Darth Windu Posted August 29, 2002 Author Share Posted August 29, 2002 I am still not seeing any good argument apart from the standard 'it would make the republic too powerful'. Do you people not trust lucasarts to balance the unit? Conversely, instead of making the gunship a UU, make the canon gunship the advanced fightert instead of the fast fighter, and give it the ability to carry troops, just as the AT-AT can fire at air. The gunship is unique to the republic. There has never been anything else in the star wars universe that has the abilities of the gunship, or anything like it, so if it can be balanced, why not make it a UU for the republic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0RF Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 You haven't seen any good arguments against the UU gunship?!?!? :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: How about: 1). The artwork already exists as a fighter 2). There is no NEED for the addition of another UU 3). Adding a UU of this caliber would seriously unbalance the gameplay, and a lot of work would be required to accout for it 4). Here is a short list of units that are unique in the Star Wars universe, but exist as generic units in the game: X-Wing Y-Wing AT-PT AT-ST (which is listed as a Mech Destroyer even tho in the movies they are really only attacking troops) AT-TE STAP Bongo TIEs of every sort The thing you don't seem to understand about forensic debate is that you do not make some andom suggestion and dare us to prove you wrong. For an addition of this magnitude, the burden of proof is on YOU to tell us why it's a good idea, how to implement it, how to balance out the civ, and why things aren't fine just the way they are (hint: things ARE fine just the way they are). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 If you're so smart windu why don't YOU balance it out for us right here right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad If you're so smart windu why don't YOU balance it out for us right here right now! Because he can't! Windu Do you people not trust lucasarts to balance the unit? Quite honestly, if they actually listen to a moron like you, then no, I do not trust them to balance the unit. Windu, people are posting very intelligent comments and you just reply with your same old "it's unique, it's unique!" crusade. Please, just stfu. Kryllith Should people deduct 3 points for every time someone said something that was personally insulting...? I guess I'm in the negatives then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I am 100 % against the gunship beig anything but the fast fighter as it is and if anyone thinkis i am anything like thet loony windu think again if we're gonna put in the gunship why do't we give the empire the ability to make death stars and star destroyers eh? that's what your idea about the gunship is like LA can't put in a hyped up fighter that fires about 5 rockets and then runs out of tehm the game does need a couple of tweeks i admi but NO NEW UNITS like giving AAT's the ability to fire at air targets to like in ep 1 just unique techs for things like this and Hailfire Droids firing at ground targets maybe rebel alliance getting B-Wing research they are already in game they are toybox units they maybe should be abnle to be built by the rebels just little things to make the game more like the movies LISTEN WINDU WE DON@T WANT THE GUNSHIP IT IS NOT GOING IN THE GAME EVER GET IT THRU UR THICK SKULL NO NOEW UNITS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 First off, your "we", regardless of what you may think, does not speak for everyone on these forums. I'm interested in the gunship provided that any advantages that it may provide are balanced out (btw, I have noted a number of potential ways for balancing it, so those of you who complain that it can't be balanced should go back and reread old posts). Second, aside from the occasional presentation of a highly overpowered ship-of-the-gods (which have generally been ignored, thankfully), no one is looking to produce some uberfighter in the gunship. In fact, Windu's initial presentation of the gunship was to tone down it's combat abilities to allow for it's troop-carrying capabilities. The closest I'd personally would consider it having fighter capabilities is to simply allow the current "gunship" (advanced fighter) to carry troops (countered by a limitation in amount and style of units it can carry, as well as a limiting of amount/style of units the regular transport can carry. And the reason for proposing this change would be that it wouldn't require the creation of an entirely new unit. If a new unit were created, it would most likely have slower speed than a fighter, less AA attack, similar air-to-ground, and no shields. It would have more hps then the fighter, say maybe 70-75, and would be more resistant to AA (like the current transport is) but relatively vulnerable to fighters. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0RF Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 The twofold problem with your idea: 1). it's based on the use of the fast fighter, which is a generic unit, and as far as I know, the engine won't allow you to alter the generics that drastically as to allow fighters to carry troops 2). your idea also doesn't coincide with Windu's lone voice crying in the wilderness that the gunship is not a fighter, but more like an assault helicopter (oh which there is of course no equivalent in SWGB) and thus should be a UU. Gameplay > Realism. The point of the game is NOT to approximate the Star Wars universe, but to produce an RTS with people/places/things you might recognize from the movies, and a variety of different civs so that people could stage epic Rebel vs Empire or Repub vs. Confed battles. The immense wealth and variety of characters, races and ships/vehicles in the Star Wars universe make it next to impossible to portray them all in a realistic sense, much less with respect to their relative strengths/weaknesses (e.g. an RTS Death Star would never be blown up by a single X-Wing). Put more simply, be glad the art's in the game, and enjoy the game for what it is, Star Wars art attached to Age of Kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Since I've not had a hand in coding the game, I don't know how easy it is to make one unit capable of carrying another. For all we know, it might simply require the adjusting of a few variables. It's obvious that some play in generic units is capable, or the AT-AT wouldn't have been able to be upgraded to AA (and maybe it would require an upgrade to make the current fast fighter capable of carrying troops). Since I don't know though, there's no need to cease speculating the possibilites. As for it being a helicopter rather than a fighter, yeah that pretty much require the creation of another unit. As for gameplay vs. realism, I'm for both. The reason I like the idea of the gunship is because it throw a wrench into gameplay by forcing whoever plays the Republic to deal with the changes made to the way transporting troops works. Quite frankly, if it didn't, I wouldn't be the least bit interested in seeing the change. Will it work effectively? *shrugs* Who knows? Maybe LucasArts has already tried something similar and decided not to use it... or not. I'd like to keep the possibilities open though. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoL ShadowJedi Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 If we go for "realism" from the star wars universe, EVERY SINGLE UNIT SHOULD FIRE AT AIR Oh cool my second post i believe on this thread Im not a dumb **** like windu Oh dang does that take 3 points off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Kryllith, what you ask for would require an insane amount of programming in the patch, not to mention another intense roud of balancing. One of the reasons the a-wing was added to the game was to differeniate rebs and reps, but giving the reps an air bonus added on to what they already have is just shooting yourself in the foot. KoL, come on, post more. That way you'll be stupid with the rest of us. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 And for that matter, pretty much anything with missiles would be able to fire against ground targets. I'm for diversity though, not for making all of the civs capable of doing the same thing. As for the gunship, I really don't expect to see it in GB, in a new expansion pack or GB 2 perhaps (should LA decide to make either) but not as it currently sits. I definitely wouldn't expect them to do it just for a patch. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Like some one else said ''make the gunship ADV Fighter being able to carry troops''. It could work but here are some suggestion for balancing it out: -Carry one laser trooper and laser trooper only. -Bomber speed -No shields 60 HP For once I agree....but for how long.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted September 5, 2002 Author Share Posted September 5, 2002 luke - you cant edit the adv fighter away from being a fighter to give it partial gunship abilites, that would unbalanced the game. The gunship plan is for SW:GB 2, hopefully being put in as a Republic Unique Unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted September 5, 2002 Author Share Posted September 5, 2002 sithmaster - it would further differentiate the Rebel's and Republic. The A-wing is a high speed interceptor, the Gunship is a fairly slow assault transport. If you want to see examples of what im talking about in the real world look up the Mi-24 (Gunship) and MiG-25/31 (A-wing) The A-wing would be used for air superiority, while the Gunship would be used to assist ground forces. PS: the term 'gunship' is used to describe every attack helicopter in existance, hence the term 'helicopter gunship'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoL ShadowJedi Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 darth i think its time for u to stfu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_army_woTJ Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 What if The clones with those huge guns in the movie cost 10 nova and 30 food and the republic gunship and the other ship that carries the mechs were created out of a new building like an advanced air base and it costs 100 ore and 200 carbon to make and the Gunship costs 250 nova and 250 food and it can carry 10 troopers (only troopers) and it shoots a bunch of shots then takes anout 10 seconds to recharge and its a building eater and troops eater and the other air units can carry 4 strike mechs or 2 mech destyoers or 1 assalt mech and has alot of hp but no attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoL ShadowJedi Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 LOL, army, mate... that means imperials should have Lambda shuttle (same specs as gunship) and an advanced lambda ship like the same as the other one Rebs shud get lambda - as if you have played the games they have em too and shud get sommet similar to the other thing and so on.. Otherwise the republic will win all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad -Carry one laser trooper and laser trooper only. -Bomber speed -No shields 60 HP For once I agree....but for how long.... Unfortunately the side effect to this is the ruin of the Republic... their air will be slower, and unshielded (extra hp will not compensate for a loss of shields). Their air will be "bad", giving them only one real strength, Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by simwiz2 Unfortunately the side effect to this is the ruin of the Republic... their air will be slower, and unshielded (extra hp will not compensate for a loss of shields). Their air will be "bad", giving them only one real strength, Jedi. Course, if the Republic was the only civ to have Masters then it could just convert the opposing fighters. Seriously though, if the fighter was converted to be able to carry troops (instead of making a UU gunship) I'd just go ahead and leave its stats as it is already. Sure it will have shields, but it woule also be more suspectible to AA (with fighter stats rather than transports, since transports are more resistant to AA). Only thing I'd probably do is lower the amount regular transports could carry, and perhaps limit their carrying to non man-sized units (mechs, heavies, mounties, etc). I'd have the gunship capable of carrying 2 man-size units, be they laser/grenade/AA troopers, jedis, medics, or workers. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Simwiz Yes it does. But then I don't something able to end this discussion. Maybe it will create a downside to the republic but i said no shields for the gunship meaning that jedi starfighters and bombers will still get shields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted September 6, 2002 Author Share Posted September 6, 2002 From the Star Wars databank The Republic attack gunship was known in production as the "Jedi attack helicopter," clearly indicating its design roots. In much the same way that Director George Lucas used archival footage of World War II dogfights as inspiration for the starfighter battles in the original Star Wars, he turned to news footage of helicopter-troop deployment to help envision the clone trooper's gunships. The hunchback ****pit configuration was influenced by the the Russian Hind helicopter design. More evidence of my theory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 Nobody cares that it was designed to look like a helicopter, Windu. ATATs were designed after cows and ATSTs were designed after chickens. Maybe the empire should be able to hunt ATATs and ATSTs for food because they look like farm animals. The reps air, compared to other civs, is very balanced right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Windu More evidence of my theory... What theory? AFAIK no one has said that the Gunship did not exist, or that its design did not resemble a helicopter. It was still used similar to the way fighters would be used. You have an idea that the Gunship should be a UU, but your evidence does not support that idea. It supports that the Gunship existed in the movies and that its design is similar to a helicopter. I would assume most people here already know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 Originally posted by Sithmaster_821 Nobody cares that it was designed to look like a helicopter, Windu. ATATs were designed after cows and ATSTs were designed after chickens. Maybe the empire should be able to hunt ATATs and ATSTs for food because they look like farm animals. Sounds like a good idea! Imagine how much food you could get from an ATAT... provided the cargo bay is loaded with food that is. Maybe they should allow salvaging in the game if you have workers scrounging for parts. Of course, people who are anti-turtle probably wouldn't care for this since technically the expanders would just be bringing the turtlers resources in the form of units... Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbguy1211 Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Hey DarthMaulUK, could you close this thread too? Please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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