Newbian, we've got lotsa dat!

[ReAcToR]

I'm curious as to what type of learning curve you folks think should be in Jedi Knight II. I've seen a few other topics where people have been discussing ideas about splash weapons being implemented to allow newbies to have a fighting chance against the more skilled players. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with this, but chances are, the newbies wouldn't be the ones who are going to be carrying the high-powered weapons. The more skilled players will certainly control all the powerful items, as we see in most games.

 

I'm more for a very steep learning curve in both singleplayer and multiplayer. I want a game that takes months-years to master, as we had with Jedi Knight. Jedi Knight probably had the largest gap between experts and newbies than any other game in history. You not only could beat your opponent badly, but you were actually able to knock them well into the negatives. This made way for a huge gap between skill-levels, and made the game far more interesting.

[Ki-Adi-Mundi]

One could also argue that this discouraged new comers to the game because it would take them so long to be any good to actually stay alive in a game so they wouldn't play it. But I'm not going to do that.

 

I think months to master would be better than years to master. By the time you finally mastered it, it wouldn't matter if it takes years.

[KillerBee]

The learning curve for online games really never stops. JK has been developing for 4 years.

 

JKs tho is steep. a few extra tricks = a ton of extra kills. This is fun for people who like to learn games and find games dull when mastered.

But for the average newbie its annoying.

in q3 its relativly easy to get a gun, its relatively slow, and its quite hard to be spawn fraged on most levels. So the newbie even if he doesn't have a real chance, gets a gun atleast. Newbies in jk ff co rarely move 30cm from a spawn point. seeing means we know where they are, the fact item timing in jk is incredibly important means that they even if they last will rarely get a gun, and player speeds means that a player who can move well can be anywhere in very little time, meaning the newbie basher is over them like a rash in no time.

 

However the speed, the item controlling make the game at higher levels, with equal players MUCH more interesting.

 

I for one love jks control aspect.. if only the surges just replaced 100% mana, instead of infinite for 20 secs so you would need better mana control and the guy timing them wouldnt have a massive advantage imo it would be perfect. JKs weapons and major power ups can be taken in different ways, which leads to great tactics in mp, eg a guy timing surge who is running low on health cause the other guy is timing the vest bactas etc. can pick up a surge, then when it runs out not go to the surge tunnel.

The other guy on seeing him not going for the surge might try to get it quick, ruining his timing, allowing the other guy to collect the vest and bacta, and then return to the surge when it spawns again. he wont of sacraficed a surge to get the bacta etc. the other guy will have lost control of it.

(hmm that makes sense.. )

 

Seeing is also great, it allows for the player to control items and people better. and for 2 players of equal skill it makes ambushing and hiding harder to achieve which imo is good. (it also removes camping almost)

But JKs speed imo isn't all that important. the fluidity and 3dimensionality is far more important to me. I would gladly sacrafice JKs speed for the ability to control weapons say (in q3 5 sec spawns on the guns annoys me.. I want to stop that nightmare rail everytime bot from aquiring one..) and seeing + map.

(hopefully jump is taken for granted as being in jk2)

[CaptainRAVE]

Lets hope when they give us difficulty settings in the game hard means hard and isnt as easy as in Jedi Knight!!!!!!!!!

[KillerBee]

I think he mainly meant mp.. SP fps are always going to be piss easy

[Kwup]

Just have bots for the newbies, worked for UT

[Wilhuf]

I'm all for a learning curve so that as you play the game more, you learn more tricks and nuances. A reward for sticking with the game. That's the fun stuff.

 

I've been vocal about making the game 'newbie-friendly' because many of the people I've introduced to Jedi Knight didn't like how they got whooped by more experienced players.

 

So, what to do about that?

• Include bots, as was suggested so that people can cut their teeth on them.
  
• Make powerful weapons that will at least give the inexperienced a shot at making the occasional kill against an experienced player.
  
• Reduce the tempo by reducing the speed of Force Speed
  
• Eliminate redundant force powers such as destruct (which is really just a glmorized concussion blast) to simplify the game.
  

 

Doing these things will not change the learning curve. They will simply make the game more accessible to newcomers.

[Ki-Adi-Mundi]

You could replace force destruct with force blast. It makes everyone (maybe even you) shoot off in different directions, like force push, but for more than one person, it also has the same effect force destruct does, but this time there is not hurt from teh blast, just the impact.

 

Bots are a must.

 

Guess what. We will all be newbies when the game comes out. Know why? There won't be any experianced players for us to be compared to. Therefore everyone will be a n3wb when the game comes out. How long you are a n3wb is your choice.

[wardz]

Thats a good point, I think we should all forget about 'newbies.' We had this debate at JK.net and it got quite heated, we ARE all going to be new and the skills we learned from JK are not going to count for that much really, although they may help to start with...

 

wardz

[KillerBee]

Well thinking long term here, JK was pretty tough for new players to get into. true we will all be new players, growing up a newbie and learning the game when there are plenty of people around at similar levels as most of us will, will be fun.. its when that stage is over.. personally I like a long learning curve. I actually Like being newbie bashed tho JK got the most boring for me when my targets started leaving, people like death, the people I set my aspirations to beat.

[Ki-Adi-Mundi]

That last part doesn't really make any sense KillerBee.

 

I will like not having anyone who is has l33t skillz to come in a game and start killing everyone. That won't happen for a few months. hehe At least i hope it won't. Maybe the devs from Raven won't decide to drop in on a game and own everyone. If they actually played it that much that is.

[wardz]

I actually Like being newbie bashed tho

you pervert!

 

 

wardz

[Visac]

I think a game like Jedi Outcast (as JK did) will also be bought by people who don´t play 3D-Shooters generally.

The Star Wars aspect of the game will be one of the main reasons to buy this game. So, some "newbies" may play a real "shooter" the first time, because its Star Wars, not a shooter.

People used to play Quake, UT etc... will beat these people in the beginning. But we have to show these "newbies" how to play a shooter and let them be a part of our community.

 

Amen.

 

Visac

[TornSoul]

Originally posted by Visac:

<STRONG>People used to play Quake, UT etc... will beat these people in the beginning. But we have to show these "newbies" how to play a shooter and let them be a part of our community.

</STRONG>

 

People used to play Quake, UT etc don't know what to do with a saber

[MegaMonkey]

I also hope that JediKnight II will clear the table and bring something so new and complex before your eyes that even you will feel newbies once again ( what a wonderful feeling ).

 

I haven't had the chances to play Jedi Knight a lot, and definetely not in internet - but i will buy Jedi Knight II instantly when it comes out and probably give the multiplayer a try.

 

The learning curve should more like be months, as years is too long and could scare many players away. Not every human being own long nerves

[ed_silvergun]

I think map design is one area where newbies can be helped out immeasurably. Include (for the experts) a number of more complex maps, which require advanced techniques, such as:

• Good knowledge of the map
  
• Some knowledge of item respawn times
  
• Good situational awareness: maps built on multiple levels so that looking up/down is necessary
  
• Different hazardous environments, such as water, lava etc.
  
• Some booby-traps, like the lightning in Canyon Oasis
  
• A wide variety of items, weapons and power-ups

 

By contrast provide simpler maps for the newbies, which take less time to master due to:

• Simple layout, which requires minimal knowledge of the map
  
• Less weapons/power-ups and less powerful weapons
  
• All on one level, so that use of mouselook is not necessary
  
• No unpleasant surprises like water, lava or lightning

 

I am firmly of the opinion that decent map design can allow newbies to be "eased in" to the feel of the game, whilst more advanced players can be allowed to skip the basic maps and move on to greater challenges. Both Quake III and Unreal Tournament did this quite successfully.

[Kwup]

I remember UT....it was great at first, everyone figured the Rocket Launcher was king. It could only be stopped by a someone who could effectively do a shockcombo. Then in the coming months, everyone started using the Shockcombo, if you didn't you were toast, the same goes for if you were plagued with bad latency. Now, the only way you can win is if you can do a shockcombo every shot and know every map like the back of your hand. Even then, you can still be owned by someone camping the spawns. What's the moral of the story? Learning Curve = good, but not too much or newbies will not have a chance and vets will all be equals, making the game rather stale.

[GonkH8er]

hrmmm newbie bashing..... is that what they call it these days

 

 

but seriously, i think most of us here shouldnt have to worry about being labelled newbies. for the first few months everyone will be a newbie, and it looks as though us guys here will be THE people in those first few months. by the time people start labelling others 'newbies', we should be 'tee yuu double eff' TUFF

[ReAcToR]

One could also argue that this discouraged new comers to the game because it would take them so long to be any good to actually stay alive in a game so they wouldn't play it.

 

Personally, these are the people that I don't want to be flooding into the JKII community. They already plague the JK community and if they don't want to take the time to learn like the rest of us, maybe they should go play Nintendo. I'm glad that this game will have dedicated servers, and hopefully everyone will have to vote someone out, instead of just some newbian saying "ReAcToR HaX - Boot Him!"

 

Just have bots for the newbies, worked for UT

 

LoL! You've already solved the problem.

 

Guess what. We will all be newbies when the game comes out. Know why? There won't be any experianced players for us to be compared to. Therefore everyone will be a n3wb when the game comes out. How long you are a n3wb is your choice.

 

That all depends on the game itself. If there is alot of guns and aiming required, alot of us will break out of that newbie phase within days. The same could be said about movement and item control. It only takes a few hours to learn hot the spawn-times will work. Those of us who are experienced FPS players, just might be up into intermediate status within a week. Just depends on how the game works out.

 

Maybe the devs from Raven won't decide to drop in on a game and own everyone.

 

OoOo I would love the chance to slap around a Raven employee. If there is force speed in the game, bring along Stephen Shaw, I'll show him a thing of two.

 

People used to play Quake, UT etc... will beat these people in the beginning. But we have to show these "newbies" how to play a shooter and let them be a part of our community.

 

Amen indeed. The interesting thing about JKII will be how easily we will distinguish cheaters in MP. People won't be able to just download cogs when they suck, they will have to learn to play like the rest of us. Muhahaha!

 

People used to play Quake, UT etc don't know what to do with a saber

 

But people who used a Saber may not know what to do with a gun. Besides, I'm still hoping that the weapons will be balanced, instead of just having some Saberist running around blocking everything without even trying. Aiming is something that carries over into new games, at least for the most part).

 

I also hope that JediKnight II will clear the table and bring something so new and complex before your eyes that even you will feel newbies once again ( what a wonderful feeling).

 

I agree. Being a newbie was always the most fun. I hope that there are things in this game that are so new that everyone will be a newbie with it.

 

I am firmly of the opinion that decent map design can allow newbies to be "eased in" to the feel of the game, whilst more advanced players can be allowed to skip the basic maps and move on to greater challenges. Both Quake III and Unreal Tournament did this quite successfully.

 

Good point. It would definitely be a good thing to have special maps for new players, that will teach them the basics.

 

Although alot of skills will carry over into JKII, I am hoping that it will have enough innovation to keep us experienced FPSers on our toes. I love the idea of being a newbie again, but hope that the learning curve is very steep, so after all those long hours of training, we will feel our reward.

[GonkH8er]

Originally posted by ReAcToR:

<STRONG>

 

Good point. It would definitely be a good thing to have special maps for new players, that will teach them the basics.

 

</STRONG>

 

 

lol special newb maps.... 'i can smell a CO remake coming on '

[KillerBee]

Isn't ji for newbies, jedi infancy or something

 

CO is really a very small and simple map..

T4 from q3 also.. which was (until they removed underfloor damage) quite good for torunies..

small maps just end up as the good 1 v 1 maps..

 

btw what part didn't make sense?

the I like being newbie bashed, cause it meant there was still stuff to learn part?

[Wilhuf]

Personally, these are the people that I don't want to be flooding into the JKII community. They already plague the JK community and if they don't want to take the time to learn like the rest of us, maybe they should go play Nintendo. I'm glad that this game will have dedicated servers, and hopefully everyone will have to vote someone out, instead of just some newbian saying "ReAcToR HaX - Boot Him!"

 

Fortunately, not all newcomers will instantly accuse someone of 'haX0ring.' We should be welcoming newcomers. Not humiliating them to the point where they think we are cheating. This happens on the Zone all of the time.

 

[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

[ed_silvergun]

Agreed. The JK and JK II community shouldn't be made into some sort of exclusive club. Multi-player gaming is a social activity and should be open to everyone.

 

Edit: didn't read right first time.

 

[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: ed_silvergun ]

[Kwup]

I lub §e><0RiNg

[wardz]

The older more experienced JK players will have an advantage due to coordination gained from JK and MOTS, but that is where it will end, we don't know how the game setup will work, we are all going to be new, whats the big deal about being a newbie, like some people have said, thats the best part where you are learning about the game and how best to deal with the enemies...

 

 

wardz