Dark Side Battle Royal

[R2-X2]

They're the strongest overall, but Team 1 has overpowered abilities, despite not being all that powerful (with the exception of Nihilus.)

 

That's why I hate team 1, they're just totally overpowered sith with nearly no background story. (Kreia is a little exception, but copared to guys like Dooku, Vader, Palpatine, she has no story.)

[purifier]

I couldn't say one way or the other, teams 1 and 5 would probably be a even match against each other. I figure it would be one long drawn out battle though, no doubt.

[Gob]

I couldn't say one way or the other, teams 1 and 5 would probably be a even match against each other. I figure it would be one long drawn out battle though, no doubt.

 

Actually, if Team 1 has their powers, it would be a quick match in their favor. If not, then it would be a quick match in Team 5's favor.

[ZimmMaster]

Team 1 or 4.

[Lord of Hunger]

After reviewing evidence from TSL, I have come to the conclusion that I was originally wrong:

 

There are lines in this video that indicate the powers of the Ancient Sith lied in the act of Force Vampiricy. We know that Nihilus learned how to master his hunger and turn into a world consuming ability on Malachor V, but this points out that Force Vampiricy is an ability that the Trayus Academy was built to teach...meaning that the Ancient Sith did use it. If so, that means that Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kreesh, and Naga Sadow all possessed a somewhat lesser version of Nihilus' power.

 

This allows them to defeat Team 1 because:

 

a) Force Vampires are immune to other Force Vampires (example: Nihilus vs. Exile). This means that Nihilus' advantage over them is gone.

 

b) Sion would be drained by the Ancient Sith.

 

c) All of Kreia's knowledge is the same as Team 5, so they would likely beat her due to being 3 vs. 1 after they toast Nihilus and Sion.

 

So I now conclude that not only does Team 5 defeat Team 1, but also all the other Teams.

[Ping]

Alright, I'll agree with you there thtat the Ancient Sith probably did know a lesser version of Nihilius's power, but just because they knew it, doesn't mean that everybody used it. Kind of similar to Battle Meditation; the Jedi and Sith knew it existed, but not everybody used it.

[Trench]

^He makes a good point. If team 5 had no knowledge of Force Vampiricy, they wouldn't stand a chance.

[purifier]

Wow! Check it out, teams 2 and 5 are running neck to neck in the poll. I wonder how long that will last?

[Gob]

Wow! Check it out, teams 2 and 5 are running neck to neck in the poll. I wonder how long that will last?

 

And Team 2 would get dismantled, too. The people sure do love Revan...

[Ping]

^He makes a good point. If team 5 had no knowledge of Force Vampiricy' date=' they wouldn't stand a chance.[/quote']

 

I never said they had no knowledge, I just said that some didn't use it. If Naga Sadow used it, I'm pretty sure he'd do it over his battle meditation.

[Trench]

I never said they had no knowledge, I just said that some didn't use it. If Naga Sadow used it, I'm pretty sure he'd do it over his battle meditation.

 

I know. I was agreeing with you and adding my own point.

[Lord of Hunger]

Alright, I'll agree with you there thtat the Ancient Sith probably did know a lesser version of Nihilius's power, but just because they knew it, doesn't mean that everybody used it. Kind of similar to Battle Meditation; the Jedi and Sith knew it existed, but not everybody used it.

Except consider the sort of military that the Sith wield. The entire Sith species was Force Sensitive. Individuals like Naga Sadow would have been passively drawing power from their own armies! Hell, Lucas himself described the nature of the "dark side" as leech like. It is only logical that the Ancient Sith were all Force Vampires who commanded vast legions of their kind into battle, only to draw any excess energy and use it for abilities like Battle Meditation (we know that Naga Sadow was used that ability, but the possibility that it would be fueled by the excess energy of his own soldiers would explain a lot).

[Ping]

Except consider the sort of military that the Sith wield. The entire Sith species was Force Sensitive. Individuals like Naga Sadow would have been passively drawing power from their own armies! Hell, Lucas himself described the nature of the "dark side" as leech like. It is only logical that the Ancient Sith were all Force Vampires who commanded vast legions of their kind into battle, only to draw any excess energy and use it for abilities like Battle Meditation (we know that Naga Sadow was used that ability, but the possibility that it would be fueled by the excess energy of his own soldiers would explain a lot).

 

Possibility, not fact. And besides, if Sadow was leeching the power off his minions, or every great True Sith could be a force vampire, I'm sure they'd be a pushover to the Republic, and most of the True Sith would've been immortal.

[Lord of Hunger]

1) The Ancient Sith did indeed have great lifespans, but having more Force energy does not result in immortality. Nihilus was slowly being consumed by his own power: he had to store his consciousness in his armor, and when the Exile broke it during the Battle of Telos what was left of his soul passed on. The Ancient Sith probably did not use Force Vampiricy enough to result in that sort of self-destruction but they had no means of immortality.

 

2) As the Ancient/True Sith had powers that made the Modern/False Sith look like pansies, so the Ancient Jedi probably had as well. In fact, note how Soreshu (a form that reflects or deflects aggressive moves) is considered to be the embodiment of the Jedi philosophy in lightsaber combat form. I believe that the Ancient Jedi had techniques of reflection, deflection, and immunity and a degree of mastery that made them equals to the Ancient Sith. I also believe that those techniques and that degree of mastery was lost just as the abilities of the Ancient Sith were lost.

 

How did this happen? Well for one, there is evidence of a distinct decline in the philosophical and moral state of the Jedi Order, especially by the time of KOTOR and TSL where the Jedi Council's belief in its own superiority and unwillingness to take action resulted in the Jedi Civil War. It is important to note that as you go along the timeline the Jedi become increasingly like the Sith in that their focus is to destroy the other in order to install their ideology as the reigning one. Atris, Vrook, the Jedi Covenant, and Mace Windu are examples of the fact that the Jedi over time became the entity they opposed minus the name, appearance, and superior power that Modern Sith have over Modern Jedi. The New Jedi Order was a partial step back to the ways of the Ancient/True Jedi, but by the time of Cade Skywalker they had reverted to the modern ways.

 

3) In addition to the actions of brilliant strategists in that time such as Empress Teta, the Ancient Sith fell victim to their own in-fighting such as Gav vs. Naga Sadow and Naga Sadow vs. Ludo Kreesh. The fact that Gav transmitted the Hyperspace Coordinates of the Ancient Sith Empire allowed the Republic to launch a counterstrike just as the Ancient Sith were destroying each other. The result was the near-annihilation of one of the greatest Empires the Galaxy had ever seen.

[Ping]

The Ancient Sith did indeed have great lifespans, but having more Force energy does not result in immortality. Nihilus was slowly being consumed by his own power: he had to store his consciousness in his armor, and when the Exile broke it during the Battle of Telos what was left of his soul passed on. The Ancient Sith probably did not use Force Vampiricy enough to result in that sort of self-destruction but they had no means of immortality.

Not quite what I said about immortality. What I was trying to say was if the True Sith could drain life from others, then they'd do so to be immortal.

[TKA-001]

Three possible outcomes. Which one occurs depends on which one can happen first.

 

1. Darth Nihilus' drain ability kills everyone present (including his teammates) except for the Exile, on whom he drains his strength. Weakened, Nihilus is finished off by the Exile, who is the only survivor.

 

2. The Exile's drain ability kills everyone present (including his or her teammates) except for Darth Nihilus, on whom he or she drains his or her strength. Weakened, the Exile is finished off by Nihilus, who is the only survivor.

 

3. Palpatine conjures a kamikaze Force storm which obliterates the entire area, killing all contestants including himself. He then returns by reincarnating himself in one of his clones on Byss. Though his team won, there is no high-fiving because his teammates are dead, and Palpatine will have to start over on his search for an ideal apprentice. In short, a day in the life of the Galactic Emperor wasted by a hypothetical situation.

[Lord of Hunger]

Three possible outcomes. Which one occurs depends on which one can happen first.

 

1. Darth Nihilus' drain ability kills everyone present (including his teammates) except for the Exile, on whom he drains his strength. Weakened, Nihilus is finished off by the Exile, who is the only survivor.

Likely, except Team Five is made of True Sith and as I pointed out they are Force Vampires as well. That makes them immune to Nihilus.

2. The Exile's drain ability kills everyone present (including his or her teammates) except for Darth Nihilus, on whom he or she drains his or her strength. Weakened, the Exile is finished off by Nihilus, who is the only survivor.

Except the Exile's Force Vampiricy is not the same as Nihilus'. As a light sider, the Exile uses Passive Force Vampiricy, which draws upon excess radiating energy or draws upon the bonds of others. As a dark sider, the Exile uses a significantly weaker version of Aggressive Force Vampiricy that is nowhere near as strong as Nihilus. As far as we have seen, the Exile's opponents have to already be dying to be susceptible to his/er power.

3. Palpatine conjures a kamikaze Force storm which obliterates the entire area, killing all contestants including himself.

As brilliant and almighty as Palpatine is made out to be, again he is not that powerful. Yes, he may have learned Ancient Sith techniques from the Telos Holocron even, but that does not make him a master. Any of the True/Ancient Sith are more than his match (and wield Force Vampiricy). His Dun Moch will be no match against masters of perception like Darth Traya and strategy like Revan. Darth Sion will keep coming back over and over again because he has no reason to surrender. Unidentified Sith from the TOR trailer, Darth Malak, and Darth Maul will be tough fights. Darth Bane will be a nightmare for Palpy since much of Palpy's knowledge is a result of the teachings of Bane...who is likely his equal. Exile...depends on a variety of factors. And Nihilus can easily suck away Palpatine's power as he is charging up his Super Saiyan Force Storm.

He then returns by reincarnating himself in one of his clones on Byss. Though his team won, there is no high-fiving because his teammates are dead, and Palpatine will have to start over on his search for an ideal apprentice. In short, a day in the life of the Galactic Emperor wasted by a hypothetical situation.

Except that if he attempts to even flee his soul will be even more vulnerable to assault by Nihilus, Exile, and the Ancient Sith. No amount of techniques would defend him because not only would his guard be down, but non-existent.

 

Just because he took over the Galaxy does not make him the Greatest Sith ever. From what we know about the Ancient Sith Empire, the True Sith were worshiped as unstoppable Gods and were stopped only due to a great deal of infighting, Empress Teta's brilliant strategies, the power of the Ancient/True Jedi, and also a bit of luck (yes, there is such a thing no matter what Kenobi says). Palpatine won because he was able to kill off one of the Jedi Order's few decently powerful Jedi Masters and convinced a whinny angst-ridden brat to go wacko on everyone he cared about.

 

And remember that no amount of persuasion guarantees such absolute obedience that he wielded. The Core Worlds already wanted the Galactic Empire even before the Clone Wars, because in the hearts of the people the ideals of democracy were dead. Palpatine merely gave them an excuse to make their wish a reality. Hell the Separatists under Dooku wanted to make a New Order of their own.

 

Preying on the mental weaknesses of others is only so admirable. If the Rebel Alliance had never happened, how long do you think that Palpatine's empire would have lasted? We know for a fact that power was even more decentralized than in the Galactic Republic. This is a recipe for warlords and feudalism that was inevitable. The Rebel Alliance merely set it off prematurely when they killed off Palpatine and Vader. Give a couple decades and the tension between the Moffs would have been so high that it would result in an all-out war that Palpy would have not been able to stop or escape. You'd have Moffs building Death Stars right and left, and someone would get the idea of using one on Coruscant in a surprise attack.

 

And how long would have Vader remained loyal? I doubt the guy planned to kneel before Palpy forever...he would been raising an army of secret apprentices to take the Emperor down and put himself at the top with an Order similar to the One Sith.

 

And I could go on and on at this. It is so easy to tear Palpatine apart because he frankly just got lucky at a few things. Yes, he could see far into the future and predict a lot of stuff. Did he predict Luke? Leia? Kenobi surviving? Galen nearly defeating him? Vader backstabbing him? A new generation rising up to claim the future? He saw only what he wanted to see, and that was his ultimate weakness.

[Ping]

@Lord of Hunger: That's only a theory that the True Sith were Vampires. You don't know that for sure. And honestly, Force Vampiricy does not equal "unstoppable, most powerful, Jedi/Sith evar!". Yes, Palpatine would have a hard time attacking the True Sith, but almost all the True Sith up there had swords instead of combat lightsabers.

[TKA-001]

Likely, except Team Five is made of True Sith and as I pointed out they are Force Vampires as well. That makes them immune to Nihilus.

The term "True Sith" doesn't make any difference comparing individual peoples' abilities. More to the point, there is no evidence in the canon that any of the Sith Lords mentioned are "Force Vampires".

 

Except the Exile's Force Vampiricy is not the same as Nihilus'. As a light sider, the Exile uses Passive Force Vampiricy, which draws upon excess radiating energy or draws upon the bonds of others.

We aren't talking about a light-sider Exile here.

 

As a dark sider, the Exile uses a significantly weaker version of Aggressive Force Vampiricy that is nowhere near as strong as Nihilus. As far as we have seen, the Exile's opponents have to already be dying to be susceptible to his/er power.

That was only the way it was when dark-side Exile fights the Jedi Masters because she/he has only been dark for a short time. Nihilus' planet-killing abilities didn't spring up overnight. Why should it be any different here?

 

As brilliant and almighty as Palpatine is made out to be, again he is not that powerful. Yes, he may have learned Ancient Sith techniques from the Telos Holocron even, but that does not make him a master. Any of the True/Ancient Sith are more than his match (and wield Force Vampiricy).

First of all, the "True" Sith are not Force "vampires" (I don't know why you don't just call them wounds in the Force). That aside, let's look at the known talents and abilities of each Sith on team 5.

 

Naga Sadow: Dark Lord of the Sith, naturally significantly more powerful than standard Sith Lords and the like; Highly skilled at creation of Force-based illusions; Possible ability to manipulate stars (unknown if this was his own power or gained from a Sith artifact which he had with him when he demonstrated this power)

 

Ludo Kressh: Wookieepedia doesn't even have a section on his powers and abilities, but he presumably at least has standard "Dark Lord of the Sith" power.

 

Marka Ragnos: Never actually shown in a story in which he was alive. Said by Kreia in KotOR II to have standard "Dark Lord of the Sith"-level power, but the fact that he was beaten single-handedly by Jaden Korr, a Jedi who had been a Knight for less than a year, does not make him sound like an ultra-Jedi-killing badass to me.

 

Have any of these Sith killed three Jedi Masters in less than ten seconds? No. The above Sith haven't really been known for much except killing each other in their civil wars.

 

His Dun Moch will be no match against masters of perception like Darth Traya and strategy like Revan.

First of all, you're assuming that Palpatine relies on use of Dun Moch (which is something that no Sith does). I'm also waiting on the mountain of examples you think you have which proves that Traya is a greater master of perception than Palpatine (who spent decades building a power base inside the Republic), or that Revan is a greater master of strategy than Palpatine (even if Revan is, militarily, that doesn't have anything to do with this scenario).

 

Darth Sion will keep coming back over and over again because he has no reason to surrender.

...so what happens if Sion gets his head cut off in the melee? Does the lightsaber just fail to cut through his skin? Does he immediately grow new flesh and bone that instantly fuses his head back onto his neck? What if he's cut in half? Does he immediately grow a new lower half?

 

Sion is not invincible. His power is to stay alive despite the injuries he's already sustained since before TSL. It isn't a god mode cheat.

 

Unidentified Sith from the TOR trailer

The Sith from the TOR trailer has done nothing that Darth Vader's apprentice hasn't surpassed. There is no reason to believe he's even close to the power level of the other Sith Lords in this scenario.

 

Darth Bane will be a nightmare for Palpy since much of Palpy's knowledge is a result of the teachings of Bane...who is likely his equal.

What is it with your obsession about earlier Sith being superior to later Sith just because of some handwaving about the "True" Sith inventing some teachings that their successors might have used? The only teaching Bane invented that was sort of used by Palpatine was the Rule of Two. What does that have to do with their abilities in combat? Yes, Bane was quite a beast as seen in his as-of-yet-incomplete trilogy, but while undeniably powerful, nothing he's done has surpassed the scope of things accomplished by other Sith Lords.

 

And Nihilus can easily suck away Palpatine's power as he is charging up his Super Saiyan Force Storm.

You wish. Nihilus is far more vulnerable than you like to think. Let's use the confrontation on the Ravager as an example. The Exile and her/his companions walked onto the bridge. Nihilus spent at least a minute and a half arguing with them in his untranslated language, and then tried to drain the Exile.

 

Nihilus' perceptions of the world around him are severely impaired by the state his hunger has reduced him to. The Exile and her/his friends could have simply shot him in the back. Why would Nihilus be able to feed faster than Palpatine could conjure a Force Storm? I don't recall Dark Empire mentioning that Force Storms require much preparation time, though I might be mistaken.

 

Except that if he attempts to even flee his soul will be even more vulnerable to assault by Nihilus, Exile, and the Ancient Sith. No amount of techniques would defend him because not only would his guard be down, but non-existent.

Did you forget the previous part of my post? If Palpatine kills himself with the Force Storm, then so will everyone else in the area be killed. You also have no evidence to suggest that Palpatine's spirit would be so much more vulnerable than before (Ajunta Pall's ghost was very capable of fighting and killing Revan).

 

Just because he took over the Galaxy does not make him the Greatest Sith ever.

Correct. What makes him that is the fact that his powers match or surpass virtually any other Sith, and his accomplishments far outweigh those of any other Sith by a ridiculously large degree.

 

From what we know about the Ancient Sith Empire, the True Sith were worshiped as unstoppable Gods and were stopped only due to a great deal of infighting, Empress Teta's brilliant strategies, the power of the Ancient/True Jedi, and also a bit of luck (yes, there is such a thing no matter what Kenobi says).

The "True Sith" were not worshipped as gods. You're thinking of the Dark Jedi Exiles, who were treated as gods by the primitive Sith inhabitants when they arrived at Korriban. And so what? Why is that so much greater than anything other Sith have done?

 

Palpatine won because he was able to kill off one of the Jedi Order's few decently powerful Jedi Masters and convinced a whinny angst-ridden brat to go wacko on everyone he cared about.

First you downplay the strength of the four Jedi who confronted Palpatine (which there is no evidence for), then you pretend that Palpatine somehow needed Anakin on his side to win, which is bogus. Mace Windu did fairly disarm Palpatine, but he was by no means unable to escape for continue to fight for himself. Palpatine did not need Anakin to dissolve the Republic and turn it into the Empire, nor did he need Anakin in order to destroy the Jedi Order (his clone army did that just fine, and Operation Knightfall would have been just as successful without Vader as with him). Getting Anakin as an apprentice was simply a bonus. Anakin was hardly the only Force user in the galaxy who would do just fine as an apprentice.

 

And remember that no amount of persuasion guarantees such absolute obedience that he wielded. The Core Worlds already wanted the Galactic Empire even before the Clone Wars, because in the hearts of the people the ideals of democracy were dead. Palpatine merely gave them an excuse to make their wish a reality. Hell the Separatists under Dooku wanted to make a New Order of their own.

So what? Of course Palpatine didn't make everyone's ambitions spring up out of nowhere; He simply used them, and that was just as good. His powers of persuading the public were only of use in regards to the Republic, when in the guise of the Supreme Chancellor. For the rest of the galaxy and also in the Republic, he manipulated everyone's desires to set his own plans in motion. As for the Confederacy, their government would never have been formed if Palpatine hadn't had Dooku unite them.

 

Preying on the mental weaknesses of others is only so admirable. If the Rebel Alliance had never happened, how long do you think that Palpatine's empire would have lasted?

Likely indefinitely.

 

We know for a fact that power was even more decentralized than in the Galactic Republic.

That's a load of bull****. Power in the Empire was centralized around the Emperor and his direct subjects.

 

This is a recipe for warlords and feudalism that was inevitable.

Even though the Empire was not as decentralized as the Republic as you claim, it is true that civil wars and coups were inevitable. In fact, several coups and civil wars did occur in the Empire (two were the Anti-Sith Conspiracy engineered by Moff Trachta and the civil war caused by Grand Admiral Zaarin), Palpatine dealt with all of them just fine.

 

Give a couple decades and the tension between the Moffs would have been so high that it would result in an all-out war that Palpy would have not been able to stop or escape. You'd have Moffs building Death Stars right and left, and someone would get the idea of using one on Coruscant in a surprise attack.

This idea is so less than half-baked that you'd never guess it was ever placed in an oven in the first place. If these problems were such a huge deal, then why did none of them actually happen? First of all, you forget the fact that Palpatine was extremely popular with the Empire's leadership. They all either viewed him as the noble leader whose leadership allowed them to survive the "rebellion" led by the "corrupt, evil Jedi", or as a sick old man whom they could exploit - and the latter crowd didn't want Palpatine dead. Rather, the ones who thought they could exploit the Emperor viewed him as a blind, isolated figurehead whom they could use to build a powerbase for themselves and live it up, when in reality Palpatine was secretly very involved with the Empire and used their belief of him being a chump to increase their power, as long as they did what he wanted them to. Also, all of the Empire's atrocities were blamed on those subordinate to him, like Vader. The Emperor had very little blood on his own hands, which is why the public didn't want him gone.

 

Second, no, you would not have anyone building multiple Death Stars. There's no way Palpatine would allow people to build private Death Stars, and no Moff or Grand Moff in the Empire had that many resources at their disposal anyhow. Palpatine did suffer from civil war and surprise coups by his subjects in the Empire, and none of them worked.

 

And how long would have Vader remained loyal? I doubt the guy planned to kneel before Palpy forever...he would been raising an army of secret apprentices to take the Emperor down and put himself at the top with an Order similar to the One Sith.

Another one-thirtieth-baked idea. Vader would remain loyal to Palpatine as long as he had no apprentice to kill him with. Vader would likely never be able to take Palpy in a fight on his own.

 

As for the army of secret apprentices things... For ****'s sake, do I seriously need to explain what is wrong with this idea? There's no way Vader could train an army of Force users period, due simply to the time that would take, let alone without Palpatine's knowledge. Besides, if Vader has more than one apprentice, what's to stop one or more of the apprentices from betraying him?

 

Galen nearly defeating him?

Galen did not nearly defeat Palpatine. He Force-pushed him a couple of times before getting curb-stomped. That's it.

 

And I could go on and on at this. It is so easy to tear Palpatine apart because he frankly just got lucky at a few things. Yes, he could see far into the future and predict a lot of stuff. Did he predict Luke? Leia? Kenobi surviving? Galen nearly defeating him? Vader backstabbing him? A new generation rising up to claim the future? He saw only what he wanted to see, and that was his ultimate weakness.

And the fact that he wasn't completely invincible makes him inferior to your fanon elevated "True" Sith how, exactly? They all got defeated and killed, too. Moreover, what does any of this have to do with the scenario described in this thread's original post?

[Lord of Hunger]

The term "True Sith" doesn't make any difference comparing individual peoples' abilities. More to the point, there is no evidence in the canon that any of the Sith Lords mentioned are "Force Vampires".

Except the source I have cited, and even the all important arguments of George Lucas that the nature of the Dark Side is parasitism. It only makes sense that one of the greatest dark side Empires practiced that belief.

We aren't talking about a light-sider Exile here.

Okay.

That was only the way it was when dark-side Exile fights the Jedi Masters because she/he has only been dark for a short time. Nihilus' planet-killing abilities didn't spring up overnight. Why should it be any different here?

For starters, Nihilus trained under Darth Traya and the teachings of Malachor to get his technique even close to where it was. It is likely that in order study such techniques of Malachor, one has to have a teacher who can accurately translate Ancient Sith. Since DS Exile is on a different Team, he/she has no such teacher or access to Malachor and as such his/her vampiricy goes only as far as instinct.

First of all, the "True" Sith are not Force "vampires" (I don't know why you don't just call them wounds in the Force). That aside, let's look at the known talents and abilities of each Sith on team 5.

Again, see my evidence.

Naga Sadow: Dark Lord of the Sith, naturally significantly more powerful than standard Sith Lords and the like; Highly skilled at creation of Force-based illusions; Possible ability to manipulate stars (unknown if this was his own power or gained from a Sith artifact which he had with him when he demonstrated this power)

Not to mention Battle Meditation.

Ludo Kressh: Wookieepedia doesn't even have a section on his powers and abilities, but he presumably at least has standard "Dark Lord of the Sith" power.

 

Marka Ragnos: Never actually shown in a story in which he was alive. Said by Kreia in KotOR II to have standard "Dark Lord of the Sith"-level power, but the fact that he was beaten single-handedly by Jaden Korr, a Jedi who had been a Knight for less than a year, does not make him sound like an ultra-Jedi-killing badass to me.

Kreia said that he was strong immensely physically and in the Force. He was also both highly feared and respected by all the other Sith Lords. Remember how he was Dark Lord over the Golden Age of the Sith? A Dark Lord who can keep a whole Council of Lords obedient even when there is no enemy to fight has to be extremely powerful as the nature of the Sith dictates that they fight each other when there is no one else to fight. As for Jaden Korr, it is likely that since he was possess a body with far less potential than he actually has and was unfamiliar to him resulted in this defeat. In fact, Tavion had already been worn out from the duel.

Have any of these Sith killed three Jedi Masters in less than ten seconds? No. The above Sith haven't really been known for much except killing each other in their civil wars.

Uh....

If you were to face an Ancient Sith Lord in combat you would find that we are as but children playing with toys.

And don't give me the whole "KREIA ALWAYS LIES!!!!1!" deal again...why would she lie about this. In fact, it is apparent that the Jedi Order over time declined from what it was during the Great Hyperspace War as the Jedi Masters became increasingly arrogant and the Jedi in general became more dependent on the Force instead of real-life skills, thus actually decreasing their Force potential. Meanwhile the Ancient Sith both had armies of Force Sensitive Massassi Warriors and Kissai priests to serve them. They created Sith Sorcery! Sith Amulets that made even non-Force Sensitives Force Sensitives! They also wielded technologies and teachings from the remains of the Infinite Empire. The fact that they were stopped is a miracle.

First of all, you're assuming that Palpatine relies on use of Dun Moch (which is something that no Sith does). I'm also waiting on the mountain of examples you think you have which proves that Traya is a greater master of perception than Palpatine (who spent decades building a power base inside the Republic), or that Revan is a greater master of strategy than Palpatine (even if Revan is, militarily, that doesn't have anything to do with this scenario).

Palpatine was a master of Dun Moch and used it heavily during his duel with Yoda.

 

Traya had studied and mastered perception control at Malachor, it is her core ability. She could not only hide her aura, but her presence too. And she could remotely control memories, send telepathic messages across the Galaxy. Do Palpatine's abilities reach that far?

...so what happens if Sion gets his head cut off in the melee? Does the lightsaber just fail to cut through his skin? Does he immediately grow new flesh and bone that instantly fuses his head back onto his neck? What if he's cut in half? Does he immediately grow a new lower half?

More like he reattaches those body parts and then uses Force Crush on whoever did it.

Sion is not invincible. His power is to stay alive despite the injuries he's already sustained since before TSL. It isn't a god mode cheat.

Actually he was practically as close to invincible as you can get: the only way you can kill him in combat is if he is willing to die. A lot had happened in TSL to make him doubt himself and Darth Traya, and then you had the Exile whom if Female he secretly love and if Male he was jealous of. Palpatine has no such advantage.

The Sith from the TOR trailer has done nothing that Darth Vader's apprentice hasn't surpassed. There is no reason to believe he's even close to the power level of the other Sith Lords in this scenario.

Because Starkiller is uber 1337? Starkiller has a lot of potential but like Darth Vader before A New Hope it was not refined.

What is it with your obsession about earlier Sith being superior to later Sith just because of some handwaving about the "True" Sith inventing some teachings that their successors might have used? The only teaching Bane invented that was sort of used by Palpatine was the Rule of Two. What does that have to do with their abilities in combat? Yes, Bane was quite a beast as seen in his as-of-yet-incomplete trilogy, but while undeniably powerful, nothing he's done has surpassed the scope of things accomplished by other Sith Lords.

Because Bane was the very founder of Palpy's Order. Palpy's techniques were acquired either through Holocrons or the teachings of Darth Bane that were passed on and refined over time.

You wish. Nihilus is far more vulnerable than you like to think. Let's use the confrontation on the Ravager as an example. The Exile and her/his companions walked onto the bridge. Nihilus spent at least a minute and a half arguing with them in his untranslated language, and then tried to drain the Exile.

Considering you had a Force Blackhole (Exile), some mortal (Mandalore), and his former apprentice (Visas), he had no reason to consume them immediately. If Palpatine was there instead, Nihilus' reaction would have been "FOODFOODFOODFOOD!!! OM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM!!!"

 

Okay, I admit that was a bit silly but I think you get my point.

Nihilus' perceptions of the world around him are severely impaired by the state his hunger has reduced him to. The Exile and her/his friends could have simply shot him in the back.

Shooting him in the back would have done nothing. There was no flesh: he was a spirit, some robes, and armor. They would have singed his robe and right after would have been attacked.

Why would Nihilus be able to feed faster than Palpatine could conjure a Force Storm? I don't recall Dark Empire mentioning that Force Storms require much preparation time, though I might be mistaken.

You don't just use an ability of that power requirement on that magnitude in an instant. And as pointed out in Dark Empire Palpatine had little to no control.

Did you forget the previous part of my post? If Palpatine kills himself with the Force Storm, then so will everyone else in the area be killed.

Except in Dark Empire Luke and Leia escaped?

You also have no evidence to suggest that Palpatine's spirit would be so much more vulnerable than before (Ajunta Pall's ghost was very capable of fighting and killing Revan).

If he's fleeing his guard is down, and if there is no shielding of a body his spirit is more vulnerable to Force assault.

Correct. What makes him that is the fact that his powers match or surpass virtually any other Sith, and his accomplishments far outweigh those of any other Sith by a ridiculously large degree.

What are these accomplishments you keep talking about? The Jedi Order at that time was PATHETIC, just as blinded by their own hubris as Palpy was at the Battle of Endor and several other instances! The Republic was already on its way to becoming like the Empire. He was defeated by his half dead apprentice throwing him into a reactor core, then again by two junior Jedi Knights. All the damage that was ever dealt to the Alliance was through Imperial Forces, not by him.

The "True Sith" were not worshipped as gods. You're thinking of the Dark Jedi Exiles, who were treated as gods by the primitive Sith inhabitants when they arrived at Korriban. And so what? Why is that so much greater than anything other Sith have done?

A Sith Empire that at least at one point was completely solidified, unified, and possessed a massive section of the Galaxy under its fist? Nearly defeating the Republic and returning to finish the job again? Possessing some of the most powerful Sith techniques available?

First you downplay the strength of the four Jedi who confronted Palpatine (which there is no evidence for),

Their defeat was a JOKE.

then you pretend that Palpatine somehow needed Anakin on his side to win, which is bogus.

So you think that the clones would have won the Battle of the Jedi Temple that quickly and easily without Anakin, or at all? Anakin managed to take down their greatest lightsaber duelist, who would have managed to rally a significant defense. Many of the successes against the Rebel Alliance were due to Darth Vader.

Mace Windu did fairly disarm Palpatine, but he was by no means unable to escape for continue to fight for himself. Palpatine did not need Anakin to dissolve the Republic and turn it into the Empire, nor did he need Anakin in order to destroy the Jedi Order (his clone army did that just fine, and Operation Knightfall would have been just as successful without Vader as with him). Getting Anakin as an apprentice was simply a bonus. Anakin was hardly the only Force user in the galaxy who would do just fine as an apprentice.

Then why didn't he just stick with Dooku, a far more refined individual?

So what? Of course Palpatine didn't make everyone's ambitions spring up out of nowhere; He simply used them, and that was just as good. His powers of persuading the public were only of use in regards to the Republic, when in the guise of the Supreme Chancellor. For the rest of the galaxy and also in the Republic, he manipulated everyone's desires to set his own plans in motion. As for the Confederacy, their government would never have been formed if Palpatine hadn't had Dooku unite them.

So your saying Palpatine is great for speeding up a conflict that was inevitable and then creating an Empire that the Core Worlds already wanted? Revan converted a host of Jedi and Republic officers and soldiers to defy their core LOYALTIES and serve him. That take genius.

Likely indefinitely.

Tell that to the Infinite Empire.

That's a load of bull****. Power in the Empire was centralized around the Emperor and his direct subjects.

Sigh....

The Galactic Empire was actually more decentralized than the Galactic Republic. Systems were grouped in sectors and sectors in turn into oversectors. These were controlled by the Moffs and Grand Moffs, who exercised power in the disparate regions of the galaxy. This was in contrast to the structure of the Galactic Republic, which placed senators in control of their respective sectors.

And....

The Imperial Ruling Council was the name given to the group of Imperial Advisors who constituted the most powerful collective body in the galaxy during the New Order. While Palpatine was Emperor, it was the Council that managed the Empire and carried out his will. After his death, it became the effective central government of the Empire.

Sounds like not only was Palpatine a somewhat powerless figurehead, but his empire was set to divide into a bunch of feudal states at any given time.

Even though the Empire was not as decentralized as the Republic as you claim, it is true that civil wars and coups were inevitable. In fact, several coups and civil wars did occur in the Empire (two were the Anti-Sith Conspiracy engineered by Moff Trachta and the civil war caused by Grand Admiral Zaarin), Palpatine dealt with all of them just fine.

That was likely just the beginning of what was about to happen as soon as a Death Star arms races would have erupted.

This idea is so less than half-baked that you'd never guess it was ever placed in an oven in the first place.

Yeah, that is so whity. If you are trying to make me feel like somehow my arguments are poorly constructed and you are an expert on this field, you are not succeeding.

If these problems were such a huge deal, then why did none of them actually happen? First of all, you forget the fact that Palpatine was extremely popular with the Empire's leadership. They all either viewed him as the noble leader whose leadership allowed them to survive the "rebellion" led by the "corrupt, evil Jedi", or as a sick old man whom they could exploit - and the latter crowd didn't want Palpatine dead. Rather, the ones who thought they could exploit the Emperor viewed him as a blind, isolated figurehead whom they could use to build a powerbase for themselves and live it up, when in reality Palpatine was secretly very involved with the Empire and used their belief of him being a chump to increase their power, as long as they did what he wanted them to. Also, all of the Empire's atrocities were blamed on those subordinate to him, like Vader. The Emperor had very little blood on his own hands, which is why the public didn't want him gone.

Have you read 1984 by chance? Using the right technology, any faction could pretend that Palpatine is on their side to the point where Palpatine doesn't have to even be alive any more. The fact that his actual death could be proven made such an act impossible, but if he had never died at Endor they could have quietly assassinated him, and then pretended for a while that he was alive with good tech.

Second, no, you would not have anyone building multiple Death Stars. There's no way Palpatine would allow people to build private Death Stars, and no Moff or Grand Moff in the Empire had that many resources at their disposal anyhow.

They were already researching even more powerful weapons. I sincerely doubt that the Death Star I was the only one that they would have built. To quote one man: "The Emperor had little of anything built only once."

Palpatine did suffer from civil war and surprise coups by his subjects in the Empire, and none of them worked.

YET. What happens when the equally overhyped Thrawn combines Imperial Forces with the tech and resources of the Chiss Ascendancy? How long does Palpatine last against a strategist like that with such an army?

Another one-thirtieth-baked idea.

Vader would remain loyal to Palpatine as long as he had no apprentice to kill him with. Vader would likely never be able to take Palpy in a fight on his own.

 

As for the army of secret apprentices things... For ****'s sake, do I seriously need to explain what is wrong with this idea? There's no way Vader could train an army of Force users period, due simply to the time that would take, let alone without Palpatine's knowledge. Besides, if Vader has more than one apprentice, what's to stop one or more of the apprentices from betraying him?

It would take awhile but it is perfectly possible. As for betrayal, even your average Sith doesn't betray his/her teammate before achieving their goal. In fact, if Vader runs a secret One Sith-style order, betrayal is even more unlikely.

 

And Vader, if he's gone completely over, will likely turn on Palpatine out of his own ambition and after recognizing that Palpatine's actions (immortality and the like) would result in the stagnation of the Sith Order as a whole.

Galen did not nearly defeat Palpatine. He Force-pushed him a couple of times before getting curb-stomped. That's it.

He was able to deflect his lightning in the same way as Yoda...I'd say that's pretty dang good.

And the fact that he wasn't completely invincible makes him inferior to your fanon elevated "True" Sith how, exactly? They all got defeated and killed, too. Moreover, what does any of this have to do with the scenario described in this thread's original post?

It is important to the debate because they are all individuals central to the debate. If you're gonna figure out which group defeats which, you gotta make an accurate assessment of each one. So far I'd say the assessment of Palpy has as usual been very off.

[Giant Graffiti]

There was no flesh: he was a spirit, some robes, and armor.

 

Don't forget his dreadlocks and prosthetic nose!

[Lord of Hunger]

Living flesh, mind you. The dreadlocks and face were of a corpse. Nihilus' spirit lived in the armor.

[Gurges-Ahter]

This might be a stupid question, but something I've thought about before. If Nihilus was all spirit, how come you can see eyes and flesh behind the mask in some pictures?

 

Example: The same pic used for your avatar, Lord of Hunger.

Link

[Lord of Hunger]

As I said, he has some flesh but it's dead...animated by the Force. His spirit is in the armor around the flesh, which in turn is surrounded by the robes and mask. As Kreia said, he has forgotten his flesh, which means that he no longer inhabits it. You can kill him if you completely smash and slice up the armor enough that it can no longer hold the spirit, which is now primal intent and drive alone.

[Ping]

Except the source I have cited, and even the all important arguments of George Lucas that the nature of the Dark Side is parasitism. It only makes sense that one of the greatest dark side Empires practiced that belief.

Just because it's nature is paratisitism, doesn't mean it actually makes others parasites.

 

For starters, Nihilus trained under Darth Traya and the teachings of Malachor to get his technique even close to where it was. It is likely that in order study such techniques of Malachor, one has to have a teacher who can accurately translate Ancient Sith. Since DS Exile is on a different Team, he/she has no such teacher or access to Malachor and as such his/her vampiricy goes only as far as instinct.

The Exile was just a Force wound. The only thing that made her different from Nihilius is that she didn't use her powers to it's full potential. And the Exile is canonically feamle, don't why you used "he/she".

 

Again, see my evidence.

What evidence? The only way a thing could be a Force vampire is if they were a wound in the Force, and if the True Sith were all Force wounds, we wouldn't have a Force.

 

Kreia said that he was strong immensely physically and in the Force. He was also both highly feared and respected by all the other Sith Lords. Remember how he was Dark Lord over the Golden Age of the Sith? A Dark Lord who can keep a whole Council of Lords obedient even when there is no enemy to fight has to be extremely powerful as the nature of the Sith dictates that they fight each other when there is no one else to fight. As for Jaden Korr, it is likely that since he was possess a body with far less potential than he actually has and was unfamiliar to him resulted in this defeat. In fact, Tavion had already been worn out from the duel.

Ragnos had to beat Simus before he could be the Dark Lord. He was respected, but that tells me he wasn't feared by everyone. As for the duel with Tavion, while the body wasn't his, he was using a lightsaber (which the True Sith only used for ceremonial purposes, and it was a modern saber, too), and a Sith sword imbued with dark side energy, plus he had all the Force powers Tavion had. It's a wonder Jaden could beat him.

 

And don't give me the whole "KREIA ALWAYS LIES!!!!1!" deal again...why would she lie about this.

Why would she lie about this?

 

In fact, it is apparent that the Jedi Order over time declined from what it was during the Great Hyperspace War as the Jedi Masters became increasingly arrogant and the Jedi in general became more dependent on the Force instead of real-life skills, thus actually decreasing their Force potential. Meanwhile the Ancient Sith both had armies of Force Sensitive Massassi Warriors and Kissai priests to serve them. They created Sith Sorcery! Sith Amulets that made even non-Force Sensitives Force Sensitives! They also wielded technologies and teachings from the remains of the Infinite Empire. The fact that they were stopped is a miracle.

Where the hell did that come from? Exar Kun was arrogant and wanted to learn more, and the combination of that led him to Dxun, which caused Freedon Nadd to seduce him to the Dark Side. I don't see how Exar's fault causes it to be the Jedi's fault as a whole. In a way, you could say Nadd started the Great Sith War. Also, Ulic Qel-Droma infiltrated the Krath with the best of intentions, yet he underestimated them and fell to the Dark Side, as they exploited his feelings of loss after Arca's death. Again, that's an individual's fault, not the Order's fault. I also seem to remember that Exar Kun never used the Massassi as combat troops, and only used Sith sorcery to forcibly turn Jedi to the Dark Side and to cause his spirit to run wild. Again, I don't see where your argument is coming from.

 

Palpatine was a master of Dun Moch and used it heavily during his duel with Yoda.

Just because he used in his duel with his little green friend does not mean he always used it. For example, Obi-Wan used Shii-Cho in the duel against Dooku on the Invisible Hand, but used Soresu against Grievous on Utupau.

 

Traya had studied and mastered perception control at Malachor, it is her core ability. She could not only hide her aura, but her presence too. And she could remotely control memories, send telepathic messages across the Galaxy. Do Palpatine's abilities reach that far?

I'm sure it does. You'd think Yoda or any of the other Jedi would sense that he's strong in the Force at some point, but they don't figure it out until it's too late. As for the telepathy, Palpatine was able to send an order to kill Skywalker to Mara Jade just before he died. So Palpy's telepathic abilities are just as good as Kreia's, if not better.

 

More like he reattaches those body parts and then uses Force Crush on whoever did it.

How would he reattach those parts?

 

Actually he was practically as close to invincible as you can get: the only way you can kill him in combat is if he is willing to die. A lot had happened in TSL to make him doubt himself and Darth Traya, and then you had the Exile whom if Female he secretly love and if Male he was jealous of. Palpatine has no such advantage.

Those may have been game mechanics, after all, if Sion could be killed through decapitation (nobody knows whether he could or couldn't be killed that way for sure), we'd have an M rated TSL.

 

Because Starkiller is uber 1337? Starkiller has a lot of potential but like Darth Vader before A New Hope it was not refined.

The guy from the trailer invaded the Jedi Temple, but had help. Starkiller, on the other hand, has single-handedly invaded and destroyed Imperial bases crawling with Imps, fought two rancors simultaneously, killed Shaak Ti while avoiding a mega-sarlaac, and brought down a freakin' Star Destroyer. I'd say his potential was fairly refined at the very least.

 

Because Bane was the very founder of Palpy's Order. Palpy's techniques were acquired either through Holocrons or the teachings of Darth Bane that were passed on and refined over time.

And if something is refined, then that means it's improved. And the holocrons Bane had included one by Darth Revan, so I see no reason why Palpatine wouldn't have learned from the same holocron and learned the same things. The only advantage I see with Bane is that he knew every lightsaber form, which is nothing compared to Palpy's Force powers.

 

Considering you had a Force Blackhole (Exile), some mortal (Mandalore), and his former apprentice (Visas), he had no reason to consume them immediately. If Palpatine was there instead, Nihilus' reaction would have been "FOODFOODFOODFOOD!!! OM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM!!!"

Nihilius could have absorbed Mandalore as soon as he saw him. Also, Nihilius probably didn't realize that the Exile was a Force wound, and thought she was a regular Jedi, so really, he could have absorbed them at any time, but his overconfidence was his weakness. For Visas, being a Sith, he wouldn't hesitate to kill her. Palpatine might have just Force stromed the guy from the safety of his ship and take out the Ravager along with Nihilius.

 

Shooting him in the back would have done nothing. There was no flesh: he was a spirit, some robes, and armor. They would have singed his robe and right after would have been attacked.

Alright, you have obviously misinterpreted Kreia's comment on him. You can just make out a face behind the mask, and Kreia did say that you might be able to describe him as a man, not a spirit. I also think he was at the Battle of Malachor V. How could he be a spirit?

 

You don't just use an ability of that power requirement on that magnitude in an instant. And as pointed out in Dark Empire Palpatine had little to no control.

Control of the power has no releveance or relation to the conjuring time.

 

Except in Dark Empire Luke and Leia escaped?

Palpatine, like you said, couldn't really control it, and something of that magnitude is more suited for destroying armies than individuals.

 

If he's fleeing his guard is down, and if there is no shielding of a body his spirit is more vulnerable to Force assault.

Force assault, not physical assault.

 

What are these accomplishments you keep talking about? The Jedi Order at that time was PATHETIC, just as blinded by their own hubris as Palpy was at the Battle of Endor and several other instances! The Republic was already on its way to becoming like the Empire. He was defeated by his half dead apprentice throwing him into a reactor core, then again by two junior Jedi Knights. All the damage that was ever dealt to the Alliance was through Imperial Forces, not by him.

The Jedi killed the Emperor, survived the Vong War, was reestablished, and was able to survive tons of anti-Jedi sentiment. The Jedi were also not blinded, but pre-occupied with the Clone Wars, Vong War, Second Civil War, etc. Pathetic? You have seriously flawed logic.

 

A Sith Empire that at least at one point was completely solidified, unified, and possessed a massive section of the Galaxy under its fist? Nearly defeating the Republic and returning to finish the job again? Possessing some of the most powerful Sith techniques available?

Solidified and unified? Then why did Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh almost start a civil war?

 

Their defeat was a JOKE.

Hardly. If I were one of them, I wouldn't expect a guy at Palpatine's age to all of a sudden leap out and corkscrew through the air. Kit Fisto was at least able to block Palpatine's blows after being surprised, so that's something. And Mace would have won if Anakin had stayed put.

 

So you think that the clones would have won the Battle of the Jedi Temple that quickly and easily without Anakin, or at all? Anakin managed to take down their greatest lightsaber duelist, who would have managed to rally a significant defense. Many of the successes against the Rebel Alliance were due to Darth Vader.

The Clones had the element of surprise to start with, and most of the people ion the Temple were children. Palpatine might have joined them if Anakin hadn't come along. Also, Mace didn't expect Anakin to attack him, so I'd hardly call that a fair victory. Also, the Alliance didn't always succeed after Endor. They barely survived Thrawn.

 

Then why didn't he just stick with Dooku, a far more refined individual?

You're kidding, right? Anakin had killed him already, and Palpatine goaded him into doing it. He figured he could proceed with his plans without Dooku.

 

So your saying Palpatine is great for speeding up a conflict that was inevitable and then creating an Empire that the Core Worlds already wanted? Revan converted a host of Jedi and Republic officers and soldiers to defy their core LOYALTIES and serve him. That take genius.

It also takes genius to turn Anakin to the Dark side, eradicate the Jedi, manipulating everyone into believing the Jedi were villains, etc. Palptine was much better than Revan, like it or not.

 

Tell that to the Infinite Empire.

That has no relevance whatsoever to the Galactic Empire. The Rakata also fell due to bad timing. A massive rebellion starts just as a plague comes in. The Empire could just crush rebellions.

 

Sounds like not only was Palpatine a somewhat powerless figurehead, but his empire was set to divide into a bunch of feudal states at any given time.

Do you think that President Obama runs every single Federal Department and organization? Nope, and the same thing applies to here.

 

That was likely just the beginning of what was about to happen as soon as a Death Star arms races would have erupted.

No matter how much you read Darksaber, only something as big as the Galactic Empire could have made something on the scale of the Death Star.

 

Yeah, that is so whity. If you are trying to make me feel like somehow my arguments are poorly constructed and you are an expert on this field, you are not succeeding.

He seems expert enough to me. Your arguments, to me, have more holes than average. Just because you think the older Sith are better does not make it fact. You can like them, but that does not automatically make them more powerful than everyone else.

 

Have you read 1984 by chance? Using the right technology, any faction could pretend that Palpatine is on their side to the point where Palpatine doesn't have to even be alive any more. The fact that his actual death could be proven made such an act impossible, but if he had never died at Endor they could have quietly assassinated him, and then pretended for a while that he was alive with good tech.

I could be wrong here, but I believe some Imperial admirals tried to maintain that the Emperor was still alive to the different planets that they controlled.

 

They were already researching even more powerful weapons. I sincerely doubt that the Death Star I was the only one that they would have built. To quote one man: "The Emperor had little of anything built only once."

You're right: they built another Death Star. They also built the Eclipse twice, and there was a Death Star prototype located at the Maw, and they had tons of World Devastators. They probably would have started on those even if the Emperor was still alive.

 

YET. What happens when the equally overhyped Thrawn combines Imperial Forces with the tech and resources of the Chiss Ascendancy? How long does Palpatine last against a strategist like that with such an army?

He uses either a Force Storm, uses the Eclipse or some other superweapon to wipe out the fleet. And Thrawn would never betray the Emperor, either.

 

It would take awhile but it is perfectly possible. As for betrayal, even your average Sith doesn't betray his/her teammate before achieving their goal. In fact, if Vader runs a secret One Sith-style order, betrayal is even more unlikely.

 

And Vader, if he's gone completely over, will likely turn on Palpatine out of his own ambition and after recognizing that Palpatine's actions (immortality and the like) would result in the stagnation of the Sith Order as a whole.

It is not possible. The Jedi take in people to become part of the Order when they're really young, and spend decades trying to perfect their training. And Vader probably wouldn't be man enough to take down the Emperor, seeing how he regretted his decision to be Palpy's servant.

 

He was able to deflect his lightning in the same way as Yoda...I'd say that's pretty dang good.

True, but he still died after trashing part of the Death Star.

 

It is important to the debate because they are all individuals central to the debate. If you're gonna figure out which group defeats which, you gotta make an accurate assessment of each one. So far I'd say the assessment of Palpy has as usual been very off.

Palpy's assessment is based on what we know. Your assessments seem to be based on your theories, which causes your assessments to be off.