Jolee's DS and Kreia's LS acts

[SilentScope001]

I refer to the two Grey Jedi in the KOTOR series, Jolee Bindo and Kreia. Except, well, they don't sound Grey.

 

Jolee Bindo, for instance, is Grey. But he does a lot of LS actions, like breaking blockades. But, the only DS action i saw Jolee did was giving up on helping the Wookies...and prehaps sparing his wife.

 

Kreia is also Grey, but her infulence options are usually DS and she does not hesisate to use Dominate Mind whenever she wants. She seems like a manlipuative witch and is willing to do whatever it takes. The only three LS actions I saw Kreia worry about the consquences of actions (by doing a good action, you could be doing much harm), condemning a Dark Sider for mindless slaughter since she prefer more manlipuative methods, and saving the galaxy from the False Sith by training the Exile. Kreia also mentions that for whatever good she has done to the galaxy, she has done an equal amount of harm, but we do not witness for the most part her good, and see for the most part her harm.

 

Usually, since Grey Jedi are in the middle (as can be witnessed by looking at their alignment screen), they usually are neither good or evil. Quite possibly, under Kreia's section, I explained how she was both DS and LS, making her balanced, but it still doesn't seem that "complete". But Jolee didn't seem to do any DS actions...

 

So, what I want to know is what DS actions does Jolee do and what LS actions did Kreia does. Since we see Jolee's LS actions and Kreia's DS actions, the DS and the LS should cancel out and create the Grey Jedi we love. Please help me find these DS and LS actions that make these Grey Jedi...well....Grey.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Kriea was once the Jedi Achive person... she kept the records... so at one time she was a Jedi Master.... and Kriea is Darksided throughout the game, she just hides it until the final battle.

 

Jolee, never made it past Padawan... poor guy. NOT! Jolee, if you'll notice is a little Lightsided... he is not completely grey.... was never light nor dark, he was on his way to being light, and he doesn't care what choices you make... therefor making him a Grey Jedi Padawan

[Jediphile]

It depends on the definition of grey, I guess.

 

For me, Jolee is grey because he rejects the jedi order. But in his case, that's a good thing, considering how arrogant the council has become. I actually find Jolee more insigthful and wise than the entire jedi council combined, and therefore more benevolent also, his cranky disposition not withstanding - it really just becomes a lovable character flaw

 

Kreia, however, isn't grey at all to me. She just tries to wear her "greyness" as a mask, so that she can appear more benevolent than she really is. She may not be entirely dark, in that she is not out to subject all living things to her own will, as most Sith lords do, yet she still puts her own goals and desires above the well-being of everyone else, and that certainly is not the way of the jedi - be they grey or otherwise. That the ultimate goal of her intents may be considered somewhat based on concern for the greater good becomes secondary by the lengths she is willing to go to and what she is prepared to do to get her own way. If Kreia is grey, then her grey is darker than the black of many a Sith lord...

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Jolee is grey only because he rejects the council, and I like him all the more for it.

 

Kreia, IMO, is completely dark and she only wears her "greyness" as a mask.

[cards227]

Kreia is not trully grey, i mean she is a sith lord.

[JediMaster12]

Jolee is grey because he says so himself: "I can assure you I see more grey than light or dark and frankly both extremes annoy me." The shades of grey are those in between choices.

 

Kreia was a DS grey Jedi. She pointed out the advantages of both but she leaned more towards the manipulative side of things which lead to the dark side.

[jonathan7]

Kreia is a tricky one, as was she always DS but you just couldnt see it (although I always thought what she was saying was quite DS) or did she just find the lure of the DS too strong and go back to it?

 

Jolee as described on the official kotor website;

"A former smuggler, and skilled Jedi, who has chosen to retreat from society and live out his days in seclusion and obscurity, Jolee Bindo cloaks himself in indifference to hide his sorrow. He appears as a cantankerous old man who readily dismisses the wide world and its troubles with an impatient wave of his hand, but his care and wisdom still shine through the many layers he has draped around his heart.

 

His story is unknown aside from rumors that he fought in the great war of Exar Kun four decades ago, a time when Jedi turned against Jedi and the dark side threatened to swallow the galaxy. What happened so long ago that would push a man to leave the Jedi order, to leave civilization itself and go into self-imposed exile in the deepest shadows of wild Kashyyyk? Jolee himself is not forthcoming and scoffs at any suggestion that he might be something more than what he appears: an old man.

 

One thing that is very clear; he is weary of this world and its endless, pointless struggles. He insists that all he wants is peace, but Jolee Bindo's eyes, the eyes of a fighter, the eyes of a Jedi - tell a different story."

[tbl]

Kreia (pre-Traya) was a lot more gray than Jolee. Jolee was clearly LS but was considered a gray jedi because he rejected the order.

[The Sith'ari]

Usually, since Grey Jedi are in the middle (as can be witnessed by looking at their alignment screen), they usually are neither good or evil.

 

Indeed being in the middle does not necessarily mean neither good nor evil. Even a grey jedi could actually be good, if you assume human beings are good in nature.

 

Jolee was clearly LS but was considered a gray jedi because he rejected the order.

IMO Jolee is definitely LS; him voluntarily leaving the Jedi Order does not make him grey; indeed, it tells even more of his LS nature.

 

And Kreia... what do you think? Don't tell me you truly believe she's grey. She even changed his entire outfit and hair clippings in the end to shout at you, "I'm DARK!" She's dark all along. It's just that she's cleverly dark, and she commits dark deeds not to gain dark side points, but genuinely because she has reasons doing it.

 

But whether that makes her darker than other dark lords is a matter of opinion. I'd say she's less dark. Darkness for darkness's sake is just utter evil.

[Jediphile]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't grey jedi just jedi who have left the order but not fallen to the dark side?

 

I don't get the impression that their being "grey" means that they are any more or less "light" than the jedi in the order - they have just left the order and don't feel compelled to follow the code. That doesn't say anything about whether they are more or less "light-sided" than the jedi who still follow the code within the order. At least that's my impression.

 

Same thing with dark jedi. They've left the order, whether the jedi or the sith, and embrace the dark side. But they don't do so according to any code.

[Allronix]

Jolee was a thief ("Um...some just had more than they could use"), more than a little arrogant and self-pitying ("The Order left me") and he does have a temper ("Manhandle my garden will they?!"). Had he faced his "punishment" to serve as a Jedi, he may have been a powerful voice for moderation and against the "we are Jedi, so we are right" mentality. Instead, he chooses to run and duck in the woods. He does nothing about the Wookiee situation, either.

 

Kreia? The most noble reasons of all. She wants to spare the universe the endlesd cycle of pain, war, and death brought on by the Jedi/Sith, Light Side/Dark Side battles that burn the galaxy. She wants people to achieve their own destiny, choose their own path without interference from religious groups or the pernicious Force that keeps its balance (and survival for its own sake). She also will scold a DS Exile over senseless cruelty. An act - charitable or cruel - must serve a purpose.

[Jae Onasi]

Jolee's 'greyness' at the beginning of the game may have been due to him turning his back on the galaxy and doing nothing instead of using his powers for good. He does some good stuff once he joins you, but he didn't work too hard at stopping evil when he had the opportunity prior to meeting the PC. Smuggling/stealing isn't exactly a lightside act, even if it's Robin Hood-esque in intent.

 

Edit: Allronix, I didn't see your post before I hit the submit button.

[The Sith'ari]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't grey jedi just jedi who have left the order but not fallen to the dark side?

 

I don't get the impression that their being "grey" means that they are any more or less "light" than the jedi in the order - they have just left the order and don't feel compelled to follow the code. That doesn't say anything about whether they are more or less "light-sided" than the jedi who still follow the code within the order. At least that's my impression.

Um... I looked up in Wiki and it reads:

 

Most Gray Jedi had a tense relationship with the Council – while, for most intents and purposes, they were loyal members of the Jedi Order, their maverick natures often put them into conflict with it, especially against more conservative members of the Council.

 

And

 

"Jinn always does things his own way, always sure he is right, always incredulous if we do not see it his way. Some think he is a gray Jedi."

—Tyvokka on Qui-Gon Jinn

 

Qui-Gon certainly did not leave the order, but "some think he's a grey jedi".

 

I think grey jedi just mean jedi who don't stick to the Order rules, not necessarily being out of the Order.

 

Same for dark jedi...

From Wiki:

 

Dark Jedi, also known as "Fallen" Jedi were Force-sensitives, frequently Jedi, who chose to deny the light side of the Force and follow the dark side.

 

It seems that "fallen siths" (or should I say "risen"? Weird...) are not "dark jedi". Only have-been jedi can be "dark jedi". They may follow Sith teachings, which makes them Siths too.

 

I think it makes sense because I remember in K1/K2 I always hear some voice saying, "Another dark jedi!" while I know the enemies there were Sith.

[Jediphile]

Jolee was a thief ("Um...some just had more than they could use"), more than a little arrogant and self-pitying ("The Order left me") and he does have a temper ("Manhandle my garden will they?!"). Had he faced his "punishment" to serve as a Jedi, he may have been a powerful voice for moderation and against the "we are Jedi, so we are right" mentality. Instead, he chooses to run and duck in the woods. He does nothing about the Wookiee situation, either.

 

I think that's a little harsh. Yes, Jolee was gray in the sense that he was willing to bend the rules of the order, though I do think he adhered to its spirit. "More than they could use" could suggest a redistribution of wealth for the sake of the greater good, a la Robin Hood, as Jae points out. However, while that may be a violation of the law, I don't see it as being against the jedi mindset. On the contrary. The jedi are supposed to be compassionate and help the poor and destitute, so Jolee giving them stuff would seem consistent.

 

As for "the Order left me", I don't think that's self-pity. On the contrary, Jolee was filled with self-loathing over his failings. He desperately need the order to impose some kind of penance on him, so that he could atone for his actions. The order failed him completely by just forgiving him. That's why he left.

 

And he doesn't do anything to help the Wookiees, because the Wookiees don't do anything about it either. He seems quite willing to help them, but he can't be a god that saves them from all their troubles, and he knows that. It always seemed to me that he was waiting for the Wookiees to stand up to Czerka before he would aid them. That's the thing about Jolee - he may help, but he won't be paternalistic in the condesending sort of way, where he solves all the problems for someone. They have to make an effort themselves first. It's one thing I really like about Jolee - he's not the typical all-fatherly know-it-all that many jedi are.

 

As for running away, I just don't think Jolee felt anyone needed him. Wouldn't it be arrogant to assume the council or the rest of the galaxy couldn't do quite well without him?

 

Kreia? The most noble reasons of all. She wants to spare the universe the endlesd cycle of pain, war, and death brought on by the Jedi/Sith, Light Side/Dark Side battles that burn the galaxy. She wants people to achieve their own destiny, choose their own path without interference from religious groups or the pernicious Force that keeps its balance (and survival for its own sake). She also will scold a DS Exile over senseless cruelty. An act - charitable or cruel - must serve a purpose.

 

I agree with the principles here. Kreia's goals are, ultimately, benevolent from her standpoint. The problem with her lies with the lengths she is willing to go in order to achieve her goals. She is quite willing to sacrifice entire worlds full of people to reach her goals. That she let Nihilus know of jedi hiding on Telos speaks volumes. She may have expected the Exile to stop him, but she couldn't be certain it would go that way, and had it not, it is quite clear that she would have had no problem letting Telos die. Although her ultimate goal may be admirable as a principle, Kreia remains utterly ruthless and uncaring in the pursuit of her goals. If she have to sacrifice innocents to reach her goals, then she's quite willing to step over a few bodies. So I really consider her very dark sided.

[jonathan7]

I agree with the principles here. Kreia's goals are, ultimately, benevolent from her standpoint. The problem with her lies with the lengths she is willing to go in order to achieve her goals. She is quite willing to sacrifice entire worlds full of people to reach her goals. That she let Nihilus know of jedi hiding on Telos speaks volumes. She may have expected the Exile to stop him, but she couldn't be certain it would go that way, and had it not, it is quite clear that she would have had no problem letting Telos die. Although her ultimate goal may be admirable as a principle, Kreia remains utterly ruthless and uncaring in the pursuit of her goals. If she have to sacrifice innocents to reach her goals, then she's quite willing to step over a few bodies. So I really consider her very dark sided.

 

I concur. I also think some of you are a little harsh on Jolee, what was he meant to do about Czerka, especially if the Wookie leadership had signed deals with them?

[Allronix]

True, but it was for the sake or argument. Honestly, I think Kreia is a manipulative, nasty hag that would kill the whole galaxy to prove her bloody point, and that Jolee is the guy who lives the Code when others just spout it.

[Jediphile]

True, but it was for the sake or argument. Honestly, I think Kreia is a manipulative, nasty hag that would kill the whole galaxy to prove her bloody point, and that Jolee is the guy who lives the Code when others just spout it.

 

Fair enough. Although I would say that Jolee does not so much live the code of the jedi order as its very soul. But that's just me splitting hairs

[Vaelastraz]

Let's put the whole philosophy and code things aside.

 

Jolee is a good person. Compare him to someone from everyday's life, Jolee may be cynical, but he's good, there's no doubt about that.

 

Kreia may is manipulative and cold blooded, and her goals to not benefit anyone. She's evil.

 

So for me, neither Jolee nor Kreia are in the middle between good and evil. Thing is, there seems to be no middle between good and evil in Star wars....

[Rasputin1st]

Jolee is awesome and is only gray because he is not with the council.

Kreia got kicked out for being evil or something like that.

[Jediphile]

Jolee is awesome and is only gray because he is not with the council.

 

QFE

 

Kreia got kicked out for being evil or something like that.

 

They exiled her after Revan went to war, because they felt that her teachings had led him to the dark side, since no "real" jedi would have embraced war like that.

 

Kreia: "I was a historian once, gathering the relics of the Jedi, learning the ancient mysteries. Always, there were more questions.One quickly learns that the Jedi code does not give all the answers. If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea. That is why Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall."

[jonathan7]

They exiled her after Revan went to war, because they felt that her teachings had led him to the dark side, since no "real" jedi would have embraced war like that.

 

Kreia: "I was a historian once, gathering the relics of the Jedi, learning the ancient mysteries. Always, there were more questions.One quickly learns that the Jedi code does not give all the answers. If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea. That is why Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall."

 

To be fair though I would have to say to an extent they were right if Kreia's teachings were the same as they are in TSL as I would say her teachings are dark in all but name. That said, I firmly believe that Jedi Council was weak and were to affraid of things to have clarity on any descions as I think over the course of K1 and TSL they were generally proven to be an incompetent lot with the exceptions of Vandar and Zhar (and from the cut content Vash) but I think, espcially Vrook, Kavar and Zez el whatever where weak and not real Jedi; I believe a Jedi's place is to protect the people no matter what, not hide because Jedi are being killed - (Yoda and Obi Wan had purpose in that they were waiting to train Luke to over throw the Emporer) where as the Council were hiding due to fear.

[Jediphile]

To be fair though I would have to say to an extent they were right if Kreia's teachings were the same as they are in TSL as I would say her teachings are dark in all but name.

 

I wouldn't agree entirely with that. Kreia doesn't like that the Force has a will that controls people and decides their fate. She wants to defy that will and break its control. That's her philosophy.

 

In itself there is nothing wrong about that, though it does depend on how you perceive the force. If the Force is basically another word for God, then Kreia is a satanic hero, as Satan in Milton's "Paradise Lost" or Ahab in Melville's "Moby Dick." I definitely think the comparison to Ahab is appropriate.

 

However, if you don't consider the will of the Force to be of a religious nature that you cannot question or challenge, since doing so would be hubris, then defying the force is really not much different than challenging authority in any manner, particularly an oppressive one, which is also okay. Kreia simply asks the age-old question: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? "Who watches the watchers?"

 

I have no problem with this philosophy. Where Kreia errs IMHO is in what she is prepared to do to reach her goals. She has no problem manipulating people in the most underhanded way or sacrificing countless millions (like on Telos) to further her cause. Be her goals noble or otherwise, that is not acceptable by any definition, if you ask me. She's far too ruthless and uncaring to the suffering of others as she pursues her ideals. So even though those ideals may be admirable and noble, they are undermined by what she is prepared to do for their sake.

 

That said, I firmly believe that Jedi Council was weak and were to affraid of things to have clarity on any descions as I think over the course of K1 and TSL they were generally proven to be an incompetent lot with the exceptions of Vandar and Zhar (and from the cut content Vash) but I think, espcially Vrook, Kavar and Zez el whatever where weak and not real Jedi; I believe a Jedi's place is to protect the people no matter what, not hide because Jedi are being killed - (Yoda and Obi Wan had purpose in that they were waiting to train Luke to over throw the Emporer) where as the Council were hiding due to fear.

 

As much as I dislike Vrook, I do think you're being a little too hard on the jedi masters in TSL. Consider this quote from their meeting with the exile on Dantooine...

 

"The last Jedi conclave was on Katarr, a Miraluka colony. And all of Katarr was destroyed, all of the Jedi killed...Including Master Zhar... Master Vandar...A Jedi doesn't care if he dies. Everyone does, but when we fight, when we sacrifice ourselves, it is for others, for the greater good. But our presence must not endanger others. And as long as we were visible targets, we were a threat to everything around us."

 

It's pretty clear to me that the jedi did not merely hide because they were afraid of the Sith, but rather because they feared what could happen to those innocents who got caught in the crossfire.

 

There are plenty of reasons to dislike the jedi masters of the KotOR era, but I don't think their decision to hide during the Shadow War was one of them. They actually did have good cause beyond saving their own hides.

[jonathan7]

I have no problem with this philosophy. Where Kreia errs IMHO is in what she is prepared to do to reach her goals. She has no problem manipulating people in the most underhanded way or sacrificing countless millions (like on Telos) to further her cause. Be her goals noble or otherwise, that is not acceptable by any definition, if you ask me. She's far too ruthless and uncaring to the suffering of others as she pursues her ideals. So even though those ideals may be admirable and noble, they are undermined by what she is prepared to do for their sake.

 

See I would disagree on the grounds that Kreia, goes with the Philosophy that people are better off fighting there own fight. I however think this simplifies a community. In that in a community you have soldiers, police, doctors, builders etc all who have diffferent but valuable jobs, in essence no one is better than anyone else, and all cannot cope without the other. What I mean to say I will always help other if they need it, and I do not believe helping another weakens them. I would have to confess that I am undecided as to the exact nature of the force. In itself though if Kreia's opinion was correct of the force then she could be considered 'righteous' however the evil she is willing to do can achieve these goals makes her evil. I suppose this comes more down to a matter of opinions though

 

 

As much as I dislike Vrook, I do think you're being a little too hard on the jedi masters in TSL. Consider this quote from their meeting with the exile on Dantooine...

 

"The last Jedi conclave was on Katarr, a Miraluka colony. And all of Katarr was destroyed, all of the Jedi killed...Including Master Zhar... Master Vandar...A Jedi doesn't care if he dies. Everyone does, but when we fight, when we sacrifice ourselves, it is for others, for the greater good. But our presence must not endanger others. And as long as we were visible targets, we were a threat to everything around us."

 

It's pretty clear to me that the jedi did not merely hide because they were afraid of the Sith, but rather because they feared what could happen to those innocents who got caught in the crossfire.

 

There are plenty of reasons to dislike the jedi masters of the KotOR era, but I don't think their decision to hide during the Shadow War was one of them. They actually did have good cause beyond saving their own hides.

 

I did not remember that quote, so they did have a reason, although I still believe they should have taken the fight to the sith (like Vash did in the cut content) I also think the council was foolish not to engage the Mandalorions (sp), how were they protecting the people then? Would Revan have fallen had older Jedi been there to advise? Perhaps I was being a little harsh on them, but I really dislike Vrook, I think hes arrogant and too far up his own arse.

[SilentScope001]

So even though those ideals may be admirable and noble, they are undermined by what she is prepared to do for their sake.

 

Prehaps she was faulted by adopting the same tactics as her enemies, using manlipuation to win, being driven cynical.

 

But, what I wonder is that is there any other way to counter the Force? She note it as how it manlipuate others...how echoes can cause people to do stuff...how it has a will. How can you counter a manlipuator...expect by manlipuating?

 

What I mean to say I will always help other if they need it, and I do not believe helping another weakens them.

 

I would do so too, but the fact is, that it could weaken them, and that if it does, you are responsible. Nice acts has great, horrible effects. You give a person 5 credits, and he get mugged.

 

You go and save a wife of a person, and you deny that person the ability to decide what his truth in life.

 

You go and fight in the Mandlorain Wars, protecting a planet, and denying them the right to defend itself...so they become weak when you are gone, and the true threat arrives...

 

I will still do good actions, and Kreia states that it would great to help others...if you intend to weaken and harm them. "Healing is manlipuation," Kreia believes, after all. But a true LSer would not want to harm others, would not want to let others be hurt, even unintentionally by aiding them, letting them suffer something greater. Kreia states that, in an attempt to show that everything has consquences, and that one must think before they act.

 

I also think the council was foolish not to engage the Mandalorions (sp), how were they protecting the people then?

 

But it was repeated over and over that they were waiting for the true threat to emerge, to attack them. That true threat could be the True Sith, which was revealed to be using the Mandalorains. What if the Jedi Council attacked the Mandalorians and gotten so weak that the True Sith easily invades and destroy the galaxy?

 

Or what if the Jedi Council, under the leadership of Kavar, learning more of the True Sith, fearful of letting the Mandalorians win, decides to fall to the Dark Side, and form the Sith Empire? Then, the Republic would have fallen, and a greater evil would be served.

 

While one may be angry at what the Council indescion and desicion has wrecked for the galaxy, do not be blind to your own arrogance and faults as well.

 

(Though the Jedi Council waiting for one strong in the Force to combat Darth Nihilus, while a nice throwback to the OT series...is also ironic, since only one who is deaf to the Force can kill off Nihlius. But they didn't know that. They should not be faulted for ignorance.)

[The Sith'ari]

That's the thing about Jolee - he may help, but he won't be paternalistic in the condesending sort of way, where he solves all the problems for someone. They have to make an effort themselves first. It's one thing I really like about Jolee - he's not the typical all-fatherly know-it-all that many jedi are.

I like Jolee all for that.

There's the old wookie who chose to die to protect the honour of a deceased wookie, who actually conspired with Cerzka in slave trading. Jolee was all for letting the old wookie die than letting the truth be known. I once thought it was a DS act, letting an innocent die just to defend the honour that was undeserved. But well, now that I think of it, Jolee was just letting the old wookie have his way. If the old wookie desired so, and if "honour" was that important to their tribe, who were the outsiders to decide for them what's right and what's wrong?