Ground Zero Mosque

[GODKING]

Well i am american too and i have a problem with it and i know plenty of people who do.

 

And The Doctor I would argue back, but then it would turn out to be another Rigged football thing and we still arent done agrueing over that.

[The Doctor]

Well i am american too and i have a problem with it and i know plenty of people who do.

That's nice. Doesn't make your arguments here any more valid or convincing.

 

And The Doctor I would argue back, but then it would turn out to be another Rigged football thing and we still arent done agrueing over that.

So you're not even going to bother trying to refute what I've said. Is that because you acknowledge I'm right, or because you just can't think how to reply? Debate is what this area of the forum is for, so if you're holding back to put a stop to the discussion, please feel free to continue.

[Tommycat]

Please make note that while some are painting this as "Americans versus Islam" many New York Muslims have expressed that they too would not want it there. The Saudi King is even willing to pay to have the Mosque(Community Center/whatever) built in a different location.

 

I have said before(in this thread) I think it's in poor taste, but that the government of either New York or the US should not have anything to do with it. I don't think they can anyway, as it would be a violation of the First, Fourth, and possibly 10th Amendment.

[urluckyday]

No, I bloody well wouldn't. Because I, like many of your own fellow Americans, am actually aware of the difference between a proper Muslim and a fundamentalist/extremist. It wasn't Islam that destroyed the World Trade Centre. It wasn't Islam that killed ~3000 people - not all of whom, I feel compelled to point out, where Americans. It wasn't Islam that destroyed the community, the buildings, the sidewalks, or anything at all. It was extremists. Painting the entire faith with the same brush as Al Qaeda is an insult, kid, no two ways about it.

 

I completely agree with you. I totally "get" the "extremist" vs. normal everyday Muslim who wants to live in peace. But you know...the biggest problem with it all is that the normal, peaceful Muslims don't speak up or cry afoul about their extremist counterparts until they are accused. Their silence speaks volumes. I'm all for the mosque because it's a free country and I can be the bigger man and show them that things like that don't bother me, but I think the biggest problem lies deeper within the Muslim culture. I don't if most Muslims silently applaud the work of the extremists, but they certainly don't oppose it with a loud voice. IF they truly do stand against the extremists, they need to stand up against them now, and with a strong effort. I'm not saying go to war or try and oust them or whatever, I'm saying, their leaders need to take an active role in explaining to the people that normal Muslims HATE the extremists as much as everyone else...rather than them waiting for a 60 Minutes interview to say that "oh, well, we don't support them...most of us are nice, accepting people." That's all well and good...but they need to show us that they hate the extremists just like everyone else because they sure haven't shown that yet.

[GODKING]

No, I bloody well wouldn't. Because I, like many of your own fellow Americans, am actually aware of the difference between a proper Muslim and a fundamentalist/extremist. It wasn't Islam that destroyed the World Trade Centre. It wasn't Islam that killed ~3000 people - not all of whom, I feel compelled to point out, where Americans. It wasn't Islam that destroyed the community, the buildings, the sidewalks, or anything at all. It was extremists. Painting the entire faith with the same brush as Al Qaeda is an insult, kid, no two ways about it.

 

These people don't want to "expand their Church's community center". And people from their religion did not destroy the community. A group of people used their religion as an excuse to lash out against people they hated. And now these true Muslims want to build an inter-faith building of peace and respectful tolerance that would be open to everyone, regardless of their religious affiliation. If that isn't a slap in the face of Islamic extremism, I don't bloody well know what is.

 

I'd also like to just say that, whether you meant offence or not, I am in fact offended by the implication that I can't mourn the loss of American lives because I'm Canadian. The events of September 11th shook the whole world, not just your little corner of it.

 

Well if you assist and you said like many americans how do you know how AMERICANS feel unless you asked them? This topic wouldn't be in the news if americans didnt care. You cant agrue that. I do not say that I speak for all American ethier I speak for me and people who i know their opinion.

 

I meant no offense to you being Canadian. What i meant to say is that you living in a different country than where 9/11 took place can you honestly say that it had the same effect on you than someone who lives in the American. I understand that 9/11 had shockwaves on people everywhere, but it had the biggest impact on US Citizens because it was aimmed at the US not Britian, not Canada, not Germany, but America.

 

The fact that it was extremist doesn't change the fact that they were muslims. Their are extremist christians, but they are still called christians. Just because they take their religion to a different level doesnt change the fact that its still their religion. Or because they see something in their Bible or Kran differently or more severly than others still makes them a part of that religion.

 

You said that this community center accepts everyone. Well, do you think they would turn away an muslim extremist just because they see their religion a bit different or more extreme no because they accept everyone.

 

However, just because they say its open to everyone doesn't mean it will be. They could just say that so they can build there and then not open to other people than Muslims.

 

Just because it is open to everyone doesn't mean everyone is going to go their do you think a christian is really going to go there? I would doubt it, but i cant talk for all christians.

 

The muslims see that the people aren't happy about this you think they could show some empathy and just build somewhere else, but yet they still press on even though they know the history that happen close to there and that millions of americans arent happy.

[The Doctor]

I completely agree with you. I totally "get" the "extremist" vs. normal everyday Muslim who wants to live in peace. But you know...the biggest problem with it all is that the normal, peaceful Muslims don't speak up or cry afoul about their extremist counterparts until they are accused. Their silence speaks volumes.

Funny, I've never heard you, or a good number of other Christians for that matter, criticise the fundamentalist Christians who blow up abortion clinics or picket soldiers' funerals. I don't remember the last time I heard a Christian talk about how they hate what either Young Earth Creationism of the Catholic Church of old has done to discredit the word "Christian". Does your and their silence speak equal volumes, or is there a double standard I'm not aware of?

 

I'm all for the mosque because it's a free country and I can be the bigger man and show them that things like that don't bother me, but I think the biggest problem lies deeper within the Muslim culture. I don't if most Muslims silently applaud the work of the extremists, but they certainly don't oppose it with a loud voice.

Neither do Christians.

 

I'm not saying go to war or try and oust them or whatever, I'm saying, their leaders need to take an active role in explaining to the people that normal Muslims HATE the extremists as much as everyone else...rather than them waiting for a 60 Minutes interview to say that "oh, well, we don't support them...most of us are nice, accepting people."

I eagerly await the Pope's upcoming speech finally speaking out against anti-abortionist bombings and the like.

 

That's all well and good...but they need to show us that they hate the extremists just like everyone else because they sure haven't shown that yet.

Practise before you preach, please.

 

Well if you assist and you said like many americans how do you know how AMERICANS feel unless you asked them? This topic wouldn't be in the news if americans didnt care. You cant agrue that. I do not say that I speak for all American ethier I speak for me and people who i know their opinion.

Do you assume that because I live in Canada I have little to no access to American opinions? Because that's an incredibly ignorant and fallacious belief. Not only are American news and opinion stations broadcast on Canadian television just as they are on American, but I also happen to have a good number of online contacts/friends who live all over the States, from California to Georgia to New York to Washington.

 

I also don't see where I ever said that Americans didn't care. I simply said that they're not the only ones who care.

 

I meant no offense to you being Canadian. What i meant to say is that you living in a different country than where 9/11 took place can you honestly say that it had the same effect on you than someone who lives in the American. I understand that 9/11 had shockwaves on people everywhere, but it had the biggest impact on US Citizens because it was aimmed at the US not Britian, not Canada, not Germany, but America.

Wrong. The attack on the World Trade Centre was aimed at the western world and its typically/traditionally Christian values. The target happened to be on American soil because, whether much of the western world likes it or not, America is and has for years been the face of the west.

 

The fact that it was extremist doesn't change the fact that they were muslims. Their are extremist christians, but they are still called christians. Just because they take their religion to a different level doesnt change the fact that its still their religion. Or because they see something in their Bible or Kran differently or more severly than others still makes them a part of that religion.

A fair point. So are you saying that I should start protesting the existence of Churches in neighbourhoods where abortion clinics have been bombed? Should I complain that there are Christian churches built on countless sights of violence and hate throughout Europe and western Asia? You're upholding a double standard. Just because there are some Christians out there who take extreme action against what they believe to be wrong doesn't mean that you or any other Christian shares or agrees with that ideology.

 

You said that this community center accepts everyone. Well, do you think they would turn away an muslim extremist just because they see their religion a bit different or more extreme no because they accept everyone.

Yes, because you just know that Al Qaeda operatives are going to be incredibly eager to surround themselves with Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, etc. in a community centre in the Land of the Heathen. If you ask me, that's a problem that solves itself.

 

However, just because they say its open to everyone doesn't mean it will be. They could just say that so they can build there and then not open to *other people than Muslims.

Are you under the impression that there's a membership card or something? You think they'll have a secret knock, or a password or something? How exactly do you see a public community centre disallowing entry to non-Muslims?

 

Just because it is open to everyone doesn't mean everyone is going to go their do you think a christian is really going to go there? I would doubt it, but i cant talk for all christians.

No, not all Christians will go. But if you don't want to go simply based on the fact that it happens to contain a Muslim prayer room in its 13 floors of pools, lecture halls, restaurants, etc., then I'm afraid I have to inform you of my policy against discussing such things with ideologues.

[GODKING]

I completely agree with you. I totally "get" the "extremist" vs. normal everyday Muslim who wants to live in peace. But you know...the biggest problem with it all is that the normal, peaceful Muslims don't speak up or cry afoul about their extremist counterparts until they are accused. Their silence speaks volumes. I'm all for the mosque because it's a free country and I can be the bigger man and show them that things like that don't bother me, but I think the biggest problem lies deeper within the Muslim culture. I don't if most Muslims silently applaud the work of the extremists, but they certainly don't oppose it with a loud voice. IF they truly do stand against the extremists, they need to stand up against them now, and with a strong effort. I'm not saying go to war or try and oust them or whatever, I'm saying, their leaders need to take an active role in explaining to the people that normal Muslims HATE the extremists as much as everyone else...rather than them waiting for a 60 Minutes interview to say that "oh, well, we don't support them...most of us are nice, accepting people." That's all well and good...but they need to show us that they hate the extremists just like everyone else because they sure haven't shown that yet.

 

Thats just it if they HATED them than they would say something. Have you every considered that this Muslims are proud of what these other Muslism extremist have done. I can't say that this is true because i am not muslim, but it sounds pretty logical. You can't say that they hated them unless your muslims and thats how you feel or they have said something to the public, but i bet your not muslim and they havent said anything to the public like you.

 

Funny, I've never heard you, or a good number of other Christians for that matter, criticise the fundamentalist Christians who blow up abortion clinics or picket soldiers' funerals. I don't remember the last time I heard a Christian talk about how they hate what either Young Earth Creationism of the Catholic Church of old has done to discredit the word "Christian". Does your and their silence speak equal volumes, or is there a double standard I'm not aware of?

 

 

Neither do Christians.

 

 

I eagerly await the Pope's upcoming speech finally speaking out against anti-abortionist bombings and the like.

 

 

Practise before you preach, please.

 

I actually did say something about christian extremist. Plus people are talking about that court case of those christian extremist picketing dead soldiers funeral. We talked about it at my school

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Funny, I've never heard you, or a good number of other Christians for that matter, criticise the fundamentalist Christians who blow up abortion clinics or picket soldiers' funerals. I don't remember the last time I heard a Christian talk about how they hate what either Young Earth Creationism of the Catholic Church of old has done to discredit the word "Christian". Does your and their silence speak equal volumes, or is there a double standard I'm not aware of?

Have you followed Kavar's Corner much in the last few years. I think if you did a quick overview of the threads, topics, and opinions, you will find a vast divergence in opinions and levels of outspokenness in the Christian users of this forum.

 

In the US, the vast majority are born "Christian" as I was all those years ago... I no longer self-identify as Christian. I loudly criticize extremism on all sides, just as you wish.... Is this satisfactory evidence to throw out your claim?

 

Thank you for making a GINORMOUS hasty generalization about Christians, and for equivocating Christians with Catholicism. Have you heard of the Reformation?

 

Practise before you preach, please.

And preach less when your practice is insufficient for the task!

[The Doctor]

Thats just it if they HATED them than they would say something. Have you every considered that this Muslims are proud of what these other Muslism extremist have done. I can't say that this is true because i am not muslim, but it sounds pretty logical. You can't say that they hated them unless your muslims and thats how you feel or they have said something to the public, but i bet your not muslim and they havent said anything to the public like you.

Again, the same can be said for the majority of the moderate Christian population.

 

I actually did say something about christian extremist. Plus people are talking about that court case of those christian extremist picketing dead soldiers funeral. We talked about it at my school

Good, I'm glad you speak out against such extremism. That doesn't change the fact that countless other Christians do not. Unless of course you ask them about it.

 

Have you followed Kavar's Corner much in the last few years. I think if you did a quick overview of the threads, topics, and opinions, you will find a vast divergence in opinions and levels of outspokenness in the Christian users of this forum.

Okay, so a good number of the moderate Christians populating Kavar's are outspoken against Christian extremism. Good, I'm glad to hear it. The fact remains that there are still Christians out there who don't. The same can be said Muslims: some of the moderates have spoken out, and a percentage of them haven't.

 

In the US, the vast majority are born "Christian" as I was all those years ago... I no longer self-identify as Christian. I loudly criticize extremism on all sides, just as you wish.... Is this satisfactory evidence to throw out your claim?

Sure. It's enough for me to concede that some moderate Christians do indeed feel shame for what extremists of their faith do. It's nowhere near enough to quell the fact that the leaders of the faith have not, just as the leaders of Islam have not publicly disavowed ties to their own extremists. If it's okay for Christian leaders to be quiet about the religion's extremists, why isn't it okay for Islamic leaders to do the same? Is it impossible to conceive that neither one wishes to give their respective extremists validation, or the satisfaction of acknowledging and publicising their actions?

 

Thank you for making a GINORMOUS hasty generalization about Christians, and for equivocating Christians with Catholicism. Have you heard of the Reformation?

Of course I have. I was baptised Anglican and raised Canadian Presbyterian. That doesn't change the fact that when the vast majority of people hear the word "Christian", they think of the Catholic Church. Not to mention the fact that the Catholic Church is far from the only denomination of Christianity to have committed incredible wrongs; it's merely the one I happened to mention. But when a member of any Christian denomination commits an act seen as controversial, the faith itself is smeared regardless of denomination.

 

I do apologise if I inadvertently offended any particular denominations.

 

And preach less when your practice is insufficient for the task!

If I'm "preaching" anything, it's an end to uninformed and bigoted opposition to something far more akin to a Muslim YMCA than a mosque. I feel I practise tolerance quite enough to be getting on with, thank you, so you'll forgive me if I don't put too much weight on this closing statement of yours.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Perhaps you missed my post on the first page of this thread?

[GODKING]

Funny, I've never heard you, or a good number of other Christians for that matter, criticise the fundamentalist Christians who blow up abortion clinics or picket soldiers' funerals. I don't remember the last time I heard a Christian talk about how they hate what either Young Earth Creationism of the Catholic Church of old has done to discredit the word "Christian". Does your and their silence speak equal volumes, or is there a double standard I'm not aware of?

 

 

Neither do Christians.

 

 

I eagerly await the Pope's upcoming speech finally speaking out against anti-abortionist bombings and the like.

 

 

Practise before you preach, please.

 

 

Do you assume that because I live in Canada I have little to no access to American opinions? Because that's an incredibly ignorant and fallacious belief. Not only are American news and opinion stations broadcast on Canadian television just as they are on American, but I also happen to have a good number of online contacts/friends who live all over the States, from California to Georgia to New York to Washington.

 

I also don't see where I ever said that Americans didn't care. I simply said that they're not the only ones who care.

 

 

Wrong. The attack on the World Trade Centre was aimed at the western world and its typically/traditionally Christian values. The target happened to be on American soil because, whether much of the western world likes it or not, America is and has for years been the face of the west.

 

 

A fair point. So are you saying that I should start protesting the existence of Churches in neighbourhoods where abortion clinics have been bombed? Should I complain that there are Christian churches built on countless sights of violence and hate throughout Europe and western Asia? You're upholding a double standard. Just because there are some Christians out there who take extreme action against what they believe to be wrong doesn't mean that you or any other Christian shares or agrees with that ideology.

 

 

Yes, because you just know that Al Qaeda operatives are going to be incredibly eager to surround themselves with Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, etc. in a community centre in the Land of the Heathen. If you ask me, that's a problem that solves itself.

 

 

Are you under the impression that there's a membership card or something? You think they'll have a secret knock, or a password or something? How exactly do you see a public community centre disallowing entry to non-Muslims?

 

 

No, not all Christians will go. But if you don't want to go simply based on the fact that it happens to contain a Muslim prayer room in its 13 floors of pools, lecture halls, restaurants, etc., then I'm afraid I have to inform you of my policy against discussing such things with ideologues.

 

First off i never said that you didn't have access to American media of anykind. All i said is that you try to talk for many american when you don't live here. Plus if you watch the AMERICAN media most americans are completely againest this. and you said and i quote "many of your fellow americans" so indeed you did try to speak for people you do no known or have heard their opinions. Plus you may have friends from all over the world yes so do i but i doubt you talked about this with them. (then your going to reply to this yes i have)

 

You still didn't answer my question did you think 9/11 had the same affect on you as someone who lives in America? You totally ignored that question. And the fact that they attack America wasn't only because of their christian values that is were you are wrong! They also attack american because we tried to spread Democracy and freedom throughout the world. That is why the US is the face of the Western World. So get your facts straight too

 

If you feel like protesting a Church no matter where it is thats your freedom. However if the people didnt want that there dont you think the government would have done something or the people protest. Just because I don't believe in how Christian extremist handle the situation doesn't mean i don't believe in what they represent. That the same with the Muslims just because they all dont go to the extremes like some muslims to do what they Bible or Kran says doesnt mean they don't believe in what they represented.

 

You said that Al Queda operatives wont want to be around the jew, christians, etc. well don't you think that this is a prefect target for a bombing or something of that nature because they have all the people they hate in a sacred mosque/ community center that probably would piss them off

[urluckyday]

 

 

If I'm "preaching" anything, it's an end to uninformed and bigoted opposition to something far more akin to a Muslim YMCA than a mosque. I feel I practise tolerance quite enough to be getting on with, thank you, so you'll forgive me if I don't put too much weight on this closing statement of yours.

 

Do you think I am practicing intolerance because few to none of their leaders have stood up against the extremists until asked? I'm pretty sure I speak pretty loudly out against extremists of ANY religion or denomination. If me thinking that the majority of Muslims stand by idly while the extremists mutilate their religion makes me a bigot...then so be it.

[JediMaster12]

I don't think he is saying anything of the kind urluckyday.

 

The facts as far as I know are this: the community center is the proposed site for a mosque and said site is two city blocks from the World Trade Center.

 

The rest is scapegoating and passions running high. The protest against the building of this mosque is at its best a collective insanity that allows hypocrisy and double standards to be revealed. I know this because I have heard it numerous times within my own family.

 

As far as I am concerned, America is the land of the free and home of the brave and that the pilgrims and immigrants who came to this country did so with the intention to practice their belief systems in their own way. When the United States turned into a so called Christian nation is beyond me since the founding fathers were not Christians per se. Rather a large portion of them were Freemasons and I would best characterize them as diests since the believe in a supreme being is a required tenent for Freemasonry and some recovery groups as well.

 

To answer the question GODKING gave about others feeling the effects of September 11th, I believe everyone around the world felt it. Some places it may not have been as large an effect but they felt it nevertheless. Such an attack on what is considered the symbol of the western world is a devastating blow yet I am inclined to think that ther are some Americans out there who have been humbled by this experience and realize that nations like the US are not always right.

 

I know as well the difference between the extremists and the non extremists or true members of a religion. As far as AL-Qaeda is concerned, they are just as bad as other folks throughout history who have justified violence in the name of their god. The ground is still stained from the treatment of the native Indians here in the states and even though they have been making a comeback, things are not as they were. An effect of colonialism supported by Manifest Destiny

 

Frankly people, in my opinion like to engage into this convenient forgetfulness in order to justify their actions. All I see that leading to is hypocrisy on both sides. I admit that I dislike the attitudes by those practicing Catholics and Christians who preach that GLTB is of the devil, etc. To me they are hypocritical in that they preach loving one another and yet they turn around and damn other groups for being different. I am not saying that all Christians or Catholics are like that but it seems to me that this type I mentioned is the majority and when you have a majority, it is difficult for the minority to speak up. I know this because I am the minority in my family. I voice my opinions and it is not easy to stand up to the hurt of being labeled a blasphemer but I continue to do so.

 

I guess my point is that this argument over the mosque is nothing more than insanity and that such insanity is a breeder of hatreds, hypocrisy and double standards.

[The Doctor]

Perhaps you missed my post on the first page of this thread?

I'm afraid I see no posts from you in this thread before the the 5th page. Were you maybe trying to link me to a different thread?

 

First off i never said that you didn't have access to American media of anykind. All i said is that you try to talk for many american when you don't live here. Plus if you watch the AMERICAN media most americans are completely againest this. and you said and i quote "many of your fellow americans" so indeed you did try to speak for people you do no known or have heard their opinions. Plus you may have friends from all over the world yes so do i but i doubt you talked about this with them. (then your going to reply to this yes i have)

You claimed that I had no way of knowing the opinion of the American people. I informed you otherwise. I fail to see how or why you feel the need to make it a talking point here. I do hope, though, that by "AMERICAN media" you don't mean FAUX News. Or MSNBC, for that matter. Basing an opinion of any one station in the mainstream media is a bad move these days. I've talked about and heard opinions on the matter from real Americans, not the mainstream media.

 

I don't know where the hell you get off telling me you know what I've talked to me friends about, especially immediately after claiming that I speak with knowledge I can't possibly possess. Which, as a matter of fact, I do possess. Many of my American friends and I do indeed discuss current events on a regular basis, and this matter has in fact come up with many of them. It's what us grown-ups do. Maybe you'll understand one day.

 

You still didn't answer my question did you think 9/11 had the same affect on you as someone who lives in America? You totally ignored that question. And the fact that they attack America wasn't only because of their christian values that is were you are wrong! They also attack american because we tried to spread Democracy and freedom throughout the world. That is why the US is the face of the Western World. So get your facts straight too

No, I did not ignore your question. But, to put a razor-fine point on it, yes. Yes, I do believe that the September 11th attacks had the same horrific effect on the rest of the world as it did the US. To display the truth of this statement, I ask you this: do you think 9/11 had the same effect on your as someone who lives in Manhattan? You don't live there, you live somewhere else in the country; how can you possibly know how they feel? The answer is easy: empathy. Human compassion. The fact that the very same ideals and beliefs that resulted in that attack are shared by the majority of the western world, Canada included. And I'll say again: not only American life was lost that day. Or do you really think a place like the WTC was occupied solely by Americans that morning?

 

The US is the face of the western world because they're the richest of it. Not because they "tried to spread Democracy and freedom throughout the world". Let me remind you that, just as in the WTC, there are more than just American troops in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. There are Canadians, Britons, French, and many others fighting for the same things throughout the world. Don't insult them by pretending it's just you guys.

 

If you feel like protesting a Church no matter where it is thats your freedom. However if the people didnt want that there dont you think the government would have done something or the people protest.

The government is doing nothing about this, as far as I'm aware. In fact, I gather that they're being decidedly silent on the issue. Yes, "the people" (you use the term as if it consists of a fixed group of the majority, rather than a vocal minority) are protesting. And some of them are arguing with those protesters, as is their right and even their obligation.

 

Just because I don't believe in how Christian extremist handle the situation doesn't mean i don't believe in what they represent. That the same with the Muslims just because they all dont go to the extremes like some muslims to do what they Bible or Kran says doesnt mean they don't believe in what they represented.

And just because you don't know how they all feel doesn't mean they all sympathise with their faith's extremists. I don't presume to think that Christians on the whole are vehemently against gay marriage, or abortion. In fact I know many, some even on this forum, who are in favour of both for varying reasons. And even those I know who are against them wouldn't dream of taking a life over the matter; they're content to let people live in what they feel is the wrong, and respect them regardless. Just as their Christ taught them to. I believe the same of your average Muslim: they may not agree with how Christians or atheists or any of us deal with things just as they don't agree with how their faith's extremists do. But doesn't the fact that they want to open a multi-faith, public community centre tell you all you need to know in regards to how they feel about the extremist jihad?

 

You said that Al Queda operatives wont want to be around the jew, christians, etc. well don't you think that this is a prefect target for a bombing or something of that nature because they have all the people they hate in a sacred mosque/ community center that probably would piss them off

The fact that you can oppose this centre because you feel its owners/operators might sympathetic to the extremists who blew up the WTC, and then go and suggest that the extremists will want to blow it up because of what it represents, boggles my mind. What side do you really think the moderate Muslim is on?

 

Do you think I am practicing intolerance because few to none of their leaders have stood up against the extremists until asked? I'm pretty sure I speak pretty loudly out against extremists of ANY religion or denomination. If me thinking that the majority of Muslims stand by idly while the extremists mutilate their religion makes me a bigot...then so be it.

I think you're practising intolerance by demanding that Muslim leaders speak up against Muslim extremism, while ignoring the fact that your own Christian leaders do not speak out against Christian extremism. That's the very definition of a double standard.

 

If you personally are vocal against Christian extremism, fantastic. That's awesome, I'm glad you do it and I hope you'll continue to do it wherever and whenever you can. But just as you don't like being labelled as an apathetic, unvocal Christian, I imagine that there are many outspoken Muslims out there who feel the same.

[GODKING]

I don't think he is saying anything of the kind urluckyday.

 

The facts as far as I know are this: the community center is the proposed site for a mosque and said site is two city blocks from the World Trade Center.

 

The rest is scapegoating and passions running high. The protest against the building of this mosque is at its best a collective insanity that allows hypocrisy and double standards to be revealed. I know this because I have heard it numerous times within my own family.

 

As far as I am concerned, America is the land of the free and home of the brave and that the pilgrims and immigrants who came to this country did so with the intention to practice their belief systems in their own way. When the United States turned into a so called Christian nation is beyond me since the founding fathers were not Christians per se. Rather a large portion of them were Freemasons and I would best characterize them as diests since the believe in a supreme being is a required tenent for Freemasonry and some recovery groups as well.

 

To answer the question GODKING gave about others feeling the effects of September 11th, I believe everyone around the world felt it. Some places it may not have been as large an effect but they felt it nevertheless. Such an attack on what is considered the symbol of the western world is a devastating blow yet I am inclined to think that ther are some Americans out there who have been humbled by this experience and realize that nations like the US are not always right.

 

I know as well the difference between the extremists and the non extremists or true members of a religion. As far as AL-Qaeda is concerned, they are just as bad as other folks throughout history who have justified violence in the name of their god. The ground is still stained from the treatment of the native Indians here in the states and even though they have been making a comeback, things are not as they were. An effect of colonialism supported by Manifest Destiny

 

Frankly people, in my opinion like to engage into this convenient forgetfulness in order to justify their actions. All I see that leading to is hypocrisy on both sides. I admit that I dislike the attitudes by those practicing Catholics and Christians who preach that GLTB is of the devil, etc. To me they are hypocritical in that they preach loving one another and yet they turn around and damn other groups for being different. I am not saying that all Christians or Catholics are like that but it seems to me that this type I mentioned is the majority and when you have a majority, it is difficult for the minority to speak up. I know this because I am the minority in my family. I voice my opinions and it is not easy to stand up to the hurt of being labeled a blasphemer but I continue to do so.

 

I guess my point is that this argument over the mosque is nothing more than insanity and that such insanity is a breeder of hatreds, hypocrisy and double standards.

 

I got to say that was a very well written and a very respectable point of view and to say something about when our nation became Christian. Our nation was founded on Christian moral, and a lot of the religions dissenters that came over here became a branch of Christianity. So when we wrote the Consitution and bill of rights most of the people based our basic freedoms on their religious beliefs. And if you think about it most of the other religions like Buddhism, Muslim, Hinduism are in the regions that didn't really come to American in it beginning years so when the religions came here they were majorily out numbered. So that is where i get that we have become a unofficial Christian national.

[JediMaster12]

Actually GODKING, the Constitution and the other important documents like the Bill of Rights were written under the basis of natural law. It even says in the Declaration of Independence something about "the laws of Nature and of Nature's god." They did not specifically say God as a vast majority of Christians and Catholics interpret it.

 

The Constitution was the result of the failure of the Articles of Confederation which were not effective because of the fear of giving too much power to one group. The Constitution laid the basis for our checks and balances system. The Bill of Rights were written so as to reassure people of the basic rights that they had fought so long and hard for.

 

The one ammendment that is popular with the press is the freedom of speech, however that same ammendment states that there shall be a separation of church and state and that neither group shall interfere with the other. Unfortunately that has become a reality when critical Supreme Court cases based their decisions on religion rather than facts and that has permeated through our court system in my opinion. So as to the so-called Christian nation, it should not even exist becaus eunder the Constitution there should be a separation of church and state but as I mentioned before, more of that convenient forgetfulness.

[urluckyday]

 

 

I think you're practising intolerance by demanding that Muslim leaders speak up against Muslim extremism, while ignoring the fact that your own Christian leaders do not speak out against Christian extremism. That's the very definition of a double standard.

 

If you personally are vocal against Christian extremism, fantastic. That's awesome, I'm glad you do it and I hope you'll continue to do it wherever and whenever you can. But just as you don't like being labelled as an apathetic, unvocal Christian, I imagine that there are many outspoken Muslims out there who feel the same.

 

Please explain who my Christian leaders are...I'm certainly not Catholic. Muslims have prominent clerics and other such notable leaders...methodists (which is what I am) do not. However, my priests preach against intolerance AND extremism.

[The Doctor]

Okay, so the leaders of the Methodist Church are the priests themselves. I haven't heard their message personally, so they must not be putting one out there. Isn't that basically your logic? Have you entered mosques to hear whether the Imams are speaking against Islamic extremism? I don't really know what you expect from Islamic leaders, but if you want them to preach against Muslim extremists within their congregations then you have to actually join a Muslim service to know whether or not they're doing it. Have you?

 

Or is it just that they haven't let the mainstream media know that they're against extremism? I mean, I haven't watched CNN in a while or anything, but I guess I haven't seen any prominent Islamic voices on their denouncing extremism yet. But if your priests don't go on TV, write to or for national/international newspapers/magazines, or get their denouncement of Christian extremism to the rest of the country/world some other satisfactory way, then I don't see how you can make such demands of the leaders of Islam.

[GODKING]

Actually GODKING, the Constitution and the other important documents like the Bill of Rights were written under the basis of natural law. It even says in the Declaration of Independence something about "the laws of Nature and of Nature's god." They did not specifically say God as a vast majority of Christians and Catholics interpret it.

 

The Constitution was the result of the failure of the Articles of Confederation which were not effective because of the fear of giving too much power to one group. The Constitution laid the basis for our checks and balances system. The Bill of Rights were written so as to reassure people of the basic rights that they had fought so long and hard for.

 

The one ammendment that is popular with the press is the freedom of speech, however that same ammendment states that there shall be a separation of church and state and that neither group shall interfere with the other. Unfortunately that has become a reality when critical Supreme Court cases based their decisions on religion rather than facts and that has permeated through our court system in my opinion. So as to the so-called Christian nation, it should not even exist becaus eunder the Constitution there should be a separation of church and state but as I mentioned before, more of that convenient forgetfulness.

 

Actually we got rid of the Articles of Confederation because when Shay's Rebellion happen they realized that the central government was too weak and that the states had too much power because they couldn't organize a army to put down Shay's Rebellion. So we orginally went to just revise the Articles, but then eventually they just scrap it and ratified the Constitution after they added the Bill of Rights because the Anti-Federalist wouldn't ratifiy it if they didn't and they need 9 states to ratify it. And John Locke Natural Rights are a major contributor to the Consitution I will give you that.

 

I don't think that majority of their precendants are based of religion itself, but more of Christian values and morals. The only one that i can think of off the top of my head that they actually didn't based their decision on Christian Values and Morals is Roe v. Wade (for anyone that doesn't know what that case is, it is the case that made abortion legal.

 

Well, if you ask me our government is now only about getting the votes to stay into office and you have to think that majority of our voters are Christians so if they appeal to Christian Values they are more likely to get a Christians vote. <---- thats my theory

 

And your right this so called Christian Nation shouldn't exist because it against everything that our nation was based off of.

[urluckyday]

But if your priests don't go on TV, write to or for national/international newspapers/magazines, or get their denouncement of Christian extremism to the rest of the country/world some other satisfactory way, then I don't see how you can make such demands of the leaders of Islam.

 

Because my priests don't get on national TV telling people to unite against the Western world. My priests aren't involved with terror plots and taking down two huge buildings with planes. To ignore the fact that the terrorists who attacked the Trade Center were Muslim would be wrong. You can't ignore it because they use their religion as a reason to attack us...we're all just "infidels" right?

[GODKING]

Because my priests don't get on national TV telling people to unite against the Western world. My priests aren't involved with terror plots and taking down two huge buildings with planes. To ignore the fact that the terrorists who attacked the Trade Center were Muslim would be wrong. You can't ignore it because they use their religion as a reason to attack us...we're all just "infidels" right?

 

Amen!! You hit the nail on the head!

[The Doctor]

Because my priests don't get on national TV telling people to unite against the Western world. My priests aren't involved with terror plots and taking down two huge buildings with planes. To ignore the fact that the terrorists who attacked the Trade Center were Muslim would be wrong. You can't ignore it because they use their religion as a reason to attack us...we're all just "infidels" right?

Ask any moderate Muslim if they consider such men "their" priests. Their priests aren't involved in terror plots or taking down buildings with planes either. To say as much is like comparing you and your fellow Methodists to preachers belonging to groups like the KKK: ludicrous. Your priests aren't guilty of lynching blacks or burning crosses on front lawns or anything of the sort, just as the Muslims behind this multi-faith community centre are not guilty of bombing American citizens. To ignore the fact that the terrorists who attacked the WTC were extremists and not representatives of Islam on the whole is ignorant, bigoted, misguided, and - you guessed it - intolerant. We're all infidels in the opinion of the extremist minority. That opinion != the opinion of the typical moderate Muslim.

[JediMaster12]

Just to through some beans out there GODKING:

 

You speak of Christian values and morals. What makes them exactly Christian. A similar group that has no basis in Christianity could still have the same values and morals. It is like a comparison I made a long time ago and it went something like this: A Muslim can be Arab but not all Arabs are Muslim. I am posing the same comparison to what you call Christian morals and values.

[GODKING]

Ask any moderate Muslim if they consider such men "their" priests. Their priests aren't involved in terror plots or taking down buildings with planes either. To say as much is like comparing you and your fellow Methodists to preachers belonging to groups like the KKK: ludicrous. Your priests aren't guilty of lynching blacks or burning crosses on front lawns or anything of the sort, just as the Muslims behind this multi-faith community centre are not guilty of bombing American citizens. To ignore the fact that the terrorists who attacked the WTC were extremists and not representatives of Islam on the whole is ignorant, bigoted, misguided, and - you guessed it - intolerant. We're all infidels in the opinion of the extremist minority. That opinion != the opinion of the typical moderate Muslim.

 

I have one question out of all your friends are any Moderate Muslims because you sure do know a lot about what they think and how they view their religion?!?

[urluckyday]

Ask any moderate Muslim if they consider such men "their" priests. Their priests aren't involved in terror plots or taking down buildings with planes either. To say as much is like comparing you and your fellow Methodists to preachers belonging to groups like the KKK: ludicrous. Your priests aren't guilty of lynching blacks or burning crosses on front lawns or anything of the sort, just as the Muslims behind this multi-faith community centre are not guilty of bombing American citizens. To ignore the fact that the terrorists who attacked the WTC were extremists and not representatives of Islam on the whole is ignorant, bigoted, misguided, and - you guessed it - intolerant. We're all infidels in the opinion of the extremist minority. That opinion != the opinion of the typical moderate Muslim.

 

I AGREE THAT THEY ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVES OF THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY! The moderate/normal Muslims just do not do a good job at giving anyone else comfort that they don't feel the same way that the extremists do. I mean, hey, if they want people to misjudge them, that's fine...but if they ever want perceptions to change, they should do a better job at speaking out against these extremists and trying to understand where WE'RE coming from.