Duel Strategy

[poomba]

> You claim that "sometimes" blue and yellow stance are more effective than

> red, and all I want to hear is some good examples of when.

 

Lemme start by saying that as a rule of thumb I tend to use red most often and I consider it my default stance. Now why on earth would I ever switch to yellow or blue? It's also decent against kick spammers, althought the timing can be tricky...

 

Well, I have to admit that I don't go to blue all that often, mostly because of the range issue. Mainly I'll just switch to it every once in a while and take a couple quick swings or do a lunge in order to keep my opponent guessing.

 

Yellow, on the other hand, I use quite often. It's great for getting a quick hit in when someone's recovering from a missed DFA. On a map like duel_bay or duel_carbon I tend to use yellow as my default and switch to red for the occasional strike. One of red's drawbacks is that it does have a considerable recovery period, which can make using it on ledges and other tight situations tough since you need to be able to manuever(sp?) out of harms reach while recovering. The ledges in duel_hangar are a good example of this. So, in these situations I tend to use yellow as my default and throw in some reds and an occasional blue attack. There's also the yellow special, which I don't think I have to explain why one might want to use that every now and then.., especially against crouch campers and assfighters. And then there's the main reason I would switch to yellow.., to keep my opponent guessing. (Similar reason as for blue, I just prefer yellow for this purpose.) I can't stress this enough. Even if it's only for a couple of swings before switching back to red, the surprise factor will still serve to confuse my opponent. I can usually score a quick hit because he didn't think I could strike that quickly and it will make it tougher for him to time his attacks because he doesn't know how quickly I'll be able to react.

 

I could go on... but hopefully I've made my point. Why would I ever want to switch to yellow or blue you ask? Simple answer.., to keep you on your toes.

 

'nuff said...

 

--poomba

[MadJackMcJack]

Why I use blue? It can be used to hammer an opponent using only red stance. Roll around, get behind them, hit, and withdraw. By the time their hit gets going, you've moved out of the way. Just be careful not to get hit.

 

Why I use yellow? If someone is constanly moving, red won't do (see above). Use yellow for speed and range, and sweep to connect. If they backslash, use the special to jump up and hit them (requires GREAT timing. I've only done it once).

 

Why I use red? To make my opponent think I like it

[Xzzy]

> It's great for getting a quick hit in when someone's

> recovering from a missed DFA.

 

See, now that was what I was after. Way back when before I'd forced myself to learn the red stance timing I did this a lot with yellow, but had forgotten it after starting to favor red.

 

I think these days my preferred DFA-counter is to kick.. has a chance to knock them down and open up new opportunities.

 

But the yellow stance probably requires less precision timing.

 

> Roll around, get behind them, hit, and withdraw.

 

My observational experience suggests that this only works against unskilled players. Sometimes you'll be able to snag a lucky hit on a better duelist, but it's rare. Most skilled people know that blue has nearly zero chance to break through red's defences, so if they're smart, they just stand there and parry blows until the blue stancer breaks off.

 

Whatever works though, I guess, and if you repeat the blue stance spam enough I guess you'll wear down a red.. provided he doesn't lop yer head off first.

[poomba]

> I think these days my preferred DFA-counter is to kick.. has a chance to knock

> them down and open up new opportunities.

 

for the yellow dfa/finisher/whatever I love to send 'em flying with a kick. for the red dfa that's tougher to pull off... but what if kick is not enabled or frowned upon by the admin?

 

Here's another one for ya... saberlocks. Now, if I win and my opponent falls I usually just back off a few steps and let them get up. Personal preference... I prefer to win as a result of my saber skills and not by taking advantage of a knockdown. But if it's a tie and noone falls there's a great opportunity to use blue and get some quick hits(or a lunge) in. or even a yellow DFA. but you don't really wanna be in red after you break, at least I don't...

 

Still though, although examples like these are specific situations where you may want to use something other than red I must stress that IMHO you shouldn't limit using them to only these situations. Don't understimate the benifit of switching to yellow every once in a while (I usually switch to yellow once every minute or so, just for a few seconds...) just for the heck of it... Not only do you have a good chance of scoring a hit due to the suprise factor (wait, how'd he hit me so fast, I thought he was using red...), but you've also just given him something to think about.

 

gl...

 

--poomba

[MadJackMcJack]

Originally posted by Xzzy

so if they're smart, they just stand there and parry blows until the blue stancer breaks off.

 

That's where changing stances works. Run at them, change mid-run, and hit them with a heavier attack.

[thehomicidalegg]

i believe you cant change stances mid run or attack even if your HUD says you are using a differnet stance.

[MadJackMcJack]

Bull! I've done it plenty of times. Try it!

[Ken Kasanagi]

yep changing stances goes a long way in duels

 

but instead of bragging on how good a certain stance is, mayb we should start thinking about there weaknesses, sure is great to slab on red stance and play defence then use those "timed slashes" that only skill full masters have, but really against a GOOD blue player wat's the chance of that timed shot? he/she will be running, rolling and jumping around like a headless chicken, and their whole plan is not to hit u wif a combo, they just hit you once the moment u decide to take a sloowww swing at them then roll back outta harms way, it'll take them longer to kill you then for u to kill them, but its kinda hard when u cant even hit them at all, call me stupid but i hardly use red stance coz of these hit and run ppl, and did i mention saber throw.....blah blah blah........etcetc...u all heard it b4

 

yellow is in da middle of no where, its defence is not enough against a blue player, and trading hits against a red is like spending money to buy tetris in a bargain bin.......

DFA is good, but if thats the only good thing yellow has for it then why bother?

 

blue, the time it takes to kill sum1 in this is enough for a ur opponent to commit suicide, just so he can stop waiting for u to hit him/her....

lunge is alrite, if ur opponent is brain dead and doesn't move, its hits one direction and gives enough time for ur opponent to run around u in circles 3 times.....

 

wif all this weakness how can u stick to one style or claim a certain style to be on top of the others?

[Mallakai]

I agree with using different stances based on the situation. I usualy start off with heavy, but then base my attacks on what my opponent is doing. If they are using heavy, I either try to out-heavy them or use med. to jump in for quick hits when they are exposed. I rarely use blue, only for lunges. Alternate between red/yellow.

[leXX]

I think the main point here is that using one stance alone whether it be blue, yellow or red makes you extremely predictable however good you may be. Yes you may win the first few fights, yes you may be very skilled and have the timing perfect but eventually it will be adapted to because of it's predictability. This is why I say a combination of all stances works best based on the oppositions style. Using a combination of stances make you unpredictable and unpredictability means surprise. Surprise is your best weapon.

[Xzzy]

Originally posted by thehomicidalegg

i believe you cant change stances mid run or attack even if your HUD says you are using a differnet stance.

 

The stance changes, but you won't start doing attacks in the new stance until you let go of attack and let your current attack animation complete.

 

Test it on a private server, run around in red doing the overhead chop then switch to blue without releasing attack. Your swings remain slow until you release attack and wait for the animation to finish.

[Xzzy]

Originally posted by lexx

I think the main point here is that using one stance alone whether it be blue, yellow or red makes you extremely predictable however good you may be.

 

And my argument is that if a player is sufficiently skilled, predictability is also an asset.

 

This is why (getting back to the start of the debate) hiding the stance you're using makes no difference. Granted good timing and quick reactions, a good player will be able to come out on top no matter what they reveal to their enemy.

 

Am I that skilled, no, but I'm trying to be.

[leXX]

originally posted by Xzzy

And my argument is that if a player is sufficiently skilled, predictability is also an asset.

 

Predictability is never an asset.

[Xzzy]

Making your opponent think you're predictable is though, which is much the same thing.

 

Lull them into being lazy and you make it easier to pull out a "secret weapon" that brings you out on top.

 

eg, you do red stand left+attack a dozen times in a row. Opponent starts to notice this and lays out where you'll be, and attempts a backstab or a yellow DFA. Except that time you went right instead, and get in a free hit because their back is turned to you.

[Twins of Doom]

In other words: Blue is for people too unskilled to control their saber. Yellow is for people who haven't learned how to time red swings. Red is for people who will win.

 

no, using only one is for the people who are going to lose

 

surprise is the best tactic

 

you should switch stances throughout a fight to surprise your opponent, don't just use one stance, use them all

 

factor in the

number of attacks that can be chained together

heavy: 3

medium: 5

light: infinite

 

average damage

heavy: 60 to one hit kill

medium: 30-40

light: 20-25

 

speed:

heavy: slow

medium: average

light: fast

 

use all the stances, not just one

 

if you are using heavy stance ONLY i'll find you an easy kill because you don't surprise me, there is only so many moves you can do

if you use all the attacks there are a LOT more moves you can do, and you will be less predictable

[leXX]

Lull them into being lazy and you make it easier to pull out a "secret weapon" that brings you out on top.

 

People who use all the stance are not lazy...that's the whole point!

[C'jais]

Ahem... sorry to bring this thread up again, but lexx just showed it to me - and I wish to comment:

 

I use pretty much only yellow stance, with a few red strikes for good measure and a few rare lunges when it's called for. I love playing against "red wh*res" with my yellow, because that's where I wish to excel and it is good timing training. The key is being aggressive *just* when that red slash is pointing away from you. It sounds simple (and it is), but it works. It's a long waiting game, but it is always possible. Dodge, attack, dodge.

 

I use yellow for range and speed: red has a somewhat shorter range if you factor in that you move a lot slower, and it's nowhere near as fast. Blue is too uncontrollable for me, it might be terrific for someone, but it doesn't suit me with its 3" range.

 

I am by no means a master of yellow, but I'd just like to say that it is *quite* possible to beat a very skilled red user -ask Twins and his crew. Of course I don't win each time I play against a skilled red user, but i definately don't get completely crushed.

 

All the stances can be wielded skillfully and no stance is per definition better - some are easier to get good at, but they all have their flaws. IMHO, I just think that yellow has fewer flaws when it comes down to it - range and speed, not power.

[Xzzy]

I guess so, I'd still say that overall red ends up being best. Not that other stances can't beat it, just that if you were stranded on a desert island with just one stance, red is the one you'd want.

 

I've been forcing myself to experiment with the other stances based on this thread.. blue still seems useless, but I will concede that yellow can do well against a red stance player.

[C'jais]

Well, and that is my point:

 

Different players prefer different stances. And all stances can be very deadly when wielded correctly. You could argue that you kill easier with some stances and that that makes them easier to wield correctly, but I, personally, wouldn't say so.

 

Take blue stance fx, I am completely sh*t with that thing, and I find that I have no control whatsoevah when doing the blue stance. Others may find that they can time their attacks very skillfully when using that stance. That the majority of jk2 players use the blue stance liberally, doesn't mean that it s*cks or that it's a godsend. Same thing with skilled red users.

 

Since I rarely change beyond my trusted yellow in a match versus a very skilled opponent, one could argue that that makes me a bad player. And I agree, I should change stances more, but sticking to one stance does the kills for me. Whatever makes your day.

 

I am certain that the blue stance could do well against a red user, but I just can't do it.

 

Hmmm... an interesting point is that the different stances cost different amounts of force points to purchase. Since red is the most expensive, is it then also the best? Vice versa for blue?

I wouldn't say so, the more points you pump into saber attack, the more attacks you get. More points= a larger arsenal of attacks. It could also be that the red stance is easier, more powerful, for beginners to wield. I don't know about that one though.

[C'jais]

*bump*

 

I'd like to get some comments BTW....

[teutonicknight]

Grr... I typed up my post, then I aciddently hit something on my keyboard, making my window close before I could send my post. Curse my own two hands...

 

Wow, I didn't think that this post would get so big, and i didn't think that it would turn into an argument into stances....

 

Well, here are "some comments" from the person who made this post.

 

Raven put in three stances for a reason: because each has it's own advantages. They did not put the three in the game for one to be complety rejected, one to be almost ignored, and one to be over used. Red is not the "best" stance. Raven made the red to be the strongest, but clearly not the best. Many of the other stances has it's advantages as well. I have beaten many duels using the yellow and blue stacnes and I am sure that many very good players use the blue and yellow stances as well. I am sure that Raven created the stances to be switched durring duels, and I have a reason: The default settings for changing stances are the L key, and the middle button. Why would they put the changing stances button in such a key location? Because you are meant to change stances constantly to become an effective saberist. And, they all has been balenced in a way:

 

Red

Speed: Slow

Attack: Strong

Range: Long

 

Yellow

Speed: Medium

Attack: Medium

Range: Medium

 

Blue

Speed: Fast

Attack: Low

Range: Short

 

Something like this was posted by Twins of Doom earlier in this post (added in the range), credits to him

 

As you can see, all the stances are balence and there for should all be used by people effectivly. Thusly, you should use all the stances becasue they are all effective.

 

-teutonicknight

[LivingSacrifice]

Originally posted by lexx

I think the main point here is that using one stance alone whether it be blue, yellow or red makes you extremely predictable however good you may be. Yes you may win the first few fights, yes you may be very skilled and have the timing perfect but eventually it will be adapted to because of it's predictability. This is why I say a combination of all stances works best based on the oppositions style. Using a combination of stances make you unpredictable and unpredictability means surprise. Surprise is your best weapon.

 

That is to why I try to use all 3 stances when fighting. All of them have their good and bad, but when you combine them and use them for each of their good points, knowing when to use the blue lunge, the yellow fast and the red dfa, then you will be a better and more balanced player I think.

 

Just my 2 cents Not that I am good or anything...

 

 

Peace...

[Ruanek]

I can't seem to use red stance effectivly no matter how hard I try lol

[C'jais]

Well, for most people, red stance doesn't require much thought - simply do an attack + step right sweep attack and then barge into your opponent. That'll get your opponent moving (or hit).

Well, just back him into a corner with red stance and hope kicks and saberthrow are disabled.

 

BTW kids, don't trust Artifex about the "red is that best stance evar" thing. Practice with blue and yellow and red will seem inferior in half of all situations.

On another note: Just ignore whatever Artifex wrote in his guide and develop your own play style.

 

I wouldn't say that Artifex isn't good or does not know what he's doing (or that I'm any better than him), but most of what he writes can't be used IMHO. When you look at it, he just analyzes all the stances and agrees with himself that red is still the best in 1.03. No real play tips. That's just my opinion though.

 

Twins - I expect you to write a saber guide that is as useful for sabering as your other guides are for force fx. Keep up the good work.

[Xzzy]

well if you've ever watched artifex play, you'd understand where he's coming from. He's a min/max sort of person, and when he plays jk2, he wants to use the strongest tool available to score a kill in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of fuss.

 

That is to say, he goes for the one hit kills.

 

And incidentially he also has/had the skill to be able to use a single stance with almost unbeatable consistency. Which is why I've always been able to disclaim my statements in this thread with comments like "for people with sufficient skill".

 

That's not to say he's impossible to beat, I've seen fex die in duels a few times. But he's won many many more than that.