experience

[Rockstar]

Hey all,

 

Did anybody here agree with me that the way experience was gained in this game wasn't the best?

 

Ok, i loved the leveling system, but on replay, to get a high level character you must disarm EVERY SINGLE mine, kill EVERY SINGLE random enemy and pick EVERY SINGLE lock.

 

Games like Baldur's Gate and such, you would ALWAYS reach the XP cap, or come so darn close even if you did the bare minimum. The difference was that doing those extra things meant you would become powerful faster. But you would eventually reach that final power no matter what you did.

 

I don't think that you level up too slow because the game is very easy any way. I do think it is silly how much trivial things like picking locks and disarming mines actually acount for a significant proportion of experience in the game when it should really not even compare to killing enemies.

 

Conclusion, on replay, i don't wanna worry about lesser enemies, locks and mines and i believe that if one does enough quests in the lower levels, i should be able to cut doors open without feeling guilty because locks and mines, at the end of the game, make up a considerable proportion of XP.

[Jediphile]

Well, yes and no. If you're running a game like TSL, where level progression is firmly dictated by the acquisition of xp, which is in turn given primarily by killing the opposition and less so by specific other actions, then there really isn't much choice, since the game has to offer relevant challenges as the character progresses through the levels.

 

It was the same in KotOR1, where you would have about level 8 in whatever class you began as once you reached Dantooine and became a jedi. And it was a bigger problem in KotOR, since the PC needs force powers to survive the game and so must reach Dantooine at a point in the plot, where he/she can still gain a fair amount of levels, considering that the game caps the progression at level 20. This is less of a consideration in TSL, where taking a prestige class at level 15 is really just optional.

 

Still, you can "cheat" the progression in TSL, if you want to. I needed specific feats to defeat the handmaidens sisters, so I needed a level or two more than the game was going to give me at that point. Solution? Plant a lot of mines, leave the map, then go back and recover them. Instant xp gain. Or you can exploit the infinitely respawning Hssiss in the tomb on Korriban as many do. I think I gained ten or twelve levels there, even though I was playing LS.

 

Besides, there really isn't much reason to aim for the level 50 cap, I never took any of my characters above level 43, because there was just no reason to. Generally the game lets you take about level 27 if you don't exploit xp options, and by then you've already seen most of the force powers and feats in the game. After that you only push the power level, but it's pointless since it rises for the opposition as well, and so you won't any particular change in the game. IMHO it's worthwhile to pursue only if there are still specific feats or powers that you haven't taken yet.

 

Whether we like it or not, we're stuck with this system, I think. Blame it on the d20 idea of converting xp into levels in a very rigid class/level-based system. I'd much rather have an entirely skill-based system like the d6-system of the WEG's Star Wars RPG. But KotOR is loosely based on WOTC's d20 Star Wars system, so I think we're stuck with that. I'll spare you the "I don't like class/level-based systems"-rant this time around, though. I think people have already heard me go on about that enough.

[EnIgmA_XX]

i agree that i don't like the style of xp gaining in KOTOR and TSL.

 

my view on good xp gaining is that:

 

1.there should be an at least decently high level cap (20 levels is NOT enough)

2. you shouldn't be able to reach the cap at the end of the game if you do one in every 12 side quests, like i did in KOTOR.

3. you should nevertheless always be somewhere decently close to the cap, if there is one. in TSL, the furthest i ever got without using gliches, the combat arena mod, etc. was level 28 halfway through the Ravager. then i stopped.

4. to get to the cap, you do every available side quest you have, and then grind levels for a tiny bit of time

5. even if the lvl cap is screwed up, a super high lvl cap is better than too low

 

TSL and KOTOR didn't have these qualities, but this is what i'd like to have in KOTOR 3

[stoffe]

Did anybody here agree with me that the way experience was gained in this game wasn't the best?

 

Ok, i loved the leveling system, but on replay, to get a high level character you must disarm EVERY SINGLE mine, kill EVERY SINGLE random enemy and pick EVERY SINGLE lock.

 

Is getting a high level character a goal in itself? Just because there is a level cap doesn't mean you must reach it for the gameplay experience to be complete, in my opinion.

 

It doesn't really matter to gameplay, you can win anyway regardless of your level since the vast majority of all opponents are scaled to your level. The only thing you gain from higher level that I can think of is more feats and force powers, but you'll only use a few of those most of the time anyway, so that's not essential.

 

* * *

 

I prefer XP/leveling systems where you get no XP for killing individual enemies, but rather where you get XP for achieving goals and completing tasks. That leaves more room for alternative solutions to encounters and quests than just head-on aggression to maximize your gain.

[Jae Onasi]

I like it in VtMB where you can get extra XP for completing a quest in a creative way that doesn't involve killing everything in sight. It made for very different play at times.

[Jediphile]

I prefer XP/leveling systems where you get no XP for killing individual enemies, but rather where you get XP for achieving goals and completing tasks. That leaves more room for alternative solutions to encounters and quests than just head-on aggression to maximize your gain.

 

Agreed. When I run tabletop RPGs, I give out xp for killing opponents, but I also give out vastly large story goal awards in xp. This encourages better role-playing, since xp gains are based on what choices the players take rather than simple body-count. I also keep the xp total of characters secret from the players to avoid speculation in level advancement by killing random monsters and so. If a player has enough xp to rise in levels (for D&D), he/she will know so only if I tell him/her.

 

KotOR, however, is very much a d20 game, where a large body count equals xp galore. And at times the xp awards for completing side-quests are so laughably low that if I played for only xp instead of plot, then I probably wouldn't bother. It's simply much easier to exploit the respawning Hssiss bug on Korriban 35 times than it is explore alternate conversation paths and options with various characters on Citadel station

[Jae Onasi]

Well, I imagine you could mod that then--shouldn't be too hard to change it a bit to minimize the xp for killing bad guys and create/give extra xp for finishing quests.

[Jediphile]

Generally I don't mod games if I don't have to. Besides, even if I did, that still wouldn't change the fact that I find the structure boring as it was written... in either game. I clearly played both games for the plot and not for the game system. Indeed, I played in spite of the game system.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Well, I imagine you could mod that then--shouldn't be too hard to change it a bit to minimize the xp for killing bad guys and create/give extra xp for finishing quests.

 

really? how?

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Well, it can tire a bit sometimes. But you don't really have to level up if you don't want to. As you said, the game is easy.

[Rockstar]

I never cheat for XP, there is no need what so ever. NPC's level up when inactive and no enemy is difficult.

 

what level do you think you would end up if you avoided every mine, sliced open every door and only killed 90% of enemies??

 

to me that is a realistic and fun game.

 

**Visas and the Exile are running through a corridore. The exile stops**

 

Visas: "Hurry exile! The galaxy is at stake!"

 

Exile: "Hush Visas! I first I must pick these locked boxes."

 

Visas: "But there's nothing in them!"

 

Exile: "Shhh! ...Now start disarm those mines over there..."

 

Visas: "They aren't in our way though?! We are Jedi, we only need our lightsaber."

*throws her hands in the air*

 

Exile: *keeps picking at lock*

 

Visas: "*sigh* Why are you our leader...?"

[Jae Onasi]

really? how?

 

Well, I don't know how to mod myself, but if you decrease the amount of xp given for each soldier or cannon-fodder Sith, and increase the xp given for the quests you complete (or even add in a script that gives you xp for accomplishing a certain task like getting from your ship to Trayus academy), it can make play very different. You can still hack-and-slash your way through, but you now can also try to, say, resolve the conflict between Vaklu and Talia more peacefully instead of killing everything that moves. It means that you can try to use persuasion or even sneaking to get through something instead of just running in with sabers flying.

[Prime]

These games would definitely benefit from awarding comparable XP for achieving certain goals in different, non-violent ways. Sneaking through a ship to reach your objective should count the same as killing everyone on board. It would certainly help the roleplaying factor.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

These games would definitely benefit from awarding comparable XP for achieving certain goals in different, non-violent ways. Sneaking through a ship to reach your objective should count the same as killing everyone on board. It would certainly help the roleplaying factor.

 

 

Oh yeah. The way it is now, I rarely spend any point at all on my stealth skills. Only scouts and the sort have any benefit by using it, with that extra-damage of theirs.

[Rockstar]

I guess what i mean is that there should be a cap and it should be easily attainable so that a player who ignores most 'bonus' methods of XP gain (locks, mines and subquests) should still reach it by the time you reach malacore.

 

See my above post play for an example for why i think it is necessary lol

[Prime]

But isn't that kind of like saying you want all the experience but don't want to earn it?

[Robb Stark]

No matter how much extra XP you gain, I'm pretty certain you can't get above level 30 without exploiting either respawns or some other mutiple XP "trick." The highest I've ever been able to achieve by the Trayus Core is level 29, about halfway to level 30, and that was getting every XP I could think of. By comparison, the first time I played the game I didn't try to get that extra XP and wound up at level 26. Basically, thanks to the XP-scaling when you kill enemies (which is where the overwhelming majority of your XP comes from) by the end of the game the difference in "power" betwen one who gets every XP point everywhere and one who plays normally--progressing through the game with the intent to just complete most of the quests however they can--is not huge--though early on the difference is magnified.

 

Anyway, forget even about the game's easiness, err, difficulty...your characters' should be close to "completely developed" in the early 20s in the sense that almost every feat and Force Power you use, every skill point you need for slicing/repairing/unlocking/de-mining, should be achieved long before you reach the end of the game. I mean, by level 25, a Consular-Master/Lord has nearly wasted all choices of aligned and neutral Force Powers, and is on the brink of having to choose those of the opposite alignment. Even the non-PC party members should have the full compliment of feats and powers they rely on at least 90% of the time. And usually a combat-based Jedi will be selecting powers they almost never, if not absolutely never, use by the end of the game. There are a few exceptions (like the horribly gimped HK), but it holds for the most part IMO.

 

On the other hand, I guess I see how having a character that can kill every enemy in the game with one hit of their 80-120 damage +30AB 1337saber makes somebody cool, or furthermore, spamming ForceWave to kill everything in one shot (a trick ForceStorm can nearly pull off without any cheating/modding) that drains 25 of their 314,159 Force Points.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

On the other hand, I guess I see how having a character that can kill every enemy in the game with one hit of their 80-120 damage +30AB 1337saber makes somebody cool, or furthermore, spamming ForceWave to kill everything in one shot (a trick ForceStorm can nearly pull off without any cheating/modding) that drains 25 of their 314,159 Force Points.

 

 

That was soooo boring at the end of Kotor 2. It made the game look like an ordinary hack-'n-slash...

[Jediphile]

That was soooo boring at the end of Kotor 2. It made the game look like an ordinary hack-'n-slash...

 

Agreed. A hackfest is not my idea of fun, especially not when it has munchin fanboy written all over it...

 

TSL fared very badly in design toward the end - all of entire Malachor V was one long and boring hackfest, and it wasn't even spooky or beautifully rendered, just dull and repetitive - enter room, ForceWave, Force storm, Force Storm, repeat if anyone still alive. If not, move onto next room, repeat process.......

 

At the end of the game, the plot was definitely TSL's only redeeming feature, because the game design was terrible. Never thought I'd be that thankful for Kreia...

[Rockstar]

But isn't that kind of like saying you want all the experience but don't want to earn it?

 

No completely not the case.

 

In games like Baldur's Gate, you could reach the XP Cap between half and three quarters through if you did all the quests and picked all locks, etc. If you chose to simply follow the story line you would still reach the cap.

 

What the hell does picking every lock and disarming every mine have to do with the story and why should it make such a high percentage of available XP in the game Prime? I would be interested to see what level you would get to without picking 'out of the way' locks and disarming any mines.

 

To Prime,

By the way, to end your long arguement with me about whether or not complete lightsiders can use the force on living things (which you refused to think was possible), just watch episode 3. Yoda PUSHES the empiror. Case closed. You could say his life was in danger? Every battle places a life in danger! Light siders can use the force in battle but chose not to zap or choke because it is using the force to inflict heavy pain, a way the force should not be used. this is imo