PC of KotOR III's force connection?

[Fish.Stapler]

This is kind of going to be a random address of points in no particular order.

 

The Exile's companions may have raw force potential, but they don't have training. Just because Anakin had a lot of raw force power and used it to fly his podracer didn't make him more powerful than other Jedi.

 

Mandalorians are born and bred for war, but they're still human, twilek or what other species you want to have in there since the Mandalorian species has died out. They're like Mechwarrior clanners - strong warriors but not invincible. They were annihilated by the Jedi once they joined the wars.

 

If you're complaining the backstory would be forced, of course it is. You HAD to be Revan in K1. You HAD to be a Mandalorian war veteran in K2. You HAD to live with your past mistakes. You can't create your own character backstory (except for a certain extent like how you treated the council in K2) so of course the backstory is forced. This has been stated by both Jediphile and myself, but nearly all Star Wars releases are Light Side biased. Nearly all Sith get their start as a Jedi. The basic formula is

 

Forceuser + Training = Jedi

Forceuser + Training + Stimulus = Sith

 

It happens to a lot of Jedi.

 

 

When you have a Mandalorian join the Jedi Order you lack a big thing: motive (at least as far as I can see). Why would a Mandalorian want to join the Jedi Order? Sure, it could be under Mandalore's orders but why would the Jedi let a Mandalorian in? To a certain extent they were the True Sith's catalyst that wiped out the Republic...few trust them, much less the Jedi Order that was annihilated precisely because of them. Sure, you could let a Mandalorian in to retone for past crimes, but then all of a sudden there's the redeption thing that you don't seem to like. The Jedi have to actually let you in to the order, and if you want in you need a good motive. Redemption is probably the best motive of any.

 

But what if you had a Jedi Knight who left the order? It doesn't even have to be that his master was suspected of dark side taint and he was too, he could just be dissatisfied with the way the Jedi Order operated. He could even keep helping people outside the order. Maybe he was just dissatisfied with the bureaucracy. His motive for coming back could be the fact that since there's an entirely new order reforged from the ashes, it could have a fresh start and he could help them to be the caring people he wishes the Jedi Order could be.

 

Too biased towards the light side you say? Of course, since that's a light-sided motivational stimulus. Perhaps he left the Jedi Order because he thought they were weak and that compassion was for fools instead of leaving since they were too lofty to help people. He could see this rising order and he could yearn for revenge for the percieved wrongs they exacted upon him. He could infiltrate them, hide his emotions, get his training back and unload the bbqpwn on them all. Then he could do...whatever. It's up to the devs, so I'm crossing my fingers.

[Salzella]

You know what I am fearing? K3 is going to go and disappoint everyone. Me, and you. I am going to be pemmestic and state that K3 will be a comrpomise between K1 and K2, but because of that, it will make a very, VERY bad blend. K3 will not have the black and white storyline of K1, nor the relativistic story of K2, and it will be considered quite terrible like ROTJ. It will try to please everyone, and end up pleasing no one. It may...stink.

Your glass isn't half full it's empty. ouch.

[The Architect]

Were Revan, exile, Bastila and Zayne biased towards the LS? I don't think so - Revan and Bastila did fall to the dark side, and it was your choice whether they should embrace it or return to LS. Zayne was accused of being DS and chose to defy either possibility. Exile has the choice as well. Clearly being raised by the jedi order does not force any choice on you. I mean, look at Zayne and Bastila, whose background we do know something about. They were both given to the jedi order when they were very young. Is that forced? They didn't have a choice, but then they were also too young to make one. What if my character is a newborn on Coruscant with strong force sensitivity and poor parents - is it forced that they decide the character should be raised in the jedi order? No, because it's just training - clearly it in no way dictates your alignment choice. Besides, most Sith Lords we know seem to have come from the jedi order (Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Revan, Malak, Bastila, Traya, Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, etc.).

 

Well, I can’t argue now that being someone who was a Jedi means that you’re being biased towards the LS, nor can I argue that being someone who is born into the Jedi Order is being biased towards the LS. You’re right.

 

Forgive me for misconstruing your idea. I thought your idea was that you start off as someone who is a padawan on Coruscant that wasn’t born into the Jedi Order. Don’t ask me why I thought that. It’s been a while since I read your KotOR III story.

 

And technically, even if you started off as someone who prior to the events of the game wasn’t a Jedi, but at the beginning of the game is on Coruscant training to become one, as long as why you’re there isn’t forced on you by the devs, that isn’t forced either. The moral of the story here is that my “biased towards the LS” argument has come crashing down like the tower of Barradur.

 

Well, it IS called Knights of the Old Republic. There are no knights among the Sith or the Mandalorians...

 

Yeah yeah, I’ve heard that cliché before. Starting off as a Sith or someone who was one is a big no no for me (because if you choose the LS, you are going into that repetitive Star Wars theme of redemption). That being said, being a Mandalorian force user isn’t such a good idea after all.

 

I fail to see the difference between playing a Mandalorian, who is born with a disposition towards DS, over a jedi whom - according to you - is born with a disposition towards the LS. It is at least as forced if not more so IMHO.

 

Actually, so do I now.

 

So would anyone raised by the jedi order be given Sion's and Nihilus' shadow war.

 

Yes I know. I never claimed otherwise.

 

Only if it is, again, forced on the player. Maybe I don't want to follow Mandalore, as he tries to suck up to Revan and exile. Maybe I think he's just a pathetic fanboy who disgraces the Mandalorians by turning us over to our enemies, just like Esok did. If that's what I want to do and I can't, then it's also forced.

 

Well, strong linearity also applies to KotOR, TSL and your story as well. I guess this is just a moot point. KotOR III is going to be linear too, but I am expecting it to be not as linear as its predecessors, since I assume it will come out on the Xbox 360 (more space) and the PC (obviously there’s no problems there).

 

That argument is just as valid for a jedi not being LS, I think. Nobody says that starting as a jedi you MUST be nice, goody-goody little Disciple-lookalike - you can be just as much of a jerk as you want to even so. Indeed, the chances for that are now greater than ever in the plot, given what shambles the jedi order is really in.

 

Yes I know. As I’ve said, my “too biased towards the LS” argument is dead.

 

The Mandalorians were cannon fodder for the jedi. Their strength lay in their determination, and they prayed upon the Republic's uncertainty and indecision. Once Revan and Malak led the Republic forces and were willing to make sacrifices, the Mandalorians began losing. Revan killed Mandalore. The Mandalorians were only better than the republic soldiers because they were so ruthless. Besides, if you're a Mandalorian (and I have suggested that myself in the past), then following your background while having force powers is clearly biased towards DS. I thought you didn't like the character being "forced." Indeed, how Revan, Malak and all the other jedi fell to the dark side because they were taught war by fighting the Mandalorians seems to confirm that. If I were a force sensitive Mandalorian, I'd much rather my character was raised by the jedi order, because then I'd have a background that tends towards DS and one towards LS. Which will I chooce? And, of course, I'll be an outcast because neither side will like me much.

 

Yeah, you’re right. That being said, I think playing as a Mandalorian who was raised by the Jedi Order is a great idea, for obvious reasons.

 

Your LS option is forced because I must be a spy, and so we're back to square one. In fact, we're not even on square one, because we have no reason why this character has a strong force connection that allows him to rise to high levels quickly in the plot. He was never a force-user before, if I understand you correctly, and so he has no advantage over any other force sensitive character we could imagine. And if he did have a history as an experienced force-user and fought in the Mandalorian Wars, then he would already be a dark jedi or a Sith...

 

Well, he/she doesn’t necessarily have to have a strong connection to the force. Canderous (who isn’t even a force user) was more than a match for a Dark Jedi and a Sith (as evidenced by KotOR).

 

Mandalorians are quite capable of killing a Jedi one-on-one. That’s the impression I got based on what I learned in KotOR and TSL. Think about it, if you’re a Mandalorian (who without being a force user, is almost as good as Canderous and pre-KotOR Mandalore) who can use the force, that explains why you can take on and defeat the big guns of KotOR III. Meh, this is also a moot point, since you’ve convinced me that the idea isn’t as good as what I initially thought it was.

 

An "indecisive" Mandalorian is someone who was already killed by more decisive Mandalorians. Besides, if you were a veteran from the war and embrace the LS, then you must confront what you have done in the past. Which means we're back to redemption again.

 

I can’t argue against that.

 

Clearly I just did, and it didn't even take 10 minutes. Also, your argument does not address the deeper issue, which is why the central character of KotOR3 would have the ability to rise quickly in levels and become a powerful jedi or sith in almost no time. In the previous games that problem has been solved by giving you a troubled jedi background that you somehow cast aside and must now embrace again. I gave the character a background and platform to rise to greatness from. This idea gives us none, and so you might just as well play any lowly scoundrel from the streets of Corellia or wherever, since it just doesn't serve any purpose to the issue at hand.

 

And for the record, trying to "fish" for an answer or "bait" someone into responding is frankly trolling - whether I choose to respond or not is my choice, and you cannot infer anything from my silence, if I choose to say nothing. Now, I'm not angry with you, because I feel I know you and therefore conclude that was not your intent, but someone else might have been pretty upset with your tactic here, if he thought it was intentional. You really shouldn't do this in the future.

 

Just for the record, I was talking about this:

 

Jediphile, there are four problems with your idea. You said that the PC of KotOR III has a clear advantage over the Exile's companions, as he/she has gone through years of training to be a Jedi that the Exile's companions have not, except possibly the Disciple who never reached the position of padawan.

 

a) That idea seems too biased towards the LS.

 

b) How do you explain why your character is at level one (he/she must be) at the start of the game? LS/DS Exile’s companions are not level one characters, so if your character is more powerful than them, then why would they (and they would be, since you have to start at level one) be at a higher level than the K3 PC for?

 

c) Why isn’t LS/DS Bastila (your master in your story) the PC of KotOR III? Shouldn’t the PC be the most powerful character in the party?

 

d) In your story, the new Jedi Order is led by LS Exile's companions or a set of replacable characters (DS Exile), yet the PC isn't? Why? If the PC 'has the advantage' over the Exile's companions or other less trained Jedi, then wouldn't he/she be better suited in a Council member/leader role of this new Jedi Order? Why would you train under them?

 

Of course, 'a' is now a moot point.

 

Anyway, point taken. It wasn’t my intent to bait you into answering (note that I did say whether you answer or not is entirely up to you). It was foolish of me to even think that I could infer anything from your silence. That was an immature and ignorant thing for me to say. I apologize. I don’t want to cause dilemma with any forum member, especially not you.

 

 

What the hell? Why did I even argue about any of this in the first place? A fixed back story and a linear plot in KotOR III doesn’t even bother me. Did I have temporary amnesia or something?

 

The point of my topic was to point out that there should be a reason why the PC of KotOR III has the ability to rise quickly in levels and become a powerful Jedi or Sith in almost no time, just like there was a reason in KotOR and TSL. Why? To suspend disbelief.

[Fish.Stapler]

Aye, I agree.

 

The problem is that the devs of KotOR 2 left their successors so little wiggle room, what scares me is how forced it is going to be. The ONLY way I can see them making it reasonable for your PC to be able to take the true sith is prior Jedi training. I just can't see any other lore reason why it is possible. That's why I stuck by my idea so much. The Mandalorian way is logical too but I just don't see how they could implement. The foreshadowing in K2 with all the references to the Jedi who "switched off their lightsabers" seems to me to be the best bet, since they're force users who could come back.

 

I'm with a lot of you guys though, I have a bad feeling about this.

[SilentScope001]

I have already stated that I do not agree with you on that point. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but just because I have the gall to disagree with you, it does not automatically follow that I'm wrong. I'm entitled to my opinion as well.

 

...I know that. But, remember that there is more people than just you and I. I repeated my same point again to inform other bystanders what I believe, not trying to persuade you, but to persuade everyone else. It's a debate tactic that I learnt in school.

 

The point of my topic was to point out that there should be a reason why the PC of KotOR III has the ability to rise quickly in levels and become a powerful Jedi or Sith in almost no time, just like there was a reason in KotOR and TSL. Why? To suspend disbelief.

 

I agree totally, however, it is with this that is the main impetus for the discussion I had with Jediphile, and Jediphile disgarees with this, saying it's cliched. It is one where I feel no compromise can be met.

 

The Mandalorian Force User does make some sort of sense, though Jediphile did destroy it.

 

For the most part, a new Jedi Order is pretty good, with the Jedi Padawan, but we need a reason. Unfortuantly, it is this where we get the sticking point.

[The Architect]

I agree totally, however, it is with this that is the main impetus for the discussion I had with Jediphile, and Jediphile disgarees with this, saying it's cliched. It is one where I feel no compromise can be met.

 

The Mandalorian Force User does make some sort of sense, though Jediphile did destroy it.

 

Yeah, Jediphile indeed destroyed that idea.

 

For the most part, a new Jedi Order is pretty good, with the Jedi Padawan, but we need a reason. Unfortuantly, it is this where we get the sticking point.

 

Well, I'm on your side on this one. IMO, being a padawan (on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight or not) in KotOR III is just not enough to explain why you can defeat the True Sith in KotOR III. While one could argue that you can destroy them because they’re just weak, I seriously hope they’re not sissies. I got the impression in TSL that the True Sith are dangerous fockers anyway.

 

I believe that the PC of KotOR III should be the third most powerful character in the series. Revan was the only one who could stop Malak in KotOR. The Exile was the only one who could stop the Sith trio in TSL, and now…the PC of KotOR III should be the only one who can stop the main threat of KotOR III…the True Sith. Why? Because you should be made to feel important. Simple.

 

If a padawan (on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight or not) can stop the True Sith, then WHY NOT SOMEONE ELSE?!? You need to stand out. It’s not as if there are no Jedi left either.

 

You’ve got Bastila (it’s not like DS Bastila doesn’t want to stop the True Sith either). You’ve got Nomi and Vima Sunrider, and you’ve got other Jedi who “switched off their lightsabers” who could have just as much experience as the PC. According to Zez-Kai Ell, just about 100 Jedi Knights remain (we cannot be certain if he was referring to all Jedi in general or actual Knight ranked Jedi).

 

There has to be more to it. I agree with SilentScope001 and believe that if there isn’t more to it, then it cheapens the True Sith, or whoever the big gun villains of KotOR III are.

[Jediphile]

I agree totally, however, it is with this that is the main impetus for the discussion I had with Jediphile, and Jediphile disgarees with this, saying it's cliched. It is one where I feel no compromise can be met.

 

Not exactly. I do agree that it is appropriate to establish a background that allows us to explain why the pc can rise quickly in levels. I have not said otherwise. Where I disagree with you lies entirely in the question of whether this character must have a unique power to explain why he alone in the entire universe can defeat the true Sith, while no one else can. You have said in the past that the story is absurd if the character does not possess such an ability. That I have disagreed with on the basis that his opportunity to strike against the true Sith by being at the right place at the right time should be enough. I would certainly have this character be a potent jedi, just not one with unique abilities like Revan ("heart of the force") or exile ("wound in the force").

 

The Mandalorian Force User does make some sort of sense, though Jediphile did destroy it.

 

Well, I'm not entirely against the idea, I just don't see that it really does that much for us.

 

For example, I have suggested myself in the past the pc could be an orphaned Mandalorian child taken in and trained by the jedi order. The problem I always had with it was that it forced the character to be human again, and in that case I would just as well play as the son or daughter of Saul Karath, who was raised by the jedi order.

 

I mean, you're Saul Karath's son, but you were trained by the jedi, so the Sith hate you because you're a jedi, and the Republic and the jedi hate you because of heritage. So you're scorned by both sides, and when the jedi are wiped out in the shadow war, any jedi who would train you is killed. So, will you stay true to your jedi ideals in spite of having been abandoned or will you become your father's son? I liked that idea because there was controversy in it. Certainly a mandalorian background is just as troubling, but for a child of Saul Karath, you would find little love from Revan, Bastila, or Carth either, whereas they have grudgingly accepted one Mandalorian (Canderous) already.

 

That said, I would welcome the option to play non-human, and it just didn't seem to be possible with either option. Fish.Stapler seems to think Mandalorians can be any race, since the original species has died out. I'm less certain of that, since all the Mandalorians we've seen in the KotOR games seem to me to have been human. Well, I suppose we could argue they're any race under that helmet, but at least I've never been given reason to think so, seeing as how all Mandalorians we've seen with the helmet off have been humans. But if Fish.Stapler is right, then the option has potential, I think, because you could have the option of race as well as having a background that makes you hated or at least distrusted by all sides. You would also be pulled to DS by your Mandalorian background as you're pulled to LS by your jedi upbringing. In that case, the option could have a lot of interesting role-playing potential. I mean, are you really a Mandalorian or a Jedi in the end? Turn the page...

[hftghftrd]

The "Lost Jedi"? Hm? They too are Force Senstive indivudals, just like The Exile. Not to mention Atris, another Force-Senstive who could have been a brand-new founder of the Jedi Order...if she didn't do the evil stuff she did.

 

The point was that The Exile was a Wound in the Force, which is why he was being taught/brainwashed by Kreia, why the Lost Jedi came to The Exile to became actual Jedi/Sith, why The Exile was able to grow so powerful, so quickly. This was the only reason why he could destroy The Exile, and a pretty good reason why he could kill off Kreia (as an ending to her training).

 

 

 

There are other Jedi Masters that surivied the ordeal, less than 100.

 

Even so, it leads up to a question: Why not Bastila? Why not the Exile's companions?

 

 

 

You may actually get a good point, but I do not think that is enough. Jedi are rare, even rarer than they were before, but they are OTHER Force-Senstives that can take your position. How about the Jedi Padawan's Bunkmate? Why didn't this Bunkmate destroy the True Sith? Or the Jedi Masters? Surely, they are powerful beings.

 

Remember, the True Sith are supposed to be dangerous...to be wiped out by a random Jedi means that it can also be wiped out by another random Jedi. And this weakens the True Sith, and this weakens K3 overall. The PC's Force Connection is actually a huge party of the story, and a very good reason why I like The Exile, for his connection made sense, and played a huge role in the plot.

 

I don't want to make an argument again, so, let just leave it at that, okay?

If the True Sith are so powerful then why haven't they conquered the Republic yet.

 

I mean they had 20+ years to do so and yet they haven't.

 

Plus there's the fact that the Republic is extremely weak following the Jedi Civil War and yet they still haven't attacked yet.

[khawk]

The problem I always had with it was that it forced the character to be human again

 

Have you considered that being Mandalorian doesn't have to mean that you are human. I remembered Xor from Kotor I, he fought alongside the Mandalorians because he hated the Cathar race. He was, at least in the PC version a Twilek.

 

They are always behind masks. True, they speak basic but then Sasha spoke according to Revan a bit of Mandalorian. Maybe there are other races among them.

[SilentScope001]

If the True Sith are so powerful then why haven't they conquered the Republic yet.

 

I mean they had 20+ years to do so and yet they haven't.

 

Plus there's the fact that the Republic is extremely weak following the Jedi Civil War and yet they still haven't attacked yet.

 

Because the True Sith are manlipuiatve bastards who don't want to rush in and get blown into smittherens. They want to bide their time, and wait until they get an advantage and rush in.

 

Why else did they start the Mandalorian Wars?

 

And what make you think they haven't attacked already? Who knows if they're pulling off a Palpatine right now and getting themselves elected?

 

Remember, as Kavar said: "it isn't about the Republic anymore". It's about the Jedi. Kill them all, and the Jedi Order is gone, and the Galaxy is for the True Sith's taking.

[Jediphile]

Have you considered that being Mandalorian doesn't have to mean that you are human. I remembered Xor from Kotor I, he fought alongside the Mandalorians because he hated the Cathar race. He was, at least in the PC version a Twilek.

 

They are always behind masks. True, they speak basic but then Sasha spoke according to Revan a bit of Mandalorian. Maybe there are other races among them.

 

Could be. As I said before, I'm not sure. I just don't get that impression since all the confirmed Mandalorians we've seen in the games were humans. Xor was a twi'lek, but was he a Mandalorian or did he merely fight with them? I don't think we have an answer for that...

 

But yes, given that the Mandalorian race seems to have died out, it makes as much sense that twi'lek, rodians or whatever are Mandalorians as humans. I just haven't seen any conclusive evidence of that being the case.

 

Because the True Sith are manlipuiatve bastards who don't want to rush in and get blown into smittherens. They want to bide their time, and wait until they get an advantage and rush in.

 

Why else did they start the Mandalorian Wars?

 

And what make you think they haven't attacked already? Who knows if they're pulling off a Palpatine right now and getting themselves elected?

 

Remember, as Kavar said: "it isn't about the Republic anymore". It's about the Jedi. Kill them all, and the Jedi Order is gone, and the Galaxy is for the True Sith's taking.

 

I think the point was that if the true Sith are so all-powerful, then why do they need to resort to trickery and manipulation to destroy the Republic? TSL seems to confirm that they staged the Mandalorian Wars to weaken the Republic. The plan worked better than they could have hoped, because not only did the Mandalorians bring the Republic to its knees, no, it also made Revan fall and then turn on the Republic. And Revan shattered it.

 

And then, when it needed his strength the most, he left. And Sion and Nihilus then exterminated what remained of the jedi. By the end of TSL, there is little left - the Republic is on the verge of collapse, according to GOTO, who would know. And the jedi order is shattered and broken. And the Sith are utterly destroyed.

 

And yet, the true Sith have just waited through all of this. Why? Why didn't they simply attack? If they did not intend to strike against the Republic, then why did they stage the Mandalorian Wars?

 

I could believe that there are some truly powerful force-users among the true Sith, but I don't think they have a huge fleet, which is why they resorted to this strategy. Consequently, I see them as very manipulative, but not all-powerful.

[Fish.Stapler]

From Wookiepedia linky

 

"The Mandalorians (called Mando'ade in Mando'a, meaning "Sons and Daughters of Mandalore") were a warlike, nomadic nation of clan-based people consisting of members from multiple species."

 

"Many species comprised the Mandalorians, such as this Rodian."

 

They're a people united by battle, fiercer than the average members of their species. Could be interesting candidates for Jedi since all species can be Jedi and Mandalorians are comprised of all species...

[Jediphile]

From Wookiepedia linky

 

"The Mandalorians (called Mando'ade in Mando'a, meaning "Sons and Daughters of Mandalore") were a warlike, nomadic nation of clan-based people consisting of members from multiple species."

 

"Many species comprised the Mandalorians, such as this Rodian."

 

They're a people united by battle, fiercer than the average members of their species. Could be interesting candidates for Jedi since all species can be Jedi and Mandalorians are comprised of all species...

 

Yeah, but even if we trust Wookieepedia, the wiki itself casts doubt on that article, which only makes it more speculative and questionable.

 

And this information does not seem to appear in the more official databanks.

 

EDIT:

 

The foreshadowing in K2 with all the references to the Jedi who "switched off their lightsabers" seems to me to be the best bet, since they're force users who could come back.

 

I'm with a lot of you guys though, I have a bad feeling about this.

 

Actually, I'm still on the fence there. Playing TSL and noting what Revan ended up doing, where Exile ended, and most especially what the Exile did NOT deal with in the plot, I feel left several things in the open for later closure in K3. That's all assumption, of course, but I think it could lead to some revelations in the plot that could be truly nasty twists, which is always good

 

Still, that they haven't even begun is not very encouraging... It's been well over two years, and they haven't even announced the bloody thing

[SilentScope001]

[qupte]I think the point was that if the true Sith are so all-powerful, then why do they need to resort to trickery and manipulation to destroy the Republic? TSL seems to confirm that they staged the Mandalorian Wars to weaken the Republic. The plan worked better than they could have hoped, because not only did the Mandalorians bring the Republic to its knees, no, it also made Revan fall and then turn on the Republic. And Revan shattered it.

 

And then, when it needed his strength the most, he left. And Sion and Nihilus then exterminated what remained of the jedi. By the end of TSL, there is little left - the Republic is on the verge of collapse, according to GOTO, who would know. And the jedi order is shattered and broken. And the Sith are utterly destroyed.

 

And yet, the true Sith have just waited through all of this. Why? Why didn't they simply attack? If they did not intend to strike against the Republic, then why did they stage the Mandalorian Wars?

 

I could believe that there are some truly powerful force-users among the true Sith, but I don't think they have a huge fleet, which is why they resorted to this strategy. Consequently, I see them as very manipulative, but not all-powerful.

 

Well, if you listen to Kreia, you learn that she doesn't care much of the Republic, or of weaponary. Ships are nothing. Huge fleets are nothing. Superweapons are nothing. It's only...The Force. "The Republic is merely a shell that protects the Jedi, just like the Jedi is a shell that protects the heart."

 

After all, the Jedi are the most powerful people in Star Wars. It was a Jedi, after all, that destroyed the Death Star, no? It is the Jedi that can wipe out huge hordes, and destroy the greatest of ships. So, why send off ships when you should battle the real threat: The Jedi?

 

So, this would explain why the True Sith didn't send in any ships.

 

And, as I said before, you do not know that they have not invaded. I personally believe they already have, and may have done so by using Kreia herself as a pawn for the True Sith.

 

According to the Interview that the Designers, it seems as though that the developers want to give a different...mood, similar to ESB. That what you are dealing with is not a crisis, per se, but something far worse. You are dealing with the "symptoms" of something far greater. Not only is the True Sith responsible for the Mandalorian Wars and of Revan's fall...they may be responsible for Sith Trimutiave, and especially Nihlius, using him as a way to destroy the Republic further.

 

Maybe we do actually agree on something here...they may not have a strong empire, with large ships and amarada. They may "just" be uber-powerful Force Users.

 

And to Kreia, it is the Force Users that really mattered.

 

(Also, I like the idea of Kreia wanting to destroy the Force to stop the True Sith invasion. )

[Diego Varen]

I was thinking about a new PC for KOTOR III, and I thought that it shouldn't repeat the formula of a former Jedi who lost his/her connection to the Force and regains it, only the second time, much stronger than before. It has been repeated with Revan, the Exile and Kyle Katarn and while it is interesting the first time, it is worse the second or third time around.

 

A Mandalorian Jedi would be interesting, but I don't think it would work for KOTOR III.

 

What I would like is someone who knew that they had a strong connection to the Force and sometimes used it to get themselves out of trouble, but never used it to a full extent. This way, the PC would be strong for a good reason, instead of repeating the formula of a former Jedi, mentioned above.

 

You may disagree with me and that's fine. There is an interesting discussion going on here.

[darthxarga]

I honestly think it should be someone who never considered the force or the Jedi in his life. So im thinking some sort of shop keeper on a remote planet who gets sucked into the journey of his life. From that they have endless possibilities.

 

This seems logical. It sounds a bit cool too. But I wouldn't know how the story would come along, and I like how mystery is revealed about pasts and present things. I wouldn't know.

[Jediphile]

A Mandalorian Jedi would be interesting, but I don't think it would work for KOTOR III.

 

What I would like is someone who knew that they had a strong connection to the Force and sometimes used it to get themselves out of trouble, but never used it to a full extent. This way, the PC would be strong for a good reason, instead of repeating the formula of a former Jedi, mentioned above.

 

The main concern with that idea is how we explain that this person can rise to high experience levels in a very short time. As you say, this was explained in the previous games by playing a character who had the training but lost the ability and had to regain it, and so could rise quickly because it's easier to retrace your steps than it is to start from scratch. And while I agree that we cannot pull that one again, we do need grant a reason for this person becoming a powerful jedi or sith in a short time.

 

Btw, why wouldn't your idea work for a Mandalorian jedi?

[The Architect]

Not exactly. I do agree that it is appropriate to establish a background that allows us to explain why the pc can rise quickly in levels. I have not said otherwise. Where I disagree with you lies entirely in the question of whether this character must have a unique power to explain why he alone in the entire universe can defeat the true Sith, while no one else can. You have said in the past that the story is absurd if the character does not possess such an ability. That I have disagreed with on the basis that his opportunity to strike against the true Sith by being at the right place at the right time should be enough. I would certainly have this character be a potent jedi, just not one with unique abilities like Revan ("heart of the force") or exile ("wound in the force").

 

Uh, just for the record, Revan isn’t literally the heart of the force. Right place at the right time or not Jediphile, it’s hard to believe that a padawan would be capable of defeating these True Sith. You don’t think they’re that weak, do you?

 

I think the point was that if the true Sith are so all-powerful, then why do they need to resort to trickery and manipulation to destroy the Republic?

 

TSL seems to confirm that they staged the Mandalorian Wars to weaken the Republic. The plan worked better than they could have hoped, because not only did the Mandalorians bring the Republic to its knees, no, it also made Revan fall and then turn on the Republic. And Revan shattered it.

 

And then, when it needed his strength the most, he left. And Sion and Nihilus then exterminated what remained of the jedi. By the end of TSL, there is little left - the Republic is on the verge of collapse, according to GOTO, who would know. And the jedi order is shattered and broken. And the Sith are utterly destroyed.

 

And yet, the true Sith have just waited through all of this. Why? Why didn't they simply attack? If they did not intend to strike against the Republic, then why did they stage the Mandalorian Wars?

 

Well why not? If you had the choice to fight in a war against a strong Republic and a strong Jedi Order and potentially lose, or successfully stage a war that would weaken your enemies without losing any of your people, what would you choose? It’s not exactly rocket science, is it? I know what I’d choose.

 

If they did indeed stage the Mandalorian Wars, then they are clever IMO. If they didn’t, remember, they are Sith, and we know that the Sith fight amongst each other for power, so perhaps they had a big civil war against each other that screwed up their initial plans. Who knows?

 

So, why didn’t they attack after the Mandalorian Wars? Because of the Jedi Civil War, that’s why. Their enemies were destroying each other. Why not just sit back and wait? Would you intervene in a fight between two of your worst enemies? Now, why didn’t they attack after the Jedi Civil War?

 

HELLO! Remember your plausible, sense making “civil war” idea?

 

I could believe that there are some truly powerful force-users among the true Sith, but I don't think they have a huge fleet, which is why they resorted to this strategy. Consequently, I see them as very manipulative, but not all-powerful.

 

I agree with you that they don’t have a huge fleet. Still, I believe they are a threat, and aren’t weaklings. Maybe they do only have a few powerful force-users among them, we don’t know at this stage. I still don't like the idea of a padawan being able to beat them though, all-powerful True Sith or not.

[Emperor Devon]

Uh, just for the record, Revan isn’t literally the heart of the force. Right place at the right time or not Jediphile, it’s hard to believe that a padawan would be capable of defeating these True Sith. You don’t think they’re that weak, do you?

 

I don't think Jediphile was trying to imply that. "Heart of the Force" seems to be more of a term that Kreia once used to describe Revan rather than something official.

 

If they did indeed stage the Mandalorian Wars, then they are clever IMO. {snip} Now, why didn’t they attack after the Jedi Civil War?

 

One idea is that the True Sith were totally uninvolved in the Mandalorian Wars - after all, the only source for that is content cut from the game, and it would contradict Canderous' statements about the Sith and the Mandalorians in KotOR I.

 

He does say that the Sith sought them out to fight the Republic, and remarks on their situation when he says "we thought it would be centuries before they came back." This perfectly fits the remnants of Exar Kun's Sith - after the war, what was left of them fled to the Outer Rim in a very weak state. They'd be far more capable of knowing the Mandalorians existed than the True Sith, and would have a much higher chance of persuading them to attack the Republic. The Mandalorians might even have decided to attack the True Sith in time, if they knew they existed.

 

But from another perspective, having big and all-powerful enemies wait in the background seems to be a normal thing in SW. The Yuuzhan Vong had spies in the Empire shortly after the reborn Palpatine died, but waited until it fell apart before attacking even though they probably could've won then. (Though arguably, the Vong are non-canon due to how they're so plain awful)

 

The True Sith might've been waiting because they didn't want to go up against Sion and Nihilus, who were invincible to all but the Exile. If they were capable of knowing about and convincing the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, knowing about those two (or at least the fact that the Jedi and the populace of whole planets was missing) would seem a small matter.

 

Mmm, I think we'll have to wait until K3. There's just too much stuff left unclear about the True Sith for me to really say.

 

I agree with you that they don’t have a huge fleet. Still, I believe they are a threat, and aren’t weaklings. Maybe they do only have a few powerful force-users among them, we don’t know at this stage.

 

I'd suspect they have a tremendous fleet that'll wipe the floor with the Republic until the PC kills of their leader, which will somehow turn the war around. As per usual.

[HK-87]

Well, I'd like to think you ARE a nobody, whom is force sensitive. When you were a young person, (Teens?) you sort of break into the mysterious man who came to live in your frontier settlement about a year or so ago. You find his lightsaber. He discovers you, and also notices your force sensitivty. He teaches you a few tricks. Nothing dangerous, just how to lift medium to small objects or so. Later, <insert assassin plot here> You find the hermits house on fire, and you find a Holocron he had been saving. It teaches you basic jedi techniques, and from there on you get a grasp of the concept of the Force.(This probably happened during the events of TSL) Years later, your a drifter, whom happens to enjoy a brief conversation with a member of the newly reestabalished Jedi Order. He waves you off, just in time to see you muged. Having honed your slightly rusty skills in the force over the years, you manage to defeat the man. Visibly impressed with your skilll, the Jedi offers you sort of semi padawan status, mainly because it'd be better if another, less reputable force user group were to find you. Occasionally reading through his Holocrons, you tavel with him as a member of a retinue. Arriving on generic planet #24, you are both attacked by pirates, who manage to kill your jedi buddy. Having gotten rather strong in the force at this point, you kill the pirates, and return to the JT (Cliche bit starts.) Your recognized for some talent(this being about half way through a quarter of the story, think the taris of K3) and are granted ANOTHER reserved form of Jedi status, more as an Auxilliary for newly appointed Jedi Knights. you serve as the companion og one such lucky knight, him/her becoming your maybe first/second party member. <insert plot evolving mission here> and then the more freeform aspect of K3 begins...

 

Whew. That was irritating.

 

EDIT: Sorry for the wall-o-text, folks.

[Jediphile]

Uh, just for the record, Revan isn’t literally the heart of the force. Right place at the right time or not Jediphile, it’s hard to believe that a padawan would be capable of defeating these True Sith. You don’t think they’re that weak, do you?

 

As Emperor Devon has already pointed out, my reference to Revan is just to be in line with Kreia's perception of him. It seems a simpler way to address him and establish Revan as a really powerful force-user. I don't see Revan as more powerful than that, though. He was, perhaps, the most powerful force-user of his time, but I think that's his limit. And he would pale next to most of the Skywalkers IMHO. When people suggest Revan was the greatest ever, it always sounds to me like some fanboy's wet-dream of self-indulgence because he was Revan in KotOR... and that's not pretty either, if you ask me.

 

As for the true Sith, they do not seem to be an empire, so I would not characterize them as powerful on that level. I think there are powerful individuals among them, but I don't think they have huge fleets to do their bidding - that's why they have to resort to manipulation and guile. And they've been good at it too.

 

 

Well why not? If you had the choice to fight in a war against a strong Republic and a strong Jedi Order and potentially lose, or successfully stage a war that would weaken your enemies without losing any of your people, what would you choose? It’s not exactly rocket science, is it? I know what I’d choose.

 

Perhaps, but patience is not something I associate with the Sith. If they want the republic and the jedi to die that badly, then it seems difficult to believe they would be able to resist the urge to exploit the situation at the first opportunity... unless, of course, they had no other choice.

 

If they did indeed stage the Mandalorian Wars, then they are clever IMO. If they didn’t, remember, they are Sith, and we know that the Sith fight amongst each other for power, so perhaps they had a big civil war against each other that screwed up their initial plans. Who knows?

 

So, why didn’t they attack after the Mandalorian Wars? Because of the Jedi Civil War, that’s why. Their enemies were destroying each other. Why not just sit back and wait? Would you intervene in a fight between two of your worst enemies? Now, why didn’t they attack after the Jedi Civil War?

 

HELLO! Remember your plausible, sense making “civil war” idea?

 

Naturally I haven't forgotten my own plot, but I fear I have not expressed my intention here very clearly. The description was directed mostly at SilentScope001, whose perception of the true Sith seems to differ a lot from my own, since I don't see them "pulling a Palpatine" - I doubt they'll try to subvert the Republic by infiltrating the democratic structure. I think that when they come, they will come in force and as conquerors.

 

I agree with you that they don’t have a huge fleet. Still, I believe they are a threat, and aren’t weaklings. Maybe they do only have a few powerful force-users among them, we don’t know at this stage. I still don't like the idea of a padawan being able to beat them though, all-powerful True Sith or not.

 

By the end of KotOR3, the main character will obviously not be a padawan anymore. At least in the sense that it implies. Remember that even Revan was called a padawan towards the end of KotOR, because he was never given the rank of jedi knight. That didn't stop him from being powerful, though. Same with Jolee, btw.

 

And as you know, my plot is built strongly on the basis of getting Revan and Exile to fight the true Sith. That doesn't make the K3 pc weak, it just means he has to be more persuasive and less confrontational. We've already had one "most powerful jedi" and one "bane to jedi". It's boring to keep raising the bar by creating yet another uber-jedi, who's the most powerful yet.

 

It'd be like "Well, in K1 you're Revan, the most powerful jedi of his time! But oh wait, here's the exile, who's a wound in the force - he can resist powers that Revan is helpless against!! But oh gosh - here's the K3 pc - now he is REALLY powerful!!!!!!!!!!!" - It's boring, it's unimaginative, and it's old! Enough already!

[legend222]

The PC should be uber-powerful because otherwise the True Sith will seem weak and it wouldn't make sense if Revan is there for years and still hasn't returned and yet an average Jedi can stop them. Besides most people like the idea of being a powerful Jedi\Sith, one that can influence major galactic events and dish out some serious lightsaber and Force punishment. Personally I think it's used to often but I like it, I don't want to be just an average Jedi\Sith.

[Jediphile]

The PC should be uber-powerful because otherwise the True Sith will seem weak and it wouldn't make sense if Revan is there for years and still hasn't returned and yet an average Jedi can stop them.

 

Even if the new pc is able to able to orchestrate (and not alone, I might add) the fall of the true Sith on the basis of the hard work Revan and Exile did before him?

 

Besides most people like the idea of being a powerful Jedi\Sith, one that can influence major galactic events and dish out some serious lightsaber and Force punishment.

 

I'm not most people then, and happily so. The third uber-jedi in a row does not say good things about the plot-writers nor about the players, if that is truly what they prefer, I fear.

 

Personally I think it's used to often but I like it, I don't want to be just an average Jedi\Sith.

 

To me no individual is ever "average". In that sense, I don't think that "average" exists, because everyone is unique. Revan may have been a great jedi, but IMHO he became a victim to his own power for that very reason. Exile is the opposite, being in complete denial of past experiences throughout TSL.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

I would actually rather be a relatively "average" person, not some uber-powerful Force god like I was in the last two. By "average", I mean not someone who can find out he is Force sensitive, start training, and then in just a couple weeks he becomes incredibly powerful. Powerful enough to destroy the Sith. You don't necessarily have to "defeat" the True Sith, only cripple them enough to plunge them into civil war. The means by which you cripple them, I'm not sure, but does it always have to be a 1 on 1 battle between you and the big evil Sith Lord?

 

I would just like to see a different perspective on this in KotOR III. The True Sith should have a much more subtle defeat than an all out war ending in a final battle between you and their leader.

 

This may sound a bit confusing (heh, it's confusing even to me ), I'll just leave it up to the devs to figure out how to give it some coherence.

[Henz]

To justify your quickly developing power, I'd like a Jedi/Sith tomb that embues you with power. The PC could uncover an ancient tomb that contains the remains of two tragic jedi lovers. The plot has you reading into their lives and how they died. The love tore them apart, the woman fell to the dark side and they killed eachother.

You finally get to interract with the ghosts of the pair in seperate places and get to put them to rest. Lightside option revolves around reuniting them, Darkside has you helping the female finally destroy the male. A non-specific option has you helping the male to put her to rest (i.e nobaly killing her). After this plot, your healing/disrupting/resolving leads to a big force power payoff (basicall jargin to help explain your rapid level gaining) The tomb is full of goodies and collapses afterwards.