Wisconsonian Fascism

[urluckyday]

Jae just how much does the football program at a major university (such as Ohio State, Texas or Michigan) take away from the schools general fund? Be honest. Now if you are completely honest then you would know it is nothing, zilch, nada, zilch, zip…. Now if you want to rephrase the remark to athletics in general then I would tend to agree, but major college football television contracts and the donations to the universe receives because of football to the athletic fund adds to the general fund instead of subtracting from it.

 

Actually, very little money is actually MADE from even the biggest college football programs. Revenues are huge, but the expenses associated with running a college progam are almost just as big. People need to realize that college athletics are not created to make money.

 

It's impossible for someone to calculate the donations to the school based on what was for a football program or just a general donation, so those numbers shouldn't be included into the equation.

 

Also, I should point out that hardly ever is tuition increased because of a new stadium. For big colleges, the state/city usually gets involved with funding part of it with the remainder of the cost coming from the sale of bonds to investors/alumni.

[Jae Onasi]

collective bargaining was a basic human right.

It never has been a basic human right, and it never should be.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Jae just how much does the football program at a major university (such as Ohio State, Texas or Michigan) take away from the schools general fund? Be honest. Now if you are completely honest then you would know it is nothing, zilch, nada, zilch, zip…. Now if you want to rephrase the remark to athletics in general then I would tend to agree, but major college football television contracts and the donations to the universe receives because of football to the athletic fund adds to the general fund instead of subtracting from it.

 

Gross Revenues 2008 to 2009 school year.

Ohio State $68.19 million Texas $87.5 million

 

Football Expense 2008 to 2009 school year

Ohio State $32.3 million Texas $ 22.5 million

 

Football Profit 2008 to 2009 school year

 

Ohio State $35.89 million Texas $65.00 million

 

Georgia $45.38 million

Florida $43.29 million

Penn State $42.63 million

LSU $39.14 million

Notre Dame $38.18 million

Alabama $38.16 million

Nebraska $37.29 million

South Carolina $37.23 million

 

If you can't tell Ohio State grosses the 2nd most, but 10th in profits because they spend so much more than everyone else. Still it is not taking away from the general fund.

 

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/06/30/for-longhorns-money-grows-on-football-program-instead-of-trees/

Thank you for this post. Football funds most of the other sports programs, thus we have funding for all of the Title IX athletics that are worthy in their goal, but are a giant vacuum for revenue.

 

Uh, no. You can't work as a doctor until you've a. graduated doctor school, b. passed national boards and any state requirements, and c. received your license from the state.

I was not pretending that you could practice medicine without achieving your a,b and c. I also know many medical students land some pretty solid jobs while at university, due either to their connections or their potential, or their brilliance. Sorry you flipped burgers, but so did I and many others. I also did other nasty jobs, just like you.

 

As for the car I drive and the taxes I pay in my current home state.... You can always bail out of Wisconsin! I know many people that are heartbroken at the thought, but are seriously considering it.

 

As for what is wrong with your tax system locally, I agree there is something horribly wrong. Why are all Public Sector employees equally held accountable for this, when it appears that you specifically point out the bus drivers, and I cannot argue that they are overpaid bloated pigs. My friend the Veteran's Home Food Director makes far less than they do, works harder, and is watching his cooks bail on him because they cannot feed a family on the new wage scale. Is he equally guilty of abusing the system, or is he and his staff a victim of bad policy?

 

I was under the belief that the Cops and Fireman bailed on the system because Walker reneged on that portion of their special deal. If that is a mistake on my part, I apologize and tend to agree with you. If they were reneged on, I then reinstate my belief that what they did was right. The government is supposed to be "by the people, for the people" and what Walker did is far less than that. It is our responsibility to ACT (or not act) when the Government is hosing us - it is what the founding fathers wanted expressly.

 

Your assessment of teacher's in secondary education is a little lacking perhaps in experience or perspective. My mother was an English teacher for many years, my Grandmother taught school in a one-room schoolhouse for much of her younger life until teaching in "modern" schools until retirement. Both of those women worked many, many hours at home, which you might consider their just reward for having the spring and summer break. Whether that is right or not, you grossly underestimate how much personal time the teachers of your children do or will spend on the education and betterment of your children. Whether they are succeeding or no is a totally different question, but to simply say they have a cake job is just wrong. And BTW, is Milwaukee some sort of Utopia? I think it is just about as rough as Chicago, and has equally nasty corners.

 

As to my venting, a mirror might be a good thing to look at. I am not saying you are wrong to vent, but if you are venting less than I am, I am a monkey's Uncle.

 

As to what Darth Dan 012 said about collective bargaining, you have misquoted or mistaken his words. I believe, although he was not specific, that he was talking about the typical Republican darling, Ronald "The Gipper" Reagan. Search for his 1980 speech to the Polish people... and you will understand Dan's statement. Whether it is a real "human right" or not is debatable, but again you are telling the forum what should and should not be, rather than making an argument. Is that fair?

[mimartin]

Actually, very little money is actually MADE from even the biggest college football programs.

What do you consider very little money? 65 million or 35.89 million? I guess it all depends on what you consider "very little money" or what you consider "biggest college football programs." By my definition of both, I will stand by my remarks.

It's impossible for someone to calculate the donations to the school based on what was for a football program or just a general donation, so those numbers shouldn't be included into the equation.

It would seem something easily calculated, at least to the two universities and one Junior college I contribute to. The little check mark next to the amount tells the school you want the money to go to be it athletics or academics. I give to academics at the other two schools, but I give to athletic department at the University of Texas so I can get tickets to away football games. (for the record I don't give to the athletic department at the other two schools mainly because they don't have a athletic department.)

[Totenkopf]

but again you are telling the forum what should and should not be, rather than making an argument....

you mean like this:

 

(This BBCode requires its accompanying plugin to work properly.)

[urluckyday]

What do you consider very little money? 65 million or 35.89 million? I guess it all depends on what you consider "very little money" or what you consider "biggest college football programs." By my definition of both, I will stand by my remarks.

 

Those are just revenue numbers. For Ohio State, my sports management teacher calculated their profits over the entire year of football at around $500,000 which is miniscule considering how much money they bring in. It's extremely expensive to run a program like that, and while the revenues may be high, the profits are not.

[mimartin]

Yes they are revenue numbers, but they are net income which means they are after expenses.

 

Ohio State 2008 to 2009

Gross Revenues for Football 68.19 million

Minus Expense for Football 32.3 million

Equals Net Income from football 35.89 million

 

Gross Revnue - Expenses = Net Income

 

What year was he/she talking about? Perhaps Ohio State expensed out stadium expansion or some other high dollar expense that year. Also perhaps he/she meant the athletic department as a whole; then I would agree with him/her. Overall, I do believe most athletic departments either make no profit or very little as a whole. Have no real way to know this last statement as a fact beyond personal observation of going to games. However, my original reply was direct just at college football.

[Jae Onasi]

Thank you for this post. Football funds most of the other sports programs, thus we have funding for all of the Title IX athletics that are worthy in their goal, but are a giant vacuum for revenue.

Yes, yes, I made a flippant comment and suddenly everyone goes nuts over college sports. I take back what I said about football stadiums!

 

I was not pretending that you could practice medicine without achieving your a,b and c. I also know many medical students land some pretty solid jobs while at university, due either to their connections or their potential, or their brilliance.

Riiiiight..... You have some odd assumptions about doctors' backgrounds, like they're all from rich families with political connections out the wazoo. Do some of them have that? Sure. A couple of my classmates had very well off parents who paid their entire way. Great for them. I came neither from a rich family nor a well-connected one. I had no such resources. My dad finished his associate's degree when I was a kid, and he worked full-time while going to school part-time. It was his example that showed me that I could work and go to school, too. Besides, who's really going to hire a college student for a high-paying job when the student has to go to college during the usual workday and has an ever-changing schedule, particularly in the later years of professional school when their schedules literally change every week due to clinical rotations? Try pretty much no one.

 

Sorry you flipped burgers, but so did I and many others. I also did other nasty jobs, just like you.

I didn't say that to evoke your pity or your patronization, nor do I want it. I'm proud of every job I worked at. I learned what it was to do good work in any job (and let's face it, most of us do have to learn 'how to work' in our teens), from McDonald's and housekeeping even--how to work with the public even when they're complete jerks, how to handle money very quickly with 100% accuracy, how to clean up biohazardous waste properly, and other skills that help in my profession now.

 

I pointed it all out to show you that I was a blue-collar female working her ass off to get through school, and that's why I don't have the same level of sympathy for your friend that you do. I didn't have money or connections. Your friend should get off his ass and quit depending on mommy and daddy if he wants his education, too. He became an adult when he was 18. He shouldn't have to depend on mommy and daddy's salaries to fund his schooling, so your argument about mommy and daddy's salary dropping 8% when they've been living high on the hog benefit-wise for years (far, far better than most other states, and far better than most equivalent private sector jobs) does not make me feel sorry for him in the least. His parents might actually be doing him a favor by cutting the apron strings and letting him learn to survive on his own for once.

As for the car I drive and the taxes I pay in my current home state.... You can always bail out of Wisconsin! I know many people that are heartbroken at the thought, but are seriously considering it.

Have you tried to sell a house lately? Aside from that, being within short driving distance of a dad with early dementia, a sister and sister-in-law who both have gone through treatment for cancer means that moving out of the state isn't a viable option right now, unless something truly fantastic came along. And by 'truly fantastic' I mean 'something that would let me fly to and from their homes at any time I wanted whenever they needed me'. Which is not going to happen unless God decides that dropping a few million bucks on my doorstep would be a really cool thing to do.

 

As for what is wrong with your tax system locally, I agree there is something horribly wrong. Why are all Public Sector employees equally held accountable for this, when it appears that you specifically point out the bus drivers, and I cannot argue that they are overpaid bloated pigs. My friend the Veteran's Home Food Director makes far less than they do, works harder, and is watching his cooks bail on him because they cannot feed a family on the new wage scale. Is he equally guilty of abusing the system, or is he and his staff a victim of bad policy?

Have your friend go apply for a cook position, then. He needs a job to fund his education. In fact, let me know where it is, because I know a number of people in my town who are out of work and would love to have any kind of work right now.

The wage scale hasn't even changed yet since the law just got passed and is still kind of in limbo with the restraining orders, so I'm not sure why the cooks are bailing on your Food Director friend.

 

It's not just the bus drivers that are grossly abusing the system, but their abuse was certainly some of the most egregious. Prison workers are also abusing the overtime rules. Some of these people call around to their coworkers and determine who should call in sick that day so the other guys can get their overtime. There are teachers who are so bad at teaching that they're put into 'administrative jobs' because they can't be fired due to union rules. We, the taxpayers, have to pay for that 'administrative job', which means sitting around doing squat all day, because the work rules don't allow the school districts the freedom to get rid of truly awful teachers. Why in the world should I be paying for a bad worker to sit on their butts watching TV all day because some union rules prevent it?

 

Why, as a taxpayer, is it unreasonable for me to ask state workers to help contribute to their own pension funds and their own health insurance?

 

I was under the belief that the Cops and Fireman bailed on the system because Walker reneged on that portion of their special deal. If that is a mistake on my part, I apologize and tend to agree with you. If they were reneged on, I then reinstate my belief that what they did was right.

The cops and firefighters, as far as I know, are specifically excluded from the collective bargaining law. By the way, the unions can still collective bargain on wages. They simply can't bargain anymore on work rules and benefits, and force the state to use a health insurance company that costs the state significantly more for premiums than other health insurance companies charge for the same coverage.

The government is supposed to be "by the people, for the people" and what Walker did is far less than that. It is our responsibility to ACT (or not act) when the Government is hosing us - it is what the founding fathers wanted expressly.

If 'the people', which apparently only means "Democrats" in your lexicon, had gotten off their butts in November and voted for the senators and governor they wanted, the GOP would not have won the overwhelming majority it has now. We live in a democratic republic. Wisconsin voters spoke last November. They wanted someone who wasn't going to be another Doyle.

 

Walker's record in Milwaukee county should have been very clear evidence of how he was going to handle things at the state level. He is a guy who slashes costs. Were WI voters expecting him to roll over for the unions at the state level when he didn't at the Milwaukee county level?

 

Protesting? I have no problem with that. Go for it.

 

Gluing doors shut and doing millions of dollars of damage to the state building? I have a huge problem with that. Protesting is not illegal. Breaking and entering, and destroying property, IS illegal. Intentionally leaving civilians unprotected because a cop wants to support his union brothers and sisters? Illegal and entirely immoral.

Your assessment of teacher's in secondary education is a little lacking perhaps in experience or perspective.

:rofl:

Right, like I never went through the public school system or work with teachers right now while my kids go through school.

 

My mother was an English teacher for many years, my Grandmother taught school in a one-room schoolhouse for much of her younger life until teaching in "modern" schools until retirement. Both of those women worked many, many hours at home, which you might consider their just reward for having the spring and summer break. Whether that is right or not, you grossly underestimate how much personal time the teachers of your children do or will spend on the education and betterment of your children. Whether they are succeeding or no is a totally different question, but to simply say they have a cake job is just wrong.

My mother was an elementary school teacher, too. I have helped out by volunteering in my kids' classroom as time allows. I help out at music events, although not much in the couple years due to all the health problems hammering the entire family. The exceptional teachers may put in long hours. The average ones? Not so much. The poor ones don't care one iota.

 

And BTW, is Milwaukee some sort of Utopia? I think it is just about as rough as Chicago, and has equally nasty corners.

I've lived in Chicago. Milwaukee may have a crap school system and the highest crime in the state, but the city and the school system are not nearly as bad as Chicago.

As to my venting, a mirror might be a good thing to look at. I am not saying you are wrong to vent, but if you are venting less than I am, I am a monkey's Uncle.

I didn't say you weren't venting, nor do I care that you vented. Expecting me to answer what is clearly a vent rather than an argument, is not reasonable, however.

As to what Darth Dan 012 said about collective bargaining, you have misquoted or mistaken his words.

I knew exactly who he was talking about. I also know what Reagan did when the air traffic controllers walked off their jobs. WI teachers and the other state workers who walked off their jobs to go protest are lucky that Walker didn't pull a Gipper on that one.

 

I believe, although he was not specific, that he was talking about the typical Republican darling, Ronald "The Gipper" Reagan. Search for his 1980 speech to the Polish people... and you will understand Dan's statement. Whether it is a real "human right" or not is debatable, but again you are telling the forum what should and should not be, rather than making an argument. Is that fair?

Please. WI is not a communist state like Poland was at that time. The two can't even remotely be compared. That's comparing apples to the spaghetti monster.

[mimartin]

Yes, yes, I made a flippant comment and suddenly everyone goes nuts over college sports. I take back what I said about football stadiums!

Not really, I just used your flippant comment as an excuse to point out to you that the great University of Texas makes more money from football than those cheaters from Ohio.

 

Football in Texas is serious business. We don't joke about football in Texas. Well we don't joke about high school or college football. As to profession football...the Texans are a joke.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

What friend are you talking about? My friend has a BA in Business Admin he received from the U of MN in 1995... And a Chef by trade before working at the Veteran's Home, not a cook. The Food Director is an important position to the Veterans he serves. Actually, who's post were you responding to while trying to make me out for a fool? I am 38, 39 in July, and my friends are grown.

 

The condescension and rhetoric of your post is more laughable than the rolling heads you sent at me. My dialog with you on this subject and any other is over. PM me if you want to continue. Hopefully not.

[Totenkopf]

What friend are you talking about? My friend has a BA in Business Admin he received from the U of MN in 1995... And a Chef by trade before working at the Veteran's Home, not a cook. The Food Director is an important position to the Veterans he serves. Actually, who's post were you responding to while trying to make me out for a fool? I am 38, 39 in July, and my friends are grown.

 

 

I think she meant this one from jawathehutt:

I would say a low percentage. Speaking from personal experience, nearly every education major or major related to education in any way, in addition to droves of actual employees. If you want to hear a nice and personal story, my friend might have to drop out of college thanks to these benefits. Both of his parents are public employees and the pay cuts and benefit cuts are probably going to put an end to his college fund. And he already works and is still having issues. But hey, uneducated simpletons are great for business.

[Tommycat]

Funny enough, Jae generally leans left on most social issues. Perhaps she, living in WI, has a better grasp of how bad the situation is there.

 

And QGG, she has a point. With the economy what it is, I have a hard time believing that he has too much difficulty in finding replacement cooks. Perhaps your friend could give up part of his pay so that his workers can have more. I mean is he paying them less than McDonalds is? What skill level are they looking for. I know quite a few people are looking for jobs right now. Better than 10% of the population is unemployed(I think I heard the "real" unemployment numbers are somewhere near 20%, but I'd have to give enough of a crap to look them up, so I'll just go with over 10%). I'm thinking there's job hunters out there. Heck there were business executives out here applying for a summer job at a water park. It's rough.... Maybe WI is paying too much in unemployment.

 

To be fair QGG you were doing a fair bit of attacking yourself. Your post came off as a bit, "Well you're a doctor, so you can afford to pay up." And having friends who are doctors and driving cars that are actually worse than mine(2004 truck as opposed to their 2000 minivan), I caught what she was saying. The only doctors that end up super wealthy are plastic surgeons. Usually if they have a nice car, they also have a whole bunch of repair bills(or their family already had money to begin with, so they had no school bills)... Keep in mind that the cost of malpractice insurance is still sky high. So on top of taxing them to death, you hit them with insurance that drains them. Then there are a few hefty fees they have to pay either quarterly or anually(Jae could say better, but I am pretty sure WI is pretty well close to the same as AZ)

[mimartin]

 

Please let us get back to the topic at hand.

 

 

Edit by D3: Indeed!

[Point Man]

The people of Wisconsin elected Scott Walker as governor and flipped both houses of the State Assembly in order to get some leaders who would straighten out the budget mess we have. Our state has the second highest per capita debt in the nation, and we already have the fourth highest tax burden. We did not want to issue out IOU's to state employees because we had no money to pay them, like California infamously did a few years back. We also did not want to go the way of Illinois and raise our state income tax 67%.

 

Governor Walker and the Republicans in the State Assembly saw that our current fiscal year was $167 million short. They needed to make up that shortfall with a budget repair bill. Since 60% of our state budget is labor, it is easy to see that you would need to work on that to get some savings.

 

Years of Democratic control had gotten us contracts with labor unions that were far too restrictive to allow any significant reductions. As an example, the Milwaukee Public School system has a contract with the teachers' union that restricts the health insurance choice to the union-provided plan. If the district were to change to the plan state employees have, they could save $67 million a year.

 

That is the main reason we had to reduce collective bargaining among public employees. We had unions taking money from the workers and funneling it into the election campaign funds of Democrats. Those Democrats were then obligated to give the unions bloated contracts or face losing their biggest campaign contributors. By restricting the damage to the state budget from this extortion, we can now actually do the unthinkable and work to reduce our debt.

 

This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. Nobody is taking away any rights. We are restructuring the way contracts are negotiated. The unions raised a huge protest for one reason and one reason only: they stood to lose a large portion of their income. You see, the bill also included provisions that eliminated state collection of union dues and made the payment of union dues voluntary. The union bosses could not stand to have their jobs endangered, so they staged the big protest in the name of "rights." It isn't about rights at all. It's about unions wanting to continue robbing taxpayers to keep themselves in unnecessary jobs.

[Jae Onasi]

I think she meant this one from jawathehutt:

Yep, that one was my mistake for sure. My apologies for Qui-Gon Glenn for accidentally combining the two different posts.

 

Your post came off as a bit, "Well you're a doctor, so you can afford to pay up."

Yes, it sure did come off that way, and that attitude is pervasive. And no, I can't afford to pay up.

 

The biggest question right now is the ruling on whether the bill can be published and whether or not it's law. The Sec'y of State was required to publish it 10 days after passage, but with a variety of court challenges, not surprisingly happening in the courts of extremely liberal Dane County (Madison, WI) judges, he's decided not to move forward. In fact, one judge issued an injunction based on the legislative rules, which is something no WI court has EVER done before, and in fact there were numerous precedents in WI against ruling on legislative rules, since that would mean the judicial branch was infringing on the legislative process. So this one judge just decided arbitrarily to throw all the precedents out the window and go with what she felt like that day (or what the unions were telling her to do....)

 

So, needless to say, right now there is tremendous confusion about the status of the law.

[Jae Onasi]

And yay for unions buying people to come 'protest'. And yay for any other group buying people to come 'protest' for either side. >.<

 

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=270446&id=57082507410#!/photo.php?fbid=10150144325402411&set=a.498428267410.270446.57082507410&theater