fighting for you, no more.

Also what the hell is a pwnage game?

My "fears," as you put it, are non-existent. You think I'm scared to do the battles on my own? This certainly isn't the only game I play, and many other games I play have real-time combat.

 

I didn't say nothing about changing the story.

They are going to either piss off the action RPG fans or the turn-base RPG fans, so they going to lose profits either way, Arátoeldar.

They can't and don't satisfy everyone wants.

Also part of that huge KOTOR fan base are realtime action combat fans too.

Don't forget that, Arátoeldar!

I highly doubt they're going to piss of the action RPG fans because not too many action RPG fans play this, I'm thinkin (that is, except for you ). They're not going to suddenly change the entire combat system of a game series just to please the much smaller action RPG fan-base.

[DARTH_DANZIG]

A lot of them like GTA too.

 

But why should they change the type of game the series is midway through it? Perhaps down the line another series could go that way. But why change it now, especially when it has been so successful?

 

 

Quite simple, so it can be even more succesful, and for even more reasons. If combat element is so insignificant to naysayers of change, then why does it affect the thought of the game so strongly if it is merely improved and integrated? Options too confusing?

 

That should really conclude the entire line of thought in that usually my comments are generally as universal as humanly possible, it won't. Because people are so obviously confused most in due to simple fear.

[Inyri]

I think saying people are afraid of twich-based combat is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. The fact that it is the only argument you guys can come up with is disturbing.

 

We don't want twitch combat. KotOR series is not an action game. Why should our only possible reason to be against twitch-based combat be fear? It's simply not suited for this type of game. And people are quite certainly right when they say proponents of twitch-based RPG's are a minority. To satisfy them would be to alienate the majority, which would be, to say the least, a poor economic decision for the developers. They'd lose far more gamers than they'd gain, regardless of what you will try to argue. RPG players play for the story (in general), not the gameplay.

[DARTH_DANZIG]

I think saying people are afraid of twich-based combat is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. The fact that it is the only argument you guys can come up with is disturbing.

 

We don't want twitch combat. KotOR series is not an action game. Why should our only possible reason to be against twitch-based combat be fear? It's simply not suited for this type of game. And people are quite certainly right when they say proponents of twitch-based RPG's are a minority. To satisfy them would be to alienate the majority, which would be, to say the least, a poor economic decision for the developers. They'd lose far more gamers than they'd gain, regardless of what you will try to argue. RPG players play for the story (in general), not the gameplay.

 

 

Ok, so then using that big statement of yours, you can then understand that merely making the COMBAT part of the game, adverse enough to have DECISION between OPTIONS of engagement methods, adds more to the game while taking nothing away from it.

Combat simulation, in my understanding has nothing to due, with character depth, or story strength berevement. It actually ENHANCES the game, and overall, the story.

 

If combat is of ANY part of the story, then it simply becomes another form storytelling/character progression/plot addition.

This is again to say, the player CAN CHOOSE, whether to engage turn-based, pause allowance, action-response, or action free-range.

One more thing, I don't have much experience with games other than morrowind, oblivion, zelda, lotr, and kotor when it comes to rpg. Except mario rpg for snes, and some final fantasy.

Meaning most ideas I suggest, I've basically summed up myself. I state this because I see other methods already exist. I've got plenty of experience in considering encompasing factors of game idea creation.

[Wrathan]

Have any of you played Star Wars D20 PnP? Real-time combat is NOT D20 based, but KotOR IS! So, THAT is why they will not change the combat style/system. If they do/did it would disrupt the ENTIRE game, because it is not a how good are YOU, but how good is your character.

[tbl]

On a different note, I think K3 should use something similar to the Half Life 2 engine for faces and facial expressions.

[Windu Chi]

 

And as I pointed out above, a larger percentage of the audience isn't a "realtime action combat fan", see these kinds of games aren't for 'twitch' they are for a releaxing and cerebral expirience. Not many RPG players can play a 'real time combat' game for very long before they have to stop, while the slower turn based KotOR games can be played at any pace and speed.

Sad but true.

I talking about Star Wars fans who are fans of the KOTOR series.

I lot people who like playing action games or action RPGs and despise turn-base combat, are fans of the KOTOR series.

It is bias to believe otherwise, RedHawke.

[RedHawke]

I talking about Star Wars fans who are fans of the KOTOR series.

When designing a game the "fans" are exactly what I addressed above. For they are the ones playing the game...

 

I lot people who like playing action games or action RPGs and despise turn-base combat, are fans of the KOTOR series.

Doesn't matter what these players "despise", as these type of "fans" (like yourself) are a mere 33% of the core audience, as I clearly stated above.

 

You don't cater specifically to that 33% without alienating the other 66% who don't really care about such things and are content with the current system.

 

It is bias to believe otherwise, RedHawke.

No, it is biased to post and believe what you do, I am just stating game design facts here.

[tbl]

This thread is getting kinda spiteful, anyway...

I, [like a*] lot people who like playing action games or action RPGs and despise turn-base combat, are fans of the KOTOR series.

You despise KOTOR's combat system which makes up roughly half of the game, but call yourself a fan?

 

*I'm assuming that's what you meant.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

You don't cater specifically to that 33% without alienating the other 66% who don't really care about such things and are content with the current system.

 

What about the others 1%?

[tbl]

What about the others 1%?

33%≈1/3 & 66%≈2/3.

⅓+⅔=1

Happy?

[SilentScope001]

Redhawke, I actually seen many people buy into the KOTOR series and become great fans of it because they believe it to be a real-time action RPG. No matter how much I tried to tell them it's not really an action RPG, they...well...think it's an action RPG, and love it. So, I let it be.

 

So, prehaps, a sizable majority of people like action RPGs but like the pace of KOTOR and think of it as an action RPG already. So, even so there may be a lot of Action RPG fans of KOTOR, since they believe KOTOR is an action RPG, there is no need to change it to be a TRUE Action RPG.

[Prime]

Because people are so obviously confused most in due to simple fear.

Oh brother.

 

Fear of what? A lot of players, including me, play a lot of FPS and TPS and enjoy them. Doesn't mean that those same people want those elements put into KOTOR. People play different games for different reasons.

 

Ok, so then using that big statement of yours, you can then understand that merely making the COMBAT part of the game, adverse enough to have DECISION between OPTIONS of engagement methods, adds more to the game while taking nothing away from it.

But it is taking something away from it. Trying to capture multiple gametypes in one game pretty much never works, let alone excels. These games tend to be subpar at each gametype compared to games that focus on them. This is for a number of reasons.

 

First, there is a finite amount of time and money that can be used in developing a game. Dividing those up over multiple gameplay types of course means that less is devoted to each. So it is easy to see that such games are going to likely be poorer at each genre. You are never going to have a scenario where you are going to get twice the time and budget to do "equally well" at two genres, for example.

 

Even if you did get that for what you are suggesting, it still isn't possible. There are all the technical issues that arise when you try to support multiple types of gameplay on the same level. You can't just expect to take a level and apply two gametypes and expect both to work equally well. AI, level design, weapon layouts, character progression, storylines, cutscenes, engine selections, bugetary asset allocation, modeling, etc. are all driven or at the very least affected by the choice of gametype. And selecting one gametype presents a set of challenges and requirements that will differ greatly from the challenges and requirements of another gametype.

 

It is very difficult to impossible to develop something that would support multiple gametypes in a satisfactory way. You have no choice but to make compromises and workarounds, which invitably leads to the game not doing each genre as well as a game focused on one or another would.

 

If combat is of ANY part of the story, then it simply becomes another form storytelling/character progression/plot addition.

This is again to say, the player CAN CHOOSE, whether to engage turn-based, pause allowance, action-response, or action free-range.

And have an experience that will be subpar with any of those campared to a game that focused on one. No thanks.

[tbl]

I like how it is turned based, but it plays out in real time makes it feel more like a movie your in.

 

*********************************

Redhawke, I actually seen many people buy into the KOTOR series and become great fans of it because they believe it to be a real-time action RPG. No matter how much I tried to tell them it's not really an action RPG, they...well...think it's an action RPG, and love it. So, I let it be.

 

So, prehaps, a sizable majority of people like action RPGs but like the pace of KOTOR and think of it as an action RPG already. So, even so there may be a lot of Action RPG fans of KOTOR, since they believe KOTOR is an action RPG, there is no need to change it to be a TRUE Action RPG.

Perception is nine-tenthes (9/10) of reality, but that doesn't make it anymore true. Anyway, those people are "..." and I'm sure most people would realise that if you can pause, give orders and have no direct control over the combat, it's not an Action RPG.

[Jediphile]

Have any of you played Star Wars D20 PnP? Real-time combat is NOT D20 based, but KotOR IS! So, THAT is why they will not change the combat style/system. If they do/did it would disrupt the ENTIRE game, because it is not a how good are YOU, but how good is your character.

 

Precisely. And yes, I have played d20 Star Wars. I hate d20. The Star Wars variant is one of the better systems, though it still enforces the aspects of d20 that I dislike the most - fixed classes and experience levels.

 

Though I want a turn-based combat system for the exact reasons you mention here, I'd much rather have a GURPS-like development system for the character build-up, since that always seemed more appropriate to me. Levels are just silly somehow.

 

I never forget Marcus in Fallout 2:

 

"Wow! I feel as if I've passed some arbitrary experience value and gained more power!"

 

That always sums my feelings about levels up pretty nicely