Fourth Chapter,The Trial and Execution of Guybrush Threepwood

[Ascovel]

But what was overly dramatic exactly? Guybrush's POV for a few seconds? "Unholy this"?

 

It seemed like a standard Guybrush/LeChuck confrontation to me.

[ThunderPeel2001]

It seemed like a standard Guybrush/LeChuck confrontation to me.

 

What are you talking about? We're discussing Morgan's "death".

[Capn_Nacho]

I got the "kick his butt" line right away, so I thought it was cute, self-referential cheesy rather than just hideously cliched.

 

I don't have any particularly big problem with the overtly dramatic scenes, but I don't really find them compelling in any way. I love Telltale and have loved the series--chapter Four included--but I think it's silly to expect that kind of emotional resonance in a Monkey Island game, especially one that Grossman has already stated doesn't ultimately change the status quo of the series to any big extent.

 

Again, I don't think that scenes like Morgan's and Guybrush's deaths hurt the game in any real way, but I found them more absurd than dramatic. To refer to this game's ending as a "tearjerker" is, frankly, beyond me.

 

No offense. Love you guys.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I got the "kick his butt" line right away, so I thought it was cute, self-referential cheesy rather than just hideously clichéd.

 

Yeah, that was the least cheesy moment in both deaths and the bit I liked most (along with the suddenness of the stabbing of GB).

[KestrelPi]

I think they do deserve some credit - Telltale's main experience so far has come from the two sam and max seasons, and they've had strong bad too - with those series they are hardly ever serious on any level, you can be as wacky as you like. Monkey Island is much more grounded, so it must be tough finding the right balance so that it can be both funny and dramatic. This is something I can only imagine they'll get better at in time.

[KestrelPi]

It was not my intention to imply that the answer to my question is necessary for criticizing the death scene. And most certainly I don't ask anyone to make a better Monkey Island game on their own (we have plenty of amateur sequels already). I just thought that perhaps ThuderPeel had some different idea of how the scene should be done and I would be interested in hearing it.

 

P.S. I wasn't really meaning to imply that that's what you meant, which is why I was saying it could be interesting to speculate. But I hear that argument of 'well why don't you do better?' too often so I wanted to divert that bandwagon before people jumped on it

 

Anyway, here's what I would have done to increase the dramatic weight of chapter 4:

 

I would have made more of the puzzles about what was going on in the story. For example the Feast for the Senses bit that makes up most of the second half of the game was related to the story in that the aim was to make the sponge bit, but the actual individual bits of the puzzle weren't really connected to the story at all.

 

So, as an example (just an example!) of what might have been done instead, maybe they could have focused the second half of the episode on finding evidence to help LeChuck in his own trial. Instead of suddenly being his best buddy, you'd start out still kinda suspicious but as you solve puzzles for him and gain new items of supposed evidence, your bond solidifies, so that there's some real character development through the second half of the chapter. Meanwhile you gradually become more and more suspicious of the voodoo lady's actions.

 

Then in the final scene, when the betrayal comes, it would be all the more jarring and the betrayal would automatically be more painfully felt just because of this level of trust you thought you had built up. As for the sponge, they could have easily found some other way of making that bigger, or curtailed that series of puzzles (I'm not saying that the puzzles were bad, just that they distracted from the main story) to make them less important in the second half.

 

In other words, I don't think the problem with the scenes was the scenes themselves - I think they just felt a little jarring because there was not enough of a narrative 'ramp' into them. It didn't ring true to me that guybrush, who has always suspected LeChuck in this series would just suddenly be best buds with him on the basis of 5 minutes and a single piece of evidence being flashed at him.

[Ascovel]

What are you talking about? We're discussing Morgan's "death".

 

Morgan's "death"? But we are aren't really sure that she died, are we? Even the camera avoided showing up close her "having been run through" with the sword.

 

Regardless, the scene is clearly a plot device for the next episode. On its own it's rather pointless.

 

It didn't ring true to me that guybrush, who has always suspected LeChuck in this series would just suddenly be best buds with him on the basis of 5 minutes and a single piece of evidence being flashed at him.

 

LeChuck saved Guybrush from certain death and turned himself in with no hint of what could he be gaining from all this. I'd say this does make him quite trustworthy, especially when you combine this with the evidence from the Voodoo Lady's journal which she apparently admitted herself as being the real thing.

 

But yes, I must say your version could have been even better storywise. Although I'm afraid the quality of the puzzles would suffer if Telltale went in that direction. I think any true evidence for LeChuck's case could be only found in the Voodoo Lady's belongings - so the puzzles would mostly concern unlocking the doors to her shack or something like that.

[ThunderPeel2001]

But we are aren't really sure that she died, are we?

 

What's your point? Guybrush believes she's dead and the player is also supposed to believe she's dead -- otherwise there is no point to that scene AT ALL.

 

Think about it, there are two possibilities for events in the final chapter:

 

1. She really IS dead. The player is supposed to feel Guybrush's pain. "I'll get revenge for you!", "Although you cut off my hand, you were still my friend *sniff*", etc. (And he might meet her in the "afterlife", too.)

 

or

 

2. She's not really dead. She's going to appear in a surprising moment, with Guybrush shocked and relieved, "Morgan! I thought you were dead!".

 

If we don't believe she's dead, then both of these situations fall completely flat for us, the viewer. With that in mind, there is no choice but to try and make her death in Chapter 4 as convincing and moving as possible, so that we might feel something approximating Guybrush's emotions when either of those two events occur.

 

If we don't think she's dead (and does anyone really think we're not going to see her again?) then both of the above two events are dull and uninteresting. (A flat monotone voice: "Woo, you're alive." or "Oh, woe is me. She is gone forever.")

 

But mainly her death scene sucked because it was dull and uninteresting, and not in any way moving or effective. Also, what was the lack of bodily fluids? LeSinge even suggests that the blood on the floor was from his samples... but there wasn't blood on the floor. Or on the sword. Or on LeFlay.

 

Hell, even the supposedly rotting Lion's paw looked like it was taken from a cuddly toy... What happened to the gross bones and things from the first two games?

[Ascovel]

What's your point? Guybrush believes she's dead and the player is also supposed to believe she's dead -- otherwise there is no point to that scene AT ALL.

 

Think about it, there are two possibilities for events in the final chapter:

 

1. She really IS dead. The player is supposed to feel Guybrush's pain. "I'll get revenge for you!", "Although you cut off my hand, you were still my friend *sniff*", etc. (And he might meet her in the "afterlife", too.)

 

or

 

2. She's not really dead. She's going to appear in a surprising moment, with Guybrush shocked and relieved, "Morgan! I thought you were dead!".

 

If we don't believe she's dead, then both of these situations fall completely flat for us, the viewer. With that in mind, there is no choice but to try and make her death in Chapter 4 as convincing and moving as possible, so that we might feel something approximating Guybrush's emotions when either of those two events occur.

 

If we don't think she's dead (and does anyone really think we're not going to see her again?) then both of the above two events are dull and uninteresting. (A flat monotone voice: "Woo, you're alive." or "Oh, woe is me. She is gone forever.")

 

I don't think the player is supposed to assume Margan is definitely dead and feel sad (wouldn't fit the mood of the reminder of the episode anyway). Rather from the very moment De Singe is seen running away from his house, the player is supposed to be wondering: "what is going on?" The scene with Morgan feels very fishy throughout and in my opinion this is on purpose. The player is supposed to wonder about what did actually happen, is she dead or is she not, and later, where did her body disappeared to, was De Singe lying, what is it about those monkeys. In other words this was supposed to be a creepy, mysterious scene and a teaser for the next episode's revelations.

[robearth]

In other words this was supposed to be a creepy, mysterious scene and a teaser for the next episode's revelations.

 

What the scene was supposed to emit does not change that it was poorly written. I for one, felt like it was supposed to cause the same player reaction as the lighthouse scene from Grim Fandango.

 

That scene (I assume most of you have played GF) is a good comparison. And the way those two scenes differ from eachother in terms of;

how the earlier events led to the scene,

how the scene played out,

and what impact the scene had on the events following after it,

are just astronomical, even if the scenes have the same concept.

 

I'm not suggesting Telltale should copy the lighthousescene, I'm just saying that it's an example of a good way of building up a dramatic scene. Morgans "death"-scene is (to me) an example of a bad way of building a dramatic scene.

 

[EDIT: for those of you who don't remember, here's a youtube vid I found of the GF-scene, start at 2 minutes:

]

[Haggis]

What the scene was supposed to emit does not change that it was poorly written. I for one, felt like it was supposed to cause the same player reaction as the lighthouse scene from Grim Fandango.

It actually did that for me.

 

But then, I always get emotional at the point when the film makers put the "HERE'S WHERE YOU GET CHOKED UP" cue right under my nose. I even know that an emotional bit is coming, I know what the film makers (or in this case, game designers) are expecting of me, I know that it's all artificial emotion, and yet... it happens.

 

I can only attribute this to my brain being wired in a certain way. Others need different stimuli to get at the emotion, I just need cheesy violin music and a close up shot of an actor looking really sad.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I don't think the player is supposed to assume Margan is definitely dead and feel sad. Rather from the very moment De Singe is seen running away from his house, the player is supposed to be wondering: "what is going on?" The scene with Morgan feels very fishy throughout and in my opinion this is on purpose. The player is supposed to wonder about what did actually happen, is she dead or is she not, and later, where did her body disappeared to, was De Singe lying, what is it about those monkeys. In other words this was supposed to be a creepy, mysterious scene and a teaser for the next episode's revelations.

 

I didn't find the scene creepy or mysterious either, but I see what you're trying to say.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I can only attribute this to my brain being wired in a certain way. Others need different stimuli to get at the emotion, I just need cheesy violin music and a close up shot of an actor looking really sad.

 

Wow! I guess you're just very sensitive.

 

You tell the difference when it's "earned" and when it's a bit cheesy, though?

[Haggis]

You tell the difference when it's "earned" and when it's a bit cheesy, though?

Oh, yes, I can tell the difference alright. It's just that I often get emotional at those 'earned' moments, perhaps more often than the average person. And it's not even as if I cry, I just get choked up, that's all. Sometimes more than others, depending on the way it's presented. But I suppose I'm rather sensitive in that regard, yes.

[Ochobobo]

I actually kind of liked the ending. Partially because of the suddenness of everything that happened, (LeChuck pulling a sword out of nowhere and stabbing Guybrush, all while Guybrush still trusted him) and also because of all the references to previous Monkey Island games.

 

• "Unholy this!" surprisingly didn't feel very forced, as far as references to ridiculous sayings in previous games go. Though Guybrush kinda walked right into it by first saying, "Unholy what?" lol
  
• "Kick his butt for me, Elaine." http://www.scummbar.com/mi2/MI1-CD/02%20-%20Chapter%20Screen.mp3
  
• "Go to hell, LeChuck." So he did. *eyes widen*
  
• All topped off with the oldest and most classic of the swordfighting insults.
  

 

Though I kinda wished the credits started off with "You scored 0 of 800 points." That would've been great. lol

 

Of course I know Guybrush will come back to life in the next episode. Though I like how this ending showed that the main villain changed from De Singe to LeChuck, showing that the next episode will be a classic "LeChuck vs. Guybrush" fight.

[Ascovel]

Of course I know Guybrush will come back to life in the next episode. Though I like how this ending showed that the main villain changed from De Singe to LeChuck, showing that the next episode will be a classic "LeChuck vs. Guybrush" fight.

 

I feel De Singe might have left a clone of himself. Or at least some Doomsday Device.

[LordTrilobite]

Though I like how this ending showed that the main villain changed from De Singe to LeChuck, showing that the next episode will be a classic "LeChuck vs. Guybrush" fight.

Which is also really typical for MI.

[Thrik]

Bit late to the party here, but I just burned through chapters 3 and 4 and think they're easily the strongest two of the series thus far. Chapter 3 was very satisfying from a gameplay perspective, whereas chapter 4 was fantastic on a story level I thought and I loved the overall atmosphere of Flotsam by night. About time we went inside a damn bar!

 

I personally don't get all this criticism about the

deaths

at all — I thought they did a great job of injecting some higher stakes into the story without being too dramatic about it. Besides, did anyone at any point really think the

deaths would be permanent?

I certainly never did, even as

Morgan clearly seemed to die.

Of course now watch it turn out that last one was permanent.

 

I think this latest episode really brought home to me how quality this series has actually been. The engine seems to be at its best handling these darker scenes, with the aesthetics being way above EMI in my opinion. And also not only did this episode feature some great music of its own, but it also reused some of the best stuff from the previous ones.

 

At this point I can definitely say Tales of Monkey Island sits well above EMI as an overall game for me, although as I suspected it hasn't come particularly close to knocking any of the original trilogy off the top three seats.

[Ochobobo]

Which is also really typical for MI.

 

Hope you're not saying that's a bad thing.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Besides, did anyone at any point really think the

deaths would be permanent?

I certainly never did, even as

Morgan clearly seemed to die.

 

Yup, that's precisely how ineffective that scene was.

[Thrik]

But a properly harrowing death scene would have been out of place in a Monkey Island game. Obviously a death scene had to occur as it was part of the story (and I'm glad it was as it set up the superb fifth episode), and I thought the tone they went for worked pretty well as not being too fluffy but also not being too dark.

 

I'm not going to become an apologist though — you obviously didn't like them. I'm just saying when I played it those scenes didn't stand out as lame to me in the slightest. I've heard just as many people praising them as criticising them so I guess they're just a bit hit-and-miss depending on expectations or something.

[LordTrilobite]

Hope you're not saying that's a bad thing.

Not at all. Staying true to the spirit of the old games is a good thing.

[ThunderPeel2001]

But a properly harrowing death scene would have been out of place in a Monkey Island game. Obviously a death scene had to occur as it was part of the story (and I'm glad it was as it set up the superb fifth episode), and I thought the tone they went for worked pretty well as not being too fluffy but also not being too dark.

 

I'm not going to become an apologist though — you obviously didn't like them. I'm just saying when I played it those scenes didn't stand out as lame to me in the slightest. I've heard just as many people praising them as criticising them so I guess they're just a bit hit-and-miss depending on expectations or something.

 

Yeah, I guess so. I wouldn't be going on about it if I hadn't been SO shocked by its quality. It pulled me out of the game, I was just like, "What's going on? Is

she

really dead? If so, then I'm shocked... but I'm confused -- the game doesn't seem to making much of a big deal about it, so maybe she isn't. In which case, that's a really lame fake-out." (Which I think was my final conclusion, I can't quite remember.)

 

It's a balance, to be sure, but it's not a balance about going "too dark", it's about balance about where the audience is emotionally prepared to go. A three minute death scene in the middle of an episode of Sesame Street is going to jar terribly... but I think TOMI has much more emotional scope than that.

 

I think the balance and tone would have matched TOMI's perfectly...

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