The Jedi Problem

[Prime]

That's why you make it fairly difficult to get a Jedi in the first place, and downright hellish to play as one.

Again, Galaxies was supposed to be the same thing.

[Tommycat]

Again, Galaxies was supposed to be the same thing.

And when it was, more people were happy than when they made it a starting profession....

Not to mention the ERA that Galaxies takes place in was supposed to have EXTREMELY FEW Jedi(so few as to make the empire believe that Vader is the only one left with such powers). KotOR's era makes more sense to allow it because more jedi SHOULD exist...

[Prime]

And when it was, more people were happy than when they made it a starting profession....

Not to mention the ERA that Galaxies takes place in was supposed to have EXTREMELY FEW Jedi(so few as to make the empire believe that Vader is the only one left with such powers). KotOR's era makes more sense to allow it because more jedi SHOULD exist...

Agreed. But ultimately, I can't see how it is not going to be one extreme or the other. I think we can agree that the whole point of having a SW MMO in the KOTOR era (acronyms for the win) is so that more players can be Jedi or Sith. The main (only?) reason why originally Galaxies players were happy not being Jedi was because the era deemed just about no one was. So, what happens when you make a KOTOR era MMO game and require that Jedi characters are very difficult to achieve? A bunch of Jedi wannabees going WTF and getting all up in arms because they all expect to be Jedi. So if you restrict it it pisses people off, and if you open it up the entire galaxy will be Jedi or Sith.

 

As an irrelevant sidenote, I say both cases blow.

[Web Rider]

I'm sure that whomever is designing the game has the ability to work out exactly how much limiting is required to not make it like EVE with only 5 "Titans", and not make it all crazy total jedi. Personally I think "recuriting days" and number limits would be helpful. ie: every other sunday and only 100 users may apply. or something to that end.

 

I doubt they're going to repeat the mistakes they made in Galaxies, and I'm sure they'll learn from the variety of MMOs already out there and how they do special classes.

[MJ-W4]

My ideas:

 

Make a "force sensitive" trait random among new players, giving ambient bonuses to any profession they choose(since not all force sensitives became Jedi), but also adding a few risks, like offering bonuses to Bounty Hunters to kill force sensitives, maybe attracting a little attention from random-encountered NPC assassins and Jedi-hunters.

 

If a player were to get "force sensitive," he or she could apply to become a Jedi or sith, and the training process would have to be rather difficult. Once fully trained, life would become VERY difficult for Jedi, being hunted constantly by assassins, bounty hunters, etc. This could be done by having the Sith, Mandalorians, or whatever the opposition group is, post huge bounties on Jedi.

 

Not a very developed idea, but I think it would certainly be better than quotas.

 

Yes, Jedi should be a class for hardcore players. New players should not be able to just pick up Jedi. Yes, if you screw up, you should lose the character. This makes it so that less people are trying to be Jedi, further reducing their numbers.

 

However, I really don't think Jedi should be present at all.

The questions that arise are: A) are the two of you going to pay for everybody's accounts?, and B) will the two of you be willing to take the blame if the game becomes an utter failure?

[John Galt]

The questions that arise are: A) are the two of you going to pay for everybody's accounts?, and B) will the two of you be willing to take the blame if the game becomes an utter failure?

 

You know, I actually like the force/skill slider better than my own idea, but if force-sensitivity were made a random, hidden trait it would certainly make sense if more people were made jedi-trainable in the KotOR era than in the Imperial Era.

 

And I'm not even entertaining the delusion that Bioware and Lucasarts care what my ideas are, beyond their ability to sell me a game. I was just throwing ideas around and hoping for a response.

[MJ-W4]

I personally would enjoy your random feature with the Force, too, however, only in SP, where I can sit in my scrapyard and happily experiment. As soon as we're talking about an MMO, a random feature would be disappointing. Let's say, you'd like to be a perfectly normal protocol droid and only because of the random warbledigook you end up with some sort of organic, Force-filled lump in your system's innards and had no choice but to be a Jedi, like it or not. It wouldn't just be a drawback for those dying (or rather, staying alive) to be Jedi, it might perfectly ruin any proposed non-Jedi or Sith all the same.

The reason I quoted you was simply that you appeared to be so sure about things and I wanted to point out the huge difference between nifty SP features that are more or less bound to give all the world and their grannies headaches, or in some cases, circuit failures when used in MMO.

[John Galt]

I personally would enjoy your random feature with the Force, too, however, only in SP, where I can sit in my scrapyard and happily experiment. As soon as we're talking about an MMO, a random feature would be disappointing. Let's say, you'd like to be a perfectly normal protocol droid and only because of the random warbledigook you end up with some sort of organic, Force-filled lump in your system's innards and had no choice but to be a Jedi, like it or not. It wouldn't just be a drawback for those dying (or rather, staying alive) to be Jedi, it might perfectly ruin any proposed non-Jedi or Sith all the same.

The reason I quoted you was simply that you appeared to be so sure about things and I wanted to point out the huge difference between nifty SP features that are more or less bound to give all the world and their grannies headaches, or in some cases, circuit failures when used in MMO.

 

my basic idea was that you could choose not to be a Jedi, even if you got the "force sensitive" trait, and get some bonuses to reflex saves and the like, but you would be more vulnerable to force-based attacks or suchlike. The point was that players who were "force sensitive" could avoid being railroaded into a particular class (i.e. Jedi, Gray Jedi, or Sith) and alignment, and still get a bonus from the randomness. Likewise for players with little to no "force points;" they would be immune or at least far less vulnerable to psychological force-based attacks, like mind-trick or horror, but would not get the luck-type bonus that would be given to those who are "strong in the force."

[MJ-W4]

I see your point. But as I said, random character traits should be limited to SP, (like KotOR 3, perhaps?), once you're in an online game, a random feature might cross the plan you might have had for your character when you bought the account. It wouldn't be long for the majority of players to go claiming a patch to do away with the random feature, no matter how well-balanced it may be.

[Darth Xenus]

I like the random force sensitivity idea, and heres my thoughts...

 

Perhaps if the Jedi/Sith Orders were made to be similar to "guilds" in other games (with there being the option of various other guilds, of course), and if someone is a Jedi, they are capable of seeing how force sensitive a player is, and can then initiate them into the Order? Of course, the player's personality would also be taken into account as I'm sure the Jedi would prefer a weak force user who is a good person rather than an uber powerful evil git, and the opposite for the Sith.

[Web Rider]

you know that if it's a "random" setting, people would just keep junking their characters until they got the right settings. And if you couldn't scrap your own character, some other player would just say "come to PvP server ajddfs and let me kill you so you can start over!" in which case if Lucasarts limited you to say, 5 characters, and once you used them up(they were killed or scrapped), people would stop playing rather than pay more to get more chances.

 

Which is why it's simpler to just let people adjust their force sensitivity to the point they like, and it would have associated disadvantages. I wouldn't want the game to be hell to play, just more complicated, requiring more strategy to play. I'm sure there's developers who've been thinking this over for years.

[John Galt]

you know that if it's a "random" setting, people would just keep junking their characters until they got the right settings. And if you couldn't scrap your own character, some other player would just say "come to PvP server ajddfs and let me kill you so you can start over!" in which case if Lucasarts limited you to say, 5 characters, and once you used them up(they were killed or scrapped), people would stop playing rather than pay more to get more chances.

 

Which is why it's simpler to just let people adjust their force sensitivity to the point they like, and it would have associated disadvantages. I wouldn't want the game to be hell to play, just more complicated, requiring more strategy to play. I'm sure there's developers who've been thinking this over for years.

 

yeah, I like that idea better than my own. However, I think balancing Force vs Skills would railroad players who make force-heavy characters into being Jedi or Sith, but under a random system, some level of force sensitivity could be a random asset or hindrance.

 

edit: and that's why you make the force-sensitivity number a hidden attribute =)

[Web Rider]

yeah, I like that idea better than my own. However, I think balancing Force vs Skills would railroad players who make force-heavy characters into being Jedi or Sith, but under a random system, some level of force sensitivity could be a random asset or hindrance.

 

edit: and that's why you make the force-sensitivity number a hidden attribute =)

 

I dunno, I don't trust "random". But that IS the idea, if you're highly force sensitive you're supposed to get railroaded into being a jedi or sith, so we can avoid "SUpEr-ReVaNOMG!!!!" who have massive force powers and awesome combat skillz. If you're really force sensitive, then both sides will hound you to join them and if you refuse the Jedi/Sith enough they're try to kill you or sever your force connection or something.

 

But now if we're talking an adjustable force level with randomized negatives, I could get behind that. Say, you can adjust your force based on random numder "rolls". If you're force sensitive is at 12, then your negatives are randomized at battle anywhere from 1-12. Say at 12 you're pretty in to get Jedi/Sith training, but it could screw you in battle. 'Cause the Force is random like that.

[JediMasterJambi]

If this ever happened, I would want KOTOR 3 to come out first. Then they can make as manny pre-kotor MMOs as they want.

I think a pre-kotor MMO wouldn't be all that bad either.

 

People want to play as Jedi/Sith. Let them. No cap. No "Perma Death." None of that fantastic "handi-cap" crud.

The era was full of Jedi/Sith, all who were powerful begins. And seriously. I think any Jedi would find a Wookie Scoundrel quite a match. Mandalorian Bounty Hunters aint exactly push-overs either. Just make every single class powerful. Then everyones on the same level.

 

Blizzard can make an 8 foot tall bull/man (Tauren) warrior which can be killed by a tiny fragile female human priestess. (Damn Shadow Priest =.=) I'm sure Lucas can figure somthing out to level the Jedi/Sith with other classes.

 

And don't tell me that 95,000 or the 100,000 people will be Jedi/Sith. Sure, that may be true at first. But point and case example.

In WoW when the 2 new fancy races were added into the game, EVERYONE re-roled a Blood Elf Paladin. But people got bored of the class, people wanted to be diffrent, people developed a deeply seeded hatred for the race, etc, etc.

[Tommycat]

Gotta agree with ya there Jambi(loved that show BTW haha) I wouldn't play as a Jedi and more likely will play the game as a scoundrel(because Luke was whiney and Han was the cool one).

 

As far as people accepting the MMO, its more of it being out of our control. If they have decided on an MMO it cannot be changed at this point.

[Master Kavar]

I don't see implementing force users as being a difficult at all; a KotOR era MMORPG has the advantage of playing in an era where seeing lots of Jedi (and even Sith now) isn't uncommon, as well as cortosis weaponry. I say let anyone pay their money and let them start off as a Force user if they wish; but they still have to start from the bottom as a lowly apprentice/Padawan and work their way up, just like every other class.

 

I think it would work best in the way World of Warcraft handles character specialization. For example: I roll a Force user, and immediatly have access to a few simple force powers, low to mid-ranged armor, and some melee abilities. As my character becomes more powerful, I would be prompted to select from three distinct talent trees

• Guardian: Melee combat, tanking class. Can use all lightsaber forms and wear heavy armor, at expense of lower damage, fewer Force power options, and limited force point pool.
  
• Sentinel: Your balanced damage dealers, with access to many of the same lightsaber bonuses as the guardian, in addition to more Force powers, at the expense of less defense.
  
• Consular: Pure casting; nothing but robe armor for the most powerful Force powers and nigh inexhuastable force point pool. Lightsaber used mainly for decoration, deflecting the odd blaster bolt, or for stuffing specialty crystals into enhance force powers.

 

Having Jedi by default doesn't either unbalances the game, or by the opposite extreme down-plays a Jedi's power. After all not every Jedi is a Master, and not every Sith is a Lord. I'm sure both sides have people who are just as ordinary as everyone else in the galaxy.

 

As for how to handle the Light side / Dark Side and Jedi / Sith part, I haven't really thought that far ahead. I'm sure they could think of something though.

[Web Rider]

Gotta agree with ya there Jambi(loved that show BTW haha) I wouldn't play as a Jedi and more likely will play the game as a scoundrel(because Luke was whiney and Han was the cool one).

 

As far as people accepting the MMO, its more of it being out of our control. If they have decided on an MMO it cannot be changed at this point.

 

If all they've decided is simply, "that they're gonna make one", they may very well be curiously watching what the fans are writing in regards to one. Heck, that could be the whole reason they "leaked" that they were thinking of an MMO to get our input on it first.

 

I have to admit, I don't like MMOs, I don't play MMOs, but I will play this IF, and only IF I can be darksided and the game plays differently than if I were lightsided. Also if it's just a one-time cost and no monthly fee. I'm a broke college student after all! I don't have a lot of time to play and I don't want my money being wasted to sustain my account when I'm not playing.

 

Depending on how many characters we're allowed to make, I'd definately give a non-jedi character a shot, but I have to be honest, I can play a scoundrel, rogue, soldier, whatever in every other MMO on the market, Jedi/Sith are the only thing I couldn't do in a non-Star Wars MMO. Hence the appeal.

[Tommycat]

Well considering the information we have received has been that it is already in a playable form, I think that it is likely a foregone conclusion that IF this new Sci-Fi MMO is KotOR online then it is too late to tell them not to do it. Too much development time has already gone into it. Don't get me wrong though, I'll give it a shot even if it isn't SW based at all. Just having another Sci-Fi MMO out there with any kind of promise of a good story, gets my hopes up. I'm not really looking forward to the Star Trek online MMO as 99% of trek games are junk. Bioware is known for good stories, and nice gameplay. Many of the developers for the Bioware MMO also worked on SWG BEFORE it was ripped apart. Since I loved that game, I can only hope that this bears some commonality with that one.

 

Oh I do not deny that jedi should be in the game if it's supposed to be a Star Wars game. I'll just leave the jedi-stuff to jedi. Oh and technically, jedi are the fighter/mage character from fantasy games. I used to always play the fighter/thief characters in DnD. Jedi isn't that different from those fantasy archetypes. BUT what makes them really cool is being in a world(universe) where technology is everywhere, yet they remain true to their philosophies. I'll be the one sticking to the blasters.

[Web Rider]

hmmm, I suppose thats true, but you don't find many sci-fantasy games these days, you've got the good old "classic fantasy" and the future sci-fi and the "Armageddon" future, but Star Wars is kinda unique since it's not a pristine utopia, it's not classic fantasy, though it's got many elements, and it's not post-apocalyptic.

 

In that case I would say that too few games(MMOs) have lightsabers. :-p

[Tommycat]

hmmm, I suppose thats true, but you don't find many sci-fantasy games these days, you've got the good old "classic fantasy" and the future sci-fi and the "Armageddon" future, but Star Wars is kinda unique since it's not a pristine utopia, it's not classic fantasy, though it's got many elements, and it's not post-apocalyptic.

 

In that case I would say that too few games(MMOs) have lightsabers. :-p

Ideally, I would like nothing better than to find out that Bioware's Sci-Fi MMO is Shadowrun, or FireFly Online(though I think that one is using Multiverse), and the new Interactive product is KotOR III. However should it pan out that Bioware is developing KotOR online, I won't cry about it. Heck I might even make a second character just to try out Jedi.

 

Shadowrun is another Sci-Fantasy game I would like to see done(correctly, not the FPS they just released that slaps the original SR in the face). That has all the grit and grime of SW with the mixture of tech and magic.

[Robb Stark]

The heart of the matter that people don't seem to want to give up is that the power of the Jedi relative to other classes has to be balanced. "Everyone," even people who want an MMO to work, still want their uber Jedi. The questsion is whether the developer is willing to ignore the screams of bloody murder for the long-term viability that balance between classes would bring.

 

Incidentally, the Jedi being the best warriors, wizards, and possibly even healers is a characteristic of the Star Wars setting as a whole that hurts multi-player gaming, and yet the opportunity to be a Jedi is what draws people to role-play in the setting. It's self-defeating on that front. Yet, with the willingness to make sacrifices regarding a Jedi's powers and endure the outrage that accompanies that choice, I think it can be done.

 

I might argue that a post-SPRPG setting actually promotes class balance...heavily armored Mandalorian mercenaries could rival Jedi at melee/tanking, while kortosis weave technology allows other classes to not be instantly slaughtered by Jedi in PvP. Assassin droids, Echani combat specialists, healing bots and Wookie Shaman...all the while the Jedi are less powerful than they otherwise would have been because the Exile's new Jedi Order is still growing, much of the knowledge hidden away by the Masters before KotOR2 is still missing, or whatever story you want to use for your explanation. On the Sith side the ravages of war resulted in the destruction of much Sith knowledge, but much yet waits to be found as a new Sith Order rises from the ashes of the destruction at the hands of Revan and the Exile.

 

Can a Star Wars MMO use the same faction+race+class model prevelant in fantasy RPGs and rival other popular MMOs in the long run? Probably not--the content doesn't lend itself to that kind of setup--but there are ways to make this work, with innovation and ingenious features like morality meters and more sophisticated class development, and interaction with NPCs that goes beyond quest-giving and quest-rewards that shape your character as much as any XP reward can, etc. etc. that play to the setting's strengths. So many cool things could be done if the developers were ambitious and patient enough--I think a KotOR MMO is very far from a guaranteed failure, though I cannot yet say how confident I might be in its success.

[Kain Darro]

The big thing about the "jedi being uber" thing is that it is only an immage. This is stated many times throughout the SW material. Heck, even the bmf jedi, Mace Windu, states that on Geonosis he had two choices; to kill Duku and end the clone wars before they started, thus being killed by Jango, or to save his own life. Mace knew Jango was more than a match for any jedi, even one of Mace's skill.

 

That is the thing about jedi. They are human/sentient being. The belief that they are unbeatable is one manufactured by the jedi themselves. The air of mystery and power is used by the jedi to defeat opponents before an encounter gets to combat. Even a newly appointed jedi knight can stare down a notorious bounty hunter and make them submit to the jedi's will because they think the jedi will squash them like a gizka.

 

Even still, those who know better and could kill jedi by the score, will keep that fact quiet, as it makes them look more powerful than they may actualy be.

 

I think jedi should be ballanced with the other classes, just for that reason. No bonuses against jedi for some, or jedi getting bonuses or penalties against others. Just balanced. (as much as it can be, I guess.)

[Kain Darro]

Can a Star Wars MMO use the same faction+race+class model prevelant in fantasy RPGs and rival other popular MMOs in the long run? Probably not--.

 

I verily dissagree. The SW rpg, Saga edition, uses just that. You chose your class, you chose your race, you chose your faction orientation. It does work for SW, in fact, it works better for SW than any thing else. There are more races in the galaxy than in any fantasy setting, and any race can be anything. Some might be better at some things in minor ways, but the possiblities are endless.

 

LA would just have to use a different system than WotC, copyright stuff tends to make big legal issues. Very icky.

[MJ-W4]

Speaking of MMOs, though, how about an Elder Scrolls-like system where you can learn anything? That might provide for some long-term fun, too.

 

QFE

[Darca Lar]

Maybe with a few modifications to the system to fit the Star Wars feel, then yeah I could see it.