Debate Forum

[Zargon]

The only danger I could see involved with it is that it makes witchcraft seem very not evil......but I think its pretty obviosu in every part of HP that its very NOT real in any sort fo way, and besides, the Harry Potter Lego's are so lame

[edlib]

My feeling has always been that if someone is going to be likely to experiment with the occult, then they are eventually going to,.. with something like Harry Potter to insipre them or not. There have ALWAYS been those that gravitate towards that sort of thing... and long before there was LOTR, D&D, Ozzy Osbourne, or Harry Potter.

They might claim to have been insired to witchcraft by the Potter books and movies, or "Charmed" or even "Bewitched" for that matter, but even if you take all those things away they still probably would have gotten involved. The occult and those that dabble in it have existed as long as human civilization, but until a couple of years ago there was no Harry Potter. If the Harry Potter stories didn't exist the same number of people would still be attracted to witchcraft, but the blame for that would just be placed somewhere else, that's all.

As far as I'm concerned, any kid that hauls off to become Wicca (or whatever they call themselves these days) is telling me FAR more about thier parent's infulence on them and how much attention they pay to thier kids than the possibly harmful effects of pop-culture entertainment.

[Admiral Odin]

It all goes down to the Parents. If the child believes that HP, is real, then the parents must sit down and explain that it is fantasy. If they don't then there is the potential for a problem. However knowing kids they will probably lose interest in a short time anyways.

 

Keyan: The question here is not where witchcraft is wrong, but if Harry Potter should be condemned because it a movie about a school of witches.

 

When looking at HP, and LoTR, both of those movies deals with magic. So look at the message they send. HP the normal kiddy ones: honesty, friendship, not to judge people, ect. LoTR: friendship, honor, not to judge, ect.

 

As I said before it come down to the parents.

[Zargon]

Originally posted by Admiral

it's obvious that many parents do nothing to discipline their kids.

 

That doesn't mean that we can just step in and do it for them....

[Admiral Odin]

If the parents don't then the schools have to and if they can't, well then who will?

[Tierce]

No one...it's not society's responsibility to discpline children...The best way to teach respect is by example not physical abuse. If you show students respect, then most likely they will respect you back.

[Redwing]

Well if you want to know the real answer to that, it's called social services.

[Cmdr. Cracken]

i honestly don't see the whole anti-witch thing. I mean, Wiccan (the politically correct term now, or whatevers) are, for the most part, fairly nice peoples. Hell, i dated a girl who practices this, and have had no ill effects, strange dreams, ect. Nice peoples, i like them.

 

Now, about Harry Potter promoting the practice of sorcery and such stuffs to little kids, it might. but didn't back in the days of yore didn't you wanna put on a cape and fly and be like SUperman? or shoot webbing like Spider-Man (whom is UBER l337!)? for the most part it's a phase, and nothing more. True, Wicca is actually practiced, and parents should tell there kids that yes, sometimes it can be really messy and dangerous. but it's most likely a small phase.

 

Concerning disiplining your kids, yeah, people for some reason nowadays don't like to because of some BS that it harms the kids mental and social patterns later in life, which, is complete BS. it's mearly helping your kids learn what is right from wrong, and to help them becomes a stable and law abiding human being. I'd have NO PROBLEMS breaking my kids broadband connection, or there other meaningful methods of recreation, as would my parents. (If i didn't have broadband internet... *shudder*) It's all about growing up. Parents who sit by and do nothing as thier child runs around like a little idiot breaking everyone's stuff under the guise of "It'll hurt my child" are mearly wussing out, IMHO.

 

As for respect, parents should not automatically gain that. It should be for everyone else. You EARN RESPECT FROM YOUR CHILD. then you'll probably have a better relationship, besides.

[MadPilot]

Originally posted by Cmdr. Cracken

or shoot webbing like Spider-Man (whom is UBER l337!)?

 

Some people obviously don't like spiderman:

 

http://www2.b3ta.com/spidermanwillmakeyougay/

[Tierce]

People today certainly have way too much time on their hands.

[Admiral Odin]

That was disturbing.

[superthrawn]

Ok, since this is likely to be a long post, I'll get the fun stuff out of the way first.

 

Spiderman is the second coolest superhero ever. Most of you are unlikely to know who the first is, unless you watched Cartoon Network this weekend and saw the new Bagboy cartoons. Bagboy is officially the coolest hero ever.

 

Now then, onto the more difficult, glaring things.

 

HP is an argument that will likely never be solved. Children seem to love it for it's endearing and well, lovable characters. But there are a few problems with it. I question whether or not many of you have read the book. I'd be interested to know who has. My brother checked the first out of the library when it first came out, and my mom asked me to read it before he did, because she'd heard some stuff about it. Being the avid reader that I am, I put down for a few days what I had been involved in, and picked this one up. I must confess, I couldn't find anything glaringly evil in the first book, because there really wasn't anything. What I must say though, was that there *were* some darker themes. And that's where the problems that I have with it begin.

 

I've never met J.K. Rowling, so I have no problems with her as a person. Publicly though, she does dabble in witchcraft, and I don't care what they want to call it, that's what it is. That to me, is a dangerous offense. I do believe in witches, and I believe that while they're not nearly as powerful as they claim, they do have "powers" per-se. I am of the opinion that there are many more supernatural happenings going on at any time than we can truly fathom. But now I'm straying. J.K. Rowling had a purpose when she started these books. Soon after the first came out, it was revealed that there would be seven of them. I find it highly surprising that she just settled on some random number, that she just picked seven books. No, I think it more likely that she had a planned number of books from the beginning, and that she knew what would be in each book. I've not read another book since that first, and I don't need to. On top of that, my dad would kill me if I did. I have heard, though, that each of the themes becomes progressively darker and more magic-oriented as the books progress. This pulls kids in, and then plants the seeds of interest in their minds. I'm not talking about ones who already had the curiousity of the occult in their minds, I'm talking about kids who have no idea how evil this can be... whose parents have never taught them. C.S. Elliot (I'm almost positive) said once, "There are two bad ways to think about the Devil. One is to believe he exists and have an unnatural interest in him, the other is to refuse his existence completely." Children who've never been exposed to this stuff, whose parents can't find the time or energy or conviction to teach their children beyond simple right or wrong are susceptible to this. Very susceptible. That's the problem I have with Harry Potter, and why I do believe it leads kids to witchcraft. Maybe not smart ones, maybe not educated ones, but each soul counts.

 

On a discipline note, my parents didn't like to spank me as a child, but they did when they saw fit. As a result, I have respect for authority. I've breached it a few times, most notably in my gym class last year, when I blew up and yelled at my gym teacher about needing to get control of his class in front of everyone after he repeatedly ignored a kid throwing elbows into my back whenever he'd run by. In some sports that's not a problem, but in softball, when he's running and I'm playing first base, that's a cheap shot and nothing else. Anyway, I've learned to respect those who are positions of power, because they usually got there for a reason, and most of the time a decent one at that. All because my parents weren't afraid to hit me as a kid. They never beat me, and don't anymore. I'm not abused, never was. Just punished, and it worked.

[edlib]

I have read all the books as well as seen the movie. I found them entertaining, although some of the writing's a little on the light side. I simply don't understand what all this hubbub is about. The stories are getting a little darker as they progress, simply because that's how drama has to work to be interesting.

As for the number of books she's writing, I guess there could be some mystical signifigance to it,.. or she could have written a rough outline of the plots, and realized it would take 7 stories to tell it all.... just like George Lucas did with the Star Wars movies. If the original Star Wars movie didn't sell any tickets he wouldn't have been able to make the rest. But since it did he revealed the the original movie was #4 in a 6-part series. I suspect it was a similar situation with the Potter books. If the first one hadn't taken off I'm sure that would be the only one out there today.

Honestly, I don't care if the author dabbles in witchcraft or not, it doesn't make the story more or less entertaining, or even more authentic for that matter, even if it's true. I have read many, many books by authors who's personal lives were questionable, to say the least. Reading Hunter S. Thompson's "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" at an impressionable younger age didn't make me rush out to become a potentially violent anti-social junkie. Hemingway struck me as kind of a over-macho, chauvanistic, drunken jerk,.. but I have read almost everything he has ever written because he was a such a great writer. Then there are those that claim that Tolkien was a closet homosexual, or perhaps bi-sexual, and that there is a homosexual subtext to "Lord of the Rings" if you look for it. I never bothered. I really don't care if it's true or not. It's a great story and that's all that matters to me. Tolkien's personal life doesn't enter into it as far as I'm concerned. The story has to live on it's own merits, regardless of the author's lifestyle.

Telling kids that they can't read a book like Harry Potter because it will be bad for them is ultimately only going to make it that more enticing to them. Not making such a big deal out of it seems like it would be a healthier approach in the end.

Again, it comes down to parental responsibility to teach your children the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, fiction and reality. Banning a book because it talks about subjects you don't think your children are capable of dealing with is (to me) as good as admitting that you haven't taught your kids these things yourself, and are incapable or too lazy to do it.

Ultimately it's just words on the page. Perception is the only difference.

[superthrawn]

Look, I'm not in favor of burning books or anything. Harry Potter has been thrust into the realms of human conciousness and there it shall most likely remain, in one form or another, forever. I can't take away what has already been done, can't make kids forget what they've read. What I am advocating is that we don't hold HP up as a symbol of everything that is right with reading, because it's not. But we're giving this book to first graders who are falling in love with it, and the simple fact of the matter is that they cannot tell the difference between fact and fiction. To them, HP is real. Not only real, but just outside the grasp of their own reaches.

 

When I said "darker" I didn't mean thematically, though that's how it came off. What I meant was in terms of the witchcraft content. I've heard that each book is progressively more into the witchcraft, more into the occult. And for children who believe this is real, we're treading a fine line.

 

Here's an interesting tidbit for ya'll: Proctor and Gamble just completed a recent survey. It shows that 9 out of 10 americans believe in God, and 8 in 10 believe they are Christians of one form or another. But the real shocker 40% of people say they attend church at least 4 times a month. Heard that on Focus on the Family. Just thought I'd throw it out.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by superthrawn

Here's an interesting tidbit for ya'll: Proctor and Gamble just completed a recent survey. It shows that 9 out of 10 americans believe in God, and 8 in 10 believe they are Christians of one form or another. But the real shocker 40% of people say they attend church at least 4 times a month. Heard that on Focus on the Family. Just thought I'd throw it out.

 

Reminds me of a line from Speaker for the Dead (or was it Xenocide?).

[Gold leader]

I don't consider that a shocker. Actually, 40% looks like quite a lot to me, we're not living in the 13th century anymore.

[edlib]

Originally posted by superthrawn

But we're giving this book to first graders who are falling in love with it, and the simple fact of the matter is that they cannot tell the difference between fact and fiction. To them, HP is real. Not only real, but just outside the grasp of their own reaches.

Many first graders also tend to believe that there's a magical, immortal man who lives at the North Pole who can see everything you do, has a workshop full of elves who make billions of toys every year, can carry them all in a single sack, can travel to every household in the world in the course of one night in a sleigh pulled by flying deer, and fit down a chimney stack despite the fact that he's grossly overweight.

There's also something about an egg-bearing bunny with similar powers and another one-day-a-year agenda.

I've also heard rumors about a fairy with a dental fetish as well... but she pays good money, from what I understand.

Then there's the guy with the sand, who hangs around all day waiting for eveyone to go to sleep...

But I can't possibly imagine where these kids are actually getting these crazy ideas...

If kids believe in magic, it's only because we are encouraging the hell out of it with legends like these.

 

But most kids grow out of these beliefs in a few years. As they mature the magical world they percieve around them ceases to exist as thier minds can grasp the reality of how the real world actually works.

 

Originally posted by superthrawn

I've heard that each book is progressively more into the witchcraft, more into the occult. And for children who believe this is real, we're treading a fine line.

 

Most of the magic that I saw in ALL the Potter books went by largely unexplained, like the train station that nobody can see, or the flying broomsticks.

The rest of it falls into a couple of other catagories:

1. - Pointing thier wands at someone or something and shouting some vaguely-latinish sounding word. Or...

2. - Creating potions or the like out of the parts of plants or creatures that don't exist in the real world.

There is the occasional spell or incantation actually written out, usually sounding as if she's trying to work along the lines of the Macbeth "Double, double, toil and trouble..." school of literature.

 

None of it really strikes me as the least bit authentic to the little I actually know about the practices of witchcraft and genuine occultism.

[Admiral Odin]

Originally posted by edlib

Many first graders also tend to believe that there's a magical, immortal man who lives at the North Pole who can see everything you do, has a workshop full of elves who make billions of toys every year, can carry them all in a single sack, can travel to every household in the world in the course of one night in a sleigh pulled by flying deer, and fit down a chimney stack despite the fact that he's grossly overweight.

There's also something about an egg-bearing bunny with similar powers and another one-day-a-year agenda.

I've also heard rumors about a fairy with a dental fetish as well... but she pays good money, from what I understand.

Then there's the guy with the sand, who hangs around all day waiting for eveyone to go to sleep...

 

Are you telling me there is no Santa

 

There is nothing wrong with Children believing in a little magic.

[Kylilin]

As for this whole Harry Potter debate:

 

I like freedom of Speech.

 

and...

 

 

I never really got hit as a child, mostly because I was a pretty good kid, and I'm too good in covering my tracks. When I did get hit, it was usually a slap, never anything more. But when it comes to behavior of children, Parents need to act like Parents, spend time with their kids, give them a little respect, and your kids will give you respect back. But I definately do not disagree with a slap for being out of order every now and then. It doesn't have to be a hard slap either, I think the idea of being slapped is much worse than the actual physical pain it brings (unless you get slapped with a frying pan).

[Commander 598]

who can see everything you do

 

Beware of the "all-seeing eye".

 

Santa Claus is evil!!

Beware of the fat man for he bringeth untold evil!

Since we were vaguely on thesubject...

 

 

There's also something about an egg-bearing bunny with similar powers and another one-day-a-year agenda.

 

So, Zoom has a hobbie. Everyone knows that.

 

I believe that its a scheme to get inside the Pentagon. Sneak in listening device or robotic probe in the egg.

[Redwing]

I'm going to give up having a concise argument and just pull bits from everywhere.

 

FIrst of all, witchcraft is an incredibly vague term. It can mean many, many, many things that have almost nothing to do with each other!

 

The 'real thing'? Well it isn't even called witchcraft anymore, it's called Wicca. And they don't fly on broomsticks. And they don't claim to have any such powers. It bears to resemblence to Harry Potter.

 

J.K. Rowling had a purpose when she started these books.

 

Yeah. They were bedtime stories for her kids. She had no idea they'd become what they are now.

 

I find it highly surprising that she just settled on some random number, that she just picked seven books.

 

Each book is a year. There's seven school years in her fictional years. And I'm afraid I didn't catch the significance there. Seven days in a week?

 

I have heard, though, that each of the themes becomes progressively darker and more magic-oriented as the books progress. This pulls kids in, and then plants the seeds of interest in their minds.

 

What?!? What are you talking about? The whole concept of the series is magic oriented. Not Wicca oriented. It can't pull kids in because in HP-verse, either you are born with magic powers, or you ain't got them!

 

I'm not talking about ones who already had the curiousity of the occult in their minds, I'm talking about kids who have no idea how evil this can be... whose parents have never taught them. C.S. Elliot (I'm almost positive) said once, "There are two bad ways to think about the Devil. One is to believe he exists and have an unnatural interest in him, the other is to refuse his existence completely."

 

It can be evil? You're talking about something completely different than what I've read, obviously, because I've read all of the HP books to date and there's no mention of the Devil. Or anything to do with the Devil.

 

Who is C.S. Elliot? Do you mean C.S. Lewis...and if so, have you ever read the Chronicles of Narnia?

 

But we're giving this book to first graders who are falling in love with it, and the simple fact of the matter is that they cannot tell the difference between fact and fiction. To them, HP is real. Not only real, but just outside the grasp of their own reaches.

 

What? If they take it seriously, then in HP-verse they would fall into the category of "Muggles" - non-magic people. Cuz see in Harry Potter universe, you can't 'convert' to magic. You are either born with it or you are not. And you know if you're born with it, because you cause supernatural things to happen around you when you're in emotional distress.

 

So saying you can convert to that is like saying you can convert to becoming Spiderman or something.

 

When I said "darker" I didn't mean thematically, though that's how it came off. What I meant was in terms of the witchcraft content. I've heard that each book is progressively more into the witchcraft, more into the occult. And for children who believe this is real, we're treading a fine line.

 

Like I said, I've read all of the books. The above is a lie. They are getting darker thematically - a 'liked' character was killed by the fourth book. These conspiracy theories are trash - invented by people who won't read the books because they would be 'exposing themselves to evil'.

 

The dishonesty of some 'Christian experts' astounds me.

 

*switches subjects*

 

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

 

Reminds me of a line from Speaker for the Dead (or was it Xenocide?).

 

Ack! I need to read those. I've only read the first - are the others as good as the original?

[Admiral Odin]

Super Thrawn Your giving me the impression that you also believe that violent video games also lead to people to kill. You have condemned the entire HP series from reading 1 book. Read the others before you say anything.

 

You know she probably did pick 7 stories for a reason. Maybe for the 7 deadly sins, or the 7 days it took to create the world, or maybe she devishly only had 7 stories. Maybe 7 is all for now and more will come later on.

 

Your over analzing this thing.

 

HP=kiddie story; leave it at that. A thing only has power if you grant it power. HP teaches about friendship ect.

 

Changing topics.

 

Did you know that the nursery ryhme the Mouse ran up the clock actually written during Henry the 8th reign. It was about the beheading of his wives (when ever the clock struck and the mouse came down, = the time and the head leaving the body)

[edlib]

"Ring Around the Rosie" is actually about people dying of the plague... the Black Death.

 

Charming,.. no?

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Redwing

Ack! I need to read those. I've only read the first - are the others as good as the original?

 

I am assuming that by "the first one" you mean Ender's Game. In my opinion, Speaker for the Dead is superior to Ender's Game although it is very, very different. Xenocide and Children of the Mind are continuations of the story in Speaker for the Dead, and are also good, but I would have to say they get a bit weak and I prefer Ender's Game over those two sequels. Card also recently wrote Ender's Shadow which is a retelling of Ender's Game from the perspective of Bean, and isn't too bad, but it is probably my least favorite of the Ender books. He also wrote Shadow of the Hegemon which tells the story of what happened on Earth after Ender's Game, but I have not had the chance to read that one yet, so I don't know how it is.

[Admiral Odin]

isn't it nice what we teach our children.