Evolution vs Creationism - a Reasoned Debate

[C'jais]

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar

 

The "coating" that you refer to will be created spontaneously: The lipids (certain aminic acids) that form the outer layer of the cell will spontaniously form into a ball: They have a hydrofile (mixable with water) end and a hydrophobe (shunning water) end, meaning that the configuration that has the least energy will be a ball. There's your cell wall.

 

Just a small correction Templar, what you're reffering to is the cell membrane - the wall is made of peptidoglykanes (in danish), and is made amino acids, which were there in the first place. On plants it is made of celulosis.

 

What Templar said about science and models is good wisdom - pick the model that depicts reality in the most probable way. Do you think creationism resembles the probable reality in the most likely way, or does that honor belong to evolution?

[C'jais]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

 

And if you talk like that how do you know that it is 15 billion?

 

We don't - we calculate and make use of tools to prove that it is, but we will never know for sure.

 

I simply used sarcasm to make you understand that the world could have been created 1 second before you were created and with planted evidence (matrix-like ), you'd never know. This ties in well with what you say - that someone created reality and we will never know for sure - IE God.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

Don't judge us all from one person. I can't judge everyone from Denmark because one person was a jerk.

 

Aimed at me, or one of the 2 other Danes in the old thread? Regardless, you just made a flame.

 

Regarding C-14 tests, they are not as inaccurate as you say. While it is true that the C-14 dating will vary the further back in time you go, which is why a correctional graph has been made btw, it will still prove that things are far older than 6000 years.

 

Paraphrasing Templar, if Dinosaurs existed alongside humans, then how come their bones have fossilized and ours have not?

 

Again, how come there have existed "sub-humans" such as homo erectus and habilis that are now extinct - the bible mentions none of these.

 

EDIT - Moderators, please change the name to "Evolution vs Creationism" - as stated in the first post, it was all the time meant as a way to continue the debate (not fight).

[C'jais]

*BUMP*

 

Something worth noticing: God wanted Man to be made. To want is to have an unfulfilled desire. God is complete, therefore he cannot have any unfulfilled desires. Then why did God create Man?

[lllKyNeSlll]

the ultimate question...

 

 

during the big bang, the small compacted neutrino object with reletively infinite density expanded and grew exponentially to form the universe; however, how did the compacted mass materialize?

[ShadowTemplar]

Originally posted by lllKyNeSlll

the ultimate question...

 

 

during the big bang, the small compacted neutrino object with reletively infinite density expanded and grew exponentially to form the universe; however, how did the compacted mass materialize?

 

This is a mindboggling question to even think about, let alone comprehend. I cannot explain it to you, but I have a link that may:

 

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000C55B5-C29B-1CDA-B4A8809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=4

 

Or, if you want more articles on the subject visit:

 

http://www.sciam.com

 

and run a Search on Big Bang.

 

I also encourage browsing the site. It is very informative on a great many subjects.

[Pierre the Frog]

All of you so-called creationist seem to agree with the Darwinists to some extend, or did the dinosaures and the zebras live in one big happy unity once?

 

Acording to the bible God created the "Beasts" all at once so if the zebra didn't live at the same time as the Triceratops some kind of evolution must have occured.

 

If that is so why cant you accept that humans might also have evolved?

 

And if the zebra lived at the same time as the dinosaure why haven't we found any traces of them?

[StormHammer]

Feel free to debate the issue in a reasoned fashion.

 

Any posts bearing any perceived insults will be deleted as a matter of course, regardless of other content. So try to be mindful of other members of these forums, that everyone is entitled to disparate points of view, and profer them due respect.

 

BTW, good point, Pierre.

[BCanr2d2]

What I can't seem to understand is that many people, or at least some, can't see that both Creationism and Evolution do not have to be mutually exclusive, i.e. if one exists the other doesn't. There are those that believe both can co-exist, and they believe the Bible was written as a parable, since that was how the Jews wrote at that time in history.

 

How many of you know that it is the Roman Catholic church is responsible for the interpretation of the Bible as literal, and not metaphorical?

 

As for dinosaur bones, it is commonly believed that a major geological event, either asteroid, or massive eruption, lead to the downfall of the dinosaurs. Either of these events will leave conditions conducive to creation of fossils, a lot of light ash and dust is able to cover the bones.

As for neanderthals and homo-sapiens, use the alternative name for Darwinism - Survival of the Fittest. If homo-sapiens use the same resources a lot better, ie developed better hunting skills and got the available food, forcing Neanderthal man to hunt in different areas not so rich in food, with no competition, then no doubt Neanderthal man will have died as a result.

 

I want to know how Creationists, some of them, can not believe in one form of science to explain the world, yet believe almost all others without any shadow of a doubt? How they can believe Physics, Chemistry and Biology amongst many scientific fields, yet not Evolution?

 

When it comes to science, amongst other things, did any one realise that the time period of recorded temperatures ISN'T long enough to prove whether the increase in temperature is due to man-made reasons, or due to natural reasons.

 

I believe in science, but I also do not take everything at face value.

[Redwing]

meep. I've been not paying attention here ^^;

 

I'm just gonna reply to stuff that's been posted since cj bumped it. ^_^

 

Something worth noticing: God wanted Man to be made. To want is to have an unfulfilled desire. God is complete, therefore he cannot have any unfulfilled desires. Then why did God create Man?

 

Aah! But complete means Having all necessary or normal parts, components, or steps; entire. Which God is. ^_^ Besides, he thinks nothing like us. It's like a bug wondering why the mean ole human is squashing it (except in reverse ^_~) How could the bug understand?

 

Regarding C-14 tests, they are not as inaccurate as you say. While it is true that the C-14 dating will vary the further back in time you go, which is why a correctional graph has been made btw, it will still prove that things are far older than 6000 years.

 

Yes. ^_^ Actually among creation scientists there's a general agreement that the earth is more than ten thousand years old.

 

did the dinosaures and the zebras live in one big happy unity once?

 

Yup. ^_^

 

Acording to the bible God created the "Beasts" all at once so if the zebra didn't live at the same time as the Triceratops some kind of evolution must have occured.

 

Buh? Oh, you mean because they were found in different layers. Well see, creation scientists believe that they lived in different habitats, and were layered like they are during the Flood (rather than being layed down over time.)

 

And if the zebra lived at the same time as the dinosaure why haven't we found any traces of them?

 

Maybe they were less common. ^_^ Or lived in a place where they couldn't have gotten fossilized. Remember, according to the Creation model, a whole heckuva lotta stuff got fossilized during the Flood.

 

What I can't seem to understand is that many people, or at least some, can't see that both Creationism and Evolution do not have to be mutually exclusive, i.e. if one exists the other doesn't. There are those that believe both can co-exist, and they believe the Bible was written as a parable, since that was how the Jews wrote at that time in history.

 

But Genesis, when it was written, was taken as history at the time. The Bible was written by many different people over a very very large amount of time. ^_^

 

By the way, I agree with you. I believe evolution happens. I just believe that God created the template.

 

How many of you know that it is the Roman Catholic church is responsible for the interpretation of the Bible as literal, and not metaphorical?

 

No, just responsible for the interpretation of the whole thing as literal ^.^ (i.e. Last Supper celebration bread really turns into bits of Jesus' body when you eat it, and Last Supper celebration wine really turns into Jesus' blood when you drink it!)

 

As for dinosaur bones, it is commonly believed that a major geological event, either asteroid, or massive eruption, lead to the downfall of the dinosaurs. Either of these events will leave conditions conducive to creation of fossils, a lot of light ash and dust is able to cover the bones.

 

Or an enormous greenhouse layer collapsing to flood the entire planet. ^_^ Which would also create great conditions for fast fossilization.

 

As for neanderthals and homo-sapiens, use the alternative name for Darwinism - Survival of the Fittest. If homo-sapiens use the same resources a lot better, ie developed better hunting skills and got the available food, forcing Neanderthal man to hunt in different areas not so rich in food, with no competition, then no doubt Neanderthal man will have died as a result.

 

That is the Darwinist theory. Just for completion, I'll mention that among creation scientists, Neanderthals are considered to be, simply, human; a race that developed and then ceased to exist.

 

I want to know how Creationists, some of them, can not believe in one form of science to explain the world, yet believe almost all others without any shadow of a doubt? How they can believe Physics, Chemistry and Biology amongst many scientific fields, yet not Evolution?

 

I don't believe Evolution started the world. I believe God did. Besides, Evolution is a theory. I happen to believe it happens, but there are scientists (nonreligious, too!) who happen to believe it doesn't exist. You can't fault them for that. Theories, after all, are just people's fantasies. Maybe in a few hundred years, our descendants (I almost said 'ancestors' ) will have come up with a new and better theory to replace evolution. They will look back and say to their friends "Can you believe those silly people back in the twenty-first century? Believing in made-up things like evolution, and photons, and brainwaves." And they'll be as assured as us that their science is impeccable. And maybe, just maybe, in another hundred years they'll be laughed at too. Keep that in mind, when you're so furiously arguing. ^_^

[Pierre the Frog]

Buh? Oh, you mean because they were found in different layers. Well see, creation scientists believe that they lived in different habitats, and were layered like they are during the Flood (rather than being layed down over time.)

 

You've found fossils of dinosaures where Zebras amongst others live today, did all of those animals migrate to africa after the flood? That would mean that none of the animals we see today lived in America, Africa or some parts of Asia.

 

Sometimes you find "modern" animals above dinosaures (in different layers), how do the creationist scientists account for that? (Keep in mind the "modern" animals where still buried in stone)

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Redwing

Or an enormous greenhouse layer collapsing to flood the entire planet. ^_^ Which would also create great conditions for fast fossilization.

 

That is the Darwinist theory. Just for completion, I'll mention that among creation scientists, Neanderthals are considered to be, simply, human; a race that developed and then ceased to exist.

 

As far as I know, that greenhouse layer was called the firmament - or heaven. When it came crashing down on earth, did that mean heaven was gone/destroyed? Also, where is the trace of this layer found nowadays - such a massive amount of water must have caused everything to perish. Fast fossilization? It would have smashed every living thing on earth, leaving only fine dust beneath the huge waves.

 

Did neanderthals simply cease to exist for some reason? Why would God have created them in that case?

 

And regarding the analogy about God and the beetle - Why did God create Man in the first place, if he then later decided to "flood the laboratory" - And God even predicted this?

 

EDIT - Oh, btw: Thanks for changing the name

[Elijah]

Arguing evolution isn’t relevant to me... I'm here and I believe in God. I don’t care how I got here, or how long it took.

[Luc Solar]

All I really want to know is:

 

(sorry for being a party-pooper)

 

How excatly do the creationists argument their case?

 

'cause the Bible says so?

 

Is that it?

 

That's all?

 

.........................oukei-doakie..................

[BCanr2d2]

Originally posted by ZDawg

Arguing evolution isn’t relevant to me... I'm here and I believe in God. I don’t care how I got here, or how long it took.

 

Just asking a polite question, so you don't question your beliefs about how you got here? You have blind faith?

 

What people like me want to know, or at least understand, is how you believe in the Bible and how it concerns you about the beginning of the Earth. A lot of what we have had given to us is "We think, therefore we are" arguements, without backing it up, what makes you believe.

With Evolution, we CAN use imperical evidence to show why we believe it to be true, many of the counter punches on the Creationist side are trying to debunk science and evolution, rather than explaining their beliefs...

 

Some of what is being thrown up here is very much delving into the field of philosophy.

[Elijah]

Originally posted by BCanr2d2

 

Just asking a polite question, so you don't question your beliefs about how you got here? You have blind faith?

 

Its not that i dont question it, its that there are more important things at hand to worry about, and frankly its this simple: I'm here, the time is now, and i must make use of the time that is given to me.

[Redwing]

Sometimes you find "modern" animals above dinosaures (in different layers), how do the creationist scientists account for that? (Keep in mind the "modern" animals where still buried in stone)

 

The Flood rearranging things, for the most simplistic explanation ^.^ (Because I'm too lazy to look up the whole thing ^_~)

 

Also, some modern animals wouldn't have existed yet. There's also a theory that because the Earth was alot healthier then, creatures could adapt much faster. ^.^

 

As far as I know, that greenhouse layer was called the firmament - or heaven. When it came crashing down on earth, did that mean heaven was gone/destroyed? Also, where is the trace of this layer found nowadays - such a massive amount of water must have caused everything to perish. Fast fossilization? It would have smashed every living thing on earth, leaving only fine dust beneath the huge waves.

 

Heavens" was a figurative word for it - they didn't have 'greenhouse layer' or 'atmosphere' back then. As for the traces, they are the layers. If the earth is young, they had to have gotten there fast.

 

Eh? No O.o It "broke" not came crashing down, making it rain hard. "

 

Did neanderthals simply cease to exist for some reason? Why would God have created them in that case?

 

They died out. If everyone from Asia (bearing the physical characteristics of an Asian native) eventually intermarried so much that they ceased to exist the way we know "them" now, would we question why they existed in the frist place? Besides, God gave man free will. Man is running the show to some extent by man's choices.

 

And regarding the analogy about God and the beetle - Why did God create Man in the first place, if he then later decided to "flood the laboratory" - And God even predicted this?

 

You're thinking of God as if he was a man. I refer to my ant analogy ^.^

 

Besides, he didn't kill off man. We're here aren't we? If we have souls, then our physical bodies mean alot less. Same with earth itself.

 

What people like me want to know, or at least understand, is how you believe in the Bible and how it concerns you about the beginning of the Earth. A lot of what we have had given to us is "We think, therefore we are" arguements, without backing it up, what makes you believe.

With Evolution, we CAN use imperical evidence to show why we believe it to be true, many of the counter punches on the Creationist side are trying to debunk science and evolution, rather than explaining their beliefs...

 

Faith. I'm only trying to explain creation's position. Personally, if God existed as in the Bible, I think it makes sense that he would have created the Bible to let us know. I have faith that he did...and I'm not trying to force my faith on anyone.

 

The thing is, most people here are just using their arguments to debunk creation. I am trying to show why it doesn't work, which puts things on a level playing ground. ^.^

[Mandalorian54]

However, through various dating means, you would see that all the horses lived and died at the same time, and because they were all found at the same place you'd say with a fair amount of reason that they weren't different stages of horses.

 

 

The dating methods evolutionists and other sientists use to find out how old a fossil is are extremely inaccurate.

 

They get anything from 100 billion years to 10 years. This I leared in sience class.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Mandolorian54

 

 

The dating methods evolutionists and other sientists use to find out how old a fossil is are extremely inaccurate.

 

They get anything from 100 billion years to 10 years. This I leared in sience class.

 

Oh well.

 

Even if they are that inaccurate, you could tell by the layers which they are buried in: If it was caused by an avalanche, all the horsies would be found on the same layer.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Redwing

 

The Flood rearranging things, for the most simplistic explanation ^.^ (Because I'm too lazy to look up the whole thing ^_~)

 

Also, some modern animals wouldn't have existed yet. There's also a theory that because the Earth was alot healthier then, creatures could adapt much faster. ^.^

 

Even if the flood rearranged things, they would still be on the same layer, or level. And I would still like to see some proof of a great flood occuring in our history.

 

 

Heavens" was a figurative word for it - they didn't have 'greenhouse layer' or 'atmosphere' back then. As for the traces, they are the layers. If the earth is young, they had to have gotten there fast.

 

Eh? No O.o It "broke" not came crashing down, making it rain hard. "

 

What did this greenhouse layer protect back in the day? As far as I know, we have enough greenhouse layer problems now in our time.

 

They died out. If everyone from Asia (bearing the physical characteristics of an Asian native) eventually intermarried so much that they ceased to exist the way we know "them" now, would we question why they existed in the frist place? Besides, God gave man free will. Man is running the show to some extent by man's choices.

 

Yes they died out, but God would be able to predict this, using simple logic - he would have realized that since man was so much superior, the neanderthals and other different races of humans would have a sealed fate. Which leads me to the question as to why he even bothered creating them in the first place.

 

 

Redwing, do you believe in the story of Adam and Eve?

 

This debate has grinded to a halt since you all seem to agree that every dating means is inaccurate as hell, unreliable and worthless.

 

Fossilization takes a great deal of time - if certain dinosaur bones are fossilized and human's aren't, then we must have come after the dinosaurs, no?

[Mandalorian54]

I didn't understand redwing he talks strange and is difficult to understand. I didn't read all of what he said but I'm just not concerned whith that.

 

I think I heard at a confrence or somthin that human fossils have been found, even whith dinosaur fossils, in the same sediment layer, but you don't learn that in school.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Mandolorian54

I think I heard at a confrence or somthin that human fossils have been found, even whith dinosaur fossils, in the same sediment layer, but you don't learn that in school.

 

A creationist conference mayhaps?

 

Nope, I didn't learn that at school, and neither did I learn anything about creationism or christianity at school.

[Clem]

not everything we know comes from school ... or church (which i take to be the creationist equivalent)

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Clem

not everything we know comes from school ... or church (which i take to be the creationist equivalent)

 

Very true - I didn't learn anything about evolution in school either, except that it was true and was never debated.

[TheWhiteRaider]

Originally posted by Cjais

 

Aimed at me, or one of the 2 other Danes in the old thread? Regardless, you just made a flame.

 

Regarding C-14 tests, they are not as inaccurate as you say. While it is true that the C-14 dating will vary the further back in time you go, which is why a correctional graph has been made btw, it will still prove that things are far older than 6000 years.

 

Paraphrasing Templar, if Dinosaurs existed alongside humans, then how come their bones have fossilized and ours have not?

 

Again, how come there have existed "sub-humans" such as homo erectus and habilis that are now extinct - the bible mentions none of these.

 

EDIT - Moderators, please change the name to "Evolution vs Creationism" - as stated in the first post, it was all the time meant as a way to continue the debate (not fight).

 

It was not aimed at you or anyone on this forum. I have seen someone from Denmark that was a total jerk. Do not act like every thing is pointed at you.

 

And the reason I asked about Fossil beds is because there was some found over in the Middle East where they found fossilized dinosaurs with other animals that were suppose to evolve after the time of dinosaurs. I would show you the picture if my dumb scanner was working.

 

not everything we know comes from school ... or church

 

Same here.

 

 

 

 

Also the reason I don't trust the dating methods is that we do not have anything which we know(Outside of dating methods) is 1 million years of age. Our dating methods could be like a pistol. Fine for small ranges, but it can be bad for long ranges. So some may be good for a few thousand years, but we have no way of showing that it can work over long amounts of time.

 

Also did you know that the layers(Jurrasic,ect.) in the earth have one interesting. All the layers are not there in all parts of the world. As in other words. Some areas have all, but Jurrasic. Others only have 6 of the layers missing. There is not a single place in the world that has all of them. And there are some places that the layers goes from (Top to bottom) oldest layer to youngest insted of youngest to oldest.