An Animation Computer

[Q]

Have you already ordered the GTX 260?

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

yes

[Q]

OK. Just see how well the software she's using runs on it and if it doesn't do well you should be able to sell it at a minimal loss depending on how much you paid for it. The way nVidia has gimped the newer GeForce cards so that they can't be flashed in order to run the Quadro FX drivers could very well make running that software smoothly impossible, so you'll just have to find out for yourself. Everyone that I've asked is still of the opinion that you should be OK with that 260, however.

 

And yes, computer parts are usually at their cheapest here in the States, especially if you know how to dig for the best deals and you aren't afraid of large mail-in rebates.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

OK. Just see how well the software she's using runs on it and if it doesn't do well you should be able to sell it at a minimal loss depending on how much you paid for it.

That's the plan

 

And yes, computer parts are usually at their cheapest here in the States, especially if you know how to dig for the best deals and you aren't afraid of large mail-in rebates.

Avery's idea of getting parts from the US seems pretty appealing, but will there be any warranty on the parts? (just thinking of when i build myself a comp)

[Q]

There are quite a few sellers on Fleabay here in the US who are willing to ship internationally. The shipping would be more, of course, but it'd definitely be worth looking into. You could also ask Astro, who lives in Oz, where he buys his stuff.

 

And as long as you buy it new from a reputable seller (even on Fleabay), the warranties should still be good.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

And as long as you buy it new from a reputable seller (even on Fleabay), the warranties should still be good.

So the part companies' warranties themselves aren't bound to a certain geographic location?

[Q]

I would have to say that it would depend on the company, but since most or all of the big ones sell internationally, I can't see why it would be a problem, but I'll admit that I've never had to deal with this issue before.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

I'll have to look into it then.

[True_Avery]

Would Fuzzy Ball run better or on a less powerful quadro than a powerful geforce? (or the same?)

Now that is a question I cannot fully answer, unfortunately. It would definitely be something to look into, and I'll ask a few of my teachers later.

 

I'm assuming that even though quadros would outperform geforces at this, that the iRay addon improves the geforces performance for real time rendering than they would have done without it?

Well, I think the definition of "Real Time" is being used in multiple iterations here. From the video I was watching iRay on, it was still having to do a few render passes which meant it was not true 30 frames per second real time. More like 1 frame every 30 seconds. It is still impressive, but it isn't real time just yet.

 

Like I said, it is closer to something called IPR rendering where in the program renders a single frame anytime anything on screen is changed. The render is of slightly less quality, but it allowed viewed work to be seen much faster. If anything, it is sort of like Furry Ball on super steroids since they are essentially doing the same thing, except iRay is using specifically the nVidia GPU's to better effect.

 

True real-time motion is usually achieved through a separate program. Half-Life 2's Hammer editor does this, as you can start up the game on the fly while making a map and you can run around in real time to see your progress so far. That "real-time" would definitely be taking full control of a geForce.

 

The 3d render view, however, is primarily using OpenGL which communicates better through a Quadro driver. The difference is, Dragon Age is using Directx while Maya is using OpenGL. I'd be willing to bet than even though iRay is a very advanced render engine, it will still primarily be using OpenGL to display.

 

Hope that made sense. I confused myself a little there.

 

I wonder, hardware prices in the US are so cheap... Is it the cheapest in the world or are there countries with even less prices?

Couldn't say. Not much of an economist

 

Comp: Just finished going through ordering hell. So. many. hickups... ugh. Thankfully, its over. Got a boatload of parts arriving on Monday, with just the RAM and wifi card lagging behind. Hopefully should be able to have the comp fully up and running by the end of next week - I can't wait!

Make sure to order some grounding strips before you touch anything. Other than that, sounds pretty awesome.

 

But, you know what, maybe she'll have better luck with the geForce cards than I did. It just happened that my luck with them was poor, and it caused me a lot of headache so I got a Quadro. Like I said, the geForce should be more than capable of generally working with the program while its a bunch of minor details that pile up that are the main problem.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Well, I think the definition of "Real Time" is being used in multiple iterations here. From the video I was watching iRay on, it was still having to do a few render passes which meant it was not true 30 frames per second real time. More like 1 frame every 30 seconds. It is still impressive, but it isn't real time just yet.

So you're saying that since iray is going at a relatively slow (to the human eye) rate, the performance of geforces vs quadros can't really be measured?

 

The 3d render view, however, is primarily using OpenGL which communicates better through a Quadro driver. The difference is, Dragon Age is using Directx while Maya is using OpenGL. I'd be willing to bet than even though iRay is a very advanced render engine, it will still primarily be using OpenGL to display.

... but going from what you know about quadros, and the likelihood of iray using openGL (which quadros handle better), you assume that quadros will probably run iray better?

 

Make sure to order some grounding strips before you touch anything. Other than that, sounds pretty awesome.

Ah yes, almost forgot. Just ordered one.

 

But, you know what, maybe she'll have better luck with the geForce cards than I did. It just happened that my luck with them was poor, and it caused me a lot of headache so I got a Quadro. Like I said, the geForce should be more than capable of generally working with the program while its a bunch of minor details that pile up that are the main problem.

What was the GeForce card that you tried?

[True_Avery]

So you're saying that since iray is going at a relatively slow (to the human eye) rate, the performance of geforces vs quadros can't really be measured?

I'm also going off their preference to using 15 Quadro GPUs to power iRay opposed to a bunch of GeForces. iRay is, from what I can see, not meant to be a real time program at all. It is a program that is designed specifically around using a GPU cloud to cut down 90% of the render time associated with high quality renders in order to have an interactive render to adjust lighting and textures.

 

Real-time is video game rendering, and specifically Directx's job. GeForce cards and aimed specifically at taking full advantage of Dx and their drivers are aimed specifically at real-time engine rendering. Quadro drivers are designed to dump all resources into 1 frame and 1 frame only at a time, which is why they will always out render a GeForce driver.

 

It isn't that iRay is going relatively slow, or not up to speed with the human eye: the point is that is not what it is trying to do. If iRay was a video game, I'd say it would indeed run faster on a GeForce driver but as it stands it is a very advanced Furry Ball or IPR render program.

 

Here is what I mean:

 

... but going from what you know about quadros, and the likelihood of iray using openGL (which quadros handle better), you assume that quadros will probably run iray better?

Essentially, yes. By leaps and bounds.

 

What was the GeForce card that you tried?

Was a 9600. My friend has it now and has since replaced it.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

I'm also going off their preference to using 15 Quadro GPUs to power iRay opposed to a bunch of GeForces. iRay is, from what I can see, not meant to be a real time program at all. It is a program that is designed specifically around using a GPU cloud to cut down 90% of the render time associated with high quality renders in order to have an interactive render to adjust lighting and textures.

 

Real-time is video game rendering, and specifically Directx's job. GeForce cards and aimed specifically at taking full advantage of Dx and their drivers are aimed specifically at real-time engine rendering. Quadro drivers are designed to dump all resources into 1 frame and 1 frame only at a time, which is why they will always out render a GeForce driver.

 

It isn't that iRay is going relatively slow, or not up to speed with the human eye: the point is that is not what it is trying to do. If iRay was a video game, I'd say it would indeed run faster on a GeForce driver but as it stands it is a very advanced Furry Ball or IPR render program.

 

Here is what I mean:

Ah, got it. For some reason i had the notion that iRay rendered at a set rate.

 

Comp: My sister's letting me use her monitor until her comp is built. I broke out my 1920 x 1080 wallpapers, and all i can say is: wow. just... wow. (my monitor is a 17 inch crt usually @ 1024 x 768 )

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Alright! Its a day past what i expected, but all the parts arrived!

The RAM (which was from another order) came a few minutes after the rest of the parts.

 

I've read through all the manuals, getting ready for the build. Everything's here waiting to be put together, except for the anti-static strap. Its excruciating!

 

In the mean time, i'm off to read/watch more build tutorials. The only things i haven't done before are installing the CPU and heatsink, mounting the mobo onto the case, and setting up the BIOS (ive done most basic stuff before, its the mobo specific features that are new for me). The thing i'm most nervous about is the CPU. Apparently, this is a very common newb thing, and is unfounded. But a little nervousness when handling $1000 worth of equipment in one step can't be unhealthy, IMO.

 

Previously, i had only messed around with Pentium 4 PCs or less. Handling these new modern parts is exhilarating.

 

Man, i am pumped.

 

*Come on, antistatic strap! get here NAO!*

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Strap came, after which ensued a couple hours of cautious building. Said a prayer, plugged it in, turned it on, and the thing starts up! I then configured the BIOS.

 

 

But all is not well.

 

When i turned it on, it of course had no OS, and prompted me to install it. I restarted it, and after running it's POST, the new rig beeped and displayed a message, somehting like CPU fan failiure or something (can't remember what it said). I restarted and hopped back into the BIOS, and had a look at the hardware info. The CPU fan's RPM was something like 480, and it was displayed in red.

I exited the BIOS and it gave me the same beeps and error message again. I checked the beep code in the mobo manual, and it apparently meant hardware failure. Now a bit more nervous, i went back into the BIOS. But this time i had a hunch: I set the Asus Q-Fan setting to "standard" (i had initially set it to silent).

Restarted, and the RPMs were something like 600, still in red. I then went back and set Q-Fan to Turbo. Restarted, and the RPMs were around 1000, and no longer in red. The error message didn't come up anymore after the POST.

 

I was still a bit tentative, but all successive restarts showed no problems. I then proceeded to install the OS and updated drivers, and everything's running smoothly.

 

I googled the problem, and apparently sometimes with big CPU fans, they spin much slower than usual fans and the BIOS sees the RPMs in the error threshold. Im not sure if this is what it was. (Fan is 120mm. Part of the Arctic Cooling Freezer Xtreme Rev. 2 heatsink)

 

 

A couple hours later, i managed to get Mass Effect working (had to install extra libs from the latest DX redist), and flipped out when i maxed the graphics. The CPU and Graphics card handled it as if it were some puny screensaver. It loaded in seconds, and had crazy frame rates. I loaded up a save, and 5 minutes later i was into combat, oogling at the prettiness (went from a bloated vista on T7250 @ 2.0ghz, 8400gs - ME @ 640 x 480, probably around 15 fps average ), when suddenly, the game froze. I sat there for a while, trying to wait it out, but it was truly frozen. Just... stopped. So i used task manager and ended the game (and found that in win7, "end now" really means "end now"! ).

 

Since it was 5:30 in the morning, i decided to call it a day... uh, night.. whatever.

 

Three hours later, i was woken by my sister trying out the game. Just as i woke up, it crashed on her. I can't remember what exactly happened, but apparently when she pressed ctrl-alt-delete, some blue screen with dos-esque lines of stuff flashed by (too fast to read) and then the computer restarted.

 

I remembered the problem i had when i first turned it on. I wondered if these two problems were related.

 

I have no idea what causes ME to crash (sometimes it freezes, sometimes it doesn't, but we haven't played it very long yet). Could it be related to the earlier problem?

 

Otherwise the compy runs absolutely fine. I installed some essential proggies, and even some bloatware, but it runs them as if they weren't even there. I don't know whether to attribute it to Win7 or the i7920... probably both. Windows 7 feels so stable. Like XP did.

 

I was surprised the DirextX 11 that came with the OS didn't have the previous versions' libraries. Some poor people may see the error and the Win7 stinks for games or something.

 

Anyway, I'm quite worried about the CPU fan thing and ME crashing. Any ideas on whats causing these problems?

[Q]

I was surprised the DirextX 11 that came with the OS didn't have the previous versions' libraries. Some poor people may see the error and the Win7 stinks for games or something.

Yeah, neither did Vista, which is one of the reasons it got so many complaints. Here is an easy solution to that problem. Download the redistributable, make a folder on your desktop (or wherever). When you run the redistributable, direct it to extract its contents to that folder, then go into the folder and run the setup program. Once it's done you can delete the folder.

Anyway, I'm quite worried about the CPU fan thing and ME crashing. Any ideas on whats causing these problems?

Well, there are several freeware utilities out there that can control fan speed. I would do a search to see which one most people are using for your particular motherboard. As far as ME crashing, it could be related to DirectX which is discussed above.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Yeah, neither did Vista, which is one of the reasons it got so many complaints. Here is an easy solution to that problem. Download the redistributable, make a folder on your desktop (or wherever). When you run the redistributable, direct it to extract its contents to that folder, then go into the folder and run the setup program. Once it's done you can delete the folder.

Yep, thats exactly what i did.

 

Well, there are several freeware utilities out there that can control fan speed. I would do a search to see which one most people are using for your particular motherboard. As far as ME crashing, it could be related to DirectX which is discussed above.

Do you know whats the usual RPM for a 120mm CPU heatsink fan? (is there even a standard?)

 

As to ME: i had already followed those instructions. (for some reason i can't go to the link in your post. i assume its the MS page for the redist?)

 

I wonder if this is common for Win7... AFAIK Astro has ME on win7.. hopefully he should stop by and give his opinion.

 

What i'm afraid of is that the maybe the fan is not cooling efficiently, and is jeopardizing the CPU. Weird stuff happens when CPUs overheats, right? It could also explain why everythings fine when using the computer normally (not gaming)...

 

Im hoping thats not it...

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Serious problems now.

 

I was starting up ME today, when all of a sudden the display stared getting all digitized/corrupted. I quickly turned the PC off and popped the cover. I immediately thought of fried CPUs and burning graphics cards.

I felt the graphics card and it was really hot, but i didn't know what to make of it since they're supposed to get hot anyway. It even has a "hot" symbol on the card itself. I didn't smell anything burning either.

 

The cpu heatsink felt fine, as if nothings wrong. I waited until everything cooled down and started it up again, but the display is immediately garbled and you can't see anything:

 

 

You can kind of make out the nvidia graphics card BIOS thing that always displayed when the computer started up in the upper left corner, but the rest is just garbled. It then doesn't appear to do anything, and shuts off immediately when the power button is pushed. (indicating that its not just the display thats messed up; it doesn't proceed to Windows where it would take a short while for it to shut down.)

 

I remember a friend had a problem like this (garbled display), but his problem was a buggy motherboard (it was an HP tablet pc, and apparently the problem was inherent). He has to squeeze underneath the tablet at a certain place while its starting up or the display will be garbled.

 

I don't know what could be causing my problem... we've played ME and other games quite a bit without any adverse problems, and the computer has been running fine. It just mucked up randomly.

 

I'm thinking i should try taking individual parts and trying them on another computer, namely the graphics card and the RAM. Would doing this void any warranties? Should i even do it?

[Astrotoy7]

Hello Jesus, happy recent bday \o/

 

Warranties ae void when you open pre-config(store bought) PCs. There is usually a warranty sticker seal that will tear if you remove the case.

 

If you have assembled one yourslef, the warranties apply to the parts themselves, so you can put/test them where you like.

 

I dont have ME2 on W7, I still havent moved to Win7 on my gaming PC as I havent felt the need to - and still am on Vista x64. Only my Tablet and HTPC are on W7.

 

As for your issues > if you have a store warranty > take it back, otherwise the differential diagnosis you have proposed is a soudn way to proceed.

 

mtfbwya

[Q]

I'm thinking i should try taking individual parts and trying them on another computer, namely the graphics card and the RAM. Would doing this void any warranties? Should i even do it?

No, it won't void any warranties, and yes, you should do exactly that with as many parts as you can. My guess is that you have a bad graphics card. It's perfectly normal for stuff like that to happen and the only thing that you can do is exchange it for another from where you purchased it, or RMA it with the manufacturer.

 

The vendor exchange would be the first thing you want to try once you determine which part is defective.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Warranties ae void when you open pre-config(store bought) PCs. There is usually a warranty sticker seal that will tear if you remove the case.

 

If you have assembled one yourslef, the warranties apply to the parts themselves, so you can put/test them where you like.

No, it won't void any warranties,

Ok. I was just wondering, since many companies will do whatever they can to weedle out of warranties. Thought that maybe theyd kick up a fuss about the parts not being installed by a "qualified technician" or something.

As for your issues > if you have a store warranty > take it back, otherwise the differential diagnosis you have proposed is a soudn way to proceed.

and yes, you should do exactly that with as many parts as you can.

Now to find someone with a mobo thats got PCIe...

 

My guess is that you have a bad graphics card.

Thats what some friends have been suggesting. But just to be sure, as you said, i should try out as many parts as i can. What others could it possibly be? (even if its a stretch).

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Alright, tried it on a friend's mobo, and its the graphics card.

 

Now we gotta go get it exchanged, which could take a while since its christmas.

 

The card was a Galaxy GTX 260+ Razor edition. Its apparently the only single-slot gtx 260. We chose this card not because of the single slot feature, but because the original card slated for the build was the old gtx 260 (before nvidia quietly upgraded the specs). and the store guy said that the galaxy one was new version. The Galaxy card was only released in October this year, so its gotta be the upgraded edition.

 

Is there any way to tell what version a gtx260 is (original or upgraded) without having to open the card up? Like, our card is called "GeForce GTX 260+ 216 processor cores edition 896mb 448bit DDR3". Is there anything in that name that indicates whether the card is the old one or the new one?

[Q]

Look for the number 216 in the name, as in "Core 216" or "216 processor cores". The newer GTX 260s have 216 shaders in the GPU while the old ones have 192.

 

Glad that you figured out what was wrong.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Look for the number 216 in the name, as in "Core 216" or "216 processor cores". The newer GTX 260s have 216 shaders in the GPU while the old ones have 192.

got it.

 

Question: are dual slot cooling solutions for graphics cards necessarily better than single slot? (like how greater fan diameters = more airflow/silence)

[Q]

Generally, yes, as they usually vent their exhaust air out the back instead of recirculating it in the case to be exhausted by the case fan. The drawback is that it blocks off the adjacent expansion slot.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Generally, yes, as they usually vent their exhaust air out the back instead of recirculating it in the case to be exhausted by the case fan. The drawback is that it blocks off the adjacent expansion slot.

 

Im thinking of replacing the dud card with this one, or this one, because theyre overclocked, and actually cheaper than the one we got.

 

Im leaning toward the Palit because its got two fans. (im thinking it'll have better cooling, and it'll be quieter. does that make sense? would it be quieter?)

 

But those two are out of stock, and we might have to go for a non-overclocked 260+ if the shipping for the preferred two will take too long.

 

Speaking of fans, the case has 3 fans, but the motherboard only has ports 2 chassis fan plugs. So i attached the front intake and the side fans to the 'CHA_FAN' ports and left the back exhaust to go perpetually. Is there any way to get all 3 fans on intelligent control? There is one unused 'PWR_FAN' port. Im pretty sure thats for the PSU, so i left it. JC: can a chassis fan be connected to the PWR_FAN port?

 

@Avery: you got the P6t deluxe v2.. How many cha_fan ports do you have on it?