Heavy Spoilers: Why were they forced to be darkside?

[Robondacob]

I just played through TSL and I have no idea why these people at Malachor V were forced to die or turn dark side. It does not make sense that because a lot of people die that everyone else turns dark side. What about Taris? A whole entire planet destroyed, yet no one else was forced to turn evil.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me, and I would like a better explanation.

[Gavroche]

Indeed no one else turned evil, that's why no one survided on Taris

 

 

More seriously, there is something about Malachor V itself. Revan was the only person who was not completly consumed by the Dark Side while walking upon its surface, yet he still started to do questionnable things after this first visit. And no victim on Taris were Jedi, so there wasn't any Light Sider to convert during the bombing.

And there is the way people died or suffered. On Taris, the worst that could happen to you was being trapped in a burning building rather than being gunned down directly, on Malachor, you had this gravity-thing you could not escape, you were unable to run away, yet you were feeling everybody around you dying in terrible pain, while you could not even breath.

 

I think the main things are that 1/no Jedi to convert were on Taris and 2/Malachor naturally has a Dark Side aura.

[Robondacob]

Indeed no one else turned evil, that's why no one survided on Taris

 

 

More seriously, there is something about Malachor V itself. Revan was the only person who was not completly consumed by the Dark Side while walking upon its surface, yet he still started to do questionnable things after this first visit. And no victim on Taris were Jedi, so there wasn't any Light Sider to convert during the bombing.

And there is the way people died or suffered. On Taris, the worst that could happen to you was being trapped in a burning building rather than being gunned down directly, on Malachor, you had this gravity-thing you could not escape, you were unable to run away, yet you were feeling everybody around you dying in terrible pain, while you could not even breath.

 

I think the main things are that 1/no Jedi to convert were on Taris and 2/Malachor naturally has a Dark Side aura.

 

So you have to be a Jedi in order to turn to the dark side? I don't really understand any of that. What exactly did the Mass Shadow Generator do?

[JCarter426]

Revan was the only person who was not completly consumed by the Dark Side while walking upon its surface

This is Kreia's opinion, not fact.

 

So you have to be a Jedi in order to turn to the dark side? I don't really understand any of that. What exactly did the Mass Shadow Generator do?

The Mass Shadow Generator just warped the planet's gravity well, crushing everyone. As for needing to be a Jedi in order to fall to the dark side, I disagree; there were those like Saul that "fell" after Malachor.

[Robondacob]

So what is different between Taris and Malachor V?

 

I have to think that at least some people survived Taris. Why wouldn't they die from being exposed to tons of people dieing?

[TKA-001]

I don't think a person can survive the destruction of a planet's surface.

[ForeverNight]

The Mass Shadow Generator.

 

That's the main difference that I can point out. With the Grav. Well of Malachor V being greatly expanded, it did weird things to the planet. I somehow get the feeling that those Stormbeasts weren't natural, nor were the great ravines and pits that dotted the entire planet.

 

Also, Trayus Academy was there. I don't know when it was set up (I don't remember if it was mentioned in the game at all) but it is a corrupting influence and it might've been there even before the Wars.

 

Also, Revan led the fleets in hunt of the last Mandalorians. He probably slipped deeper and deeper into the madness of the Dark Side. He also probably ended up killing those who didn't use the Dark Side.

 

Also, the Exile was at Malachor V and wasn't twisted by the Dark Side, so it cannot be said that Malachor V alone twisted people to the Dark Side.

[Rev7]

I don't think a person can survive the destruction of a planet's surface.

Oh, I'm sure that some survived.

[JCarter426]

Also, the Exile was at Malachor V and wasn't twisted by the Dark Side, so it cannot be said that Malachor V alone twisted people to the Dark Side.

The Exile is the exception that proves the rule.

[TKA-001]

Oh, I'm sure that some survived.

 

[Robondacob]

There is no way that turrets from a ship could destroy every single part of a planet.

[Da_Man_2423]

There is no way that turrets from a ship could destroy every single part of a planet.

 

Probably not, but it sure did a lot of damage. You only see the Upper City get blown to shreds, maybe if the camera showed some part of the Undercity blowing up too I'd be more convinced.

[TKA-001]

There is no way that turrets from a ship could destroy every single part of a planet.

Why not? The Leviathan's class of ship has a decent amount of turbolasers in addition to its turrets, and there was a fleet of ships of that class orbiting the planet. After all, a single Imperial I-class Star Destroyer can destroy a planet's surface in less than a day, so it's not like such an operation is unheard of with fleets of similar vessels, even if they are far in the past. Telos' surface was completely destroyed, which provides evidence that the Sith possessed fleets with firepower capable of such attacks. Look at it this way: if the Sith fleet wasn't capable of at least demolishing the entire city, including the undercity levels, then there would have been no reason for Malak to expect randomly bombarding the planet to work.

 

However, I digress.

[Rev7]

Why not? The Leviathan's class of ship has a decent amount of turbolasers in addition to its turrets, and there was a fleet of ships of that class orbiting the planet. After all, a single Imperial I-class Star Destroyer can destroy a planet's surface in less than a day, so it's not like such an operation is unheard of with fleets of similar vessels, even if they are far in the past. Telos' surface was completely destroyed, which provides evidence that the Sith possessed fleets with firepower capable of such attacks. Look at it this way: if the Sith fleet wasn't capable of at least demolishing the entire city, including the undercity levels, then there would have been no reason for Malak to expect randomly bombarding the planet to work.

Well that is true. But you have to think, are there survivors from massive Earthquakes, nuclear weapon attacks, hurricanes? I know that they are not on the same scale, but I am pretty sure that some survived. I know that Calo Nord survived. I know that Revan and his crew survived, and I am sure that some of the citizens of Taris survived as well.

[Robondacob]

Okay. So Taris wasn't completely destroyed, but the fact remains that there is no reason that someone should be forced by the, err, Force, to become evil just because of people dieing.

 

If there is a better explanation, I think that Kreia and the Jedi Council are lieing.

[Emperor Devon]

the fact remains that there is no reason that someone should be forced by the, err, Force, to become evil just because of people dieing.

 

Perhaps this'll help explain.

 

“Observation: It was not something discussed with much of the others, but I think Revan recognized that a single Jedi, both in the past and in the present, could turn the tide of a conflict. So my targets were frequently Jedi, or someone close to a Jedi that could result in their corruption or collapse. Revan often assigned me to kill leaders or supporters of certain Jedi so as to erode their will.”

 

“Why was that important?”

 

 

“Observation: It is a curious thing to assassinate and wound someone's personality, to assassinate them psychologically, and it took me some time to reconcile the acts."

 

“So you're saying Revan intended to break the Jedi?”

 

“Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.”

 

“Revan ordered us to kill Mandalorians at Malachor, not Jedi.”

 

 

So here we come to the crux of the retcon job that Obsidian on the Revan character. In KOTOR 1, the war was waged flat out against the Mandalorians. Revan won, Mandalorians lost, period. Here, they discuss the notion that the war itself didn’t even matter; that it was just ground zero in Revan’s grand war of beliefs.

 

There’s a moment in the first game, on the planet Kashyyyk, when a computer gives the player what amounted to an ethics quiz. One of the questions concerned a dogmatically peaceful planet about to be attacked by an invading force. You, as the leader of the planet, have been given warning about the impeding strike; what do you do?

 

The ‘correct’ answer was to do nothing. The casualties and the destruction would have galvanized public support for a war, which would have allowed you the authority to retaliate and end the threat. It’s a Winston Churchill moment, but it’s also paralleled here in the reveal that Revan deliberately killed thousands of his own troops simply to sway hearts and minds to his cause.

 

 

If you read in between the lines here, it says a lot about the relationship between the Exile and Revan.

 

 

{snip}

 

“Statement: Overwhelming odds is also a good tactic, master. There are few Jedi that can long hold their ground against a hundred attackers all firing at once... or being turned on by their own troops. But the most effective weapon against Jedi seems to be the erosion of the spirit.”

 

“What do you mean?”

 

“Answer: Revan claimed that psychological warfare against Jedi was important because much of their power comes from their state of mind, their connection to this religion called the "Force." Revan said that many Jedi have the capability to form connections to life around them, although few of them realized the extent to which this is possible.”

 

{snip}

 

 

 

“The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance. Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army.”

 

 

“But I am surprised you have not already arrived at this conclusion.”

 

 

 

Was this really what happened after Malachor V?

 

Did Jesus [the name of Scorchy's character] waltz halfway around the galaxy searching for existentialist answers from other Jedi Masters, only to find them from a rusty old droid?

 

If that didn't make complete sense, pardon the lack of context - it's only a part of the entire LP. But I'm feeling too laaaaaaazy right now to type an explanation myself.

[Robondacob]

Okay. I understand that Jedi use their mind (that's why the Jedi teach peace, in order to keep control of the force, while the Dark Jedi use their wild emotions for power) for their powers. A problem with the whole "I killed a lot of people so now people are either insane loyal to me or dead" is that they still die. Did Revan's supporters kill them? What happened to them?

[Emperor Devon]

That's not explained in terribly much depth, but I theorize Revan intentionally placed them on the ships that would be in the most danger (which was closest to Malachor). When the MSG went off they were killed along with everyone else who was close enough to the planet.

 

The balance probably died from the sheer shock of all the soldiers and other Jedi they'd served with being killed all at once in great pain. A planet's worth of people Obi-Wan had no connection to dying lightyears away was enough to fatigue him, after all. Dozens of intimate people coupled with the deaths of millions more at once could probably cause death. I'd imagine the dark side's presence on the planet below also helped toward that end.

 

I dislike the latter explanation, though, because it doesn't explain how the Exile managed to survive where all his peers died. You could assume he was the only one strong enough to, but I hate it when a fundamental part of the player's history rests on them being stronger than everyone else.

[Ztalker]

I don't know if this adds anything to this thread but...

 

Before you can turn Sith, I believe it's required that you crave it's power out of neccesity (No way I spelled that right). It becomes an addiction afterwards.

 

For example, Exar Kun was corrupted when he needed to draw on the power of the Dark Side when he was burried alive in a tomb. All of his bones broken. It was his only option to survive.

But by 'needing it' he became addicted and a Sith Lord.

Same goes for Vader, who needed the power to save his wife and needed the Dark Side to keep him alive after his 'unfortunate smelting accident.'

 

So...maybe by bombing those Jedi to death, they were offered a choice:

-Die. Since no Jedi technique or power can keep you alive that way. Only hate can heal you/keep your broken body together.

-Live and embrace the Dark Side to obtain the powers used to survive.

[Robondacob]

^ The only problem with that theory is that non-force users survived. They can't use the Dark Side to survive, if they can't even use the force right?

 

Also, if Jedi were fatigued by people dieing, why wouldn't the Dark Jedi also be fatigued too? What makes them different from the Jedi?

[Rev7]

Also, if Jedi were fatigued by people dieing, why wouldn't the Dark Jedi also be fatigued too? What makes them different from the Jedi?

Well, the two groups are different. One, wants death, while the other wants life...I guess. They have different views. I'm not sure if that was much help...

[Robb Stark]

My interpretation has always been that the death of so many people was overwhelming to those whose connection to the Force leaned toward the Light Side. Think of how Obi-Wan reacts to Alderaan getting blown up, then consider that the effect is inversely proportional to the cube of the distance.

 

Or maybe that a more personal connection to those being killed, both allies and enemies (the whole know your enemy thing Kreia and Handmaiden go through), magnified the effect.

 

Basically, Jedi who respected life for its own sake, the Light Siders, were so overwhelmed by the effects on the Force from so many people dying that they perished from leaving themselves open to the Force "feedback" from so many deaths.

 

Those Jedi who leaned Dark Side didn't share the same respect for life that the Light Siders did and therefore weren't as adversely affected; Malachor also reinforced the idea that "necessary casualties" are a means to secure greater power.

 

As a corollary to the Obi-Wan example...as far as I know, Vader wasn't so drastically affected by Alderaan's destruction, and he had a front-row seat.

 

The Exile took a different approach--she cut herself off from the Force so she couldn't get that Force feedback from all the deaths she was (in part) responsible for.

[Robondacob]

My interpretation has always been that the death of so many people was overwhelming to those whose connection to the Force leaned toward the Light Side. Think of how Obi-Wan reacts to Alderaan getting blown up, then consider that the effect is inversely proportional to the cube of the distance.

 

Or maybe that a more personal connection to those being killed, both allies and enemies (the whole know your enemy thing Kreia and Handmaiden go through), magnified the effect.

 

Basically, Jedi who respected life for its own sake, the Light Siders, were so overwhelmed by the effects on the Force from so many people dying that they perished from leaving themselves open to the Force "feedback" from so many deaths.

 

Those Jedi who leaned Dark Side didn't share the same respect for life that the Light Siders did and therefore weren't as adversely affected; Malachor also reinforced the idea that "necessary casualties" are a means to secure greater power.

 

As a corollary to the Obi-Wan example...as far as I know, Vader wasn't so drastically affected by Alderaan's destruction, and he had a front-row seat.

 

The Exile took a different approach--she cut herself off from the Force so she couldn't get that Force feedback from all the deaths she was (in part) responsible for.

 

One problem with that, the Force is the Force. It is not light or dark. People can twist it for their own dark use or light use. So if Dark Jedi are not affected by these deaths, that would mean that they are trained for these types of things (which the Jedi try to do too), or, more believably, something about their dark powers (using the Force) allows them to block it out. That's just my guess using that logic.

[luckyariot]

One problem with that, the Force is the Force. It is not light or dark. People can twist it for their own dark use or light use. So if Dark Jedi are not affected by these deaths, that would mean that they are trained for these types of things (which the Jedi try to do too), or, more believably, something about their dark powers (using the Force) allows them to block it out. That's just my guess using that logic.

:)That would be the Potenium theory, my friend. Never proven as fact, and even if it has some merit, Lucas himself (along with almost every Star Wars work) that the Force has a Light and Dark side. This is evidenced all the time... if you have ever read the Clone Wars comics, there is a part after the battle of Jabiim where Anakin was trying to keep a Jedi alive by using the (Dark Side of the) Force to pump her heart for her. Basically Force Choke, but on her arteries and vertices, on and off. It caused her great pain, and she later died anyway, but Anakin didn't want her to suffer. If it is simply intention, than using the Dark Side 'for good' like in that case (it is subjective) would be pretty much impossible. Sorry, but... the Potenium thing is another debate altogether.

[TKA-001]

Never proven as fact, and even if it has some merit

It has no merit whλtsoever. The dark side is destructive and corrupts. Exar Kun is proof of that: he turned to the dark side solely because he was corrupted from using the dark side's powers, which gradually twisted his allegiance and agenda. That's what the dark side does to people, as it did at Malachor. It always gets under my skin when people ignore this, because the movies and a lot of the EU makes the nature of the dark side very obvious.