TSL Vs. KOTOR

[The Source]

Awe. Did I get some people upset? **sniff-sniff-sniff** What I like about these forums is that you can express your opinions openly. There are so many Star Wars games that I like, but EAW and KotOR II just plainly stink. After taking a small hiatus from the KotOR series, I began to apprechiate what 'KotOR I' was really about. BioWare created a top notch game, which I believe Obsidian fell short of replicating the originals success.

 

Maybe I should shead some clearity to why I think 'KotOR II' was not successful.

 

PC/NPC Involvement - Side Quests are almost non-existant.

When I talk about side-quests, I was refering to the PC/NPC stand alone quests. In KotOR I, every single NPC/PC had a small personal quest. Carth, Bastila, Mission, etc... In KotOR II, the only personal side quest that made it into game was Mandalore's. Plus, he side-quest was to gather forces, but they didn't reveal anything personal about him. Otherwords, we were not in search to find anything to help him out personally. Within KotOR I, Mission's brother, Bastila's family, Carth's son, etc...

 

PC/NPCs that slightly interact with the PC durring the course of the quests. / PC/NPCs that interact with each other mostly on the Ebon Hawke.

When I talked about interaction in this statement, I was refering to the PC/NPCs interupting you on your journey. Most of the dialogue in KotOR II happens on the Hawke. In KotOR I, Mission, Bastila, Carth, and the others interupt your exploration. Otherwords, you can stand on Dantooine, and Mission will give you a saddened look. The game will pause and say, "Mission looks like she has something to say, try talking to her to find out what is on her mind." In KotOR II, the interaction only happens when you hit an encounter. Otherwords, triggers at certain locations trip off, but your dialogue with the PC/NPC is soley about that specific location. The PC/NPCs don't talk about their own lives, and the game doesn't pause and say, "Kreia looks upset with you, maybe you should talk to her."

 

One Major Villan.

When I talk about 'one major villan', I am refering to Kreia soley. Out of all the characters in the game, Kreia was the puppet master - the manipulator. All other villans were her lap dogs. This is not a game failure.

 

PC/NPCs do not create personal connections with PC.

KotoR II does not have any characters that make a personal connection to the PC. Most of the PC/NPCs fall short in their romance stories. What I believe people enjoyed of 'KotOR I' was the interpersonal connections they made with Carth, Bastila, and Juhanne. What drove me personally to 'KotOR II' was the possibility for more interaction with the PC/NPCs. I was looking for that romantic element that made 'KotOR I' interesting to be in 'KotOR II'. I didn't feel for Mira when I had to go save her. When you play 'KotOR I', you build a relationship with Bastila. As she is being turtored, you feel saddened or angry about her situation. I was driven to save her life. When Mira is caught by Visquis, I only saved her so I can use her as an PC/NPC. Nothing emotional about it.

 

Jedi / Sith Training on the Road.

Another thing that I found successful about 'KotOR I' was the ability to learn in a Sith or Jedi temple. It would have been nice to goto 'Yavin IV' and find a Sith enclave. While you are there, you could have found some teachings or something. In KotOR II, Dantooine was a very big disapointment for me. It would have been nice to search the library and find some cool archives. Maybe we could have learned something new about the Sith or Jedi. We didn't.

 

You can not kill your PC/NPC. Unless you are Kreia

When I talk about killing the PC/NPCs, I refer to how you can kill Bastila, Mission, Juhanne, and Jolee in KotOR I. What KotOR II lack was the ability to kill your PC/NPCS. This would have been a cool move.

 

P.S. - I don't care about what was cut from the game. What I played is what I played. Period. Cut content means sqwat if it is not implimented.

 

Dialogue Ending (Boring and Anti-Climatic Ending.)

After meeting Kreia for the first time, you know she is the main villan. Her appearance mirrors the Emporer to the 'T'. There was no question about who I would face at the end of the game. In KotOR I, the revelations were unpredicatable. Yes, you knew Malek was your engame opponent, but you didn't see Bastila's turn coming from a mile away. Only after her turture cutscene played, you can predict what would happen next. But, not from the beginning of the game.

 

Game was not drentched with Sith and Jedi History.

Oh yes. I believe KotOR II needed some knee deep Sith and Jedi history. Obsidian didn't bother to tell us anything new about their history. When you play through 'KotOR I', I learned something new from beginning to end. 'KotOR II' lacked quizitive information, which may shead light on stuff that could have happened even further back in history.

 

If you people think 'KotOR II' was better than 'KotOR I', I have no problem with your opinions. Personally, I think 'KotOR II' was way out left field. I like playing certain Star Wars games because they mirror Star Wars. I like learning about Sith and Jedi hsitory. I like the medevil tension and feeling of 'KotOR I, and it would have been nice to see it in 'KotOR II'. I loved the Star Wars cliche that 'KotOR I' capitalized upon. I think Obsidian created a game, which did not feel anything like Star Wars. I buy Star Wars games because I want to play in a recognizable universe, which mirrors the movies that I have grown up with. I want epic battles, training, and unpredictable plots. I want my villan that has a cool sterio typical Star Wars attitude. I want a more meaningful story and importance to the PC. 'You are an echo'... Lol... Yeah, the Exile is an echo of Jabba farting. The pressure of the fart upon Jabba's cheeks can be felt across the force. Lol...

[Jediphile]

Awe. Did I get some people upset? **sniff-sniff-sniff** What I like about these forums is that you can express your opinions openly.

 

Ah. Okay, fine then. I wasn't going to do this, but since we're sharing opinions openly...

 

KotOR1: 1. PC's Main Plot Quest - Find the StarMaps, Star Forge, and Kill Malek.

KotOR2: 1. PC's Main Plot Quest - Confront the Jedi Masters and Confront The Sith.

 

KotOR1: 1. PC's Main Plot Quest - Find dead objects, find shameless Deathstar-clone, kill uber-cheesy villain.

KotOR2: 1. PC's Main Plot Quest - Find living people with knowledge of your past and a solution to your personal problem (the potentially harmful bond with Kreia) and save yourself from the Sith who hunt you.

 

KotOR1: 2. PC/NPC Involvement - Several Side Quests.

KotOR2: 2. PC/NPC Involvement - Side Quests are almost non-existant.

 

KotOR1: 2. PC/NPC Involvement - Be constantly bugged by endless sidequests, which frequently are in each other's way, like when you cannot further your personal quest with Carth after he hears of his son, or cannot further your personal quest with Bastila after she hears of her mother.

KotOR2: 2. PC/NPC Involvement - Many sidequests, but integrated far better into the plot as it evolves and therefore not causing nearly as many headaches as in the predecessor.

 

KotOR1: 3. PC/NPCs that interact with the PC durring the course of the quests.

KotOR2: 3. PC/NPCs that slightly interact with the PC durring the course of the quests.

 

KotOR1: 3. PC/NPCs that constantly bicker or whine while you're trying to solve quests.

KotOR2: 3. PC/NPCs that finally shut up and talk only when you feel like it, and whom you must work your influence with to get them to open rather than just wait for the next level of experience.

 

KotOR1: 4. PC/NPCs that interact with each other while on the road.

KotOR2: 4. PC/NPCs that interact with each other mostly on the Ebon Hawke.

 

KotOR1: 4. PC/NPCs that constantly interrupt quests be insisting on interacting with each other while on the road.

KotOR2: 4. PC/NPCs that thankfully interact with each other mostly on the Ebon Hawk, and who actually have something to say when they do.

 

KotOR1: 5. Unrelated villans with a story of their own, which the PC can interact with.

KotOR2: 5. No unrelated villans with a story of their own, which the PC can interact with.

 

This I don't get. Sure, KotOR has "unrelated" villains like Davik, but then what would you call Lorso, Vaklu, Tobin, Slusk or Azkul in TSL?

 

KotOR1: 6. One Major Villan.

KotOR2: 6. One Major Villan.

 

KotOR1: 6. One Major Villain, who was incredibly cheesy.

KotOR2: 6. Three major villains of which at least two were scary and manipulative and none were cheesy. Actually four villains, when counting Atris.

 

KotOR1: 7. PC/NPCs that create personal connections with the PC.

KotOR2: 7. PC/NPCs do not create personal connections with PC.

 

KotOR1: 7. PC/NPCs create personal connections only by level advancement and nothing else.

KotOR2: 7. PC/NPCs create personal connections both by building influence and gaining experience.

 

KotOR1: 8. Jedi Training on Dantooine.

KotOR2: 8. Jedi / Sith Training on the Road.

 

KotOR1: 8. Jedi Training in enclave so uninteresting the game insists on doing it in flashbacks so that we're not bored to tears.

KotOR2: 8. Jedi/Sith training by a jedimaster who actually challenges your beliefs, forces you to consider some hard questions, and places you in some difficult situations.

 

KotOR1: 9. Sith Training on Korriban.

 

KotOR1: 9. Sith Training on Korriban.

KotOR2: Sith training by experience.

 

KotOR1: 10. Choose a light or dark side path, which dictates the endgame result.

KotOR2: 9. Choose a light or dark side path, which dictates the endgame dialogue result.

 

KotOR1: 10. Choose a light or dark side path, which dictates the fate of Bastila and the Starforge and whether you're a villain or a hero

KotOR2: 9. Choose a light or dark side path, which dictates the destruction or survival of an entire planet and whether you go on to fight a new battle against evil as a hero or gets to be the evil teacher of a Sith academy.

 

KotOR1: 11. You can kill your PC/NPC.

KotOR2: 10. You can not kill your PC/NPC. Unless you are Kreia

 

KotOR1: 11. PC can be killed if you're stupid, NPCs if you're evil and murder them

KotOR2: 10. PC can be killed if you're stupid, one NPC (Visas) can be killed through sacrifice, while the rest suffer from cut content syndrome.

 

KotOR1: 12. Vast worlds that stretch forever.

KotOR2: 11. Claustrophobic worlds.

 

KotOR1: 12. Very small worlds that try in vain to appear large and so run contrary to the mood.

KotOR2: 11. Small worlds in a game that builds on the mood of claustrophobia and so uses the world limits to enhance the mood.

 

KotOR1: 13. NPCs with personal issues, which have independant storyarchs.

KotOR2: 12. One possible NPC with a personal issue, which is not a independant storyarch. Handmaiden.

 

KotOR1: 13. NPCs with personal issues, which have very limited storyarcs.

KotOR2: 12. NPCs with personal issues, of which some have very limited storyarcs, while they are more complex for others.

 

KotOR1: 14. Several Minor Villans: Dark Jedi Masters.

KotOR2: 13. Two Minor Villans: Nhihlis and Sion.

 

KotOR1: 14. Many minor villains, such as Bandon (a mindless force brute with no agenda or known motives beyond being a complete jerk), Uthar (who is somewhat interesting), Davik Kang (not very original crime boss), Calo Nord (an interesting but extremely unoriginal bounty-hunter) and scores of nameless dark jedi, who seem to exist mostly to supply the PC with extra lightsabers.

KotOR2: 13. Numerous minor villains, such as Vaklu (a corrupt general wanting to be king), Tobin (his untrustworthy colonel), Slusk (a local exchange boss), Luxa (his treacherous subordinate), Goto (the exchange crime boss, who can join the party), Visquis (his treacherous lieutenant), Saquesh (slave overseer of Nar Shaddaa), Azkul (mercenary leader on Dantooine), Lorso (Czerka chief on Telos), Samhan (black marketeer on Telos)...

 

KotOR1: 15. Cinematic Engame (Clear and Exciting Ending.)

KotOR2: 14. Dialogue Ending (Boring and Anti-Climatic Ending.)

 

KotOR1: 15. Cinematic "We save the galaxy" or "We rule the galaxy" endings so extreme that must inevitably be undone by the next game.

KotOR2: 14. Subtle endings that has big revelations and set the stage for the next game.

 

KotOR1: 16. A massive amount of information about Sith and Jedi history.

KotOR2: 15. Most of the history covered in KotOR II was a repeate of KotOR I.

 

KotOR1: 16. Massive rehashed history already covered in the Tales of the Jedi comic books and one war to set up the big revelation about 70% through the game.

KotOR2: 15. Lots of history, particularly about the three Sith Lords, whom you did not hear about in the last game. More rehash of the Tales of the Jedi comic books, though less so than in the last game.

 

KotOR1: 17. Madalorian history is also covered.

KotOR2: 16. Game was not drentched with Sith and Jedi History.

 

KotOR1: 17. Mandalorian history told only from biased source (Canderous).

KotOR2: 16. Mandalore's take on history questioned by Bao-Dur. Vast expansion on Mandalorian Wars and Revan's goals and motives in it.

 

KotOR1: 18. Star Wars Style Music.

KotOR2: 17. Practically No Star Wars Style Music. Unless you earn a light or darkside point.

 

KotOR1: 18. Practially no Star Wars music, except in very few cases.

KotOR2: 17. Practially no Star Wars music, except in very few cases.

 

KotOR1: 19. Game completed in 40 hours.

KotOR2: 18. Game completed in 27 hours.

 

KotOR1: 19. Game drags on endlessly despite setting the level cap at 20.

KotOR2: 18. Game lets you finish fast or slow and has a level cap of 50, which you're unlikely to get to.

 

KotOR1: 20. Ancient antiquity feeling that reminds people of the Medievil time period.

[/Quote]

 

KotOR1: 20. Game plays completely on the mood of the original trilogy.

KotOR2: Game tries to create a darker mood with a more original plot with overtones from gothic horror, which is rare in Star Wars.

 

KotOR1: 21. Ending has a finite resolution.

KotOR2: 19. Ending gets lost in dialogue.

 

KotOR1: 21. Ending has finite resolution, which must inevitably be undone by the next game.

KotOR2: 19. Ending is hurt by cut content, but avoids resolutions that would need to be undone by the next game.

 

KotOR1: 22. Climatic Revelation Endgame.

KotOR1: 22. Climatic Revelation: You are Revan.

KotOR2: 20. Anti-Climatic Revelation: You are an Echo.

 

KotOR1: 22. Climactic Endgame with ultimate victory for good or evil, and which must therefore be undone subsequently.

KotOR1: 22. Anti-climactic Revelation about 70% through the game: You're Revan whether you like it or not.

KotOR2: 20. Controversial but bold revelation: You are a wound in the force, which has terrible implications.

 

Good and bad things either way, but all in all, TSL does better in the long run.

[The Source]

Also see the new edits in my previous post.

 

"Ending is hurt by cut content, but avoids resolutions that would need to be undone by the next game." - Jediphile

Cut Content? What a lousy excuse for making a horrible game. Yeah. I understand they have cut content, but that information didn't make it into the final product. Its like saying, "Here is half the movie. Someone else will add the scenes that are missing. Thank you for your money." Tough cookies. Get over it. What I ended up playing is what came in the box. If the elements were important to the story, Obsidian should have gone to great legnth to fix the issue.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Awe. Did I get some people upset? **sniff-sniff-sniff** What I like about these forums is that you can express your opinions openly.

 

oh, sry MacCorp, i was acting too mean in the last post. sry again!

[The Source]

oh, sry MacCorp, i was acting too mean in the last post. sry again!

Hehehe... I like reading about other people's opinions. Sometimes it opens your mind to something new. People have interesting perspective. We are all correct from certain points of view.

[Jediphile]

Also see the new edits in my previous post.

 

"Ending is hurt by cut content, but avoids resolutions that would need to be undone by the next game." - Jediphile

Cut Content? What a lousy excuse for making a horrible game. Yeah. I understand they have cut content, but that information didn't make it into the final product. Its like saying, "Here is half the movie. Someone else will add the scenes that are missing. Thank you for your money." Tough cookies. Get over it.

 

I have not denied that. It certainly detracts from the final product. But in the spirit of being the devil's advocate, I still don't see how that makes TSL worse in the final analysis. Yes, it's a minus for the game, but then so what - KotOR has its own share of bad points as well, which can easily be seen to outweigh those of TSL.

 

What I ended up playing is what came in the box. If the elements were important to the story, Obsidian should have gone to great legnth to fix the issue.

 

To be fair - Obisidian DID want to do a content patch for TSL, but LA wouldn't allow it.

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?p=2192825#post2192825

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=32918&st=120

[The Source]

I have not denied that. It certainly detracts from the final product. But in the spirit of being the devil's advocate, I still don't see how that makes TSL worse in the final analysis. Yes, it's a minus for the game, but then so what - KotOR has its own share of bad points as well, which can easily be seen to outweigh those of TSL.

 

 

 

To be fair - Obisidian DID want to do a content patch for TSL, but LA wouldn't allow it.

If I remember correctly, the writter also went on record. He said he didn't buy into the story himself, and he couldn't believe everyone bought into it either. That doesn't sound like someone who is worried about cut content.

[Pavlos]

If I remember correctly, the writter also went on record. He said he didn't buy into the story himself, and he couldn't believe everyone bought into it either. That doesn't sound like someone who is worried about cut content.

 

To be honest, that would be incredibly unprofessional and highly unlikely. I cannot imagine the game's main writer (Chris Avellone) saying that he didn't like the plot... he came up with it in the first place and he can also be quoted as saying that though TSL has its flaws, he still thinks it is a good RPG.

[Jediphile]

If I remember correctly, the writter also went on record. He said he didn't buy into the story himself, and he couldn't believe everyone bought into it either. That doesn't sound like someone who is worried about cut content.

 

Try reading the links. Dashus points to posts on the Obsidian boards by John Morgan, who was a developer at the time of posting. He says there that the content patch was rejected and the subject closed.

 

Of course, since it appears to have been a single-day patch, not much may have changed, but it still demonstrates a willingness from Obsidian to patch TSL, which LA would not allow.

 

But I doubt Obsidian wants this particular can of worms opened again. According to recent news, Feargus Urquhart is STILL trying to convince LA to give K3 the green light, in which case dragging out sore history and bad blood might not be very prudent. So I doubt Obsidian will have much to say on this, since doing so can really only hurt their chances of doing K3.

[The Source]

Try reading the links. Dashus points to posts on the Obsidian boards by John Morgan, who was a developer at the time of posting. He says there that the content patch was rejected and the subject closed.

 

Of course, since it appears to have been a single-day patch, not much may have changed, but it still demonstrates a willingness from Obsidian to patch TSL, which LA would not allow.

 

But I doubt Obsidian wants this particular can of worms opened again. According to recent news, Feargus Urquhart is STILL trying to convince LA to give K3 the green light, in which case dragging out sore history and bad blood might not be very prudent. So I doubt Obsidian will have much to say on this, since doing so can really only hurt their chances of doing K3.

Who cares about what Obsidian wants. As a consumer and independant thinker, I don't need to worry about the feelings of the game developer. I don't work for them, nor do I care if they are in buisness in the next four years. Obsidian can fade into oblivion, and I wouldn't shead a tear.

 

Content patch does not mean 'cut content' patch. They are two different things. If John Morgan could't convince Lucas Arts to do a patch, that would be his own failure to be persuasive. One could only wonder if there is more to the story, which we don't know about. Who knows.

 

Since I am drawing my conclusions based upon what I originally played out of the box, I truely believe that KotoR II is a horrible game.

 

Question:: When did Dashus become a spokes person for Obsidian? He has absolutely no connection to the game company. When you connect a game developer and publisher with a group of fans, you have an even bigger problem to deal with.

 

I am all for Obsidian not doing a 'KotOR III', for they will create another horrible story with meaningless and emotionless banter.

[Melly]

18. Star Wars Style Music.

17. Practically No Star Wars Style Music. Unless you earn a light or darkside point.

 

I find it incredibly funny that people say that K1 had "Star Wars style music" since I heard the exact same music in Neverwinter Nights that I did on Korriban. Also a lot of the music in K2, especially that that plays on Dxun, sounds almost exactly like the music that plays when the Federation ships are landing on Naboo in The Phantom Menace.

 

19. Game completed in 40 hours.

18. Game completed in 27 hours.

I don't know about you but it took me 30+ hours to complete both games. But then I stop and talk to almost everyone, even the "filler" people that just walk around an area, like the people on Taris & Tatooine in K1 and those on Onderon & Nar Shaddaa in K2. You learn interesting things this way. Like on Dantooine in K1 one of the Jedi says that the Sith torture Jedi prisoners into embracing the DS. Sounds a lot like what Atton used to do, doesn't it?

 

KotOR2: 3. PC/NPCs that finally shut up and talk only when you feel like it, and whom you must work your influence with to get them to open rather than just wait for the next level of experience.

Ah yes. This is something that always bothered me about K1. In that you can be a total jerk to say Juhani for example, and she'll still tell you her story after you've leveled up again. Like she would tell me about one of the most humiliating times of her life (being a slave) after I'd mocked her, called her a freak etc only to be mocked again? I don't think so.

 

Also something that bugged me was that there was no confrontation between Juhani and Canderous in the first game. She does talk about him, but only in the cut content (and granted she does say she's been avoiding him, but they'd have to be in the same room at some time, yes?). This is something I really liked about the TSL, the confrontation between Bao-Dur and Mandalore. It's more realistic, that all your companions don't get along.

[mjpb3]

I mean no offense by this but, if you've played other BioWare games you'd see that the characters in KotOR aren't all that authentic. At least Carth and Bastila aren't. Carth reminds of me of Valen (and just for the record I like Valen better).

Actually, I found Carth to be very similar to Valen, but I wouldn't call Carth a carbon copy of Valen. IMHO Carth has way more depth to his character than Valen does.

 

And for the record, I still like Carth best

 

 

I prefer the Sith Lords and the reason being is that in almost every EU book of the Star Wars galaxy that I've read there's some big bad villian with a big bad super weapon and to see that annoying trend repeated in K1 really grates.

Well, yes, um, you know it is still the Star Wars universe and some things are practically expected to be present in the Star Wars universe, or else we'd be playing Final Fantasy, right?

 

 

Having Revan forced on me kind of annoyed me. It ruined all the background information I had made up for her (my PC) before the Leviathan.

But, see, that is the beauty of KotOR. You can either be Revan or you can continue to be the mind-wiped version of Revan--which is still your PC, with everything you created about her still there. Just because she's Revan didn't change that for me. Actually, finding out my PC was Revan very much enhanced her story for me.

 

I liked Revan far more than Exile because I got to know about Revan. With Exile, it's like you got dropped in on the middle of her story without anyone filling you in on the details.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Exile far more now than I used to because the gameplay of K2 was so horrendous for me, but now that I've spent a little more time walking in Exile's shoes, I like her more than I did.

 

Though I still like Revan and her story better and always will.

 

-----

 

Oh, and as far as everyone saying Malak was cheesy--yeah, he may have been cheesy, but he was still one tough hombre to beat. And at least with Malak what you dreaded, expected, feared--him being a tough fight--was delivered.

 

In K2, I expected the villain battles to be tough, but boy, was I wrong!

[Melly]

Actually, I found Carth to be very similar to Valen, but I wouldn't call Carth a carbon copy of Valen.

Never said he was a carbon copy of Valen. I said Carth reminded me of Valen. I did however say that Bastila was a carbon copy of Aribeth (or pretty close).

 

And for the record, I still like Carth best

Glad you like him. I played Carth before Valen, and I liked Valen better. It might be because Valen and the PC are still a couple, something I don't see happening for Revan regardless of gender. Or that Valen appeals more to me personally. Or may be it's because he has horns.

[mjpb3]

Never said he was a carbon copy of Valen. I said Carth reminded me of Valen. I did however say that Bastila was a carbon copy of Aribeth (or pretty close).

Oops! I read that completely wrong didn't I?

 

 

Or may be it's because he has horns.

Nah, it's the tail.

[The Architect]

I am all for Obsidian not doing a 'KotOR III', for they will create another horrible story with meaningless and emotionless banter.

 

How the flying {eh you know what} do you know? What are you a prophet or something? Another horrible story with meaningless and emotionless banter? Pfft, what a load of ---. I mean seriously. You like KotOR more than TSL? Fair enough. TSL has a horrible plot with meaningless and emotionless banter? What the crap?

 

Look, games are often subjugated to subjective views whether they are necessary or not, correct? Anyhow, whatever the case, in my subjective view, TSL was an awesome game that kicked the crap out of KotOR, even in the condition it was released in.

 

Maybe it’s because I like games that work more like novels than they do umm…as games, or films. I mean, I guess that’s why I hardly ever play video games, because games like TSL that appeal to me are just rare, am I right?

 

Anyway, you on the other hand, have a very different subjective view on TSL. You hate it. But here’s the thing: when several people have the same subjective view on something, some people are going to perceive it as fact, and while that’s wrong because the bottom line is it’s still a subjective opinion and not a fact, no matter how many people agree, if my opinion was in the vast minority, I would question whether my judgment is misguided or biased or what not, and the majority are actually “on to something” or “have a point”.

 

It’s like for example if I insisted that I wasn’t gay, but the vast majority of people that I know think I am based on observations they’ve made or whatever. I mean, what if they’re right? Yeah this is probably a poor example I know.

 

Anyhow, I was under the impression that TSL was a highly successful game with reviewers and the public. It must be doing something right to get such positive recognition from most people, right?

 

It wasn’t as critically successful as KotOR (mainly due to the cut content and the almost unplayable condition of the game) but either way, I’ve heard that TSL scored 8 out of 10 and above from most professional reviewers. Again, it must be doing something right, right? Why else would the game get good scores?

 

Same as KotOR I guess. I mean, I thought the plot was derivative and pretty ordinary, and almost all of the characters were uninteresting and one-dimensional, and the plot twist wasn’t a surprise for me because I picked up I’d have to say nearly all the clues (and there were a lot) before the revelation.

 

But still, I liked the game. Why? Because my character had dialogue choices. And I always liked the Star Wars films as a kid. I went off it for a few years because I how could you say; grew out of it. Episode I and Episode II didn’t help either. Bah! I’ll stop right there. I’m going into a rambling about my past again.

 

Yeah anyway, I loved those dialogue choices. It made me connect with the game really well. Uh, you get what I mean, right? The point is, I do believe the plot and the characters in KotOR are immensely overrated, yet I still loved the game.

 

The point I'm trying to make is, while you've made it clear that you hate TSL, you haven't given any reasons that would convince anyone that TSL sucks. You might think otherwise, but you haven’t.

 

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I can’t say I’m a fan of people who trash a game, or anything, without explaining why they hate it. Sure you’ve explained why, but you’ve failed to convince at least me that you’re right that there was meaningless and emotionless banter in TSL, that the characters were lame and poorly written, that the plot was horrible and the game was anti-climatic (well I admit, it was at the latter stages of the game).

 

I already explained why I like TSL more than KotOR in this thread (I added a bit more to it at the Obsidian forum). I might add some more to my rambling:

 

More ramblings about KotOR from me*

 

Ask Master Vandar about Malak and he'll tell you that hate and vengeance for his master's death' are driving Malak down the Dark Side. Umm...what? Malak was the one who tried to kill Revan.

 

The Sith are supposed to be hunting Bastila tirelessly, and yet you can wander freely about Taris with Bastila in your party holding a double-bladed lightsaber right past Sith troopers without them batting an eyelash. What’s up with that?

 

And why is it that none of the Sith on Korriban recognize you as Revan? Come on! It’s not like Korriban didn’t have any high ranking Sith who you’d think would recognize the ex-Dark Lord of the Sith! Or what, did Revan wear that mask all the time?

 

If you play fully DS in KotOR, you go around lying, stealing, murdering, and maiming, then on the Rakatan planet, your party acts all surprised when you screw them over. Huh? Shouldn’t they not be surprised? Well, I think Carth says he saw it coming, but that’s about it.

 

And what about the cheesy LS ending? I mean, celebrating is all well and good but I think there should’ve been a moment of introspection on Vandar's and Revan's part on how Revan's actions led to the Jedi Civil War and all that jazz, and if he/she felt sorry that Malak could not be redeemed or not. Also, it would’ve been interesting if you could’ve had a conversation with the Council about what they did to you after the celebration as part of the ending.

 

When you and whoever two party members you take with you “clean out” the Sith base and steal the launch codes, you’re supposed to go to the Lower City cantina and give the launch codes to Canderous.

 

So naturally you head off to the elevator to the Lower City, which is only about 30m from the Sith base you just raided! And the Sith trooper guarding the elevator doesn’t even bat an eyelash. What’s up with that? He just acts like nothing has happened.

 

Malak should’ve been way harder to beat on the Leviathan. The scenario would have worked better if Bastila's interference had been prompted by you being beaten to the point of death instead of the other way around.

 

They should have made Malak virtually impossible to beat for someone of your level, but as it stood after that fight you felt both cheated out of a victory by Bastila's idiotic meddling and felt nothing but contempt for the threat posed by Malak. If I've already effortlessly crushed the end boss well before the climax of the game, why, precisely, am I worried about facing him later on?

 

Another thing too is, at the beginning of KotOR, the Endar Spire is getting shot down over Taris and Bastila, Revan and Carth make it out at the last minute in escape pods. So, why were they there in the first place?

 

Why would the Republic send a single frigate with the two keys to its entire war effort through an area which apparently was occupied and controlled by the Sith? Where were they going before the Sith ambushed them, and how would they have set Revan up for training and put him/her on his’/her 'quest' without the apparent justification of his/her successful actions on Taris?

 

Another thing that bugged me about KotOR was their portrayal of evil, as I’ve said earlier. The villains are made so brutal, so malicious....not just in their actions, but in their everyday conversation....that it's impossible to take them seriously.

 

Look at the Sith characters you meet. Every last one of them is bullying, arrogant, obnoxious, and apparently without any redeeming qualities. Now, at the highest levels; Mr. Cheese (Darth Malak), this makes sense.

 

He is a Sith Lord, dedicated to personal power at the expense of everyone else. But shouldn't the lower ranks have some ideal motivating them beyond pure power lust and cruelty? One quickly begins to wonder just how the Sith manage to find recruits when their only ideal is “Let's conquer the galaxy and be mean to people.”

 

There was hardly a single line uttered by the villains which wasn't dedicated to showing how evil and nasty they are. You couldn't sympathize with them in the least because they were made so purposefully unsympathetic. The only exception was Yuthura Ban, a well written character who had motive beyond the stereotypical “Let's conquer the galaxy and be mean to people.”

 

I mean, KotOR had to deal with something the Star Wars films never did; the character could walk up and chat with your average Sith trooper. The character got to hear precisely why they were doing what they were doing, what they believed they were fighting for and so on.

 

Given that, go back to the films. The original trilogy that is. Do you remember any Stormtroopers or Imperial officers talking, at length, about why they supported the Empire? Not really.

 

Mostly, it was pure business. Even with Darth Vader and the Emperor, dialogue spoken with no purpose but to show how evil they were was the exception rather than the rule. As such, one could hold to the view that some of the people fighting for the Empire had reasons for doing so that made sense.

 

Not so with KotOR. When you talk to the majority of Sith, their reasons don't extend much beyond “Malak will make you weakling Republics suffer, and subjugate this pathetic galaxy beneath the power of the Sith!”

 

That's not a very good explanation of why they're willing to fight and die for the cause. In fact, it's downright lame. The Sith can represent evil without having every last Sith trooper long only to kick puppies and launch children into orbit unprotected.

 

At least TSL didn’t repeat the same mistake KotOR did with the crappy, childish portrayal of evil.

 

Did you see this in TSL?

 

Kreia: “When the last of the Jedi is gone, there will be nothing to stop us from crushing the Republic and conquering the galaxy!” {Cackling laughter}

 

Did you see that from Sion, or Nihilus? No, because while yes, they all shared the same goal of destroying the Jedi (well, it seems that Kreia had beef with just the Masters) Sion wasn’t trying to destroy the Republic and rule the galaxy, nor was Nihilus.

 

To put short and simply: the villains in TSL were more original (at least for Star Wars anyway) and interesting.

 

Okay, that’s enough from me…for now. I think some people are giving KotOR a little too much credit. It's far from flawless.

[Jediphile]

Who cares about what Obsidian wants. As a consumer and independant thinker, I don't need to worry about the feelings of the game developer. I don't work for them, nor do I care if they are in buisness in the next four years. Obsidian can fade into oblivion, and I wouldn't shead a tear.

 

You'll forgive us if there are those of us who do not share your opinion on the matter. I suppose I should make some harsh jab against Bioware's idea of "Disney Star Wars" now just to even the scale, but I think I'll pass...

 

Content patch does not mean 'cut content' patch. They are two different things. If John Morgan could't convince Lucas Arts to do a patch, that would be his own failure to be persuasive. One could only wonder if there is more to the story, which we don't know about. Who knows.

 

So basically, if someone doesn't get to have things their way, then it's always their own fault and never anyone else's? Sorry, but that makes no sense to me.

 

Besides, you have no idea how hard Obsidian pushed for such a patch (and nor do I), so there is no basis for that conclusion that I can see.

 

Since I am drawing my conclusions based upon what I originally played out of the box, I truely believe that KotoR II is a horrible game.

 

And you're entitled to your opinion, but it's still just personal taste. You may not like TSL, but there are certainly people here who do. Is your opinion better than theirs? You can give whatever reasons you like, people can still give reasons why they think you're wrong. I did, and I'm not even an absolute TSL-fanatic. I actually think that KotOR was a better game because it was finished, but I also think that TSL had a better and stronger plot and characters. That doesn't make my opinion any better or "more right" than yours, though. Because you cannot prove that KotOR is better than TSL or vice versa, since it's a matter of taste, and so any attempt is pointless. You can say why you think one game is better than the other, but that's all you can really do, and people can and will disagree with you, because they liked things that you hated and hated things you liked. We might just as well discuss whether Star Trek is better than Star Wars, whether D&D 3.Xe is better than AD&D 2e, which ice-cream flavour is better or whether Bush has done a good or a bad job. They are all undead topics, because they can never reach any meaningful conclusion. Discussions like that can define good and bad points about something, but that's about it.

 

Question:: When did Dashus become a spokes person for Obsidian? He has absolutely no connection to the game company. When you connect a game developer and publisher with a group of fans, you have an even bigger problem to deal with.

 

Obviously Dashus is not a spokesperson for Obsidian. Where did you get that from? To my knowledge he knows nobody at Obsidian. He just pointed out that a game developer revealed this on the board. What's wrong with doing that?

 

I am all for Obsidian not doing a 'KotOR III', for they will create another horrible story with meaningless and emotionless banter.

 

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, even though I think it's completely baseless.

[The Architect]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, even though I think it's completely baseless.

 

I agree with you 100%. How unusual, I’m agreeing with you. That’s the problem I have with MacCorp: his opinions are baseless. It’s almost like trolling. It’s like:

 

“Obsidian sucks, TSL had a crap story and crap writing. It was anti-climatic, Obsidian can't write a story for crap, KotOR III will suck if they make it and blah blah blah etc etc.”

 

Sure, he’s entitled to say things like that, but what’s it all based on? What convincing reasons for his opinion has he given? None, as far as I can tell. Yeah sure, he doesn’t have to, but naturally fans of TSL such as me are going to ask the question of for example WHAT exactly he’s referring to when he says “meaningless and emotionless banter” and WHY it actually is.

 

To me it’s just like saying “Bob Marley sang nothing but meaningless and emotionless banter.” I wonder if he’ll accuse me of “taking things out of context” without proving that I did like last time again. {Insert missing shifty smilie}

[Jediphile]

While The Sith Lords was generally viewed by gaming journalists as just another sequel that didn't live up to the standards set by its' predecessor, I would have to say I really disagree. Woe be to me to question the judgment of such highly skilled professionals, but I really think they just weren't intelligent enough to understand the game's subdued, yet morally complex, plot which culminated in a duel with the woman who is almost solely responsible for your own salvation.

 

Obviously you're entitled to question them and disagree with their opinions.

 

I do think I perceive one flaw in your conclusion, though, in that it seems to be based on the notion that those gaming journalists played TSL 100% to the end. Given how long it takes to play through TSL, I find that unlikely. TSL generally received positive remarks and comments, which suggests to me that few or nobody played the game until the confrontation on Dantooine. In fact, I doubt many played much further than past Telos, which would allow them to zip back and forth between most of the planets in the game.

 

Don't forget - today gaming reviews are mostly online, and deadlines are everything in journalism. Getting the story out before everyone else is paramount! In gaming journalism the same is true for reviews - if you can publish your review before the competing gaming-media, then you've done good, because your review will be read by more people on account of simple being there, while the competition's has not yet become available. Add to that the fact that writing badly about a game is likely to get you excluded from inside stories or interviews with the game developer/publisher, and the incentive to do a thorough review that points out all the pros and - especially - the cons becomes rather limited, I'd say. No, I'm not saying gaming journalists are in the pocket of the industry. But some "collaborate" more than others, and they are all aware that they need to continue being good ambassadors for their magazine/whatever and so need to be civil and keep good relationships in the business. And naturally some are better at doing that without compromising their integrity than others.

[Melly]

Nah, it's the tail.

Um, well you see I have this thing for men with horns... Have I mentioned how much I love Bao-Dur recently?

 

IMHO, TSL was a wonderful game right up until Malachor and then it fell apart. I still like it better though than K1, even with all it's faults.

[The Architect]

Actually Jediphile, it wasn’t me who said that. If the character limit for signatures was just a little longer, I would’ve put:

 

-Some gaming critic

 

My signature is part of a quote of some gaming journalist. SilentScope001 posted it on some thread on this forum.

 

You’re right that I assume that all gaming journalists played TSL all the way through. I mean, I’ve only read a few reviews of TSL, but all of them complain about the rushed, anti-climatic feel of the game at the latter stages, which suggests to me that they played all the way through to the end.

 

That, plus the fact that I’ve always believed that in order to review a video game, you have to have played all the way through it (just like you have to watch the whole movie before you review it) is why I’m of that notion, but you’ve convinced me (you convincing me is nothing unusual) that it may not be the case.

 

[Jediphile]

Actually Jediphile, it wasn’t me who said that. If the character limit for signatures was just a little longer, I would’ve put:

 

-Some gaming critic

 

My signature is part of a quote of some gaming journalist. SilentScope001 posted it on some thread on this forum.

 

 

My bad

[The Architect]

My bad

 

Hey, I can’t blame you for assuming I wrote that, given how articulate that was.

[The Source]

(...snip...quote with moderation...)

 

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I can’t say I’m a fan of people who trash a game, or anything, without explaining why they hate it. Sure you’ve explained why, but you’ve failed to convince at least me that you’re right that there was meaningless and emotionless banter in TSL, that the characters were lame and poorly written, that the plot was horrible and the game was anti-climatic (well I admit, it was at the latter stages of the game).

Look, you're just ticked off that someone has a different opinion about KotOR II than you do. I would hate it if I had the same opinion as the majority. If we were all the same, our world would be similar to the one in "Fahrenheit 451". Personally, I take great pride in my opinion, and I respect your thoughts about KotOR II.

 

When it comes to voicing my opinion, I don't have a responsibility to up hold. These forums were built upon opinions, and I will not hold back on my thoughts. If I believe something is pathetically horrible, I am going to voice my opinion about the matter. As long as I don't break the forum rules, I can continue to exercise my freedoms. Period.

 

No one chalanges these companies. Why? Because they are too busy looking for a sequel. People are afraid to tell how they really feel about KotOR II, for they believe that there will not be a KotOR III. I would send a message to Lucas Arts, "Yes, we want a sequel, but lets have one that is more intellegent, challanging, complete, and comprehensible. Come on. Care about your products, and we will care about you."

[Jediphile]

No one chalanges these companies. Why? Because they are too busy looking for a sequel. People are afraid to tell how they really feel about KotOR II, for they believe that there will not be a KotOR III. I would send a message to Lucas Arts, "Yes, we want a sequel, but lets have one that is more intellegent, challanging, complete, and comprehensible. Come on. Care about your products, and we will care about you."

 

Given how much The Architect, definitely myself, and probably others here have been on LA's case for the sorry state TSL ended up in, I don't think that's a very convincing argument. I have certainly blamed them for what happened and posted links support it on numerous occasions both here on the Obsidian boards, when I still posted there.

 

TSL was not well implemented due to the rushed schedule, but the plot and characters were still golden - I cannot fault Obsidian for that. The blame for how it ended up lies with LA.

 

You don't need to be shy with your opinion. You just have to respect that other people don't always agree with you, and that they don't do so because they're just plain wrong.

[The Source]

@-The Architect:

I think I was very clear in my explinations. Even though I added some ranting, I did focus on specifics in both of my posts. One post was an outline, and the second cleared up what I had mentioned. If I were to except 'KotOR II' as the better of the two, I would be telling Lucas Arts that:

 

1. I love games with incomprehensible banter.

2. You can sell me a buggy game any old day, and I will nievely buy into your advertising.

3. Its okay to make flawed games. As long as you have my money, you can count on me to be a whipping boy.

4. The story was very well written, and I like boring, dull, and anoying characters.

 

When it comes to Obsidian: One cannot dismiss NWN2. Even though there are interesting things going on in the game, I can still see the same mistakes being made. They just don't listen to fans. Period.

 

'KotOR I' was the superior game overall. Clean, professionally finished, comprehensible, and Star Wars style from beginning to end.

 

'KotOR II' was a failure all around. Yes, I do like the new influence concept, but that alone doesn't do justice to the game.

(If you are new to the conversation, please look slightly back at the posts that preceed this one.)