The Jedi Problem

[dcinroc]

Exactly. That would make people who play Jedi envied, maybe even hated. Much like actual Jedi in the series. Add in the bounties, the difficulty of becoming a jedi, and the war, and maybe people wouldn't want to be Jedi after all...

 

 

It simply means that people won't play.

 

How many people are going to pay money to play a STAR WARS game if they can't be a Jedi, or if the requirements are too stringent, such as dozens of hours of playing time, or waiting in queus just to play a character that they have PAID for?

[John Galt]

It simply means that people won't play.

 

How many people are going to pay money to play a STAR WARS game if they can't be a Jedi, or if the requirements are too stringent, such as dozens of hours of playing time, or waiting in queus just to play a character that they have PAID for?

 

I don't support quotas. I think adding a hidden "force stat" that subtly influences all aspects of game play would definitely be better than quotas, and, given how hard I'd make life as a Jedi, I'd say quite a few players would be content to remain a "force adept" and keep another class than be a Jedi and have to be hunted constantly.

[Nancy Allen``]

How about cranking up the difficulty of being a Jedi to the point where they are only the best class if played by the best? Have it so that it takes a supreme effort to qualify.

[Corinthian]

The thing is Jedi SHOULD be rare. Having a Jedi friend should be a big deal. Seeing a pair of openly Jedi should be something you see maybe once. Dcinroc, people played SWG a lot more when Jedi wasn't a playable class from start. Now that it is, everyone is leaving. Coincidence? I doubt that very much.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The thing is Jedi SHOULD be rare. Having a Jedi friend should be a big deal. Seeing a pair of openly Jedi should be something you see maybe once. Dcinroc, people played SWG a lot more when Jedi wasn't a playable class from start. Now that it is, everyone is leaving. Coincidence? I doubt that very much.

 

 

Bullocks. People whined about how Jedi were unattainable. People left massively after the NGE. People were already leaving due to the high numbers of Jedi running around in the Civil War period. People left for plenty of reasons, far from Jedi alone.

 

By the way, we're talking about the KotOR era, where a high number of Jedi/Sith isn't such a problem.

 

To say, "I want to go and become a Jedi starting right off" is the same as complaining to Blizzard that WoW doesn't start you off at Level 70 and let you have all the fun. You want to get uber-powerful? Then start walking on that treadmill.

 

Comparing level progression to playable classes...smart.

 

No one is removing level progression when you start as a Jedi. For example, a level 50 Bounty Hunter would still destroy a level 10 Jedi. The problem is how to make it realistic when two similarly leveled characters face off, one being a Jedi, one not, knowing that the Force user has an advantage. It's almost impossible to solve.

 

 

By the way, for the last bloody time...customers>lore.

[Darca Lar]

By the way, for the last bloody time...customers>lore.

Sure, in the end it all comes down to the number of players. And for an MMO it's very critical that the gameplay is awesome, because a lot fo the players could care less about the story and just want to play to become uber powerful and pwn everyone in sight. But, for a pretty significant percent of the players who play the game like myself, we also want a good story to play out the way we want to play it.

 

Without the stories, it'd be like playing a death match on Jedi Knight, or playing a nice family fun game of Monopoly or Life. Sure it's fun to go everyone for themselves for a good while, but then it'll start getting boring because you're just doing the same thing every time you play. Eventually you'll play the game less and less until you either unsubscribe or let it collect dust in the closet.

 

But I'm not saying that stories are just as critical as as the gameplay, because gameplay is definitely more critical, but I think it's still pretty crucial, just not as crucial.

[Corinthian]

Playing a Jedi loses any allure when they're the exact same as every other class.

[SilentScope001]

Let me add one qualification to Corinthian's idea.

 

DON'T Make permadeath. It will only anger people.

 

Just have players lose 1-2 levels. Then you still keep the punishment of death pretty high to make Jedi angry (yah!), and at the same time, well, don't make people that mad.

 

Oh, and kick PvP combat. PvP is the only reason I play multiplayer games, but it's hard to manitan a good storyline, and you're likely going to be wasting time 'balancing' the classes. Make it all PvE, and then all will be fine. Players can make the ultimate "DS/LS" choices when genociding the True Sith.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Darca- I understand what you mean but what the developers of a possible future KotOR MMO (That's not going to happen anytime soon, anyway) must balance out is how to make the gameplay and the story good enough to grasp both those segments you mentioned.

 

On side, I fully disagree about the people who just want to be uber-powerful. Yes, there are people whose aim is just that and there are people who don't want to be the most powerful, richest player, etc. The balance is seeking some kind of middle ground between both. I said customers were more important then lore, not as a way to say the story is more important, but as a mean of telling people to remember, that although the Jedi are not uber numerous in any ages of the Star Wars saga, the system to balance them out must take customers into consideration.

 

What I mean is that losing massive amounts of experience points after death, permadeath, quotas and other artificial methods of limiting the number of Jedi is insulting to the customers. A lot of people who are going to play the game are aiming for to have Jedi character. If too many obstacles between them and their objective are put in order to make the numbers low, people are going to be pissed.

 

To support this, you can only observe every Star Wars games released in the last few years. The last one to not include the Jedi was a PSP game named Lethal Alliance. It wasn't very successful. Then there's the exemple of Galaxies, when it was made possible to play a Jedi, everyone got one. Then there's Battlefront, which at first didn't include playable Jedi but changed it due to popular demand in the sequel. Having playable Jedi is part of the success of a Star Wars game. The only exception are the flight simulators, Episode 1 Racer and the Rogue Squadron games, all of which have a very logical reason why the Jedi aren't playable.

 

 

 

 

 

Tabula Rasa has proposed a different leveling system that allows people to branch out into different classes from a standard starting point. Someone proposed that idea here. I think it's a good idea that can be modified to fit the KotOR universe just fine with progression possible to a Jedi class. The problem starts there though. How is it possible to balance them out? Make them more powerful then people but with disadvantages that won't make them unkillable or simply too hard to kill?

 

I think good ideas are brought up here and there, but many are simply counter-productive, unfeasible or an insult to someone who pays 15$ a month.

 

 

 

SilentScope001- Removing PvP? If it was PvE only, might as well make an SPRPG, put in a co-op mode and that's it.

[SilentScope001]

SilentScope001- Removing PvP? If it was PvE only, might as well make an SPRPG, put in a co-op mode and that's it.

 

And what would PvP add? If it doesn't 'jive' with the story Bioware plans, then it might cause some problems in jury-rigging this in. Besides, many MMOs have PvP up the boat, but never cared too much about it, having it just be a 'side-issue'. Getting rid of it will alienate the minor PvP fans (like me), but it also leads to something better: A focus on the actual content (PvE) of the MMO. If Bioware and LucasArts wants any control over the direction of the KOTOR series arc (and I suspect they do), then they should stick it to PvE.

 

"A Tale in A Desert" is just one example of a MMO with no PvP, heh, even no combat, but with a pretty good and active storyline. It could be derided as a "SPRPG with co-op", but it has been out for two years. Pretty profitable.

 

Here's what I am thinking. Bioware has an opporuntiy to rehabiliate MMOs. That's the thing, it doesn't have to be a grind-fest like other MMOs. It can really be different, if it succeds in deliving on the 'storyline' idea. It could convert the MMO naysayers. And what I suggest may do so. I'm sticking with my position.

[lukeiamyourdad]

And what would PvP add? If it doesn't 'jive' with the story Bioware plans, then it might cause some problems in jury-rigging this in. Besides, many MMOs have PvP up the boat, but never cared too much about it, having it just be a 'side-issue'. Getting rid of it will alienate the minor PvP fans (like me), but it also leads to something better: A focus on the actual content (PvE) of the MMO. If Bioware and LucasArts wants any control over the direction of the KOTOR series arc (and I suspect they do), then they should stick it to PvE.

 

 

A focus on PvE does not mean an inexistent PvP. PvP has been an important element in multiplayer games. As long as it's in, it has importance and should be balanced properly. Removing it is ridiculous.

 

 

"A Tale in A Desert" is just one example of a MMO with no PvP, heh, even no combat, but with a pretty good and active storyline. It could be derided as a "SPRPG with co-op", but it has been out for two years. Pretty profitable.

 

The lack of combat already removes PvP from the game. There would be no such thing in a KotOR MMORPG. No combat? Not possible.

 

Here's what I am thinking. Bioware has an opporuntiy to rehabiliate MMOs. That's the thing, it doesn't have to be a grind-fest like other MMOs. It can really be different, if it succeds in deliving on the 'storyline' idea. It could convert the MMO naysayers. And what I suggest may do so. I'm sticking with my position.

 

I agree 100% about making things different, but removing PvP is not making things different: it's literally removing the "MMO" in MMORPG. And this is coming from someone who's mainly a PvE player and has done little PvP. But anyway, stick to your position, this is a forum for opinions after all.

[Web Rider]

personally, and I'm skipping reading msot of this topic since I'm assuming it's other people's ideas.

 

At character creation, there should be some sort of "force sensitive" option, which would give terrible negatives to your stats. As Kreia mentions, in short: "Jedi suck at everything without the Force." So, given that your character would be "force sensitive" but have no training of ANY kind, they'd naturally suck at most things.

 

I'm talking game-impeding stat negatives here. These characters would have the option to talk to some "jedi recruiter" who'd check if they're force sensitive, and then they'd get to do "jedi training". At which point you'd have to do an assortment of mindless tasks, a variety of boring and utterly dumb quests before you reach the rank of "I've got a lightsaber" Jedi. Each time you do a task, your force level goes up a fixed number of points. If you do it well, you can get a bonus, the higher your force level, the lower the negatives to your stats. You won't get to use force abilities until all those negatives reach 0, at which point you get a new assortment of annoying dumb quests the end result of which is a force skill or something.

 

And, of course, Jedi training must be maintained. So, similar to vampirisim, you must meditate daily to keep up your abilities, this time would have a minimum required, and a maximum daily allowed(so people couldn't meditate 24/7 and become gods). The stronger you get, the less you need to meditate/train. The various Jedi enclaves would also have a variety of dumb quests and tasks you could complete that would take more time, but give better rewards than just meditation. You also wouldn't gain any new force abilities by simply meditating.

 

 

And no game is good without the sith, so take what I just said, and replace the word "Jedi" with "Sith" and "dumb" and "boring" with "violent" and "deadly". IE: to keep your force power up as a Sith, you'd have to kill stuff/randomly attack players/neutral/good NPCs.

 

In short, force users would have to undertake an excessive amount of mindless tasks, quests, and other time consuming things to become, and maintain their force abilities. As well as do the occasional quest for their appropriate faction (Jedi or Sith) to maintain the title of "jedi" or "sith", which would function like guilds.

[smhiggz]

At character creation, there should be some sort of "force sensitive" option, which would give terrible negatives to your stats. As Kreia mentions, in short: "Jedi suck at everything without the Force." So, given that your character would be "force sensitive" but have no training of ANY kind, they'd naturally suck at most things.

 

I'm talking game-impeding stat negatives here. These characters would have the option to talk to some "jedi recruiter" who'd check if they're force sensitive, and then they'd get to do "jedi training". At which point you'd have to do an assortment of mindless tasks, a variety of boring and utterly dumb quests before you reach the rank of "I've got a lightsaber" Jedi. Each time you do a task, your force level goes up a fixed number of points. If you do it well, you can get a bonus, the higher your force level, the lower the negatives to your stats. You won't get to use force abilities until all those negatives reach 0, at which point you get a new assortment of annoying dumb quests the end result of which is a force skill or something.

 

I actually like the idea of every character having the "force sensitive" trait from the getgo, but if a player does not want to be a jedi they don't have to, but still can develop skill boosts from being "force sensitive" such as luck for smugglers or precision for crafters that are influenced by the force. I think that this would be a good way of balancing the classes if Jedi are implemented in the game. That way you could have a "force sensitive" bounty hunter match up with a jedi/sith and be equally matched because the bounty hunter has some subconcious understanding of the force like heightened reflexes or being able to sense threats. Or a smuggler that can use a "mind trick" if you will, to persuade potential employers to pay more for their services.

[Nancy Allen``]

I know how to solve the Jedi problem. Have the other character classes capeable of various actions, scoundrals can use blasters well for example, or soldiers can fly, but make the Jedi good at Jedi feats and suck bad at everything else. Not only would this be canon, as Kreia discusses the Jedi being lost when trying anything that Jedi don't do, it'll open up avenues for players to experiance the game as other characters, parts they cannot as a Jedi.

[Web Rider]

my idea.

 

I actually like the idea of every character having the "force sensitive" trait from the getgo, but if a player does not want to be a jedi they don't have to, but still can develop skill boosts from being "force sensitive" such as luck for smugglers or precision for crafters that are influenced by the force. I think that this would be a good way of balancing the classes if Jedi are implemented in the game. That way you could have a "force sensitive" bounty hunter match up with a jedi/sith and be equally matched because the bounty hunter has some subconcious understanding of the force like heightened reflexes or being able to sense threats. Or a smuggler that can use a "mind trick" if you will, to persuade potential employers to pay more for their services.

 

I would actually say "no" to every character having it. It's completely cannon for only certain characters to be force sensitive and others to not be, or to be to such a small degree that it doesn't matter.

 

Or, if every character has it, then I think there should be a scale, you can set your force sensitivity from say, 1-10. If it's 1, you can use basic force, but are unlikly to get Jedi training, if it's 10, you're likly to get Jedi/Sith training, but you're gonna suck at normal stuff.

 

IE: the higher you set your force sensitivity, the greater the negatives to your skills/attirbutes.

[Corinthian]

Just about everyone would take the early game penalties for late-game dominance and getting to play as a Jedi.

[Web Rider]

Just about everyone would take the early game penalties for late-game dominance and getting to play as a Jedi.

 

maybe, of course I'm still talking the kinds of penalties that would give you a less than 50% survival rate on basic quests(quests that may already have less than 100% survival rates). That and the boring quests to become a jedi along with constant(at least weekly) jedi-realted quests to keep your jedi title.

[Corinthian]

The majority of players would still do it. Most MMO quests are already boring anyway. I mean, we're talking about at least 50% of the players being Jedi, maybe more early on.

[Web Rider]

I wouldn't be surprised, but lets be honest with ourselves, we can play a soldier, a soundrel, a rogue, and a wide variety of non-jedi/sith characters in just about every game that exists, MMO and not. It is ONLY in a Star Wars MMO that you can play jedi/sith, so naturally, most of the people who play a Star Wars MMO vs any other, will want to run around wielding a lightsaber and the Force.

[Corinthian]

Of course they will. Hell, I'd want to play a Jedi. But that doesn't make it a good thing that you'd be routinely seeing all-Jedi battles and guys regularly lighting up lightsabers in the middle of Theed.

[Web Rider]

Of course they will. Hell, I'd want to play a Jedi. But that doesn't make it a good thing that you'd be routinely seeing all-Jedi battles and guys regularly lighting up lightsabers in the middle of Theed.

 

true, but I suppose the only real solution to this is to have alot of really cool quests that Jedi/Sith can't do.

 

or perhaps a time limit? You must get jedi/sith training within the first X hours of gameplay or they'll consider you "too old". dunno, limited openings to training could work as well, once a month or something.

 

But then, as it was mentioned earlier, you're gonna lose a lot of players when you heavily restrict the only thing that really makes a Star Wars MMO different from any other space/sci-fi MMO.

[Corinthian]

The ability to play a Jedi hasn't exactly kept SWG afloat, has it?

[Web Rider]

The ability to play a Jedi hasn't exactly kept SWG afloat, has it?

 

yes, well SWG has a variety of other problems...ones that are namely why when I heard about it, I didn't get it.

[smhiggz]

Or, if every character has it, then I think there should be a scale, you can set your force sensitivity from say, 1-10. If it's 1, you can use basic force, but are unlikly to get Jedi training, if it's 10, you're likly to get Jedi/Sith training, but you're gonna suck at normal stuff.

 

IE: the higher you set your force sensitivity, the greater the negatives to your skills/attirbutes.

 

I actully really like this idea, having a scale could solve the balancing problem if jedi are implemented. Someone who has a higher force sensitivity can unlock more force sensitive skills than someone who is not, but if you are not that force sensitive, you could get a boost of your attributes like strength and be able to train more combat skills because you aren't using the force as a cruch like a player with high force sensitivity would.

[Tommycat]

That's because SWG butchered canon. They dumbed down a very complex and engaging game into a pseudo FPS(and not very well done I might add). They killed off a couple dozen professions and restricted it to 9 "Iconic" professions. Erased the hard work of those that spent a lot of time creating their Jedi and gave them a crystal and a bathrobe. Yeppers turned them into Grandma..... They killed the game that people enjoyed. Oh and the time between ANH and ESB was supposed to have ALMOST NO JEDI LEFT AT ALL.

 

Now with KotOR it is possible to have lots of jedi without giving a pressed ham to canon. Mainly because the jedi are not as unheard of. Plus they kinda have to repopulate the jedi-dom... It would make perfect sense to rebuild the jedi order after the old masters have um... gone. The jedi and Sith will want to rebuild.

 

I like the idea of giving a level of Force Sensitivity to every one. The advantage of not having ANY force sensitivity could be a level of immunity from force powers. Powers like Fear, Mind trick, etc would have no effect on you. Granted you could be pushed pulled hit with lightning, crushed... Basically anything that affects you physically, but not mentally. Perhaps you could even be harder for the strongest in the force to see.