Wisconsonian Fascism

[mimartin]

There hasn't been any good or acceptable state-of-affairs for me in regards to government since Obama's halt on drilling in the Gulf. That killed my trust of US government.

For some reason, living on the Texas Gulf Coast, I lost my trust in big oil being prepared about the same time. Maybe it was all the dead fish...

[Working Class Hero]

2 things I've learned form all this:

 

1. All politicians are the same, heartless ****s that all they care about are elections. The behavior by these Republicans to dissolve unions are disgusting. They're using fear and lies to push their agendas.

On the other hand, those democratic congressmen that fled are dumpsterfires. "I don't like what you're doing, so I'm taking my ball and going home."

 

2. Most American people think that involvement ends with elections. Once they vote, they just sit back and do what their masters tell them.

[Tommycat]

Qui-Gon Glenn: You made specific mention of the big money coming in for the candidates on the right, but failed to mention the fact that the unions tended to pay huge gobs of money to the left. As if somehow being supported by national unions rather than national companies was better. Those politicians who fled the state are looking out for their union leader masters. Don't pretend that it's looking out for the little guy. Both sides are protecting their campaign money. plain and simple.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

2 things I've learned form all this:

 

1. All politicians are the same, heartless ****s that all they care about are elections. The behavior by these Republicans to dissolve unions are disgusting. They're using fear and lies to push their agendas.

On the other hand, those democratic congressmen that fled are dumpsterfires. "I don't like what you're doing, so I'm taking my ball and going home."

 

2. Most American people think that involvement ends with elections. Once they vote, they just sit back and do what their masters tell them.

 

[mimartin]

Don't pretend that it's looking out for the little guy.

Teachers are big and evil and have designs on taking over the world through their indoctrination process. If teachers, city, county, state employees are not the little man, then I don’t know who is. Off to ask the garbage man for a loan…

[Tommycat]

Teachers are big and evil and have designs on taking over the world through their indoctrination process. If teachers, city, county, state employees are not the little man, then I don’t know who is. Off to ask the garbage man for a loan…

 

Hogwash. They're protecting the UNIONS, not the little guys. Those same unions that give us 50 layers of management pay before you get to the teachers.

[mimartin]

Yeah, it is all bunk that a Teachers Union represents teachers... Guess all those people protesting and being interviewed on TV are the 50 layers of management or were they hired by the 50 layers of management to play a part.

 

Since you are an accomplished mind reader that knows all about people’s motivations, please let me know what is really going on among Middle East leaders. I’m thinking of buying some futures and knowing what they are thinking would be an extreme help.

 

One more Question; So is Scott Walker's motivation the same as those "not looking out for the little guy," is he protecting the Unions and 50 layers of management by protecting the Firefighter and Police Union?

[Tommycat]

Yeah, it is all bunk that a Teachers Union represents teachers... Guess all those people protesting and being interviewed on TV are the 50 layers of management or were they hired by the 50 layers of management to play a part.

 

Since you are an accomplished mind reader that knows all about people’s motivations, please let me know what is really going on among Middle East leaders. I’m thinking of buying some futures and knowing what they are thinking would be an extreme help.

 

One more Question; So is Scott Walker's motivation the same as those "not looking out for the little guy," is he protecting the Unions and 50 layers of management by protecting the Firefighter and Police Union?

 

Pretty much. The teachers are the last ones to get a piece of the budget pie given to education. Those above them are also in the union. Despite having the highest per student spending, we're still below some third world countries in student achievement. I attribute that to wasted spending.

 

As for Scott Walker. I put him on the same level. He's looking out for his campaign money.

[Totenkopf]

Well, I guess civility has returned to it's normal levels....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, it's interesting to note that as important as collective bargaining has been alleged to be, unionized fed workers have far less latitude than their state counterparts. Perhaps the protestors should seek to remedy that....

[mimartin]

Also, it's interesting to note that as important as collective bargaining has been alleged to be, unionized fed workers have far less latitude than their state counterparts.

 

Is that all all Feberal Workers are just some of them? Unlike Scott Walker I seem to remember Ronald Reagan holding them all to the same level of the law, when he fired the Air Traffic Controllers for refusing to return to work even though they had endorsed him in the 1980 election. He did not pick and choice like Scott Walker seems to be doing. Oh, and there were protest then too.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

in all fairness reagan could have simply forgotten their endorsement of him

[Totenkopf]

No, I mean that the range of things that fed unions can collectively bargain over are more limited than what you get in states, esp WI. Not really surprising, though, when you consider the feds overall track record w/its own regulations and putting themselves above the laws/agencies they often create and straight-jacket the private sector with.

 

Unlike Scott Walker I seem to remember Ronald Reagan holding them all to the same level of the law, when he fired the Air Traffic Controllers for refusing to return to work even though they had endorsed him in the 1980 election

 

Well, at least he didn't play favorites. And it wasn't like he didn't give them a chance to return to work before dropping the hammer.

[mimartin]

No, I mean that the range of things that fed unions can collectively bargain over are more limited than what you get in states, esp WI.

 

Apples and Oranges… If the thread was about a Federal Union, then you would have a point if there were different laws/rules governing different federal unions’ rights, but the thread isn’t about that. In this case the governor is saying the state police union and state firefighters union have one set of rules to play by when dealing with the state and every other state union has a different set of rules. Like I wrote before I would not have much of a problem with this and would believe it was more than a political stunt if he were doing it across the board instead of picking and choosing.

[Totenkopf]

Frankly, much of your spiel was about how collective bargaining was essential, even mischaracterizing what Walker was attempting. Not a case of apples and oranges, but merely pointing out that what was being disscussed was not an outlawing of govt unions (see police and fire fighters as you've pointed out) or somesuch, but merely a case of restricting the scope of collective bargaining. The fed govt example was merely an illustration of scope. I will grant your point, however, that consistency would be nice. Not so sure you'd approve of his doing it to everyone, given your earlier rhetoric about the necessity of apparently unrestricted collective bargaining for a union to have any meaning.

 

my only real bother by the entire thing is the governor not including all the state employees in this and the fact that it includes future collective bargaining agreements, but only in certain areas.

 

Well the governor is pretty much outlawing unions. Not much point in a union without collective bargaining.

 

Without collective bargaining there is no union, it isn’t cutting off their legs; it is cutting off their head.

 

So, just how unrestricted should collective bargaining "rights" be?

[mimartin]

......

If he were doing it to everyone, then I would have no problem with it. End of Story.

 

Limiting what is allowed to be negotiated in a labor contract is weakening the union. So I can understand cutting pay and benefits now with the state budget and economy where it is, but I do have a problem with limiting those rights in the future when the state budget may be great and the economy is doing great.

 

They should be the same across the board for all the same level employees. So Texas should have the same rules for all state employees and the federal government should have the same rules for all federal employees. The federal government should not mandate that states use the same rules as the federal government when it comes to how it treats its unionized workers.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

@LoH - the link provided was a definition of the term. Check Miriam Webster or American College or whatever dictionary you like... A word means what a word means, and I don't need a wikipedia article to define my point... just a term so that we know what a term means. I provided it so you would know what fascism is. Thanks for your normal response.

 

As for the term "radical" thank you for engaging in meaningless semantics. Cleverness /= thinking.

 

@Tommycat: Yes, being supported by Unions is far superior to being supported by business. A Union is a body, representing a large group who share the same opinion. A business is generally a couple of stuffed suits. Your point is totally lost on me... And again, I am not saying that unionization is devoid of evil.

 

I am curious what you do for a living.... and why teachers and Veteran's Home workers are unimportant to you. Those folks are Union too.... how are you dividing this?

 

@Totenkopf: I think you are under the assumption that I am a Democrat. Uh, no. Voted for Ron Paul.

Could you provide an example of these 50 layers of management pay? What Unions are you talking about, and are you aware of the diversity of unions?

 

@Det. Bart Lassiter: The Reagan comment was brilliant. Thank you for levity!

 

They should be the same across the board for all the same level employees. So Texas should have the same rules for all state employees and the federal government should have the same rules for all federal employees. The federal government should not mandate that states use the same rules as the federal government.

The bold part could not be stated better. Texas should have seceded. I wish that State governments would start discussing the idea of secession more and openly... the Federal government no longer represents anyone other than Big Business.

[mimartin]

The bold part could not be stated better.

Fixed

Texas should have seceded.

Did not work out real well for us the last time we did it. Plus we need someone with 2 brain cells as governor before we tried. If Sarah Palin is running against Rick Perry in the Republican Primary for President, I'm voting for Palin twice. Compared to him she has a PHD in intelligence. She may not know what magazines she reads or that Africa is a continent, but I’d be surprised he knew what a magazine was or there was even an Africa.

[Lord of Hunger]

@LoH - the link provided was a definition of the term. Check Miriam Webster or American College or whatever dictionary you like... A word means what a word means, and I don't need a wikipedia article to define my point... just a term so that we know what a term means. I provided it so you would know what fascism is. Thanks for your normal response.

And instead of actually making your point you assume ignorance on my side. I am perfectly familiar with fascism. I extensively studied the WWII-era while my classmates were screwing off in middle and high school. Studying socio-political phenomena is one of my hobbies, and currently the subject of my university electives.

As for the term "radical" thank you for engaging in meaningless semantics. Cleverness /= thinking.

Meaningless semantics? If you don't want to bring up a point of discussion and actually discuss it, don't bring it up.

[Totenkopf]

@Totenkopf: I think you are under the assumption that I am a Democrat. Uh, no. Voted for Ron Paul.

 

No, didn't know what you were. Just figured you were very pro-union based on your posts. Given that you work in the entertainment field, thinking dem may seem a no-brainer, but didn't go there. The dem/pro-union connection might be a natural assumption, but well aware that not all union supporters are dems.

 

Could you provide an example of these 50 layers of management pay? What Unions are you talking about, and are you aware of the diversity of unions?

 

That wasn't mine. That was mim vs TC.

 

The federal government should not mandate that states use the same rules as the federal government when it comes to how it treats its unionized workers.

 

Never said they should.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

And instead of actually making your point you assume ignorance on my side. I am perfectly familiar with fascism. I extensively studied the WWII-era while my classmates were screwing off in middle and high school. Studying socio-political phenomena is one of my hobbies, and currently the subject of my university electives.

 

Meaningless semantics? If you don't want to bring up a point of discussion and actually discuss it, don't bring it up.

I assume nothing on your part... well not exactly true, but I prefer to be nice.

 

Do you dispute my use of the term "fascism"? Have I used the word incorrectly? Perhaps it is a bit of hyperbole, but by definition the actions of the WI governor have been.... Fascist.

 

As for the "radical" point, I fail to see why you have chosen my admittedly (see post #23) hair-brained and wholly least important part of my OP, and think that you can hammer something home on it when it really has nothing to do at all with the main argument? This is a bit of a straw-man attempt, as it is unimportant to the main issue. If you want to debate how American's improperly use the term "radical right" or "radical left" or "radical" anything, start your own thread on the topic! The way I used the term is understood by most Americans. If it is used improperly, oh well, that is the vernacular of the day.

 

I am impressed by how much you studied WW2 in middle and HS. I am not impressed yet by your ability to ferret out the argument, although with your intelligence, you will someday. I recommend taking some Logic courses at University... Like I did when I went to college in 1990.

 

@Totenkopf: I lean left, but I choose no party. I am pro-Union because my Union does help me make a good living. The work I do is fairly well compensated, but the risk and nature of the work deserve that compensation. I deal with BIG power, stuff that will literally fry a man. As a result, I constantly have to remember proper habits... one misstep, and POOF.

 

Sorry that I took a part of someone else's argument and put it on you... should have read more carefully!

[mimartin]

That wasn't mine. That was mim vs TC.

Don't look at me; I just repeated Tommycat’s description.

[Totenkopf]

That's why I didn't just say mim. But, QGG figured it out.

 

@Totenkopf: I lean left, but I choose no party. I am pro-Union because my Union does help me make a good living. The work I do is fairly well compensated, but the risk and nature of the work deserve that compensation. I deal with BIG power, stuff that will literally fry a man. As a result, I constantly have to remember proper habits... one misstep, and POOF.

 

Sorry that I took a part of someone else's argument and put it on you... should have read more carefully!

 

No problem. Ever work on any Charlie Sheen projects? Talk about a loose cannon....

[Lord of Hunger]

I assume nothing on your part... well not exactly true, but I prefer to be nice.

 

Do you dispute my use of the term "fascism"? Have I used the word incorrectly? Perhaps it is a bit of hyperbole, but by definition the actions of the WI governor have been.... Fascist.

Okay, I see the basis upon which you make the comparison but it is pretty that: hyperbole. The governor and other Republicans might have forced their way around, but that's hardly fascism.

As for the "radical" point, I fail to see why you have chosen my admittedly (see post #23) hair-brained and wholly least important part of my OP, and think that you can hammer something home on it when it really has nothing to do at all with the main argument? This is a bit of a straw-man attempt, as it is unimportant to the main issue. If you want to debate how American's improperly use the term "radical right" or "radical left" or "radical" anything, start your own thread on the topic! The way I used the term is understood by most Americans. If it is used improperly, oh well, that is the vernacular of the day.

I could argue this, but there's not much point.

I am impressed by how much you studied WW2 in middle and HS. I am not impressed yet by your ability to ferret out the argument, although with your intelligence, you will someday. I recommend taking some Logic courses at University... Like I did when I went to college in 1990.

Wow, a compliment! Thank you, I'd be taking some logic and more philosophy classes right now if the registration system at my university wasn't so stretched out.

[Darth Avlectus]

I will provide a source, although your later complaint about writing heads seems you hold writers in equal or less esteem Keith Olbermann etc

 

DAMMIT GLENN, YOU'RE THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD! GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY YOU RIGHT WING TERRORIST!!!!!!~111!!!!1!!!1!1!!

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

This is why you got the jester badge

 

I liked KO much better when he was talking about NFL football and the WNBA. Any sport topic actually; he is a smart and funny guy, until he turns on the political hyperbole. Just wanted to show how FAIR and BALANCED I am.

 

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