Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?

[Emperor Devon]

O_o what!? where'd you hear that? is that true!? could you give some kind of proof pls?

 

"The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good." - Palpatine in Episode I

 

It seems obvious enough to me the Senate isn't a shining light of democracy... From what's said in KotOR I, large corporations like Czerka are not policed, racism is tolerated, (the Senate made no attempt to curb that on Taris) planets can be enslaved as companies see fit, (Kashyyk) hell, even with public projects as large as the Telos one the Senate allows organizations like Czerka and the Exchange to meddle in them.

 

And that's not even getting into all the statements made by Goto, various other NPCs and characters in the EU about what a joke the Senate is...

 

also, IMO alot of people in this world think politicians are corrupt, but few are. if you ask me that's just people's nature to blame leaders and have excessive paranoia. people love the "conspiracy theory".

 

The real world is completely irrelevant to this debate. We're talking about George Lucas' world, in which he decided that the main government in it would be riddled with corruption.

 

if they weren't reliable, then why would he/she risk making war and losing his/her soul over a gamble like that?

 

What Jediphile said...

 

again, if it's good proof (which it most probably is) it should definitely at least convince open minded jedi like Vandar. can you ignore a sith threat standing in the republic's porch?

 

Hiding in the bushes and trees fifty feet away from the porch, more like... Supposing the true Sith are the remnants of the old Sith Empire, they're supposed to have been dead for a thousand years. If they're something else the Republic likely has never encountered them before... You'd need quite a bit in the way of evidence to prove that.

 

I would advise looking further in the various dark side-related taboos the Jedi have sometime. Showing one of them (especially a Master) evidence gleaned from a Sith holocron or something else equally Sithy and nefarious would be the equivalent of showing Hitler proof gleaned from a Jew.

 

Personally I think evidence gotten from Sith sources would be believable, but most Jedi would disagree.

 

of course, i think we all have to agree that it being the best strategic choice doesn't make it any more honorable to kill a whack of people on your side...

 

If I may quote a particularly witty comment on that...

 

"Yeah, honor. That and a silver will get you a hunk of cheese."

 

look, i know Wookiepedia isn't foolproof, but i'm a bit lazy to pull the game out and play that part right now, so cut me some slack.

 

As long as Wookieepedia's article is accurate.

 

"fed on the power of the Force, drawing particularly from the cruel Rakata." since the Rakata are kinda ds,

 

Kind of DS? I would say otherwise. They enslaved about one trillion people, conquered civilizations rather than help them advanced, and were willing to bomb worlds into slag at the sign of resistance, never mind the lives lost in the process. Very DS IMO.

 

this translates to "fed on the power of the force, drawing particularly from the dark side". right?

 

I disagree.

 

The living superweapon began corrupting the hearts of the Rakata in order to gain the immense power it required to operate itself.

 

This says nothing at all about whether the Forge was capable of producing anything without the dark side. If anything, that the Forge would require dark side power to run itself would seem to imply it needs that to operate.

 

This is a rather silly issue to debate IMO, and a moot one. The Rakatan computer in the Temple of the Ancients tells you directly that the Star Forge needs to the dark side to operate, and will not operate when there is none. What more proof do you need?

 

okay, so they need to be stong willed. out of many thousand jedi there are definitely some that are quite strong willed.

 

Some, but not many. When Malak and Revan both stopped using the Star Forge it no longer had enough energy to operate, as Goto and Bastila said. Don't you think that in an organization as vast as the Sith Empire they'd have lieutenants, and other Sith Lords and Masters? I'd guess so, but apparently they were not strong enough. Only Revan and Malak appeared able to make the thing run.

 

The only other figures I think who could make the Forge run would be Kreia. After she killed three of the High Council members in several seconds I wouldn't put much faith in their abilities. Perhaps Vandar could, but neither game gives us much insight into how strong he was.

 

some jedi can be the same thing, very short life batteries. they should still be able to use it for short amounts of time if they're pretty strong willed,

 

The Forge I think can use all Force-users as fuel, but how much it can produce is another matter. Bastila says that the post-Revan Sith Lords/Masters tried to tap into the Forge but had their lives completely drained away and mentions nothing about ships being produced. My theory is that it tried to tap into their power to make itself run, but was unable to get anything out of them and eventually tried to drain more energy than they possessed (which resulted in their deaths).

 

i don't think you have to be as strong as Revan or Malak to use it. not every Rakata was a force god, but they still got it to work.

 

Because they didn't let every Rakata use it, I'd guess. In an empire as vast as theirs there was probably a Force god or two.

 

if there's good proof, instead of everyone thinking Revan a moron,

 

I'm not sure if you quite understand the power politicians let alone entire governments have over these sorts of things. It doesn't matter how good the evidence is, because with enough propaganda you can get the (typically uninformed) masses to believe anything.

 

Look at history and you'll see countless examples (the most prominent being Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany) where governments were able to make their people disbelieve in the most reasonable of things, and believe in ideas as absurd as racism being good and cannibalism and famine being signs of prosperity. A galaxy-spanning government silencing one man over a matter no one other than him is even aware of is more than possible.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Jediphile: if Revan was ds, he/she is guilty for murdering all those people.

 

"The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good." - Palpatine in Episode I

 

It seems obvious enough to me the Senate isn't a shining light of democracy... From what's said in KotOR I, large corporations like Czerka are not policed, racism is tolerated, (the Senate made no attempt to curb that on Taris) planets can be enslaved as companies see fit, (Kashyyk) hell, even with public projects as large as the Telos one the Senate allows organizations like Czerka and the Exchange to meddle in them.

 

And that's not even getting into all the statements made by Goto, various other NPCs and characters in the EU about what a joke the Senate is...

 

ED, your quote is about 4000 years off. you're doing the equivalent of proving a scientific point using medieval alchemy. anything can happen in 4000 years.

 

Czerka isn't policed because it's too large to be policed. Taris was occupied by the sith, and there also could be other things that the senate had to attend to, they're not perfect. a neglection on one planet doesn't mean they're evil, it happens on earth all the time. also, you're forgetting that Kashyyk is one of the more remote places in the galaxy. blaming them on Kashyyk is the equivalent of claiming that the (not real, just pretend) world government is mean and corrupt because they didn't solve a dispute for a small island a bit east of Madagascar. they also allowed Czerka on Telos because it seems that they're doing good there. Czerka is hiding their corruption.

 

The real world is completely irrelevant to this debate. We're talking about George Lucas' world, in which he decided that the main government in it would be riddled with corruption.

 

...and the sw galaxy is based from? you guessed it, our planet.

 

Hiding in the bushes and trees fifty feet away from the porch, more like... Supposing the true Sith are the remnants of the old Sith Empire, they're supposed to have been dead for a thousand years. If they're something else the Republic likely has never encountered them before... You'd need quite a bit in the way of evidence to prove that.

 

I would advise looking further in the various dark side-related taboos the Jedi have sometime. Showing one of them (especially a Master) evidence gleaned from a Sith holocron or something else equally Sithy and nefarious would be the equivalent of showing Hitler proof gleaned from a Jew.

 

Personally I think evidence gotten from Sith sources would be believable, but most Jedi would disagree.

 

most jedi. and you know what? Revan didn't even try to sway the jedi. he/she just made war. okay, the proof is ds. but the fact that Revan didn't even try to warn the jedi shows that he/she didn't care. and that puts him/her at fault. who says he/she couldn't sway some jedi to help? but no. and Revan is guilty for not even trying.

 

If I may quote a particularly witty comment on that...

 

"Yeah, honor. That and a silver will get you a hunk of cheese."

 

forget about honor. i'm not talking about honor, ED, i'm talking about all the soldiers that were lost through a cold strategic choice. i think it was right, but they still deserve some kind of mention.

 

I'm not sure if you quite understand the power politicians let alone entire governments have over these sorts of things. It doesn't matter how good the evidence is, because with enough propaganda you can get the (typically uninformed) masses to believe anything.

 

Look at history and you'll see countless examples (the most prominent being Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany) where governments were able to make their people disbelieve in the most reasonable of things, and believe in ideas as absurd as racism being good and cannibalism and famine being signs of prosperity. A galaxy-spanning government silencing one man over a matter no one other than him is even aware of is more than possible.

 

you are still forgetting and still avoiding the fact that every person in the galaxy that has access to the holonet views Revan as a public hero and superstar. to put this in real life, nobody will notice John Doe getting killed, but how in the living name do you cover something like the suspicious death of Bill Gates?

 

about everything related to the star forge:

alright, everyone on the defence (ED, Jediphile) just give me a quote of the Rakata comp saying you need ds to operate, and i'll admit i'm wrong. ED, why in the world did you not say this sooner? if there is something that straight out says: "if you ain't ds, you can't use the star forge", then how can i argue that?

 

 

 

btw, i still haven't forgotten my question. i've noticed and kept note that this entire time that we've been disscussing any strategies i have that are better than Revan's. we've always been talking about how there are better ideas or alternatives to what Revan did to prove him/her guilty, but we haven't even proven him/her innocent in the first place for all of his/her crimes.

 

so again:

 

what was so great about Revan's actions and why does he/she not deserve execution for them? how did the war benefit the republic and the people?

[Jediphile]

Jediphile: if Revan was ds, he/she is guilty for murdering all those people.

 

DS Revan is guilty, yes. LS Revan committed them, but was corrupted during his attempt to save the Republic from the Mandalorians and has since redeemed himself. So even if it is decided he deserves punishment, the death sentence is too harsh.

 

ED, your quote is about 4000 years off. you're doing the equivalent of proving a scientific point using medieval alchemy. anything can happen in 4000 years.

 

I actually agree with that. Listen to HK-47's descriptions of senators in KotOR, though. It sounds very similar, somehow...

 

Czerka isn't policed because it's too large to be policed. Taris was occupied by the sith, and there also could be other things that the senate had to attend to, they're not perfect. a neglection on one planet doesn't mean they're evil, it happens on earth all the time. also, you're forgetting that Kashyyk is one of the more remote places in the galaxy. blaming them on Kashyyk is the equivalent of claiming that the (not real, just pretend) world government is mean and corrupt because they didn't solve a dispute for a small island a bit east of Madagascar. they also allowed Czerka on Telos because it seems that they're doing good there. Czerka is hiding their corruption.

 

What company doesn't? And if the senate is so pathetic that it can't see Czerka's corruption when it's as blindingly obvious as it is in KotOR, then they're either blind or corrupt themselves, and so what good are they?

 

 

most jedi. and you know what? Revan didn't even try to sway the jedi. he/she just made war. okay, the proof is ds. but the fact that Revan didn't even try to warn the jedi shows that he/she didn't care. and that puts him/her at fault. who says he/she couldn't sway some jedi to help? but no. and Revan is guilty for not even trying.

 

I don't think we actually know that Revan didn't even try. It doesn't seem like he tried to return to Coruscant to present evidence to the masters, no, but he could easily have sent a message, especially since that would not have given the masters a golden opportunity to behead him for being DS.

 

But it's probably a moot point anyway, since Revan was already DS by then and would not have listened much to what the masters had to say.

 

you are still forgetting and still avoiding the fact that every person in the galaxy that has access to the holonet views Revan as a public hero and superstar. to put this in real life, nobody will notice John Doe getting killed, but how in the living name do you cover something like the suspicious death of Bill Gates?

 

Not a particularly good example, given how that news is likely to be received in some circles

 

Suffice it to say that Revan was a hero, while Bill Gates is a controversial person at best.

 

about everything related to the star forge:

alright, everyone on the defence (ED, Jediphile) just give me a quote of the Rakata comp saying you need ds to operate, and i'll admit i'm wrong. ED, why in the world did you not say this sooner? if there is something that straight out says: "if you ain't ds, you can't use the star forge", then how can i argue that?

 

I'll have to let Emperor Devon answer that, since I don't have KotOR (or TSL for that matter) installed on my system at the moment.

 

what was so great about Revan's actions and why does he/she not deserve execution for them? how did the war benefit the republic and the people?

 

Revan prevented the core of the Republic from becoming a complacent and stagnant beast. Not that this excuses his actions - Revan did wrong - but there are extenuating circumstances. And Revan did make one big and fatal mistake - like Ulic he thought he could control the dark side and use it as a weapon. Essentially he tried to use the dark side as you suggest the jedi could use the Starforge. Darth Revan is what the jedi would have become if they had tried (so it's probably good they never got the chance).

 

Also, Revan's choices were forced by the inactivity of the jedi council. Although Bastila tells us they would have acted against the Mandalorians in the end, that still would have left the Republic shattered and defenseless against the true Sith. Not to mention how many lives the jedi would have thrown away by then.

 

I'm not saying Revan didn't do bad things, but I insist that he was not alone in being wrong, and that his position was forced by the inactivity of others. The Mandalorian Wars cost Revan his soul, so you cannot just look at then numbers and say, "Revan killed x number of people = death sentence," because that oversimplifies the matter. Revan was corrupted because he sacrificed everything to the service of defending the Republic and its people, even as the jedi - its vaunted defenders- did nothing and just let the Republic hemorrhage innocent populations. Even if Revan is guilty, that MUST be considered. And Revan saved the Republic from Malak, when he reverted to his "true" LS self, even though the jedi manipulated him and used him as a tool. And when his knowledge of the true Sith resurfaced, he left and sacrificed himself to the cause of saving the Republic yet again.

 

Did Revan kill innocent people? Yes.

Did he do so out of willful malice? Definitely not, since it followed from his cause to save the Republic.

Does he deserves punishment for it? Perhaps.

Are there extenuating circumstances? Most definitely.

Does he deserve the death penalty? No way!

[Robb Stark]

Ignoring whether Revan was able to persuade the individuals who knew his identity that there was a more dire threat (ie one that perhaps he alone had the knowledge and power to deal with) than the Mandalorians or "his" Sith beyond the edges of the known galaxy, Revan should have been given over to the courts.

 

The issue then becomes whether he was fit to stand trial. Which is debatable with the exact knowledge we have of his state of mind at the moment. If he is not mentally capable of defending himself, then he should be cut off from the Force and placed under watch for the rest of his life.

 

If he remembered what he had done, and was well and truly sorry for it, he wold have entered a guilty plea and submitted to the justice that by law he deserved. The courts could then decide, based on his sentencing testimony, whether there were mitigating circumstances that should affect his sentence. Namely, that he saved many lives by taking control of Republic (that, BTW, had already committed to war) forces to defeat the Mandalorians and by fighting against Malak after the Jedi Council raped his mind. These sorts of issues of "character" come up all the time in legal sentencings and have nothing to do with determining the guilt or innocence itself.

 

Because Revan is guilty of the crimes and attrocities he committed and ordered when he returned as a Sith Lord to conquer the galaxy. Whether or not a crime is committed does not depend on one's actions previous or following that crime. Saving an old lady from being hit by a car one day does not permit me to run over a drunkard standing in the middle of the road giving me the finger the next. You either committed a crime or you didn't, and if you did you are punished.

 

Of course, the Star Wars universe itself is somewhat ambiguous when it comes to this point. Whereas real-world society has determined that "good" and "evil" usually equate to law-abiding and law-breaking, Star Wars seems to separate good and evil from right and wrong. In Star Wars, one could be law-breaking and good or law-abiding and evil. Furthermore, while in the real world law-abiding/good is the expected status quo, Star Wars (and much fantasy in general actually) places the status quo at neutral and then pits good and evil against each other as opposing forces--often because the amount of morally questionable acts good characters must undertake in fantasy renders a good=lawful approach ineffectual. In such a "karmic" system, because no one is expected to be good, good deeds can in fact be considered to make up for evil ones.

 

On top of that, the Jedi seem to stand apart from the political side of the Republic. They police their own while also enforcing the Republic's dictums on others at the request of the galactic government. If they refused to give Revan over to the courts, what could, or would, the Senate do about it? The Jedi Council seems to hold itself as the ultimate arbiter of morality based on whatever serves their convoluted version of the Light Side of the Force best (this applies equally to the Council of Revan's time as it does Annakin's IMO). If they determined Revan had sufficiently redeemed himself for his crimes, that would be the end of it as far as they were concerned and everyone else would be wrong.

[Jediphile]

I think one thing everybody seems to be overlooking is the question of rehabilitation. Is Revan capable of that? Well, I think he's already proven that he HAS been rehabilitated and can positively contribute to society by virtue of defeating Malak and destroying the Starforge. That's for LS Revan, of course - DS Revan is a villain and deserves the harshest punishment. I'm not talking about DS Revan.

 

The point is that playing LS Revan, I did feel guilty about all the horrible things I'd done, and I wanted to save the galaxy not just to atone for my own sins, but to try to make up for my own misdeeds. In that sense, Revan didn't save the Republic to get a lesser sentence - he just did it because it was the right and moral thing to do. And I would agree that LS Revan would enter a plea of guilty and throw himself on the mercy of the courts. But I also think that the courts would see that there are reasons for how he ended up, and that while he has done bad, he has done good both before and after and deserves some consideration for that as well.

[Emperor Devon]

ED, your quote is about 4000 years off. you're doing the equivalent of proving a scientific point using medieval alchemy. anything can happen in 4000 years.

 

Mmm, I disagree.

 

Czerka isn't policed because it's too large to be policed... {snip}

 

What Jediphile said.

 

...and the sw galaxy is based from? you guessed it, our planet.

 

Extraordinarily loosely... We don't have mystical energy fields, lightsaber, starships, or all those other things found in SW.

 

It's a fairly moot point to debate, anyway. It served Lucas' plot if the Senate was corrupt, so he decided they'd be corrupt.

 

most jedi. and you know what? Revan didn't even try to sway the jedi. he/she just made war.

 

It would've just been a waste of resources. They wouldn't have listened to him anyway, but if he tried to talk to them they would've been able to prepare for his war.

 

you are still forgetting and still avoiding the fact that every person in the galaxy that has access to the holonet views Revan as a public hero and superstar. to put this in real life, nobody will notice John Doe getting killed, but how in the living name do you cover something like the suspicious death of Bill Gates?

 

You arrange a shuttle crash, create a scandal, frame him for something, have him killed by leftover Mandalorians... Honestly, when you have a government that spans the majority of the galaxy and has access to most of its resources, arranging one person's death is not very hard to do.

 

alright, everyone on the defence (ED, Jediphile) just give me a quote of the Rakata comp saying you need ds to operate, and i'll admit i'm wrong.

 

Here's a couple.

 

The Rakata are by nature a cruel and savage species. The Star Forge fueled itself with the hatred inherent in its own creators, and in doing so it accentuated these traits within the Builders.

 

In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself.

 

The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. It must feed on the dark side that is within all of us!

 

ED, why in the world did you not say this sooner? if there is something that straight out says: "if you ain't ds, you can't use the star forge", then how can i argue that?

 

The debate wouldn't have been nearly as fun.

 

what was so great about Revan's actions and why does he/she not deserve execution for them? how did the war benefit the republic and the people?

 

Well, we've established that the Star Forge could only be used by darksiders, which is a necessary tool with which to defeat the true Sith. Revan then had the choice of using it and killing several million in the people in the process, or not using it and letting the true Sith kill trillions. Pretty simple moral dilemma IMO.

[Nancy Allen``]

Hmmm, would you prefer that the Mandalorians had won the war? That Malek and the Sith won? Even the Jedi who didn't go to war admit that it was right to do so.

[Robb Stark]

BTW, to add to my previous post, should a LS Revan submit a 'guilty' plea to the courts, and I were the judge, I would still find the matter of the whether or not to give the death sentence difficult.

 

Personally, I think Revan has done enough to deserve to live on to serve the Republic provided certain conditions could be met by the Jedi...almost like a "paroled for life" situation. Plus, regardless of his actual Force affinity, he is still too intelligent and charismatic to be left alone unwatched IMO.

 

But in terms of a galaxy-spanning democracy, certain sacrifices, certain examples, sometimes have to be made for the benefit of the sustainabilty of the Republic as a whole. Forgiving someone for attrocities in exchange for tremendous good acts sends a terrible message IMO. How many Revan's can the galaxy stand? On the other hand, telling someone who has done great evil that they will still be punished even if they eventually are in position to do great good could also be detrimental in the long run.

 

The best solution may have been, as has been brought up, to have Revan simply die in an accident, to take it out of the hands of those who would have to establish a precident by passing sentence on his crimes. The next alternative being Revan simply leave the galaxy altogether, as he did.

[EnIgmA_XX]

DS Revan is guilty, yes. LS Revan committed them, but was corrupted during his attempt to save the Republic from the Mandalorians and has since redeemed himself. So even if it is decided he deserves punishment, the death sentence is too harsh.

 

being corrupted can be a partial explanation, but it definitely for the most part doesn't excuse anything. ls Revan is Revan, and ds Revan is still mostly Revan. it wasn't like someone was forcing him/her to commit war, and if so, not on the republic!

 

also an interesting point to consider is whether Revan was still the same person after being mindwiped. when the jedi proggramed a new mind into Revan, there is a very noticable possibility that he/she changed as a person from what he/she originally was as in, changed behavior. for example, the Rakata comp in Kashyyk. the answers that my ls Revan chose (we're talking about pure ls Revan, aren't we?) were different than the original Revan chose. even the original ls Revan from the Mando wars would have made the more ds choices. even when the secret is finally revealed at the Leviathan, the memory didn't necesarily change Revan back.

 

I actually agree with that. Listen to HK-47's descriptions of senators in KotOR, though. It sounds very similar, somehow...

 

i don't talk to HK. are there any quotes? can he be trusted? are his statements heavily opinionated?

 

What company doesn't? And if the senate is so pathetic that it can't see Czerka's corruption when it's as blindingly obvious as it is in KotOR, then they're either blind or corrupt themselves, and so what good are they?

 

"What company doesn't?" ??? are you suggesting something?...seriously Jediphile, believe it or not, there are big, honest companies out there [insert big gasp]. of course a place like Wal-Mart could be hiding something, i mean, any company could. Czerka spans many, many planets. why are you going to spend resourses on policing them when you can use it for other projects?

 

it also isn't blatantly obvious Jediphile. it's blatantly obvious in Kashyyk because of it's remote-ness (remember my island a bit east of Madagascar analogy?) and on Telos, they embed themselves in legal loopholes and silence anyone that figures out about their intentions. the senate isn't at fault and you shouldn't try to blame them for everything that happens in the galaxy.

 

I don't think we actually know that Revan didn't even try. It doesn't seem like he tried to return to Coruscant to present evidence to the masters, no, but he could easily have sent a message, especially since that would not have given the masters a golden opportunity to behead him for being DS.

 

But it's probably a moot point anyway, since Revan was already DS by then and would not have listened much to what the masters had to say.

 

if he sent a message, someone would have known about the true sith. who knew about the true sith in KOTOR 1? Revan was the only person that knew, and therefore, he/she didn't tell anyone about it.

 

"especially since that would not have given the masters a golden opportunity to behead him for being DS." Jediphile, if there's one thing in all of sw that's written in stone, it's: "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire."

―Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

this, again is from Wookiepedia (i'm so lazy) but i think we can all remember where this came from. note the "guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic" part. they may have been a bit arrogant, and maybe a bit short sighted, but all in all the jedi are good people. saying that the jedi are going to behead Revan for going to them shouldn't even have been mentioned in the first place.

 

"But it's probably a moot point anyway, since Revan was already DS by then and would not have listened much to what the masters had to say." and so he/she is at fault, again.

 

Not a particularly good example, given how that news is likely to be received in some circles

 

Suffice it to say that Revan was a hero, while Bill Gates is a controversial person at best.

 

yeah, i know that he's quite controvesial. i didn't choose him for his popularity, but for his global, uh...

 

 

well-known-ness?

 

 

 

but at any rate, it'd still be hard to cover up something like that.

 

Revan prevented the core of the Republic from becoming a complacent and stagnant beast. Not that this excuses his actions - Revan did wrong - but there are extenuating circumstances. And Revan did make one big and fatal mistake - like Ulic he thought he could control the dark side and use it as a weapon. Essentially he tried to use the dark side as you suggest the jedi could use the Starforge. Darth Revan is what the jedi would have become if they had tried (so it's probably good they never got the chance).

 

Also, Revan's choices were forced by the inactivity of the jedi council. Although Bastila tells us they would have acted against the Mandalorians in the end, that still would have left the Republic shattered and defenseless against the true Sith. Not to mention how many lives the jedi would have thrown away by then.

 

I'm not saying Revan didn't do bad things, but I insist that he was not alone in being wrong, and that his position was forced by the inactivity of others. The Mandalorian Wars cost Revan his soul, so you cannot just look at then numbers and say, "Revan killed x number of people = death sentence," because that oversimplifies the matter. Revan was corrupted because he sacrificed everything to the service of defending the Republic and its people, even as the jedi - its vaunted defenders- did nothing and just let the Republic hemorrhage innocent populations. Even if Revan is guilty, that MUST be considered. And Revan saved the Republic from Malak, when he reverted to his "true" LS self, even though the jedi manipulated him and used him as a tool. And when his knowledge of the true Sith resurfaced, he left and sacrificed himself to the cause of saving the Republic yet again.

 

Did Revan kill innocent people? Yes.

Did he do so out of willful malice? Definitely not, since it followed from his cause to save the Republic.

Does he deserves punishment for it? Perhaps.

Are there extenuating circumstances? Most definitely.

Does he deserve the death penalty? No way!

 

"Revan prevented the core of the Republic from becoming a complacent and stagnant beast."

 

...and so he/she turned it into a very bloody beast that had been turned inside out and had half of its limbs broken. hmm...

 

also, if i had heard about what the Rakata comp said (Revan talked to it too) i would've given up. Revan didn't. but anyway, he/she was ds already.

 

"Although Bastila tells us they would have acted against the Mandalorians in the end, that still would have left the Republic shattered and defenseless against the true Sith." and they aren't right now?

 

"his position was forced by the inactivity of others." okay, wait. when EXACTLY did Revan turn ds? does anyone know if it was before or after seeing the artifacts/proof/whatever in the sith academy? if Revan turned ds after seeing the proof, to "stop the sith", he/she should've instead tried to rebuild the republic and warn people instead, which makes everything his/her fault because Revan could've tried to stop the inactivity of the jedi. if he/she turned ds after going on the planet (Mal V,was it?) what in the world was he/she doing there to begin with? if it was before going on the planet, then how? under what circumstances?

 

about the true ls Revan stuff, i'll quote myself from earlier this post:

 

"also an interesting point to consider is whether Revan was still the same person after being mindwiped. when the jedi proggramed a new mind into Revan, there is a very noticable possibility that he/she changed as a person from what he/she originally was as in, changed behavior. for example, the Rakata comp in Kashyyk. the answers that my ls Revan chose (we're talking about pure ls Revan, aren't we?) were different than the original Revan chose. even the original ls Revan from the Mando wars would have made the more ds choices. even when the secret is finally revealed at the Leviathan, the memory didn't necesarily change Revan back."

 

Mmm, I disagree.

 

but why do you dissagree about senate corruption? they aren't amazing, but they don't seem evil. to me they're just your average senate.

 

Extraordinarily loosely... We don't have mystical energy fields, lightsaber, starships, or all those other things found in SW.

 

It's a fairly moot point to debate, anyway. It served Lucas' plot if the Senate was corrupt, so he decided they'd be corrupt.

 

but the themes, morality, and hardships are very real, no?

 

i guess i agree this is moot too, though. we should work on evidence from the game/era.

 

It would've just been a waste of resources. They wouldn't have listened to him anyway, but if he tried to talk to them they would've been able to prepare for his war.

 

it wouldn't have been a waste, ED. not going to the jedi in the first place shows how little Revan actually cares about warning people. Revan was careless, and it cost a lot of lives. he/she could've convinced some jedi about it, and even if it was in vain, it would've shown that Revan had the interests of the republic and jedi at heart. also, he/she didn't actually have to right out say that "okay everyone, if you guys don't help me out i'm gonna kill/convert/torture you all!"

 

You arrange a shuttle crash, create a scandal, frame him for something, have him killed by leftover Mandalorians... Honestly, when you have a government that spans the majority of the galaxy and has access to most of its resources, arranging one person's death is not very hard to do.

 

have you seen the Bill Gates analogy?

 

The debate wouldn't have been nearly as fun.

 

true

 

Well, we've established that the Star Forge could only be used by darksiders, which is a necessary tool with which to defeat the true Sith. Revan then had the choice of using it and killing several million in the people in the process, or not using it and letting the true Sith kill trillions. Pretty simple moral dilemma IMO.

 

but, it wasn't used on the true sith, was it?

 

Hmmm, would you prefer that the Mandalorians had won the war? That Malek and the Sith won? Even the Jedi who didn't go to war admit that it was right to do so.

 

i'm not really getting the point here. of course i'm all for the republic and the jedi, which is why i'm trying to convict Revan in the first place.

[Jediphile]

being corrupted can be a partial explanation, but it definitely for the most part doesn't excuse anything. ls Revan is Revan, and ds Revan is still mostly Revan. it wasn't like someone was forcing him/her to commit war, and if so, not on the republic!

 

It was a consequence of Revan being forced to enter the Mandalorian Wars by the inactivity of the jedi order. I'm not saying Revan is blameless, but the jedi order must accept some responsibility for the situation as well. Basically they demanded that Revan stayed at home and watched the outer rim burn on the holonet. But Revan and Malak had too strong a morality and sense of duty to just sit there and do nothing. They had to act. Not because they were itching for war, but because they could not bear to watch innocents die while they did nothing themselves. The rigid and inflexible position of the council forced Revan's decision. In essence, Revan made a choice similar to the one Luke makes in ESB, when he disobeys Obi-Wan and Yoda to go and save his friends. For Revan the choice is far more understandable, since there are so many more lives in the balance.

 

Zez-Kai Ell even acknowledges this in TSL: "I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions. {Quiet}And I was not the only Jedi Master to watch a student turn on them. No, no - they were not to blame, but many of the Order did so - it was a difficult time, a time of strong emotion.Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead.{Frustrated}Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside.

 

i don't talk to HK. are there any quotes? can he be trusted? are his statements heavily opinionated?

 

Well, I can't quote anything since I don't have KotOR installed and so don't have access to its dialog.tlk file. But when repairing HK, you can learn quite a bit about his former masters, one of which was indeed a senator, who immediately proceeded to HK to assassinate his political opponents... This is all told from HK's, ahem, 'unique' point of view, of course, but I do trust that we can take his facts as such, and his matter-of-fact'ish description of the senate bears heavy similarity to the semi-corrupt senate we see in Episode I.

 

"What company doesn't?" ??? are you suggesting something?...seriously Jediphile, believe it or not, there are big, honest companies out there [insert big gasp]. of course a place like Wal-Mart could be hiding something, i mean, any company could. Czerka spans many, many planets. why are you going to spend resourses on policing them when you can use it for other projects?

 

it also isn't blatantly obvious Jediphile. it's blatantly obvious in Kashyyk because of it's remote-ness (remember my island a bit east of Madagascar analogy?) and on Telos, they embed themselves in legal loopholes and silence anyone that figures out about their intentions. the senate isn't at fault and you shouldn't try to blame them for everything that happens in the galaxy.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that Czerka is not exactly hiding what it's doing on Kashyyyk or Tatooine in KotOR. It's not some dirty little niche hidden off the books. Heck, they've even renamed officially renamed - I think they call it "Edean". What would be the point of that, if the Republic does not know of its activities? Besides, on both Dantooine and Manaan, there is little doubt about the nefarious activities of Czerka, nor is the TSF unaware of it on Citadel Station over Telos in TSL. Besides, Czerka is openly active on Korriban, a Sith world, which should certainly raise some questions. Or how about the "disgruntled" ex-employee that Grenn has you track down only to have Czerka attempt to MURDER him rather than talk to authorities. With such a reputation, it would seem that the senate should at the very least look into their activities, yet Czerka is still in business and still exploiting loopholes.

 

Conclusion: Either the senate is completely incompetent or else they just don't care, possibly because some of the senators are in Czerka's pocket.

 

Or let's put it this way - while there is (circumstantial) evidence to suggest that the senate is stagnant and corrupt, there is no evidence to suggest it is doing a fine job of eliminating corruption within itself or the Republic in general.

 

if he sent a message, someone would have known about the true sith. who knew about the true sith in KOTOR 1? Revan was the only person that knew, and therefore, he/she didn't tell anyone about it.

 

Nonsense. Someone could have seen this and simply deleted it, because it was dangerous knowledge or "propaganda". The Republic is not above doing such things. Hence we have the Genoharadan. The jedi aren't above it either (see below).

 

"especially since that would not have given the masters a golden opportunity to behead him for being DS." Jediphile, if there's one thing in all of sw that's written in stone, it's: "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire."

―Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

this, again is from Wookiepedia (i'm so lazy) but i think we can all remember where this came from. note the "guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic" part. they may have been a bit arrogant, and maybe a bit short sighted, but all in all the jedi are good people. saying that the jedi are going to behead Revan for going to them shouldn't even have been mentioned in the first place.

 

Try telling that to the fellow apprentices of Zayne Carrick whom their own masters proceeded to brutally murder simply because they had seen a vision, where a Sith bringing destruction to the jedi order is wearing the standard environment suits of jedi padawans.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Covenant

 

Yes, I realise they were part of a covenant and not the order in general, but they are still jedi. Jedi are "guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic". Sure they are. The problem is the lengths some of them are willing to go to in order to safeguard the republic. This particular covenant was established in the basis that both Exar Kun and Ulic had been rebelling apprentices who shattered the order, which they would not allow to happen again, no matter the cost. The five masters in the covenant were so hellbent on this that they murdered their own padawans after seeing a vision. Zayne escaped, however, and so they blamed all the murders on him, making him a fugitive.

 

This is all from the Knights of the Old Republic comic book series, but its still canon - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_%28comics%29

 

 

Oh, and guess what happens when Zayne manages to contact Vandar over the holonet and tells him about what the masters in the covenant have done? Vander doesn't believe him. Instead he just suggests to Zayne that maybe Zayne killed his fellow padawans and then somehow forgotten or twisted it. Instead of helping, Vandar just tells Zayne to turn himself over to the very jedi masters who are trying to murder him and frame him for their own actions.

 

Now, this all happens just before the Mandalorian Wars, so I don't think Revan sending a message, which is then deleted, only a few years later is out of the realm of possibility... or probability.

 

The jedi order in the pre-KotOR1 era are protectors of the Republic, yes, but they are NOT by definition the paragons of morality and ethics that Yoda or Obi-Wan are.

 

"Although Bastila tells us they would have acted against the Mandalorians in the end, that still would have left the Republic shattered and defenseless against the true Sith." and they aren't right now?

 

They are not complacent and they do have a fleet. But I'm not denying that Revan has caused the Republic lots of problems. Much of this must be attributed to Malak and not Revan, though:

 

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

 

"his position was forced by the inactivity of others." okay, wait. when EXACTLY did Revan turn ds? does anyone know if it was before or after seeing the artifacts/proof/whatever in the sith academy? if Revan turned ds after seeing the proof, to "stop the sith", he/she should've instead tried to rebuild the republic and warn people instead, which makes everything his/her fault because Revan could've tried to stop the inactivity of the jedi. if he/she turned ds after going on the planet (Mal V,was it?) what in the world was he/she doing there to begin with? if it was before going on the planet, then how? under what circumstances?

 

Since Revan could not set foot on Malachor V without first going DS and he found his evidence there, in the Trayus Academy, it naturally follows that that he fell to the dark side BEFORE he found his proof. To repeat myself:

 

It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed.

 

Now, this does not mention the true Sith, of course, but Kreia does tell us.

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

Now, this tells me that there was no way Revan could even set foot on Malachor V without falling to the dark side. And since he did not die, he did fall to the dark side at that point. But since the proof of the true Sith came from the Trayus Academy, which lies on Malachor V, it naturally follows that Revan must fall to the dark side before he can even find it, let alone tell anyone about it.

 

Or to quote Kreia again:

 

Kreia: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them."

 

Now, it's fairly obvious that the place she is talking about here is Malachor V. It is a place of utter corruption, swirling with the dark side. No jedi can set foot there without being corrupted, and the Trayus Academy is itself an evil place full of forbidden lore. So I do agree with Emperor Deven that the Jedi would have dismissed Revan's "proof" both on the basis that Revan had himself fallen already, and because that proof are "dark texts" that are forbidden to read because they corrupt those who do. Therefore the Jedi would not have read them, and they wouldn't have allowed anyone else to either - they would have destroyed the infection before it could spread, and they would have sensed items from Malachor V a long way off, since it is so powerful with the dark side.

 

but why do you dissagree about senate corruption? they aren't amazing, but they don't seem evil. to me they're just your average senate.

 

Due to the way they are described by HK-47 in KotOR and how they seem to be unwilling or incompetent to do anything about Czerka.

[SilentScope001]

Hmmm, would you prefer that the Mandalorians had won the war? That Malek and the Sith won? Even the Jedi who didn't go to war admit that it was right to do so.

 

The Mandalorians was a trap, however, set by the True Sith (possibly, could be declared uncanon). They were used to weaken the Republic, and prehaps even to fight a war of conversion, to get people to join DS. Prehaps the true war was NOT against the Republic but against the Jedi. Revan taking that bait may be what led Revan to fall to the DS. In which case, the True Sith were the true winners of the Mandalorian Wars, and not the Republic.

 

And, Malak "did win the Jedi Civil War", according to Goto. His goals was accomplished, and the Republic was left in ruin.

 

It was a consequence of Revan being forced to enter the Mandalorian Wars by the inactivity of the jedi order. I'm not saying Revan is blameless, but the jedi order must accept some responsibility for the situation as well. Basically they demanded that Revan stayed at home and watched the outer rim burn on the holonet. But Revan and Malak had too strong a morality and sense of duty to just sit there and do nothing. They had to act. Not because they were itching for war, but because they could not bear to watch innocents die while they did nothing themselves. The rigid and inflexible position of the council forced Revan's decision. In essence, Revan made a choice similar to the one Luke makes in ESB, when he disobeys Obi-Wan and Yoda to go and save his friends. For Revan the choice is far more understandable, since there are so many more lives in the balance.

 

Yeah right. The Jedi Order was smart, and was much more smarter than Revan. How come?

 

They knew of the True Sith.

 

Bastila said it herself. The Jedi Order wanted to intervene, but thought it was a trap, to weaken the Jedi Order. Therefore, they stayed put.

 

Innoecnts was going to die anyway, and if the Jedi took the trap, they would have fallen prey...just like Revan and Malak. More innocents would have died had the whole Jedi Order turned DS to battle the Mandalorians and the True Sith, no? Some are more extreme than the others in their hatred of the War, but you can't argue with the effects...

 

"I see now why you have followed Revan. It was something you could not turn away from..."-Atris.

 

If Revan and Malak did not know of the dangers of disobeying the Jedi Order, then it was understandable. But they did. They heard the warnings that something out there would act as a corrupting agent...and they left anyway, believing that they should 'save' people.

 

I also doubt Revan actually left to save people...Kreia mentioned that Revan wanted to "go home", and that he went to Kreia, before the Mandalorian Wars, to 'learn how best to leave the Order'. Revan wanted to leave the Order anyway, and used the Wars as a pretext. Revan's motives, pre-wipe, is not all that pure...

 

The best solution may have been, as has been brought up, to have Revan simply die in an accident, to take it out of the hands of those who would have to establish a precident by passing sentence on his crimes. The next alternative being Revan simply leave the galaxy altogether, as he did.

 

Why not just a long imprisonment? Or a mindrape I suggested some time ago?

 

Alternatively, prehaps the Republic does not need precedent. It can be unfair.

 

Kreia: "Ow..ow...I have lost my memory a long time ago, realized that I have turned Revan to the Dark Side and have redeemed myself. Please, please save me..."

 

Republic: "Yeah right. I hate your manlipuative guts. And you are too old. To the execution chambers!"

 

Kreia: "NOOOO!"

 

(Nooo...Republic is corrupt!)

 

And the Sith isn't? Just sounds werid that someone would say that the Republic is so corrupt that we must smash it and replace it with an effiecnt government that is evil...and likely corrupt as well.

 

And, since when is being Corrupt a Dark Sided act? For example, if you go and bribe the Hotel Manager in Mannan to testify in that trial (in K1), you gain no DS points. If you mind control the Hotel Manager to testify in that trial, you gain DS. So, really, bribing people is better than taking over their mind, since at least the person can choose if he wants to accept the money or not.

 

If being corrupt is not an evil act, and is merely just a Grey act, then the Republic is not evil at all.

 

Also seems strange that people would be loyal to the Republic if it is corrupt...but then again, the Republic Spy on Onderon in K2 also explains that they are defending the Republic so that economic trading can occur, not for freedom or liberty...so it might not be suprising...

[EnIgmA_XX]

It was a consequence of Revan being forced to enter the Mandalorian Wars by the inactivity of the jedi order. I'm not saying Revan is blameless, but the jedi order must accept some responsibility for the situation as well. Basically they demanded that Revan stayed at home and watched the outer rim burn on the holonet. But Revan and Malak had too strong a morality and sense of duty to just sit there and do nothing. They had to act. Not because they were itching for war, but because they could not bear to watch innocents die while they did nothing themselves. The rigid and inflexible position of the council forced Revan's decision. In essence, Revan made a choice similar to the one Luke makes in ESB, when he disobeys Obi-Wan and Yoda to go and save his friends. For Revan the choice is far more understandable, since there are so many more lives in the balance.

 

Zez-Kai Ell even acknowledges this in TSL: "I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions. {Quiet}And I was not the only Jedi Master to watch a student turn on them. No, no - they were not to blame, but many of the Order did so - it was a difficult time, a time of strong emotion.Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead.{Frustrated}Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside.

 

but i'm not talking about the Mando wars, i'm talking about after, when Revan decided that he/she would really like to tear the republic apart. i was saying that even though Revan was corrupted, he/she was still Revan and was still mostly/somewhat in control of him/herself so Revan is still to blame.

 

Well, I can't quote anything since I don't have KotOR installed and so don't have access to its dialog.tlk file. But when repairing HK, you can learn quite a bit about his former masters, one of which was indeed a senator, who immediately proceeded to HK to assassinate his political opponents... This is all told from HK's, ahem, 'unique' point of view, of course, but I do trust that we can take his facts as such, and his matter-of-fact'ish description of the senate bears heavy similarity to the semi-corrupt senate we see in Episode I.

 

but there was only one? i thought there'd be more. of course in real life and also in sw there's going to be the ocasional oddball, in this case a corrupt person. it doesn't mean the whole lot of them are losers.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that Czerka is not exactly hiding what it's doing on Kashyyyk or Tatooine in KotOR. It's not some dirty little niche hidden off the books. Heck, they've even renamed officially renamed - I think they call it "Edean". What would be the point of that, if the Republic does not know of its activities? Besides, on both Dantooine and Manaan, there is little doubt about the nefarious activities of Czerka, nor is the TSF unaware of it on Citadel Station over Telos in TSL. Besides, Czerka is openly active on Korriban, a Sith world, which should certainly raise some questions. Or how about the "disgruntled" ex-employee that Grenn has you track down only to have Czerka attempt to MURDER him rather than talk to authorities. With such a reputation, it would seem that the senate should at the very least look into their activities, yet Czerka is still in business and still exploiting loopholes.

 

Conclusion: Either the senate is completely incompetent or else they just don't care, possibly because some of the senators are in Czerka's pocket.

 

Or let's put it this way - while there is (circumstantial) evidence to suggest that the senate is stagnant and corrupt, there is no evidence to suggest it is doing a fine job of eliminating corruption within itself or the Republic in general.

 

they don't have to hide it, the areas are so insanely remote that nobody is going to hear aboout them in the first place. they could hang signs all over Kashyyk that say "teh republic sux! -Czerka" and nobody would know about it because nobody goes there!

 

as well you have to consider that while they're "activities" aren't always unheard of, getting evidence and witnesses are a completely different matter, both of which Czerka cover up quite well.

 

i also wasn't claiming that the senate is awesome, what i'm saying is that they aren't even close to what some people claim.

 

Nonsense. Someone could have seen this and simply deleted it, because it was dangerous knowledge or "propaganda". The Republic is not above doing such things. Hence we have the Genoharadan. The jedi aren't above it either (see below).

 

the problem Jediphhile, is that all of those statements are for the most part IMO and speculation. sure, Revan could have sent a message which was received by a jedi, in which case the Genoharadan quickly assasinated for no readily identifiable reason, but isn't it more probable that Revan just left? sure anything could've happened. Revan could've had a long talk with the council but we never heard of it because nobody bothered to bring it up, but there is exactly no evidence whatsoever of this. same with the letter

 

Try telling that to the fellow apprentices of Zayne Carrick whom their own masters proceeded to brutally murder simply because they had seen a vision, where a Sith bringing destruction to the jedi order is wearing the standard environment suits of jedi padawans.

 

The jedi order in the pre-KotOR1 era are protectors of the Republic, yes, but they are NOT by definition the paragons of morality and ethics that Yoda or Obi-Wan are.

 

Jediphile, in real life, if we have a shark that eats a guy's arm, should we slaughter all the sharks? if we have a serial killer on the loose, are we supposed to never trust a human ever again?

 

They are not complacent and they do have a fleet. But I'm not denying that Revan has caused

 

the Republic lots of problems. Much of this must be attributed to Malak and not Revan, though:

 

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

 

The republic is on the verge of collapse. GOTO said this himself; that in three months the republic would fall from lack of infrastructure to support itself.

 

also, i wonder who turned Malak to the darkside in the first place.

 

Since Revan could not set foot on Malachor V without first going DS and he found his evidence there, in the Trayus Academy, it naturally follows that that he fell to the dark side BEFORE he found his proof.

 

alright. why did he/she go there in the first place, though?

[Jediphile]

The Mandalorians was a trap, however, set by the True Sith (possibly, could be declared uncanon). They were used to weaken the Republic, and prehaps even to fight a war of conversion, to get people to join DS. Prehaps the true war was NOT against the Republic but against the Jedi. Revan taking that bait may be what led Revan to fall to the DS. In which case, the True Sith were the true winners of the Mandalorian Wars, and not the Republic.

 

And, Malak "did win the Jedi Civil War", according to Goto. His goals was accomplished, and the Republic was left in ruin.

 

According to GOTO, yes. I'm not sure Malak agrees, though. Maybe we should ask him. Oh wait, we can't. Because he's DEAD!

 

Yeah right. The Jedi Order was smart, and was much more smarter than Revan. How come?

 

They knew of the True Sith.

 

Bastila said it herself. The Jedi Order wanted to intervene, but thought it was a trap, to weaken the Jedi Order. Therefore, they stayed put.

 

That is a completely unfounded statement. There is nothing in KotOR to suggest the masters knew of the true Sith, nor can there be, since the true Sith are never mentioned in KotOR but only in TSL.

 

Besides, how can you possibly claim this, when in the very same post above you also say: "The Mandalorians was a trap, however, set by the True Sith (possibly, could be declared uncanon)"

 

If it is still possible to declare this uncanon, then how you possibly establish that the masters possibly knew anything?!?

 

Sorry, but IMHO you're contradicting yourself.

 

And second, even if you were right and the masters knew - and that is no admission, just speculation - then the masters' "choice" to stay put makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is actually completely insane, since the Mandalorians are already ravaging the republic. As they do so on the outer rim, the Republic and its fleet grows weaker and weaker as the jedi refuse to act. But not only is are they just letting the Republic bleed ships and people, they are also splitting their order with their inactivity. Revan and Malak carried the banner, yes, but the other padawans still made their own choice to follow them. So by doing nothing the masters have managed to (1) let the Republic lose resources in the outer rim, (2) allowed the Republic fleet to suffer great losses by not helping them, and (3) forced a split inside the order itself. Now, are either of these outcomes going to be benefits or hinderances when the time does come to fight the true Sith? In that case the masters are just completely stupid. I prefer to see them as just arrogant and uncaring.

 

Because in the end, what does it matter that the masters knew of the true Sith, if there is no Republic left to fight them by the time they reveal themselves? I've seen better strategic planning by three-year-olds playing RISK... Because that's just stupid, stupid, stupid!

 

Innoecnts was going to die anyway, and if the Jedi took the trap, they would have fallen prey...just like Revan and Malak. More innocents would have died had the whole Jedi Order turned DS to battle the Mandalorians and the True Sith, no? Some are more extreme than the others in their hatred of the War, but you can't argue with the effects...

 

The problem with this argument is that it hangs together only if you claim that war is inherently corrupting to jedi. But jedi have fought wars both before and after the KotOR era without necessarily falling to the dark side. And besides, Bastila also says that order would eventually have fought the Mandalorians. There is nothing particularly dangerous about the Mandalorians, since they do not represent any particular corruption to the jedi - they are just warriors like any others and not Sith, after all. Sure, they're good warriros, but still...

 

And besides...

 

Kreia: "And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

 

"I see now why you have followed Revan. It was something you could not turn away from..."-Atris.

 

If Revan and Malak did not know of the dangers of disobeying the Jedi Order, then it was understandable. But they did. They heard the warnings that something out there would act as a corrupting agent...and they left anyway, believing that they should 'save' people.

 

I disagree with that, and there is no proof of it anyway. Besides, Zez-Kai Ell himself suggets otherwise:

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions. {Quiet}And I was not the only Jedi Master to watch a student turn on them. No, no - they were not to blame, but many of the Order did so - it was a difficult time, a time of strong emotion.Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead.{Frustrated}Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside. And now, that decision has come back to us, and may carry with it, our destruction. Perhaps there is something wrong in us, in our teachings. And though I tried, I could not cause that thought to leave me - so I left the Council. And I was not the only one. That is why many scattered... and why many in the Republic do not trust us. And why we do not trust ourselves. Make no mistake - I am no Jedi. This is the end you see. After this, there will be nothing.{Quietly}And I think it will be for the best. Do you wish to do battle now? I have nothing more to say. It provides no comfort at all, for reasons on which I still must keep secret.Suffice to say redemption was not Revan's choice, and I have never believed those of the Council who attempt to console themselves otherwise for the crime they committed."

 

I also doubt Revan actually left to save people...Kreia mentioned that Revan wanted to "go home", and that he went to Kreia, before the Mandalorian Wars, to 'learn how best to leave the Order'. Revan wanted to leave the Order anyway, and used the Wars as a pretext. Revan's motives, pre-wipe, is not all that pure...

 

That's not exactly what Kreia says, though.

 

Kreia: "But that is my belief, since I knew Revan from long ago... as a master knows their apprentice.Revan had a mother and father, parents, ancestors, like all Jedi do. And when he awakened to his potential, I was there to see it.But where he was born, where he came from, I do not know... anymore than I know where he walks now. Some said that Revan was born in the Outer Regions, beyond the Rim, and that's what called to him during the Mandalorian Wars... and after.It was the call of home."

 

In short, it is speculation and even Kreia admits that she does not know. As for "leaving the order" it is also unclear which time is being referred to...

 

Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each.But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

 

KotOR always left me with the impression that Revan left because the jedi would not act against the Mandalorians, and nothing in TSL has changed that view. Nor is it likely to, since Revan's motives is one area that neither game does not dictate anything about - Revan is the player's character, and so it is your own choice what his/her reasons were.

 

You seem to be suggesting, however, that Revan was already on the verge of embracing the dark side even before the Mandalorian Wars, and that he left for the wars only as a pretext. If that is so, then where is the evidence?

 

And the Sith isn't? Just sounds werid that someone would say that the Republic is so corrupt that we must smash it and replace it with an effiecnt government that is evil...and likely corrupt as well.

 

Of course the Sith are corrupt. The difference is that the Sith have no pretenses about being otherwise. Nor are they held back back by moral or ethical codes.

 

And, since when is being Corrupt a Dark Sided act?

 

I would have thought that was self-evident. In fact, I still do.

 

For example, if you go and bribe the Hotel Manager in Mannan to testify in that trial (in K1), you gain no DS points. If you mind control the Hotel Manager to testify in that trial, you gain DS. So, really, bribing people is better than taking over their mind, since at least the person can choose if he wants to accept the money or not.

 

Because you need to do something, and what will you do. In this case I'd say the manager might possibly take a DS hit (though I doubt it) by taking the bribe, but Revan takes the hit if he robs him of his free will. Besides, a bribe is a "grey" act. It's the sort of thing Jolee might do without a second thought, and he has not been corrupted by it, even though the masters would not approve, since it is not a clear LS act.

 

If being corrupt is not an evil act, and is merely just a Grey act, then the Republic is not evil at all.

 

Doesn't make it good, either. Corruption rarely being a sign a good behavior.

 

Also seems strange that people would be loyal to the Republic if it is corrupt...but then again, the Republic Spy on Onderon in K2 also explains that they are defending the Republic so that economic trading can occur, not for freedom or liberty...so it might not be suprising...

 

"Nemo... patriam quia magna est amat, sed quia sua."

 

Roughly translated: "No one loves his country because it is great but because it is his."

 

If that is not so, then there is little basis for the Genoharadan.

 

but i'm not talking about the Mando wars, i'm talking about after, when Revan decided that he/she would really like to tear the republic apart. i was saying that even though Revan was corrupted, he/she was still Revan and was still mostly/somewhat in control of him/herself so Revan is still to blame.

 

But by then Revan has already become Darth Revan and been corrupted further by the influence of the Starforge. So of course he is going to do nasty things at this point. That is an inevitable consequence of the path he was set upon during the Mandalorian Wars from my perspective.

 

but there was only one? i thought there'd be more. of course in real life and also in sw there's going to be the ocasional oddball, in this case a corrupt person. it doesn't mean the whole lot of them are losers.

 

Doesn't mean there aren't lots of them either, and the way I remember HK describing it, he hardly made it sound as if this was something unusual for a senator to do. Quite the contrary. That may not prove it, but then nor does it disprove it. You can insist it's an isolated incidence, but you really can't know.

 

they don't have to hide it, the areas are so insanely remote that nobody is going to hear aboout them in the first place. they could hang signs all over Kashyyk that say "teh republic sux! -Czerka" and nobody would know about it because nobody goes there!

 

Little point in renaming the planet only on the planet itself. It's all described as very above board and legal what they are doing on Kashyyyk. Either way, it still leaves with the senate being either incompentent to do anything about it or having no problem with it.

 

as well you have to consider that while they're "activities" aren't always unheard of, getting evidence and witnesses are a completely different matter, both of which Czerka cover up quite well.

 

And which the senate does nothing about. Right. What does that tell us about the senate?

 

the problem Jediphhile, is that all of those statements are for the most part IMO and speculation. sure, Revan could have sent a message which was received by a jedi, in which case the Genoharadan quickly assasinated for no readily identifiable reason, but isn't it more probable that Revan just left? sure anything could've happened. Revan could've had a long talk with the council but we never heard of it because nobody bothered to bring it up, but there is exactly no evidence whatsoever of this. same with the letter

 

Still, I have established that such warnings have been ignored and dismissed in the past. It might not have been true in Revan's case, but we can't entirely dismiss the possibility that it was, since we have now established that the jedi can do this sort of thing. Whether then did happen or not, we've still established that the jedi of the era aren't exactly paragons of virtue. If Revan knew that - and given his dealings with the council at the time, that is not unreasonable - then he might not even have bothered because he already knew what would happen.

 

Jediphile, in real life, if we have a shark that eats a guy's arm, should we slaughter all the sharks? if we have a serial killer on the loose, are we supposed to never trust a human ever again?

 

No, but you're turning the argument on its head now. I've established that the jedi do, in fact, commit dirty little acts in this era. Does this mean they all do? No, of course not. I'd never expect Vandar, Dorak, or Zez-Kai Ell to do something like that. But there ARE jedi who do that sort of thing, and they DO keep it hidden from the rest of the order. That's a fact. And it tells us something about the jedi order. You can't just dismiss that by suggesting that they're not all like that.

 

The republic is on the verge of collapse. GOTO said this himself; that in three months the republic would fall from lack of infrastructure to support itself.

 

Yes, but he also says that's Malak's fault and not Revan's.

 

also, i wonder who turned Malak to the darkside in the first place.

 

Revan did after falling himself. But as Revan says at the end, "I'm sorry for starting you down that path, but you chose to continue down it." Malak's betrayal was certainly not Revan's plan.

 

alright. why did he/she go there in the first place, though?

 

I've actually already established that twice above, but for the third time:

It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed.

[Nancy Allen``]

Since we are so desperate to have Revan executed we should look at others who should be held to task. Malek would top the list, why not him? Saul, Bandon, Calo Nord is known to be a mass murderer, how many did Bastila kill? Or Juhani? Canderous would have to be executed, he was a Mandalorian who killed many and seeks to have them rise again. Does Mission have any crimes to her name? What about the Jedi for not acting against the Mandalorians? Or the Jedi who did? And there's one more person who should stand trial: you. Yes you, you played through the game, you did exactly as Revan did. Are you certain you obeyed the law at all times? You never committed any dark side acts? Even so because you are Revan you should be held accountable for the crimes you committed. If you want to have Revan tried convicted and executed then by rights you should be tried convicted and executed because you are Revan, you committed the same acts he did.

[Jediphile]

How about killing Bastila as well? I mean, she fell to the dark side. Not because of Malak, but because she wanted to. As Malak says, she supported using Revan before the council because she knew that was the only way they would allow her to explore the dark side.

 

And she did use her Battle Meditation against the Republic. How many lives did that cost? How many lives would it have cost in the long run? Is she any less guilty than Revan simply because she was weaker and/or stopped sooner?

 

And Revan is clearly more rehabilitated, since he saved the Republic, destroyed the Starforge, killed Malak, and redeemed Bastila. Bastila just fell to the dark side and used her powers against the Republic, then she was redeemed. Yet nobody is calling for her execution? Why not? Because she killed less people? How is she any less bad than Revan? Because Revan killed more people? How many people must Bastila kill before she is condemned to death too?

[EnIgmA_XX]

Besides, how can you possibly claim this, when in the very same post above you also say: "The Mandalorians was a trap, however, set by the True Sith (possibly, could be declared uncanon)"

 

If it is still possible to declare this uncanon, then how you possibly establish that the masters possibly knew anything?!?

 

i could say the exact same thing to your letter explanation:

 

Still, I have established that such warnings have been ignored and dismissed in the past. It might not have been true in Revan's case, but we can't entirely dismiss the possibility that it was, since we have now established that the jedi can do this sort of thing. Whether then did happen or not, we've still established that the jedi of the era aren't exactly paragons of virtue. If Revan knew that - and given his dealings with the council at the time, that is not unreasonable - then he might not even have bothered because he already knew what would happen.

 

also, if he/she actually cared about the order, he/she would've at least tried.

 

But by then Revan has already become Darth Revan and been corrupted further by the influence of the Starforge. So of course he is going to do nasty things at this point. That is an inevitable consequence of the path he was set upon during the Mandalorian Wars from my perspective.

 

this, i believe, should answer it:

 

I'm sorry for starting you down that path, but you chose to continue down it.

 

Doesn't mean there aren't lots of them either, and the way I remember HK describing it, he hardly made it sound as if this was something unusual for a senator to do. Quite the contrary. That may not prove it, but then nor does it disprove it. You can insist it's an isolated incidence, but you really can't know.

 

that's true, which is why i was going under my most probable assumption considering that sw is based on real life: that there are a number of corrupt senators out there, but most are just your average day ones.

 

Little point in renaming the planet only on the planet itself. It's all described as very above board and legal what they are doing on Kashyyyk. Either way, it still leaves with the senate being either incompentent to do anything about it or having no problem with it.

 

can you rephrase this? i don't get what you're trying to tell me.

 

And which the senate does nothing about. Right. What does that tell us about the senate?

 

Jediphile, there is no decent evidence. how are you supposed to convict someone under the *sigh* democratic government if you have nothing to prove your point?

 

ah well, at least democracy is loads better than what Revan and Malak would've done.

 

No, but you're turning the argument on its head now. I've established that the jedi do, in fact, commit dirty little acts in this era. Does this mean they all do? No, of course not. I'd never expect Vandar, Dorak, or Zez-Kai Ell to do something like that. But there ARE jedi who do that sort of thing, and they DO keep it hidden from the rest of the order. That's a fact. And it tells us something about the jedi order. You can't just dismiss that by suggesting that they're not all like that.

 

how am i turning the argument? this is one incident Jediphile, ONE. of course the jedi aren't perfect, i mean, look at Vrook! some of them are arrogant, some are harsh, some are fools. but they are not evil.

 

Yes, but he also says that's Malak's fault and not Revan's.

 

Revan did after falling himself. But as Revan says at the end, "I'm sorry for starting you down that path, but you chose to continue down it." Malak's betrayal was certainly not Revan's plan.

 

 

and Malak is dead. now what about Revan, who started everything in the first place?

 

I've actually already established that twice above

 

wow, i really missed that one, didn't i? sry Jediphile nevertheless, Revan decided to continue down the darkside, and it's his/her fault for it.

 

Since we are so desperate to have Revan executed we should look at others who should be held to task. Malek would top the list, why not him? Saul, Bandon, Calo Nord is known to be a mass murderer, how many did Bastila kill? Or Juhani? Canderous would have to be executed, he was a Mandalorian who killed many and seeks to have them rise again. Does Mission have any crimes to her name? What about the Jedi for not acting against the Mandalorians? Or the Jedi who did? And there's one more person who should stand trial: you. Yes you, you played through the game, you did exactly as Revan did. Are you certain you obeyed the law at all times? You never committed any dark side acts? Even so because you are Revan you should be held accountable for the crimes you committed. If you want to have Revan tried convicted and executed then by rights you should be tried convicted and executed because you are Revan, you committed the same acts he did.

 

How about killing Bastila as well? I mean, she fell to the dark side. Not because of Malak, but because she wanted to. As Malak says, she supported using Revan before the council because she knew that was the only way they would allow her to explore the dark side.

 

And she did use her Battle Meditation against the Republic. How many lives did that cost? How many lives would it have cost in the long run? Is she any less guilty than Revan simply because she was weaker and/or stopped sooner?

 

And Revan is clearly more rehabilitated, since he saved the Republic, destroyed the Starforge, killed Malak, and redeemed Bastila. Bastila just fell to the dark side and used her powers against the Republic, then she was redeemed. Yet nobody is calling for her execution? Why not? Because she killed less people? How is she any less bad than Revan? Because Revan killed more people? How many people must Bastila kill before she is condemned to death too?

 

Whoah, guys, you're totally not seeing the reason why Revan deserves to die, huh? first, Malak, Saul, Bandon, and Calo Nord are dead. it's moot. and out of Juhani, Bastila, Canderous, Mission, and I, which of us has killed over 3 thousand people? hmm, what is that? it's silence. that's right, nobody in that list (exept Malak and Saul, but as i said, they're dead) tops 3 thou. NOBODY. now, how many did Revan kill? several Billion, perhaps?

 

"Bastila just fell to the dark side and used her powers against the Republic, then she was redeemed. Yet nobody is calling for her execution? Why not? Because she killed less people? How is she any less bad than Revan? Because Revan killed more people?"

 

exactly. you need to make that distinction.

 

"How many people must Bastila kill before she is condemned to death too?"

 

a lot more. Bastila, Bandon, Juhani, Jolee, Yuthura, Uthar, Atton, Handmaiden, Disciple, Mira, Kreia, Visas, Bao Dur, and a whack of dark jedi, could spend their entire lives just slaughtering people, and heck, we could even add all of the virtual people i've killed in video games throughout my entire life, and we'd NEVER, EVER come even close to Revan's body count.

[SilentScope001]

That is a completely unfounded statement. There is nothing in KotOR to suggest the masters knew of the true Sith, nor can there be, since the true Sith are never mentioned in KotOR but only in TSL.

 

Bastila said to me, we know something was out there, we were afraid we would be corrupted, so we left.

 

Besides, how can you possibly claim this, when in the very same post above you also say: "The Mandalorians was a trap, however, set by the True Sith (possibly, could be declared uncanon)"

 

Because it came from cut content. So it could be declared uncanon. I doubt it, but it could.

 

If it is still possible to declare this uncanon, then how you possibly establish that the masters possibly knew anything?!?

 

Because it makes little sense that they would declare it uncanon.

 

Sorry, but IMHO you're contradicting yourself.

 

No I am not.

 

And second, even if you were right and the masters knew - and that is no admission, just speculation - then the masters' "choice" to stay put makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is actually completely insane, since the Mandalorians are already ravaging the republic. As they do so on the outer rim, the Republic and its fleet grows weaker and weaker as the jedi refuse to act. But not only is are they just letting the Republic bleed ships and people, they are also splitting their order with their inactivity. Revan and Malak carried the banner, yes, but the other padawans still made their own choice to follow them. So by doing nothing the masters have managed to (1) let the Republic lose resources in the outer rim, (2) allowed the Republic fleet to suffer great losses by not helping them, and (3) forced a split inside the order itself. Now, are either of these outcomes going to be benefits or hinderances when the time does come to fight the true Sith? In that case the masters are just completely stupid. I prefer to see them as just arrogant and uncaring.

 

Well, want an arrognat and uncaring Jedi Order? Here it is. The Republic is meaningless. The Jedi are the only thing that mattered. So what if planets go ka-boom, if a Jedi fall to the Dark Side, that is far more important?

 

And the Republic would have won anyway. So why risk Jedi, why risk valuable Jedi from falling to the DS?

 

Because in the end, what does it matter that the masters knew of the true Sith, if there is no Republic left to fight them by the time they reveal themselves? I've seen better strategic planning by three-year-olds playing RISK... Because that's just stupid, stupid, stupid!

 

Well, if the enemy is attacking you with a small force, and then if you attack, all your men join up with the enemy...then it might be wise not to go and futiley defend the attack.

 

That's not exactly what Kreia says, though.

 

Kreia: "But that is my belief, since I knew Revan from long ago... as a master knows their apprentice.Revan had a mother and father, parents, ancestors, like all Jedi do. And when he awakened to his potential, I was there to see it.But where he was born, where he came from, I do not know... anymore than I know where he walks now. Some said that Revan was born in the Outer Regions, beyond the Rim, and that's what called to him during the Mandalorian Wars... and after.It was the call of home."

 

In short, it is speculation and even Kreia admits that she does not know.

 

Then why in the world did Kreia uttered it? To confuse us?

 

As for "leaving the order" it is also unclear which time is being referred to...

 

Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each.But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

 

KotOR always left me with the impression that Revan left because the jedi would not act against the Mandalorians, and nothing in TSL has changed that view. Nor is it likely to, since Revan's motives is one area that neither game does not dictate anything about - Revan is the player's character, and so it is your own choice what his/her reasons were.

 

...If Revan is the player's character, then why are we supposed to have this discussion in the first place?

 

Those who want Revan to be executed will think of him as a bastard. Those who want Revan to be spared see him as a hero.

 

You seem to be suggesting, however, that Revan was already on the verge of embracing the dark side even before the Mandalorian Wars, and that he left for the wars only as a pretext. If that is so, then where is the evidence?

 

"How best to leave the order" sounds good enough an evidence. Disciple's comment that before he left the order, he went to his first master, which was Kreia.

 

Of course the Sith are corrupt. The difference is that the Sith have no pretenses about being otherwise. Nor are they held back back by moral or ethical codes.

 

ED was saying that Revan's empire was supposed to be great, hence me stating that it really won't be, due to the fact that the Sith Empire would still be corrupt...

 

Because you need to do something, and what will you do. In this case I'd say the manager might possibly take a DS hit (though I doubt it) by taking the bribe, but Revan takes the hit if he robs him of his free will. Besides, a bribe is a "grey" act. It's the sort of thing Jolee might do without a second thought, and he has not been corrupted by it, even though the masters would not approve, since it is not a clear LS act.

 

Okay.

 

Doesn't make it good, either. Corruption rarely being a sign a good behavior.

 

Sure it is. Depends on your intentions.

 

Senator: "I'm raising funds to help cure cancer! Buy my vote today and aid in cancer research!"

 

This senator is a stupid senator. But he is raising money to cure cancer, and curing cancer is far more important than the fear that he might be tained with money.

 

And if the Republic is ineffective, the corruption is totally meaingless. So what if H.R. Bill 592/A/Zeta gets passed which "endorses" the act of following the law? Nothing. In fact, in this case, selling your vote might be better...why let a vote go to waste?

 

"Nemo... patriam quia magna est amat, sed quia sua."

 

Roughly translated: "No one loves his country because it is great but because it is his."

 

If that is not so, then there is little basis for the Genoharadan.

 

The Genoharadan were not loyal to his country. They were the Internal Security of Xim the Despot of the Tion Hegaomony, and yet after Xim got killed, they soon joined up with the Republic...who are a rival power to Tion. "Loyalty", bah!

====

This is getting absurd. We got ourselves a good delimma. Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic? And we are ruining it over something so trival! Both sides want to go and argue for Revan's redemeption or murder, etc.?

 

Jediphile states that each Revan is our own. If so, then so be it. Let your Revan bask in the glory of being a savior, and let my Revan run away from the lynch mobs.

[Nancy Allen``]

But you are Revan, you committed many of his acts. Shouldn't you stand trial? Besides which Malek is a butcher compared to Malek, that's established fact. What about those who served with him? Better yet what about Vader? Did he deserve redemption? After a quarter of a century of killing? How long was Darth Revan at it? Two years? Did Revan kill Younglings? Where are you getting your numbers from in any case? Have you some secret source that tells exactly how many Revan had killed?

[EnIgmA_XX]

But you are Revan, you committed many of his acts. Shouldn't you stand trial? Besides which Malek is a butcher compared to Malek, that's established fact. What about those who served with him? Better yet what about Vader? Did he deserve redemption? After a quarter of a century of killing? How long was Darth Revan at it? Two years? Did Revan kill Younglings? Where are you getting your numbers from in any case? Have you some secret source that tells exactly how many Revan had killed?

 

i didn't kill that many people. actually, i've killed NONE. Malak is already dead, and yes, Vader is also a mass murderer and as so gets thrown into the "should've been executed" folder. but then, he's dead too, so that's moot as well. my numbers are IMO, but both you and me would be fools to say that Revan was anything short of a mass murderer.

[Nancy Allen``]

Vader was redeemed however. Shouldn't he have? Shouldn't the Republic be greatful for Revan saving them from the Mandalorians and Malek and the Sith rather that going 'ZOMG WTF REVAN IZ TEH MURDERER HE MUST DIE!1!!11ONE!1!!11ELEVEN!1!!11?' Besides which seeking vengence and revenge leads to the dark side. Would you become what you prosecute to satisfy your lust for vengence?

[Allronix]

Since we are so desperate to have Revan executed we should look at others who should be held to task. Malak would top the list, why not him?

 

Malak at the end of the game is dead. So is Saul (and I don't know about you, but in my games, Carth's ALWAYS the trigger man on that), and so are Bandon and Nord.

 

As for Revan's party, I'll cover it again...

 

Carth - Probably the only one let off the hook. He's an ordinary Republic soldier with a spotless record. The Republic is hard up for loyal officers, and he has additional sympathy votes for being from Telos, which has apparantly become the Republic's equivilent of the World Trade Center. However, he still will have some guilt by association because of Saul and Revan. If Revan's female, folks will probably call him a Sith's whore when they think they're out of earshot.

 

Mission - she's a Twi'lek female, a minor, and a street rat. No one will care.

 

Zaalbar - He's from a (then) obscure species. He can't speak in a way you can understand unless you're an amazing polyglot, a protocol droid, or really patient. Again, no one will really care. However, Kashyyyk would offer amnesty to an LS Revan.

 

Bastila - Might be cut a little slack because of the Battle Meditation helping the Republic. However, she's also the Jedi poster girl. Force help her if word about her snit as Malak's apprentice got out. Even if they did the easy spin and chalked it up to duress, the Jedi already have a bad rep.

 

Canderous - Um, he wasn't a low-level grunt in the Mandalorian Wars. He seems to have been pretty high in the pecking order. After the War, he was a top enforcer for an Exchange crime boss, and he's mostly unrepentant for the carnage he's left behind him. He'll be the runner-up prize in the "execute Revan" bid.

 

Juhani - Well, she's proven herself a stellar Jedi on the trip, but someone wanting blood could spin the kath hounds and Quatra's injuries into asking for a murder trial. Plus, with the name of the Jedi being mud, it's guilt by association.

 

Jolee - Has an airtight alibi for sitting out the Mandalorian Wars, and hasn't really done anything too outrageous since Exar Kun's War. They only might imprison him.

 

HK-47 & T3-M4 - they're droids, property. Mindwipe them both. T3-M4 can probably be put to work as a normal utility droid, but HK would end up on a scrap heap.

 

Fair? Not really. However, mob mentality supplants true Justice with alarming frequency.

[SilentScope001]

Vader was redeemed however.

 

Saving a 'farmboy' isn't exactly redemeption, in my eyes.

 

Shouldn't the Republic be greatful for Revan saving them from the Mandalorians and Malek and the Sith rather that going 'ZOMG WTF REVAN IZ TEH MURDERER HE MUST DIE!1!!11ONE!1!!11ELEVEN!1!!11?'

 

Of course they should be greatful. That doesn't mean they should give him a blank check. If, as indications point out, Revan does this same thing again, maybe Revan should be killed, as a precautionary measure.

 

I'm advocating for mindrape. It's the most humane form of punishment, and it also keeps Revan alive, so that the lesson be learnt: Never, ever go and raise an army to destroy the Republic.

 

Besides which seeking vengence and revenge leads to the dark side. Would you become what you prosecute to satisfy your lust for vengence?

 

I am not lusting for vengence. Enigma might, but not me.

 

I just want Revan to get some sort of punishment for his crime. Couldn't we just pass a bill in the Republican Senate saying: "Revan, you've been a naughty boy. Don't do naughty stuff again!"

[Nancy Allen``]

Vader, or properly Anakin, appeared with Obi Wan and Yoda. He was redeemed. Unless you want to play 'Han shoots first.'

 

You want Revan to be punished. Ever heard of Captain Ahab?

[SilentScope001]

Vader, or properly Anakin, appeared with Obi Wan and Yoda. He was redeemed. Unless you want to play 'Han shoots first.'

 

I won't call it redemeption. You can, George Lucas can, you all can, but I won't.

 

You want Revan to be punished. Ever heard of Captain Ahab?

 

Listen. The Republic won't kill him. The mob won't kill him. The Jedi won't kill him. All of Star Wars won't kill him. In the begining of this topic, I say, fine, who cares, Revan's alive, let him be alive, the end.

 

Then, however, I realize two things:

1. Revan may commit the same crimes again. Jediphile's storyline indicates that. He may fall to the DS again, meaning...his redemeption was stupid. It does not count. Revan MAY BE A THREAT to the Republic again.

 

2. Where's the deterrence? If a person commits a crime, he can easily bump his head against the wall and lose his memory and therefore be able to live life as normal. Sith Lords would be laughing. And not only that, but they can FAKE losing their memory. So much for justice...criminals can easily get off by abusing this loophole.

 

And I know of Captain Ahab. This is different...yet oddly similar. Revan did not harm me personally. He did not kill my family members, did not blow my planet up.

 

But Revan is a total idiot in TSL. Obisidan's True Sith plotline is great...but they ruined Revan in the process, by making him look like a crazy and stupid loon. The whole plotline was fanboyish. So, any love for Revan I have did disapper.

 

I am not Capitan Ahab however. Capitan Ahab was mad because Moby Dick harmed him. I am not mad at Revan at all. Just disappointed. I don't want punishment for the sake of punishment. There is a means behind the ends.

 

And I have not called for execution as some of the Prosecution has done. I want him to live, because he is a useful tool. But, he deserves punishment, only to deter others from doing the exact same crimes. A mindrape should suffice.

[Jediphile]

Whoah, guys, you're totally not seeing the reason why Revan deserves to die, huh? first, Malak, Saul, Bandon, and Calo Nord are dead. it's moot. and out of Juhani, Bastila, Canderous, Mission, and I, which of us has killed over 3 thousand people? hmm, what is that? it's silence. that's right, nobody in that list (exept Malak and Saul, but as i said, they're dead) tops 3 thou. NOBODY. now, how many did Revan kill? several Billion, perhaps?

 

"Bastila just fell to the dark side and used her powers against the Republic, then she was redeemed. Yet nobody is calling for her execution? Why not? Because she killed less people? How is she any less bad than Revan? Because Revan killed more people?"

 

exactly. you need to make that distinction.

 

"How many people must Bastila kill before she is condemned to death too?"

 

a lot more. Bastila, Bandon, Juhani, Jolee, Yuthura, Uthar, Atton, Handmaiden, Disciple, Mira, Kreia, Visas, Bao Dur, and a whack of dark jedi, could spend their entire lives just slaughtering people, and heck, we could even add all of the virtual people i've killed in video games throughout my entire life, and we'd NEVER, EVER come even close to Revan's body count.

 

In that case I'll rephrase Picard's point:

 

"How many people does it take before it becomes wrong, huh? 1000? 50000? A million? How many people does it take?!"

 

You can't scale it on the number of people once you go beyond two or three. Basically you're saying that it's "more ethical" to kill a thousand people instead of ten thousand. But that's not right IMHO, because murder is wrong. Period! Besides, do we know how many people Revan killed? I mean, really killed - as in personally? People like Karath and Malak were nasty enough in their own right, so it reasonable to blame Revan for the people they killed as well?

 

So what if Bastila killed "only" a few hundred people? That's still a mind-bogglingly high number, and unlike Revan she did not try to make up for it by fighting evil afterwards.