Dow Dips Below 10,000

[mimartin]

You know you can click the link with the Senate Vote to see the bill. However, here is the link. The bill is a lot different from a state bill as it is very long. If you want an easier read try Wikipedia.

[GarfieldJL]

You know you can click the link with the Senate Vote to see the bill. However, here is the link. The bill is a lot different from a state bill as it is very long. If you want an easier read try Wikipedia.

 

It's working now but don't see anything about the two banks in question. The bill I saw that had to do with this had McCain not voting. The problem was the sub-prime mortgages and I don't see anything about making things less transparent or having more of those in this particular bill.

 

The Republicans did try to fix this issue, concerning sub-prime mortgages.

[mimartin]

It's working now but don't see anything about the two banks in question. [/Quote]You will not see the name of individual banks in this bill. The bill has to do with the industry and not any two indiviual banks. You do understand that this problem is larger than any two banks or any one region of the country?

The problem was the sub-prime mortgages and I don't see anything about making things less transparent or having more of those in this particular bill.[/Quote] Wow you know what caused the 750 billion dollar problem. Even the greatest economic minds have not figured it out yet, but you know the entire mess was created by subprime loans.

 

If it was subprime interest rates that caused this entire mess then someone more intelligent than me would have figured that out by now. Subprime is one of the contributing factors, but by itself it is little more than a bump in the road.

 

Turning these subprime loans into a financial investment and then selling them repeatedly is another larger contributing factor (which was made possible by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act).

 

Allowing Banks to enter the financial markets and insurance markets also led to this disaster (again made possible by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act).

 

Banks making 100% and larger loans to consumers also is a contributing factor.

 

The over inflation of the housing market and then the lowering of those housing values contributed to this problem too.

 

 

Many other reasons that I’m unable to think of…

 

Even if you fixed the Subprime loan problem, it does not mean this disaster does not happen, as there are far too many other problems to factor into this.

 

You can try to blame one party or one individual, but the problem is way larger than that. The Republican, the Democrats, Congress, the White House, the Banks and the consumer are all to blame and there is plenty of blame to go around. 750 billion to be precise.

[GarfieldJL]

You will not see the name of individual banks in this bill. The bill has to do with the industry and not any two indiviual banks. You do understand that this problem is larger than any two banks or any one region of the country? Wow you know what caused the 750 billion dollar problem. Even the greatest economic minds have not figured it out yet, but you know the entire mess was created by subprime loans.

 

The two banks in question are tied to the federal government they weren't normal banks.

 

If it was subprime interest rates that caused this entire mess then someone more intelligent than me would have figured that out by now. Subprime is one of the contributing factors, but by itself it is little more than a bump in the road.

 

No because Obama was involved in forcing banks to issue loans they wouldn't have issued otherwise, that is where Obama is involved in this.

 

Turning these subprime loans into a financial investment and then selling them repeatedly is another larger contributing factor (which was made possible by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act).

Which if I recall President Bush had tried to get fixed but the Dems stonewalled.

 

 

I'll get back to this when I can but need to get some sleep now.

[Web Rider]

The two banks in question are tied to the federal government they weren't normal banks.

ALL banks have ties to the federal government.

 

No because Obama was involved in forcing banks to issue loans they wouldn't have issued otherwise, that is where Obama is involved in this.

Dood, you almost made me spit up my drink. I can picture it now, Obama going around forcing these multi-billion dollar banks to issue bad loans. Man, what's even more hilarious is that you're serious.

 

Okay, Obama did not force banks to do anything. Anything a bank did was the decision of their corporate executives.

[mimartin]

The two banks in question are tied to the federal government they weren't normal banks.[/Quote] Well I guess you really don’t have it all figured out. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are just a contributing factor and not the entire cause of this mess.

 

 

No because Obama was involved in forcing banks to issue loans they wouldn't have issued otherwise, that is where Obama is involved in this.[/Quote] Obama is Superman. He caused a 750 billion dollar problem without even being in the banking industry or the government. What your statement has to do with the topic is beyond me. The Dow dropped because of the credit crisis and that was not caused by any one individual, but by the greed of everyone. This live now pay later attitude by most of America will be our undoing.

 

You obliviously do not understand the scale of this problem trying to lay the blame on any one individual is silly at best. Did Obama suit force banks into issuing 100% variable rate mortgages to people all over the country? I’ll save you some time, no it did not.

 

I’d love to blame my favorite scapegoat and fellow Texan George Bush, but this mess is even beyond him. Yes, he is a factor, but not the only individual responsible.

 

 

Which if I recall President Bush had tried to get fixed but the Dems stonewalled.[/Quote] President Bush tried to fix it the other day and the Republicans in the House stonewalled.

[Achilles]

President Bush tried to fix it the other day and the Republicans in the House stonewalled.

But that was Pelosi's fault remember? She hurt their feelings and stuff.

[mimartin]

But that was Pelosi's fault remember? She hurt their feelings and stuff.

 

Oh, I forgot.

 

The House Republicans are so sensitive. I guess that is what they mean by compassionate conservative.

[GarfieldJL]

But that was Pelosi's fault remember? She hurt their feelings and stuff.

 

Pelosi was only part of the problem, fact was it was a bill that a drunken lemur could have wrote a better one.

 

I actually listened to a Congressman in real life as he called the bill a piece of garbage.

 

However, this should have been fixed long before 2008, to blame the Republicans particularly the President and John McCain is ridiculous considering they were trying to fix this problem.

[mimartin]

However, this should have been fixed long before 2008, to blame the Republicans particularly the President and John McCain is ridiculous considering they were trying to fix this problem.

You keep repeating this as if it is a fact. No, John McCain is not to blame individually and no one is blaming John McCain individually. He did vote to deregulate the Banking Industry, but so did 53 other Senators. You are the only one pointing fingers at individuals. I’m actually waiting for you to blame Obama for KOTOR 3 not being made yet.

 

However, upon hearing about the Banking problem John McCain first reaction was to get more capital investments into the bank industry by further deregulation and allowing more creative accounting. He said this at a press conference for the world to see (if you want to see this press conference then watch and listen to the link Achilles provided in the Keating Economics thread). So if this was his proposal then I am proud the Democrats shut the Republicans down. The problem could have been even bigger.

[Astor]

But that was Pelosi's fault remember? She hurt their feelings and stuff.

 

Then surely, this could have been a chance for the Republicans to man up and ignore the nasty lady by doing the right thing?

[GarfieldJL]

You keep repeating this as if it is a fact. No, John McCain is not to blame individually and no one is blaming John McCain individually. He did vote to deregulate the Banking Industry, but so did 53 other Senators. You are the only one pointing fingers at individuals. I’m actually waiting for you to blame Obama for KOTOR 3 not being made yet.

 

Why would I blame Obama for KotOR III?

 

I'm pointing fingers primarily at the Dems is because Freddie/Fannie were not typical banks, the bill you are looking at has little to do with the mess involving subprime mortgages.

 

Furthermore, the Democrats were taking money from the two Federally subsidized banks and they were blocking legislation to fix the problem.

 

However, upon hearing about the Banking problem John McCain first reaction was to get more capital investments into the bank industry by further deregulation and allowing more creative accounting. He said this at a press conference for the world to see (if you want to see this press conference then watch and listen to the link Achilles provided in the Keating Economics thread). So if this was his proposal then I am proud the Democrats shut the Republicans down. The problem could have been even bigger.

 

Bad example, the Keating Five situation was 4 Democrats and 1 Republican.

[mimartin]

Why would I blame Obama for KotOR III?[/Quote] You've blamed Obama for everything else.

I'm pointing fingers primarily at the Dems is because Freddie/Fannie were not typical banks, the bill you are looking at has little to do with the mess involving subprime mortgages.[/Quote]I have a little education in Finance and Accounting so I don’t need you to tell me what caused this mess or what Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are or how they operate. They are contributing factors, but nothing more than a huge bump in the road. They are not the only two banks involved in this credit crisis.

Furthermore, the Democrats were taking money from the two Federally subsidized banks and they were blocking legislation to fix the problem.[/Quote] That may mean something if they were the only two institutions involved in this problem or if that was the topic. You really believe no lobbyist visited the Republicans and the Democrats that voted for the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999?

 

Bad example, the Keating Five situation was 4 Democrats and 1 Republican.

No, it is not. My example had nothing to do with the Keating Five. My example had to do with the current crisis and nothing more. It had to do with McCain 1st press conference after being informed about the current crisis. You are just mistaken or refuse to listen to what McCain said.

[Web Rider]

now now, lets not blame the politicians, lets blame the guys who really deserve it.

 

Like this guy: http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081006150152.aspx

[mimartin]

now now, lets not blame the politicians, lets blame the guys who really deserve it.

 

Like this guy: http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081006150152.aspx

That can't be right, according to GarfieldJL only Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are having problems. Lehman isn't part of either.

[GarfieldJL]

ALL banks have ties to the federal government.

 

Not at the level Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae did, they are actually technically owned by the Federal Government.

 

Dood, you almost made me spit up my drink. I can picture it now, Obama going around forcing these multi-billion dollar banks to issue bad loans. Man, what's even more hilarious is that you're serious.:¬:

 

Sorry that the truth is so funny.

 

In 1995, Illinois Gov. Jim Edgar balked at implementing the federal motor voter law out of concern that letting people register via postcard and blocking the state from pruning voter rolls might invite vote fraud. A young lawyer named Barak Obama, a community organizer himself, sued on behalf of ACORN and won. ACORN later invited Obama to train its staff on voter registration drives.

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/09/27/consumer-rights-league-obama-acorn-and-the-subprime-mortgage/

 

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/election/s_584284.html

 

 

Okay, Obama did not force banks to do anything. Anything a bank did was the decision of their corporate executives.

 

That isn't entirely true.

 

http://www.mediacircus.com/2008/10/obama-sued-citibank-under-cra-to-force-it-to-make-bad-loans/

 

Case Name

Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Fed. Sav. Bank Fair Housing/Lending/Insurance

Docket / Court 94 C 4094 ( N.D. Ill. ) FH-IL-0011

State/Territory Illinois

Case Summary

Plaintiffs filed their class action lawsuit on July 6, 1994, alleging that Citibank had engaged in redlining practices in the Chicago metropolitan area in violation of the Equal Credit Opportunity Act (ECOA), 15 U.S.C. 1691; the Fair Housing Act, 42 U.S.C. 3601-3619; the Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution; a*nd* 42 U.S.C. 1981, 1982. Plaintiffs alleged that the Defendant-bank rejected loan applications of minority applicants while approving loan applications filed by white applicants with similar financial characteristics and credit histories. Plaintiffs sought injunctive relief, actual damages, and punitive damages.

 

U.S. District Court Judge Ruben Castillo certified the Plaintiffs’ suit as a class action on June 30, 1995. Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Fed. Sav. Bank, 162 F.R.D. 322 (N.D. Ill. 1995). Also on June 30, Judge Castillo granted Plaintiffs’ motion to compel discovery of a sample of Defendant-bank’s loan application files. Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Fed. Sav. Bank, 162 F.R.D. 338 (N.D. Ill. 1995).

 

The parties voluntarily dismissed the case on May 12, 1998, pursuant to a settlement agreement.

Plaintiff’s Lawyers Alexis, Hilary I. (Illinois)

FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Childers, Michael Allen (Illinois)

FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Clayton, Fay (Illinois)

FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Cummings, Jeffrey Irvine (Illinois)

FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Love, Sara Norris (Virginia)

FH-IL-0011-9000

Miner, Judson Hirsch (Illinois)

FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Obama, Barack H. (Illinois)

FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Wickert, John Henry (Illinois)

FH-IL-0011-9000

 

And the lawsuit was courtesy of Acorn.

 

ONE key pioneer of ACORN's subprime-loan shakedown racket was Madeline Talbott - an activist with extensive ties to Barack Obama. She was also in on the ground floor of the disastrous turn in Fannie Mae's mortgage policies.

 

Long the director of Chicago ACORN, Talbott is a specialist in "direct action" - organizers' term for their militant tactics of intimidation and disruption. Perhaps her most famous stunt was leading a group of ACORN protesters breaking into a meeting of the Chicago City Council to push for a "living wage" law, shouting in defiance as she was arrested for mob action and disorderly conduct. But her real legacy may be her drive to push banks into making risky mortgage loans.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09292008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/os_dangerous_pals_131216.htm

[tk102]

Dear readers, the topic of this thread is not partisanship, unfortunately. Instead it is a much more serious one: global economic recession. Light-hearted romps of McCain v. Obama have their place in other threads so let's keep them there.

[Jae Onasi]

The Fed cut the interest rate by half a percent this morning before the markets opened. I'm not sure if it's having much of an effect, except perhaps preventing another massive free-fall day in the market.

 

I would like to make one note, however. For many of you, this is the first major drop in the market that you've seen, and it can be almost frightening since it's such a dramatic change. However, it's not my first experience with a major drop, and while it is very severe, I'd like to point out that these things are cyclical. We're likely in a recession now (if the gov't would finally admit it) and it may get worse before it gets better. Down times like this are inevitable because that's the nature of business cycles. However, it's not going to be bad forever. There is certainly a panic element in the market the last couple weeks, and I think for good reason given the severity of bank meltdowns. At some point, however, it will hit bottom, and then the only way to go is back up again.

[tk102]

In addition to the rate cut that Jae mentioned, the Fed is also taking a rather dramatic (and a bit risky) step in side-stepping banks altogether to issue short term loans to directly to non-financial businesses (aka "commerical paper"). This is the first time this has been done since the Great Depression. Hopefully this will help solidify economic confidence and thaw the credit market, but it does stick U.S. taxpayers with the burden if companies cannot repay their loans.

[GarfieldJL]

In addition to the rate cut that Jae mentioned, the Fed is also taking a rather dramatic (and a bit risky) step in side-stepping banks altogether to issue short term loans to directly to non-financial businesses (aka "commerical paper"). This is the first time this has been done since the Great Depression. Hopefully this will help solidify economic confidence and thaw the credit market, but it does stick U.S. taxpayers with the burden if companies cannot repay their loans.

 

Is there any financial oversight over this? Cause this is our tax money, and I'd like to know the money is actually going to where it's supposed to.

[tk102]

Is there any financial oversight over this? Cause this is our tax money, and I'd like to know the money is actually going to where it's supposed to.

 

The chairman of Federal Reserve is Ben Bernanke. I'd suppose he has some say in how it will be administered.

[Jae Onasi]

Sen. Schumer just suggested a program where the gov't would make short-term loans to small businesses if they can't get loans from banks because of the credit crisis.

[Yar-El]

Dow below 9,000 in late afternoon trading

Tech overshadowed by weak financials, energy, health care

 

Just a quick update for today's lows.