Sith evil?

[SilentScope001]

The Republic and the Jedi are two different things, but often work togather.

 

Exactly. But the Jedi support the Republic. If the Republic bomb Uba, then the Jedi are consenting to the massacre, because if they really hated the bombing of Uba, they should have DONE something about it...like attack the Republic. The Jedi are at the very least guilty by association for doing, well, nothing...or they may have very well supported the bombings. Absence of evidence that the Jedi were for the bombing does not mean evidence that the Jedi were against the bombings.

 

But why are you so angry at the bombing of Uba? We don't know why it was bombed at all, so it is quite likely that Uba was supporting the Dark Side or sympathizing with the Sith, therefore it was okay to bomb them. Remember, Star Wars' morality is different from our world.

***

Hi Jacen.

 

Let me make one thing clear: The only people who have said that the Sith aren't really evil are Sith themselves. Doesn't make them a good source.

 

That's posioning the well, and basically saying, "Don't trust arguments made by the Sith, they are Sith!" Same thing could be used: "Don't trust arguments made by the Jedi, they are Jedi!"

 

A better view would be Jolee's. His position as rejecting the Jedi but not siding with the Sith make him unbiased in his views toward both.

 

Uh. No. He's biased towards a third view, HIS View.

 

To quote Bastila: "How good must you be at making excuses until you stop making them at all?" Reason does not justify death and destruction when it did not need to happen.

 

I'd assume that is because Bastila was trying to recruit Jolee into the Jedi Order. Jolee had a good "reason" for leaving the Order:

 

Jolee left the Jedi Order because Jolee BROKE its laws and the Jedi Order decided not to enforce them. Jolee spared his wife, and thanks to that, his wife caused death and destruction. Jolee knew he should have killed his wife, but the Jedi Order spared him.

 

It's obivous what happened. Jolee wanted punishment, the Jedi Order forgave him. But Forgiveness is stupid. Why should someone be forgiven after he committed great crimes? Jolee felt himself to be a murderer, so he should have been punished. The fact that he was not punished showcased that the Jedi Order was corrupt, for they are willing to forget the crimes that Jolee has done.

 

To rejoin the Order would be saying that the Jedi Order was right, when it was plainly in the wrong.

 

About the nature of evil with the Force: As others have said, the "light side" is never named in the movies (Luke once did say "the good side"). Jedi don't serve the Force, it helps them. To quote Yoda, from TESB: "My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is". Whereas the Dark Side truly does put you in bondage. Vader felt trapped in servitude to his master, and believed it was useless for Luke to resist to the Dark Side, saying he didn't know its power. This suggests that the Dark Side actively subdues its users.

 

So, contrary to the statements of KOTOR, the Sith are the real slaves, and the Jedi are truly free.

 

Movie canon versus EU Canon. Or, more to the point, Author's Intention versus, well, the EU Writer's Intention.

 

I prefer Movie Canon, and I prefer Author's Intention. Other people don't. Therefore, you can't really stop their view. They are reading the Star War mythos however they want. That said, don't disregard the statments of KOTOR! It is KOTOR's "ethical hatred of Jedi" that made me tolerate Star Wars.

 

Oh, and stop making excuses! Just because someone say, "I AM FREE!"...does that mean he is free? Nope.

[Corinthian]

I'm not upset. But somebody said the Jedi had never destroyed a world, which is incorrect.

[Rogue Warrior]

The Jedi do not always support the Republic. They did not aid in the Mandalorian Wars, Revan Malek and their Jedi had to fight.

[SilentScope001]

The Jedi do not always support the Republic. They did not aid in the Mandalorian Wars, Revan Malek and their Jedi had to fight.

 

Prehaps. But then again, we know of nothing of what the Jedi did during Uba. To say that they did not fight, well, presupposes proof that they did not get involved, or that they even condmened.

 

The only thing that can solve this is have LA write a story about the campagin of Uba. But I think it's pretty minor (won't make LA enough money to justify it), so in the end, we will never know for certain.

[Jacen Stargazer]

Hi Jacen.

 

Hi to you.

 

That's posioning the well, and basically saying, "Don't trust arguments made by the Sith, they are Sith!" Same thing could be used: "Don't trust arguments made by the Jedi, they are Jedi!"

 

Well, it's true that Sith aren't as trustworthy as the Jedi. Master Uthar tricked Dustil Onasi into thinking that the Sith aren't evil. So they are not a good source for information about themselves. They want you to think the best of them, even if that's not the truth. Jedi have no problems in how they present themselves. They want you to see them for what they are.

 

Uh. No. He's biased towards a third view, HIS View.

 

True. But unlike the Sith, he wasn't talking about his own view, he was talking about the views of others.

 

Who has ever called the Sith not evil who are not Sith or Dark Jedi themselves? Virtually nobody. Whereas plenty of non-Jedi acknowledge that the Jedi are good (Not that everyone thinks the Jedi are good, but most do). If you could provide examples of an average Joe in Star Wars who thinks the Sith are good, I'll abandon this argument.

 

I'd assume that is because Bastila was trying to recruit Jolee into the Jedi Order. Jolee had a good "reason" for leaving the Order:

 

Jolee left the Jedi Order because Jolee BROKE its laws and the Jedi Order decided not to enforce them. Jolee spared his wife, and thanks to that, his wife caused death and destruction. Jolee knew he should have killed his wife, but the Jedi Order spared him.

 

It's obivous what happened. Jolee wanted punishment, the Jedi Order forgave him. But Forgiveness is stupid. Why should someone be forgiven after he committed great crimes? Jolee felt himself to be a murderer, so he should have been punished. The fact that he was not punished showcased that the Jedi Order was corrupt, for they are willing to forget the crimes that Jolee has done.

 

To rejoin the Order would be saying that the Jedi Order was right, when it was plainly in the wrong.

 

I was referring to the thread starter's background story. And the place I took the quote was from when Bastila is talking about the horrific acts of the Sith to you. Your character can say "Perhaps it's just the reasoning behind the acts you don't understand", to which she gives that answer.

 

And I acknowledged that Jolee thinks the Jedi are "too good".

 

Movie canon versus EU Canon. Or, more to the point, Author's Intention versus, well, the EU Writer's Intention.

 

I prefer Movie Canon, and I prefer Author's Intention. Other people don't. Therefore, you can't really stop their view. They are reading the Star War mythos however they want. That said, don't disregard the statments of KOTOR! It is KOTOR's "ethical hatred of Jedi" that made me tolerate Star Wars.

 

Fine, then. I was arguing with movie canon. That doesn't make my argument any less valid for those like you who prefer movie canon.

 

Oh, and stop making excuses! Just because someone say, "I AM FREE!"...does that mean he is free? Nope.

 

True. Someone locked in a dungeon could shout "I AM FREE!!!" as loud as possible, but he would still be imprisoned.

 

You have to take the circumstances, and the person's other actions, into account. In the case of Vader, he seemed to be free to deal with subjects as he wished unless his master said otherwise. But what would have happened if he had betrayed his master and the Dark Side? He would have lost his power, and would be hunted immediately. He was enslaved to evil itself. To betray his master, the Dark Side, and evil itself would have cost his life, and it did.

 

As for Yoda, he was seemed that he was trapped on Dagobah. But what if he had given into the Dark Side? The "Light" side is naturally less powerful offensively than the Dark Side. But even with the light side, he was toe-to-toe with the Emperor. If he had given into the Dark Side, he could have made the Emperor run for his money. He chose to limit himself and stay on Degobah.

[Corinthian]

Betraying your master is a core tenet of the Sith. Just about every Sith Lord murders his Master. Malak attempted to do so with Revan, Sidious with Plagueis, so on and so forth.

[SilentScope001]

Well, it's true that Sith aren't as trustworthy as the Jedi. Master Uthar tricked Dustil Onasi into thinking that the Sith aren't evil. So they are not a good source for information about themselves. They want you to think the best of them, even if that's not the truth. Jedi have no problems in how they present themselves. They want you to see them for what they are.

 

Uh...

 

You expect Jedi to be telling the truth? I don't think we can accept that at face value, since we are doubting the Jedi right now. The Jedi has done some questionable stuff, but that happened outside of the movies, so we see the problems.

 

True. But unlike the Sith, he wasn't talking about his own view, he was talking about the views of others.

 

Who has ever called the Sith not evil who are not Sith or Dark Jedi themselves? Virtually nobody. Whereas plenty of non-Jedi acknowledge that the Jedi are good (Not that everyone thinks the Jedi are good, but most do). If you could provide examples of an average Joe in Star Wars who thinks the Sith are good, I'll abandon this argument.

 

Average Joe=Atton. Hated the Jedi, liked Revan coming in to save the Republic, that why he joined up with Revan.

 

Average Joe=All the Stormtroopers that aid the Sith Empire. Especially that Catina Trooper. You have to have the grunts that the Jedi genocide.

 

You have to realize, the Dark Jedi and the Sith has a storyline. They weren't born into the thing. They started off just like us, average people, and then studied the Sith ideology and liked it. Then they made the free choice to join in. Discounting the Dark Jedi and the Sith's opinons because they are Sith or Dark Jedi are, well, wrong, since they were not always Dark Jedi and Sith. Meanwhile, the Jedi themselves have programs where you have to be in the Order since birth, so they have been "brainwashed" if you will.

 

I was referring to the thread starter's background story. And the place I took the quote was from when Bastila is talking about the horrific acts of the Sith to you. Your character can say "Perhaps it's just the reasoning behind the acts you don't understand", to which she gives that answer.

 

Could be turned around. The Jedi Order did not intervene in the Mandalorian War, and obivously people start thinking the Jedi Order are making excuses and really are moronic idiots. I don't. I think the Jedi Order have done the right think, and that "the reasoning behind the acts are not understood". But, bah, nobody cares about defending the Jedi, so oh well.

 

Reasons are needed. "Noo! Luke is a murderer because he killed Stormtroopers and attacked the Empire!" You need to remind the person that "Dudes, the Stormtroopers are evil", but without that reason, then Luke does appear to be a terrorist. You need to evaulte things based on reasons, and, in my movie canon view of Jedi, the Jedi are intelligent enough to do stuff based on reason, and the common folk do not know that.

 

Fine, then. I was arguing with movie canon. That doesn't make my argument any less valid for those like you who prefer movie canon.

 

It does invalidate your argument for those who don't like movie canon. I agree with you on all those points, but I personally don't like that story, so I don't like Star Wars as it is.

 

True. Someone locked in a dungeon could shout "I AM FREE!!!" as loud as possible, but he would still be imprisoned.

 

You have to take the circumstances, and the person's other actions, into account. In the case of Vader, he seemed to be free to deal with subjects as he wished unless his master said otherwise. But what would have happened if he had betrayed his master and the Dark Side?

 

1) If he betrayed his master, Vader would become the new Sith Lord. Simple.

2) He did betray the Dark Side, in Ep. 6. Betraying the Dark Side=Redemeption. Nothing bad happened to him.

 

He was enslaved to evil itself. To betray his master, the Dark Side, and evil itself would have cost his life, and it did.

 

Vader felt happiness for betraying the Dark Side, so everything is fine. And Vader ends up being a Force Ghost anyway. That's immortal life right there.

 

As for Yoda, he was seemed that he was trapped on Dagobah. But what if he had given into the Dark Side? The "Light" side is naturally less powerful offensively than the Dark Side. But even with the light side, he was toe-to-toe with the Emperor. If he had given into the Dark Side, he could have made the Emperor run for his money. He chose to limit himself and stay on Degobah.

 

Hm. It seems your intereprtion of movie canon is different from my intereprtion of movie canon.

 

You always have Free Will. You can choose to be Dark Side or Light Side/Natural State. Once you choose the Dark Side, you are seduced by its power and love it. You are 'enslaved' to the Dark Side, but that's because you LIKE it. It's like I'm 'enslaved' to candy because its tasy. Remember the slogan: "Power corrupts"? Well, power does corrupt.

 

It takes lot of willpower to choose to stay in the Light Side, but by forcing yourself to stay on the straight and narrow, it's not really free will but rather slavery, as you are enslaving yourself to the codes and morals that you believe will lead you to the Natural State. (Which may or may not be correct...)

 

Humans always have freedom. They have the freedom to choose their masters.

[Rev7]

Uh...

 

 

Humans always have freedom. They have the freedom to choose their masters.

Oddly enough that is actually quite true if you think about it...

[The Architect]

I have no earthly idea why anyone would continue to argue that the Sith may not be evil after I posted my post here. I don't mean to sound condescending or anything like that, by the way, but yeah, it's difficult to argue against. But, fine then, I'll make this one nice and concise. Take two:

 

Evil = morally bad.

 

And what do the Sith do? They murder, steal, torture, betray, prey on the weak and abuse their power.

 

So tell me, how the **** can anyone claim that the Sith aren't evil?

[Rogue Warrior]

Is murder evil? Is theft evil? Is torture evil? Is betrayal evil? Is preying on the weak evil? Is abuse of power evil?

[The Architect]

Oh nah, of course not...

 

I mean seriously, if you don't think those things are evil, then there's something wrong with you.

[Darth Deralia]

Is murder evil? Is theft evil? Is torture evil? Is betrayal evil? Is preying on the weak evil? Is abuse of power evil?

its not evil, its the WORST EVIL (by the way, you forgot rape)

 

but the problem is that we discuss the jedi and the sith

there are certain individual jedi that we would call evil and certain sith we would call good, we cant judge them properly

[SilentScope001]

And what do the Sith do? They murder, steal, torture, betray, prey on the weak and abuse their power.

 

Seems a bit Kantian, but well, er.

 

I personally believe the Sith are evil because George Lucas say they are evil. That is what he intended for the Sith to be. You have to let Author Intention mean something after all. Plus, what if a Sith doesn't murder, steal, tortue, betray, prey on the weak, and abuse their power? What if all the Sith do is just read books on the Dark Side, and just pratice Force Powers in a tree-like enviroment, maybe creating their own species and ruling over them justly (gaining ultimate power in the process and being smart enough not to use the ultimate power in a way that will ruin them)? I still manitan the Sith are still evil, presically because they rely on the Dark Side, and the Dark Side is innately evil, not the actions.

 

If the Light Side/Natural State of the Force say it is okay to murder, steal, torture, betray, prey on the weak and abuse their power, then it is good. It rarely does so, and only in EU books so that movie canon lovers can easily dismiss them as uncanon, but hey, it could.

[Rev7]

good point BUT i don't think that that is possible. If a "sith" did that,than technically that means he/she is NOT a sith.

[Darth Deralia]

of course i think that there would be sith doing this (why not), but not necessarily all of them

jedi shall not kill but they go to war, they shall not strike in anger but obi-wan is enraged when he kills darth maul

 

and i dont care that much about george lucas opinion: he created yar-yar binks (or whatever hes spelled), his corporation decided to cut TSL and instead of making four movies he decided to create two cartoon movies about the clone wars

[Darth Chronus]

Are the sith really evil? ....

 

Actually the Sith are Not evil, just because there is no evil.

 

Evil is a human moral code(moral codes often are based on our instincts) based on what is against the safety of humanity, as a whole, and what is not. So, people call evil what harms them and good what benefits them. In the universe there is no such a code. In universe everything is permitted.

 

And Darth Sidious was right.. so right. ''Good is a point of view(so is evil)'', ''If you wish to become a wise and complete leader, you must embrace a larger view of the force...''

 

Human ethics, prison the mind and keep humans in a recycling situation of revolutionizing, where their instincts control their moral codes.

[JoeDoe 2.0]

Seems a bit Kantian, but well, er.

 

I personally believe the Sith are evil because George Lucas say they are evil. That is what he intended for the Sith to be. You have to let Author Intention mean something after all. Plus, what if a Sith doesn't murder, steal, tortue, betray, prey on the weak, and abuse their power? What if all the Sith do is just read books on the Dark Side, and just pratice Force Powers in a tree-like enviroment, maybe creating their own species and ruling over them justly (gaining ultimate power in the process and being smart enough not to use the ultimate power in a way that will ruin them)? I still manitan the Sith are still evil, presically because they rely on the Dark Side, and the Dark Side is innately evil, not the actions.

 

If the Light Side/Natural State of the Force say it is okay to murder, steal, torture, betray, prey on the weak and abuse their power, then it is good. It rarely does so, and only in EU books so that movie canon lovers can easily dismiss them as uncanon, but hey, it could.

 

Lumiya mentioned something about a Sith Lord that did not surface to Jacen, saying that the Sith are intended to maintain order and rule only when necesary, something about measure of power....

[PoiuyWired]

Lumiya mentioned something about a Sith Lord that did not surface to Jacen, saying that the Sith are intended to maintain order and rule only when necesary, something about measure of power....

 

Well yeah, and I would take a wild wild guess of him being a survivor of the clone wars, raised like a tusken, warped in parasites, takes his name out of a cute little Tatooine pet animal, and defies the rule of two...

[The Architect]

Darth Chronus...

 

Hahahaha. Are you serious? There is no such thing as evil?

 

You mean to say it's impossible to deliberately cause great harm, pain, or misery to someone, or in other words, evil, which is basically what that means? And what is this human moral codes don't apply in the universe tripe? I mean seriously.

 

Heck, this is Star Wars, and as is evidenced by the KotOR games alone, they do have human and alien moral codes in the galaxy. Human moral codes do not imprison the mind. It's all just common sense.

 

What, you mean to say it's alright to cause harm, pain or misery to someone else without justification? Because it's not! It's evil. And hell, even with justification, save a couple exceptions {war and self defence}, it's still wrong to emotionally or physically hurt another person. Revenge is never a good reason.

 

And Darth Deralia, well, I don't think the Sith rape anybody. That's taking things to the extreme for Star Wars. I'd doubt they'd even dare touch on that issue. But yeah, I do agree that it definitely belongs in the worst kind of evil group as well, though.

[Lance Monance]

Watching the movies and playing the games makes it kinda obvious that the Sith are indeed evil.

 

But what makes someone a Sith? Using the darkside of the force? Not necessarily evil. Adhering to the Sith code? Not necessarily evil.

 

So I'd say that while most (all?) Sith seem to be evil, being Sith doesn't mean that you're evil by definition.

[Rev7]

Watching the movies and playing the games makes it kinda obvious that the Sith are indeed evil.

 

But what makes someone a Sith? Using the darkside of the force? Not necessarily evil. Adhering to the Sith code? Not necessarily evil.

 

So I'd say that while most (all?) Sith seem to be evil, being Sith doesn't mean that you're evil by definition.

Actually many people would disagree. Being "evil" is in the Sith's nature. have you ever heard of the Sith code? When you said, "Using the darkside of the force" is not nessisarily evil, do you mean using Force Plaugue or Force Choke on one is not evil? The whole purpose of the Sith is to basically rule the entire galaxy. The whole purpose of the Jedi is to aid the galaxy. Sith= EVIL!!

[Darth Chronus]

Darth Chronus...

 

Hahahaha. Are you serious? There is no such thing as evil?

 

You mean to say it's impossible to deliberately cause great harm, pain, or misery to someone, or in other words, evil, which is basically what that means? And what is this human moral codes don't apply in the universe tripe? I mean seriously.

 

From a humans' point of view, yes, an act of violence would imagine evil. But what I am trying to say is, that this act would imagine evil because it would be against the evolution of humanity. I mean that human instincts are based on the survival of the species and so does the thoughts and the moral codes humanity has.

 

Let me tell you an example: When you eat a chicken, isn't an evil act?? In fact to eat you must kill.

But humanity named murder what is bad for itself not what benefits it. If that sounds logical and fair to you...

 

...It's all just common sense.

 

What, you mean to say it's alright to cause harm, pain or misery to someone else without justification? Because it's not! It's evil. And hell, even with justification, save a couple exceptions {war and self defence}, it's still wrong to emotionally or physically hurt another person. Revenge is never a good reason.

 

If it is all just common sense then I might have the problem because I don't understand your reasoning. In fact I don't even see one.

[Gargoyle King]

I mean that human instincts are based on the survival of the species and so does the thoughts and the moral codes humanity has.

My personal opinion on this is that it has always been in man's nature to destroy each other; survival of the fittest and not necessarily survival of the species. This is evident all around us; crime, terrorism, war and shows that there will never be "world-peace" or anything of the like as man's nature just doesn't allow for this. However we do have knowledge and the sense between right and wrong of which defines us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom and i'm sure the sentient beings, human or alien, of the SW Galaxy would also have this sense of right from wrong. Therefore the "Sith" (i prefer to see them as Dark Jedi, as they aren't really true Sith) embrace the dark path often willingly and thus know that it is a path to self destruction and lust for power, meaning that anyone that comes in the way of their lust of power will get hurt. My point? The darkside is in itself inherently evil as it corrupts those who fall to it's call and thus the path of the darkside is evil making Sith EVIL. The Jedi themselves are far from saints but are no where near the caliber of the Sith, period.

[Darth Deralia]

Actually many people would disagree. Being "evil" is in the Sith's nature. have you ever heard of the Sith code? When you said, "Using the darkside of the force" is not nessisarily evil, do you mean using Force Plaugue or Force Choke on one is not evil? The whole purpose of the Sith is to basically rule the entire galaxy. The whole purpose of the Jedi is to aid the galaxy. Sith= EVIL!!

then luke skywalker is evil when hes forcechoking two gamorreans?!

very interesting point of view

 

the sith arent evil if you judge them by "evolution-point-of-view", in fact you all know that lions kill zebras and i wont judge that as evil its just the way its meant to be, the strong survive, in fact i once saw a documentation where a group of waterbuffalos? (i dont know the translation for "wasserbüffel") trampled two lonely lionbabies to death, is that evil? no they are stronger then them

the "human moral code" is in fact a necessary thing but what would have been if our ancestors would have thought that way: the greeks, romans, egyptians, babylonians, and so on?

with single exceptions the whole humanity were still barbarians, but hey we just would follow the "human moral code"

[Lance Monance]

Actually many people would disagree. Being "evil" is in the Sith's nature. have you ever heard of the Sith code? When you said, "Using the darkside of the force" is not nessisarily evil, do you mean using Force Plaugue or Force Choke on one is not evil? The whole purpose of the Sith is to basically rule the entire galaxy. The whole purpose of the Jedi is to aid the galaxy. Sith= EVIL!!

 

Yes I heard of the Sith Code. It's not inherently evil. Basically its a guide to strengthen yourself. There's nothing about "no mercy", "murder everyone", "be ruthless" in it.

 

About the Dark side, well, what's the difference exactly if someone gets force choke-killed or chopped to pieces by a lightsaber..by a jedi?

 

Tell me, what's more evil. A Jedi that defeats a criminal by killing him (suppose the criminal is skilled enough to seriously harm the jedi. In other words, the Jedi is forced to kill him if he wants to catch him). Or someone who uses force lightning to render said criminal unconscious instead, then hand him over to the authorities?

 

I agree with you though, most if not all Sith seem to be evil. And their "purpose" is definitly to be evil, since Lucas intented them to be the bad guys in Star Wars. But in EU and Kotor... I'd like to have a few shades of gray in the Black and white concept.