Did Kreia Lie about the Force Bond?

[Son of Skywalker15]

Recently, after playing The Sith Lords again I really wanted to get some knowledge about force bonds. In the first Kotor Revan and Bastila have a bond, yet Revan isn't hurt when Bastila is tortured. However, The Exile is hurt when Kreia's hand was cut off, and was told by Kreia it was the bond. Was Kreia lying? I mean, you don't die when you kill her ( I heard that in cut-content you learn that force bonds are cut if one falls to the darkness; a possible reason. This isn't the first time I've thought about this, and it's certainly not the first time I've noticed it, but it's bugging me a bit. What do you guys think?

[Emperor Devon]

Most Force bonds aren't as strong as the one Kreia shared with the Exile. While they can transmit feelings and intertwine the fates of the people bonded, telepathy and shared pain were mostly unheard of. Having a "nomral" bond, Revan was unaffected by Bastila's torture.

 

I think Kreia's betrayal of the Exile and subsequent return to the dark side was what cut their bond, though some other cut content provides a more plausible answer IMO (since she'd been a darksider throughout the whole game). Originally the bond was supposed to have been formed by Kreia as a way to be stuck to the Exile, and during the scene in the enclave she was supposed to have cut it herself, apparently being aware of how to go about doing that the whole time. Another of her secrets...

[Son of Skywalker15]

That makes sense. Kreia probably used to the force to intensify their bond, considering she wanted to learn from the Exile... Ironically, learn about how to live without the force.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Remember also what Kreia says after you tell her of the pain you felt after her hand was cut: If she could, she would have shielded the Exile from it.

[Robb Stark]

I think Kreia had a knowledge of Force bonds that far exceeded that of perhaps anyone.

 

When you ask Zez Kai-Ell about removing your bond he states:

 

"It was rumored that Revan studied such bonding deeply, both through the Jedi histories and with certain teachers, before he left the Order and went to war."

 

Kreia was a Jedi historian. She says as much when asked about her connection to Atris. What Revan learned from the Jedi histories, it makes a degree of sense that Kreia may have learned as well. More importantly, "certain teachers" almost certainly means Kreia IMO.

 

It would not surprise me to discover that Kreia had knowledge of how to force a bond with the Exile of such strength that she would feel strong physical sensations through the bond. Or perhaps the bond she forced on the Exile was magnified by the Exile's own talent at forming strong bonds with great ease.

 

Basically, Kreia needed the bond to tie the Exile to her until she got what she wanted...answers, an apprentice strong enough to destroy those who betrayed her, whatever. If there was any truth to the bond being fatal (I do think that while the bond was unusually strong, that bit of knowledge was likely a lie on Kreia's part), and even if not, Kreia may have willingly severed the bond at Dantooine. If she had as much knowledge of bonds as the game implies, she likely knew what could be done to end them. It could have been something as simple as a betrayal. Who knows.

 

From a dialogue file--a passage that I think may have been cut:

 

"Perhaps the Lost Jedi know a technique to cut such a link - {pause}I do not. To sever such a connection is not as simple as the Jedi casting out one of their own."

 

Note the -pause- in there. As in the pause before one is about to tell a lie? Possibly.

 

At any rate, unless I'm mistaken, the Force Chain ability no longer functioned at the Trayus Core, so the bond was likely gone or weakend enough before the final battle as to be of no consequence any longer.

[SilentScope001]

Originally the bond was supposed to have been formed by Kreia as a way to be stuck to the Exile, and during the scene in the enclave she was supposed to have cut it herself, apparently being aware of how to go about doing that the whole time. Another of her secrets...

 

Hm. I don't think that scene would be considered canon, as one of the reasons that The Exile had to flee to Malachor V was to stop Kreia from killing herself at the heart of Malachor V, and in the process, killing The Exile as well. In the DS cutscene as well, Kreia says: "The bond remains, but I shall teach you no longer." Then again, this is Kreia we are talking about here.

 

If you question Vrook about the Force Bond, he'll say it to you bluntly that whomever was saying it to you was a liar, so it is just as likely as other theories surronding the Force Bond.

 

Zek also points out that if 2 people have a bond, and one person cuts it off, it leaves an empty wound in the Force. What if the Bond actually remains? What if Kreia dies, not harming you, but leaving a wound in the Force? What if this was Kreia's plan, to kill herself to create a huge wound, greater than the wound of Malachor V?

 

"Perhaps the Lost Jedi know a technique to cut such a link - {pause}I do not. To sever such a connection is not as simple as the Jedi casting out one of their own."

 

Should it be called True Sith or something to that effect? I mean, having Kreia talk about the Lost Jedi having such power seems...werid, since the Lost Jedi include people like Mira, Visas, Atton, and Bao-Dur...people who seem to be pretty ignorant and stupid about the Force.

[Son of Skywalker15]

Hm. I don't think that scene would be considered canon, as one of the reasons that The Exile had to flee to Malachor V was to stop Kreia from killing herself at the heart of Malachor V, and in the process, killing The Exile as well. In the DS cutscene as well, Kreia says: "The bond remains, but I shall teach you no longer." Then again, this is Kreia we are talking about here.

 

If you question Vrook about the Force Bond, he'll say it to you bluntly that whomever was saying it to you was a liar, so it is just as likely as other theories surronding the Force Bond.

 

Zek also points out that if 2 people have a bond, and one person cuts it off, it leaves an empty wound in the Force. What if the Bond actually remains? What if Kreia dies, not harming you, but leaving a wound in the Force? What if this was Kreia's plan, to kill herself to create a huge wound, greater than the wound of Malachor V?

 

 

 

Should it be called True Sith or something to that effect? I mean, having Kreia talk about the Lost Jedi having such power seems...werid, since the Lost Jedi include people like Mira, Visas, Atton, and Bao-Dur...people who seem to be pretty ignorant and stupid about the Force.

 

Perhaps. However, it seems the Exile would have nature instincts within the force, and stop the wound. Actually, they become more and more aware of the force as you travel with them. They often discuss you using your force powers, and I've even been asked questions by Atton and Mira. But that's the dark side ending, and now doubt the light side will be/is the canon ending.

[SilentScope001]

Perhaps. However, it seems the Exile would have nature instincts within the force, and stop the wound. Actually, they become more and more aware of the force as you travel with them. They often discuss you using your force powers, and I've even been asked questions by Atton and Mira. But that's the dark side ending, and now doubt the light side will be/is the canon ending.

 

Bah, silly canon. Obisidan painted themselves in a corner when they let Revan's alignment be set by the player (and what a great corner they painted themselves in, for people love to replay the KOTOR series to see what happens when the alignment of certain characters can change...), so in essence, we decide what happens in my own game. So, if I want a DSM Revan and a DSM Exile, I can have it. LSM Revan and LSM Exile, so be it. LSM Revan, and DSF Exile, here we go. It is simple for them to do, just have it change a few words and justification, and everything is fine.

 

It just sound strange that Obisidan thought of giving the Lost Jedi such strange power. It is Cut content though, so it does not mean much.

[Son of Skywalker15]

I agree that it's pretty strange for the "Lost Jedi" to get such as power. Mical probably knows more about the bond then her lets on...

[GeorgNihilus]

Well... considering Kreia recognized in Malachor she "used" the Exile from the same encounter in Peragus mining facility, she could have lied about the difficulty of cutting the bond... while learning more (and teaching) about the Exile's powers and abilities...

Still, if I recall right, in Malachor encounter Kreia said the link already existed, may be just to defend herself from the Exile in that final battle... no much sense for me to persist lying about this if she was anyway facing to death the Exile (while go on lying about this if you're gonna kill the Exile??) or is it that she didn't want to kill him/her??- Mmmm...

While the bond between them does not exist in Malachor V (demostrated by the fact that the Force Chain power doesn't work there) it bothers a little that Kreia as Darth Traya never mentioned it to the Exile before fighting him/her... (I would have added it to the dialog...)

And I don't agree with the fact that the bond was severed on Dantooine Academy, cause you can use the force chain power between them till the end of the game... right? So the bond should have been severed by Kreia's betrayal or whatever in Malachor itself... or where you lose that power... I suppose it was there.

[Jediphile]

I think Kreia had a knowledge of Force bonds that far exceeded that of perhaps anyone.

 

When you ask Zez Kai-Ell about removing your bond he states:

 

"It was rumored that Revan studied such bonding deeply, both through the Jedi histories and with certain teachers, before he left the Order and went to war."

 

Yes, but just before what you quote here, he also says:

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "such bonds are a connection that can be formed at moments of crisis - or in the slow understanding that grows between master and apprentice.It is most common between two beings who are sensitive to the Force. It allows the transmission of feelings, of influence. {Musing}It was something you were gifted with, as I recall, before your fall. You formed such attachments easier than most - even to those who could feel the Force only faintly. {Rueful}Even Vrook could not ignore it, which is saying something. {Frowns}That is most unusual - and unnatural. I have never heard of a bond of such strength. There were a few within the Order who knew more than I did of such bonds - but their students were few, lost in the Mandalorian Wars."

 

Clearly the bond between Kreia and the Exile is very unique. Or consider the cut comments by master Vash:

 

Vash: "It is a normal occurrence between Master and Padawan. Kaah and I are bonded.It is a normal occurrence between Master and Padawan. Kaah and I were bonded.Most of the Jedi have scattered. Anytime the Jedi tried to assemble, they were massacred by the Sith. We had no idea where the attacks were coming from.{smiles}I dislike passivity. Much like another Jedi I know. With the Council's support, I decided to take the fight to the Sith.You should consider what it means to be a Jedi.{slightly sadly}This victory here is all I can claim, and it was Kaah's expertise, not mine, that brought it. The source of the Sith remains unknown to me.I know. I felt it.He is well, but shaken by his experience.Yes, as many Masters and Padawans become with time.The bond can be broken in many ways. If one falls to the Dark Side, the bond may fade and eventually break. This is why, when gripped with fear, Kaah was unable to feel our bond. He assumed I was dead.He is dead. We were mentally bonded.Kaah was pulled to the Dark Side through his fear. He could no longer feel our bond.It is painful to lose one to whom you are bonded. But it is not fatal.{concerned}That is most unnatural. This bond you share with Kreia is not like any I've ever heard of. How did it come to be?{pensive}Look within for the answer. We are each solely accountable for everything in our lives. Nothing ever happens to us unless we allow it."

 

Again, we see that the bond between Kreia and the Exile is like no other. And yes, this is the much-mentioned passage where Vash mentions that falling to the dark side can cut the bond. My problem with that is that I think Kreia was always DS, and even if she wasn't, I can play the Exile as DS as I like without affecting the force bond at all.

 

Kreia was a Jedi historian. She says as much when asked about her connection to Atris. What Revan learned from the Jedi histories, it makes a degree of sense that Kreia may have learned as well. More importantly, "certain teachers" almost certainly means Kreia IMO.

 

It would not surprise me to discover that Kreia had knowledge of how to force a bond with the Exile of such strength that she would feel strong physical sensations through the bond. Or perhaps the bond she forced on the Exile was magnified by the Exile's own talent at forming strong bonds with great ease.

 

Basically, Kreia needed the bond to tie the Exile to her until she got what she wanted...answers, an apprentice strong enough to destroy those who betrayed her, whatever.

 

I agree that Kreia probably created the bond, but not with the reasons you mention. Remember that Kreia's ultimate agenda is to kill the will of the force. And since the Exile is a wound in the force, he is the perfect weapon to use against it. Kreia even admits it in the end:

 

Traya: "But no Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force.It was a mistake to try to make you feel it again, I see that now. There is no truth in the Force. But there is truth in you, exile. And that is why I chose you.Yes, always. From the moment you awoke, I have used you. I have used you so that you might become strong, stronger than I.I used your death to deceive the Sith, to make them believe they had won, so they would turn on each other.And I used you to make those who wounded me reveal themselves, so they could be killed by the Republic. I used you to keep the Lords of the Sith from condemning the galaxy to death with their power unchecked.I used you to lure them to Telos, where they could be, at last, fought and killed. I used you to reveal Atris' corruption, so that her teachings could be ended before they began.I used you to gather the Jedi so they could be destroyed.And I used you to make those who wounded me reveal themselves, so they could be killed by the Republic. It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it.But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises."

 

If there was any truth to the bond being fatal (I do think that while the bond was unusually strong, that bit of knowledge was likely a lie on Kreia's part), and even if not, Kreia may have willingly severed the bond at Dantooine. If she had as much knowledge of bonds as the game implies, she likely knew what could be done to end them. It could have been something as simple as a betrayal. Who knows.

 

While I think Kreia created the bond, I don't think she can just remove it as she chooses. I tend to agree with SilentScope001 that her comments to the comatose DS Exile on Dantooine supports that, even in the LS game. Kreia is powerful, but I don't see her as quite that omnipotent. I think she made a sacrifice in creating the bond, as she would herself by entangled by it. But she was willing to accept that, since it was the only she could ever get revenge against her treacherous apprentices and pursue her agenda of killing the will of the force, for which uses the Exile, just as I believe she used to use Nihilus for that purpose until he turned against her.

 

From a dialogue file--a passage that I think may have been cut:

 

"Perhaps the Lost Jedi know a technique to cut such a link - {pause}I do not. To sever such a connection is not as simple as the Jedi casting out one of their own."

 

Note the -pause- in there. As in the pause before one is about to tell a lie? Possibly.

 

The confusing bit with the "lost jedi" is that to me it seems to refer to two distinct groups of people. One, as Kreia points out in the end, are the Exile's companions, who are "lost" jedi because never got the training to be jedi that they "should" have had until the exile returned to the Republic. They are the future of the jedi that was "lost" until the Exile found, united and trained them.

 

The other group of "lost jedi" would seem to be those jedi weren't killed during the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War, or even the Shadow War of Nihilus and Sion. They weren't killed, but just lost their faith and "turned off their lightsabers," as Atton puts it. Zez-Kai Ell seems to mention these disillusioned jedi:

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "Perhaps there is something wrong in us, in our teachings. And though I tried, I could not cause that thought to leave me - so I left the Council. And I was not the only one. That is why many scattered... and why many in the Republic do not trust us."

 

Even Kreia mentions these jedi specifically as "the Lost Jedi"_

 

Kreia: "And the Jedi Temple on Coruscant lies empty. The waters in the Room of a Thousand Fountains have fallen still, in reverence to the fallen Jedi... and those now lost.{Bitter, she was Revan's teacher}Many Jedi blamed the teachings of the Jedi Masters for Revan's fall... and the civil war that followed. These Jedi turned from the Jedi Order and set out to find their own truth - no one knows where these Lost Jedi travel now.Perhaps. And if they are not dead already, then their time runs short. The Sith will not spare any they find.Perhaps, but they are Jedi no longer. If the Sith have not already slain them, then they will not help you, nor can you help them."

 

At any rate, unless I'm mistaken, the Force Chain ability no longer functioned at the Trayus Core, so the bond was likely gone or weakend enough before the final battle as to be of no consequence any longer.

 

The thing that seems interesting to me that Atris tells the Exile that Kreia will kill herself and so the Exile with her, unless the Exile goes to Malachor V. This is after the Exile has defeated Atris, when she seems to come clean and tell you the truth. Both Atris and the exile seem to take this threat of suicide and the danger it presents to the exile very seriously.

 

And yes, as you say, the force chain in gone once you reach Malachor V. Somehow I think the confrontation with Nihilus has something to do with that. Of course, it could also just be an oversight in the game, since nobody wants to explain how you can kill Kreia in the end, but I somehow doubt that in a plot written by Avellone. And it is notable that it is never explained. Like several things concerning the wound, Malachor V, and the Exile's relationship with Nihilus, this is not all explained in the game, not even in the cut content.

[JawaJoey]

Bastila and Revan's bond was very different. At a "moment of crisis" they were bonded, and between them visions flowed easily.

 

The Exile was naturally talented at the other kind of bonds, and it was an un-natural natural talent, if you know what I mean. It was an exceptional, very unique skill emphasis. But even if they were much faster than normal, the Exile's bonds were always made over periods of time. The severity and nature of the Exile's bonds were completely different from the kind of thing Bastilla and Revan had.

 

 

 

Kreia knew this. She had planned all along to get close tot he Exile. To get to know her, become a teacher, a guide, so that she can make her what she wanted, and manipulate her as she wanted. With the bond skill, it was even easier, and Kreia amplified it even further by purposefully forcing and strengthening the bond (which she had a good knowledge of in general). She exploited the Exile's bond ability to create a strong bond, all as just part of her scheme to manipulate the Exile.

[PoiuyWired]

The Bastila Revan bond is just a common bond, though a really strong one. Yes, a really close master/padawan relationship or something like that might have a similar bond, like an ninja and a tree.

 

The Exile things is something entirely different, and is a really unique exception.