End of Capitalism and Beginning of Communism?

[Darth Avlectus]

Forgive my interjection, GTA:SWcity however I fear I must advise a slight lack of appreciative endeavour upon merely one point in particular.

<snip>

Mental issues are physical in nature, and cannot be treated by simply changing your attitude with a bit of how'dy do and suck a fart. Hence they are strict medical illnesses.

[/Quote]

 

Suppose it depends on the illness then. With exceptions, what I say still holds, Maybe not *EVERY* case, but certainly not nothing.

I have run into something like that--but usually those cases are deferred somewhere else as the help I volunteered is ineffective for people with severe aversions relating to it. Thanks. People like there to make sure I don't unwittingly induce another "episode" in that guy, while the government sends me those rehab cases who may be a few cards short in other ways, ex criminals, or just simply screw offs. Most of what I speak of are wife beaters, druggies, derelycts, that sort. Forgive me, but I don't look at every single detail of every case I get.

 

You'll need to be more specific, but in generalisation, oh yes they are.

<snip> (wonderful definition BTW, seriously)

It has long been said much of evil is its ignorance.

 

Live opposite Evil, like vanir anagram is Darth Rivan?

 

EVIL in the way you defined it, ignorant:

Contractors who knowingly install faulty cheap parts but couldn't care less--and continue to remain unappologetic and unrepentant.

Repairmen who decide to charge for work not done. As a mode of operation.

Businesses whose bosses meet up and form a trust. Squeezing the people.

Execs who continue to perform poorly and bribe their board to keep them there. Then take the money and run when the moment is right for them--couldn't care less for the company or its employees or what will happen.

AIG and their little hawaii seminar with emergency bailout money-self explanatory.

The Andreas family heading ADM whose patriarch has been seen with every presidential cabinet from 1950 to 1998. When asked why: "They just like my money". When confronted with the notion that he's perceived as a pig at the wellfare trough: "If they want to look at it that way". It didn't bother him.

Sensationalist bulls**t artists like Alex Jones selling fear mongering. Though he uses a lot of factual stuff, he presents it in a fallacious manner. Driving a panic into people. How he overtly yells "we're not your slaves" to bilderberg heads. Were he really on the up-and-up he'd have been 'whacked' already.

You want to make corpse hills out of them? I think those are examples of the evil for which you speak.

 

Ones who dont fit the mold (though we may not be perfect, I think our heads are in the right place):

Court reporter (not law firms--those are all in the '?' category) companies who have helped take big time companies to task in court. Though they do make millions, they are also benefactors and contributors to charities in amounts that little people probably never could, Or fund children's cancer reserch.

Johnson and johnson. They've been an all american company and I see them doing things all the time to promote better life similar to above. There are numerous others like them if you look.

Companies like the one I'm in who make a point of avoiding shoddy work. Trying to rehab people to work. Making sure things are done right.

We have our shortcomings and I'd like to pound some sense into some of them, but we don't tolerate grubbing theivery, sexual harassement, ripping off, showing off, etc. etc..

Business owners and stores who give discounts to disabled veterans, to severly handicapped.

 

Is there not some kind of consideration for those who give back to the community? Those who donate? Or are our heads still on the guillotine chopping row as well?

 

---------

 

Allronix, thank you. Actually, now you're making sense to me.

For the record *I* didn't mean it in a mocking way like THAT. I've been through similar. I guess I lucked out in ways you didn't. We've come to different conclusions.

 

The free market doesn't solve ALL. That's why we have quality controls--Apparently not enforced well enough. THIS is more of what I am talking about: enforcing existing laws, regulations and tariffs and keeping competition intact for the sake of general BENFIT. I don't think those kinds of regualtions are socialist, Perhaps merely sematics and formalities differences.

 

I don't view regulations meant to keep business clean and to protect competition as socialist. However, there are so many laws regualtions and things that contradict that it needs a cleaning up.

As does the trash flooded into our country that other countries made but won't take back.

 

I do not believe either one party or the other is responsible like it is being made out to be. They're playing good cop-bad cop.

I have questions about that stuff like many of us, and could go on, but I'd rather not.

 

You're probably sick of me by now anyway.

[Allronix]

Nah. Actually, I thank you greatly. We both work hard, and want to be compensated fairly. We're just disagreeing on the how-to part.

 

I know I'm too radical for most. Heck, just look at where I landed on the compass. It's my job to push things one way, someone on the right will push it the other way, and the folks in the middle will decide who has the better argument.

[vanir]

I personally feel the thread is really getting somewhere, if nobody minds me saying so. Great points guys.

 

Here's one I've thought about before.

Is there not some kind of consideration for those who give back to the community? Those who donate? Or are our heads still on the guillotine chopping row as well?

I have come to the conclusion this is the human standard. It is not exceptional, but is the minimum standard for humans to coexist peacefully and productively. Yet indeed there is reward, but it is one of consequence. It is due to an all too common lack of this standard most notably among the cultures of capitalist democracies (but also a dozen other popular devotions).

 

Here is what you receive:

Other people's children, particularly those of abusive individuals inherently respect you in friendship. Abusive individuals fear your influence as it takes the authority they demand to have with violence.

With less, personally irrelevent concerns to clutter your mind and cloud your judgement, you tend to be a clearer thinker when approaching complicated issues. You become a good problem solver, someone who can act immediately and intelligently in a crisis. This also has an authority of its own.

You have a friendly disposition when approaching strangers. Sincere individuals find you enlivening, whilst dangerous individuals find you challenging regardless of your physical build and/or nature.

You have honest and genuine self esteem, which becomes prevalent when faced with circumstances requiring extreme amounts of personal strength. Whilst such considerate people tend to continually second guess themselves, the fact is they never lack for drive, commitment, professionalism, imagination and the gusto to see anything through to the end.

We are the kind of people employers feel they've hired at a bargain at any price (though make no mistake capitalists will seek to pay as little as possible). We tend to find advancement opportunities more as a recognition than any imposed establishment (though still need to negotiate for such recognition at times).

We often see points of view more distracted individuals simply cannot.

 

In conclusion our rewards are in that place originally described (as heaven) by the Hebrews, ie. within a better human disposition and all that it entails, when compared to an individual whom has chosen to place themselves in a poorly human disposition, and the real-world consequences and self loathing that it entails.

[Adavardes]

I read this thread, and I nearly cried at the ignorance of the first post. So, let's just break this down and explain how this is wrong:

 

The End of American capitalism?

Market turmoil draining the nation's wealth may claim another casualty

 

Debating on LucasForums brings a variety of perspectives. Each person has a unique experience based upon where they live. People living in the United States (and in some other countries) structure everything on unregulated systems. Capitalism is what drives the American Dream. You are able to pursue different avenues to secure a house, job, and other necessities. We take it all for granted.

 

Oh really? The American Dream? Let me tell you a little something about the American Dream: it's corrupt, vile, and contaminated with greed. People exploit it for more money than they could ever truly need, and it leaves many of us poor and helpless. A lot of people say that the only poor individuals are deadbeats, but that's just not true. Because corporations monopolise pretty much every facet of American life, many people have no other choice but to work with these heartless systems of economic oppression, who would lay you off as soon as look at you. Where has this all sprung from? The real "American Dream": Greed. The entire system is fueled by an emotion that makes us little more than beasts. It encourages materialism.

 

What are things, really? If you have what you need, food, shelter, do you really need all that money? It's all about want, not need, it's all about fueling that horrid greed that we seem so fond of perpetuating. People do their jobs not because they love it, or cherish the opportunity to contribute to society, and even humanity. They do it for that almighty dollar, that has sapped us of everything decent. We're left with lower quality products, lower quality motivation, and though we're surrounded by things we want so much, we corrupt ourselves in our quest for their possession. Is this really what humanity has come to? Selfish beasts hording their possessions with little value beyond what our minds make of them?

 

Several of the converations on LucasForums deals with regulating systems. Universal Healthcare (National Healthcare) is such a regulated system. Any type of system in which government has an involvement in is regulated. Some of the systems in place are important, but others are more redundant systems.

 

If the government steps in and nationalizes systems, we will become one step closer to communism. U.S. government will be able to tell you how to eat, talk, walk, buy, and how to do buisness. Your freedom of choice, variety, and other behaviors will be over.

 

Comments? Thoughts? Theories?

 

The bolded portion is exceptionally ignorant. It's induced by a fear and narrow-mindedness for what socialism truly is. More governmental control merely means that those who exploit the system, those who make more money than one could ever truly need or even want by moving it around in a clever fashion and avoiding taxes, will have a harder time doing everything they can to put themselves ahead at the cost of livelihood and happiness for those less dishonest.

 

We're to weigh lives in monetary value? Perhaps this theory would hold weight, if money were always justly earned, but for the most part, it has not. It has been made in the rape of a mom and pop society, and the replacement of corporations that don't hesitate to do whatever necessary to make more and more money, with no regard for what is truly important. The rich haven't truly earned their money beyond having the presence of mind to cheat and lie, save for a few exceptions.

 

And those people, in my opinion, deserve condemnation if society is ever to grow past this. Doctors should do what they do not because it pays more than anything else, but because they love to do it, and medical universities should provide the teaching because they can and it helps create new generations of saviors, not because they make a pretty penny off of tuition. A lot of people say that those Doctors, inventors, lawyers, that they do it because of prices, but the costs are high because of the same issues, and it all leads back to a root of capitalism. The system has had its time, and has done nothing for the world but cause it to lose so much of what once made it great. It's time we start looking at the true quality of life and stop clinging to the shiny objects that never held any value in the first place.

 

Humanity could be so much better. And if SOCIALISM, not communism, is what it takes? Then bring it on.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I read this thread, and I nearly cried at the ignorance of the first post.

Welcome to Kavar's Corner. Enjoy your stay.

 

http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=192858

[Darth Avlectus]

I personally feel the thread is really getting somewhere, if nobody minds me saying so. Great points guys.

 

 

I'm really at a loss how to respond specifically to that post.

Thanks. I've never heard such a comprehensive...reciting (?) of philisophical and analytical reasoning (beautifully put together) to make such a broad yet focal response. (Or dissertation?)

 

 

 

It's a real challenge doing the appropriate or righteous thing considering (and not being pompus about it BTW) it is in the face of a system offering so many alternatives to *not* do it that way. However there is no telling what the, non material, and in many senses non statistical, invaluable, rewards are in the effects such actions will have. Or even to be able to tell the effects alone.

 

Taking this 'thornier path' (I think) was never really meant to be pleasureable. However the results and rewards are truly beyond measure if one knows what to look for. Even then, I think the true magnitude of the effect still escapes us on a level of comprehension for even the most knowledgeable and wise.

 

 

 

What I CAN see now that I (maybe others) possibly hadn't: there is lots of confusion as to what kind of capitalism/free market many of us actually level with. If it helps, any, I'd like to make a distinction (credit, again to michael savage) between two that at least I can see:

 

National free market capitalism and International free market capitalism.

 

 

One thing I am seeing is that more and more Americans prefer the former.

 

A research paper a few years old by now on a track record of nafta said that, at its inception against majority votes and wishes of our people, it was put into place.

 

I fear because of it now, our national identity is being erased.

 

It isn't strange to me that American people of all political alignments wish to see a stop to "floods of foreign garbage" in our country and see the whole "Made in America" actually mean something again. No offense intended to foreign producers, but at some point, we must begin to produce and provide for ourselves again.

 

To not do so is folly, and frankly is an evolution in the wrong direction. If our trains and ports (air & sea) were to be attacked, it would be disastrous.

 

When it was on a more community to national scale, our problems were small compared to now. Plus it was MUCH more managable.

 

Economists might call it isolationist and claim it's "not progressive". To the contrary, "if a communty doesn't stop growing, it will DIE" --John Taylor Gatto, Dumbing us down. Our nation should be thought of as a community.

 

As opposed to what? As opposed to a "network"--which essentially never stops growing and is analagous (spelling?) to the international scale.

 

Elaborate on this however you will.

[GarfieldJL]

First order of business would be a serious audit of the defense contractors. War profiteering used to be a hanging offense, now it's accepted practice.

 

And you're implying that its only the US to blame, seriously I'm getting very ticked at people trying to blame the US for everything. You know who was selling Saddam military hardware after the first Gulf War? It was the French, Germans, Russians, and Chinese, not the United States.

 

And while it may be looked upon as isolationist, we should definitely look at letting our allies cover more of the defense burden.

 

Yeah I'm sure the country of Polland can match the Russians when it comes to defense. And there probably will be a war or military confrontation with Russia.

 

Second, a look at corporate welfare and the tax codes. We should not be rewarding with tax breaks megacorps that put our jobs overseas. For that matter, close up those tax loopholes so that the large businesses pay their share. In the 60's, corporate taxes made up about 40% of federal income. Now, most of the largest companies pay no tax at all.

 

Actually no companies will pay taxes, they either pass the cost on to consumers or they pack their bags and head to another country. The main problem right now is company mismanagement, labor unions, etc. which make it extremely hard for a US company to be competitive. The reason why the big 3 automakers are in trouble is the Democrat special interest groups known as Unions.

 

And while China puts massive tariffs on our goods, we let them dump cheap and poisonous crap on our shores. Levying an equal tariff may convince our partner to lower it or convince companies to not use their sweatshops.

 

I can agree with you there.

 

Third, big investments in infrastructure. Our hospitals are decaying, our bridges are falling apart, the roads have massive potholes, the schools are overcrowded, and we STILL have Katrina survivors living like refugees. This ties into point #1, as we can't be the world's enforcer while our backyard falls apart.

 

Okay I'm going to put my foot down on this one. A lot of the problems in this area isn't necessarily due to lack of funding. It's due to mismanagement, pure and simple. I've seen roads in Montana stripped to the bedrock and repaved in a matter of a few weeks tops where it takes most of the summer if that to fix potholes in a road in the Midwest.

 

The problem with Hospitals is that a lot of doctors have retired and/or quit due to frivalous lawsuits. The problem with schools aren't just overcrowding which some are some aren't, it's the teacher unions that make it extremely difficult to fire the incompetitent idiots among them that have no business teaching in the first place.

 

As far as going isolationist, the last time we seriously took a back seat, World War II happened, that war could have been ended a lot sooner if we had gotten involved when it first started.

[jrrtoken]

And you're implying that its only the US to blame, seriously I'm getting very ticked at people trying to blame the US for everything. You know who was selling Saddam military hardware after the first Gulf War? It was the French, Germans, Russians, and Chinese, not the United States.

O RLY? Well then, guess who sold VX and other weapons to Saddam during the Iraq-Iran War, only to find out the he used it against his own people?

Actually no companies will pay taxes, they either pass the cost on to consumers or they pack their bags and head to another country. The main problem right now is company mismanagement, labor unions, etc. which make it extremely hard for a US company to be competitive. The reason why the big 3 automakers are in trouble is the Democrat special interest groups known as Unions.

What? The unions are to blame? The whole reason why the automakers are in trouble is due to their own mismanagement, not the workers. And when in God's name are the unions to blame? Is it the workers' fault that their company is producing crap cars?

The problem with schools aren't just overcrowding which some are some aren't, it's the teacher unions that make it extremely difficult to fire the incompetitent idiots among them that have no business teaching in the first place.

There's no way that it is the teachers' fault. First, we can blame the government for propping up worthless programs such as No Child Left Behind, and we can also blame them for underfunding education as a whole.

[GarfieldJL]

O RLY? Well then, guess who sold VX and other weapons to Saddam during the Iraq-Iran War, only to find out the he used it against his own people?

 

I said after the first Gulf Warm, there were no sanctions on Iraq prior to that war.

 

What? The unions are to blame? The whole reason why the automakers are in trouble is due to their own mismanagement, not the workers. And when in God's name are the unions to blame? Is it the workers' fault that their company is producing crap cars?

 

Explains why car companies in Indiana and Texas are doing just fine and are still making a profit.

 

Seriously $70+ an hour is kinda ridiculous, I'm surprised they hadn't gone under already. So yeah it is legitimate to point fingers at the Unions.

 

There's no way that it is the teachers' fault. First, we can blame the government for propping up worthless programs such as No Child Left Behind, and we can also blame them for underfunding education as a whole.

 

In this case you can't, because just throwing money at a problem when the instructor is an incompetitent idiot or the money is being funnelled to something else like administrator salaries doesn't help the situation at all.

[Darth Avlectus]

And you're implying that its only the US to blame, seriously I'm getting very ticked at people trying to blame the US for everything. You know who was selling Saddam military hardware after the first Gulf War? It was the French, Germans, Russians, and Chinese, not the United States.

Yeah, I'm personally sick of the 'blame America' game too.

 

 

 

Yeah I'm sure the country of Polland can match the Russians when it comes to defense. And there probably will be a war or military confrontation with Russia..

 

Mysteriously, the only one even saying ANYTHING about this in the press is KPBN/PBS and the BBC...odd considering how they are on a political perspective. Then again ther aren't part of the conglomo media, which is good. That and the right sources on the internet. There is a very BAD potential outlash just waiting to happen right there alone.

 

The only thing I saw in the mainstream on this was one little article on CNN about a month ago, slanting it like you called it...that the US is provoking it, or rather Vladmir Putin was saying that. Nothing since.

 

 

Actually no companies will pay taxes, they either pass the cost on to consumers or they pack their bags and head to another country. The main problem right now is company mismanagement, labor unions, etc. which make it extremely hard for a US company to be competitive. The reason why the big 3 automakers are in trouble is the Democrat special interest groups known as Unions. [/Quote]

 

Tell me about it.

 

(both sides are going to hate me for this)

I won't deny I have my suspicions about the gas companies like ignoring and shutting down wells to manipulate supply. However, there is a very high tax on gasoline too.

 

 

Okay I'm going to put my foot down on this one. A lot of the problems in this area isn't necessarily due to lack of funding. It's due to mismanagement, pure and simple. I've seen roads in Montana stripped to the bedrock and repaved in a matter of a few weeks tops where it takes most of the summer if that to fix potholes in a road in the Midwest.

 

I have seen a dramatic difference in road pavement from one state/region to the next state/region. Nevada, they can work a mile of pavement recap in one week on a highway, where it takes a whole month to do a single block in a neighborhood in California.

WHAT ARE THEY DOING?!

 

Transparent public auditing--such a great idea, but it will never happen because politicians are too self serving, always were, and always will be.

 

The problem with Hospitals is that a lot of doctors have retired and/or quit due to frivalous lawsuits. The problem with schools aren't just overcrowding which some are some aren't, it's the teacher unions that make it extremely difficult to fire the incompetitent idiots among them that have no business teaching in the first place.

[/Quote]

 

Or the politics involved between staff in both afforementioned state run institutions and third parties. Arbitrary oversight comittee boards. People buddy-buddy cliques with the school, businesses and government alike.

 

 

 

 

As far as going isolationist, the last time we seriously took a back seat, World War II happened, that war could have been ended a lot sooner if we had gotten involved when it first started.

 

This is not an easy decision.

We are already stretched thin.

 

Market wise: If we hold onto international markets, our in-jeopardy identity may dissolve into the NAU...yet if we do let go, we will cause the entire world to collapse economically...

 

Militarily: I'm at a loss. I have heard some excerpts from a few years ago of a pakistani relations board member praising Obama's support of pakistan for the past 15 years. Whether it is still the same now or not, the whole thing is very precarious... If Israel believes America's administration won't help them--and they are under attack, they may just decide to hit all of their red buttons. Our other allies the same if they believe we have bailed.

 

NOT good.

 

If we keep on as we are, though, we will go from broke to destitude. We can't be of help to anybody if we are dead.

 

We have to figure something out, that is for sure.

 

 

I fear what has happened is, with Iraq now as less of a Suu'ni obstacle for Shi'ites (the hapless third party being Curds, on our side but a minority), we may well have unwittingly created a 'super Iran' state who has Russia's backing.