Attack Iraq?

[Wacky_Baccy]

True, but it shouldn't be left to them in the first place...

[ET Warrior]

Understandably, but the government spent all it's money sending in the troops to mess up the country, can't afford to fix it. So it's left to the kind hearted citizens to fix it....

[Wacky_Baccy]

LOL!

 

I think the US government would have to try a bit harder then that to spend all their money ...They could buy Afghanistan if they really wanted to O.O ...I wonder if there's much oil there - that might pique their interest

[Breton]

Originally posted by ep2 Anakin

ok, since there are way too many posts for my liking, i only read the first 2 or 3, but my views are as follows: take out the potential threat, when the japanese bombed pearl harbor we kicked the **** out of them (excuse the lang.) and there were no more problems, i think if we do that to iraq then people will think "holy jesus jumped christ, the americans aren't afraid to take out the big guns!" and people would back off,

 

Do you have any idea on what you actually did to the civillians in Japan?

 

I'll give you a clue: Once upon a time there was a little girl named Yonanga. She lived with her parents in a small, cozy house with nice decoring. Each day she went to school, where she also met her friends. She was very interested in music and art, and she wanted to be a great musician someday. She was very good at school, and her parents were very proud of her. But suddenly one day, in 1945, she and her family died a terrible death, and all the dreams she have had were nothing more, neither was she, or anything she had ever lived for.

 

If you take this single tragedy, and multiplies it with 200 000, you are quite close to see how dreadful this action really was.

 

You must respect the value of each single human life.

 

, OUR military, the one that goes and fights wars and battles in other countries is what is allowing you to put up those signs and bad mouth your countries leader, it is the military that keeps us safe and allows us to live our lives,

 

Peace can be kept without military. Military is used for war.

And do not think that USA is the only country in the world where people are allowed to say and mean what they want.

 

if they OR we start a war, i'm joining the corps to go kick some ass, defend my country and the people in it,

 

So you mean that bombing civillian towns, killing innocents (always happens in war), and ruining the life of millions of people that hasn't done anything to deserve it, you will do that just because it will make you and your family feel a little safer? Sad... :(

 

 

well the japanese aren't tryin to fight us anymore are they?

 

No, it seems like they have grown more civilized than certain other countries.

 

 

This is my opinions, and NOT encouraging to flame war. I respect that every person have their own opinions, but I want people to actually mind the human value.

[Weapon X]

where are you from? i don't think you're from the states, if you are, do you not care about what happened at pearl harbor? or what about the attacks on the twin towers? what about those? if people in those countries don't want to be in the middle of a war then they should hot foot it out of there, yonanga met a quick death, and that was the purpose of the bomb, to kill many people and show our power and capabilities, so there's some clarification, the government wouldn't use something that powerful if they didn't mean to kill that many people, so i got you there, and what you said about people being kept w/o a military, no, if the US did not have any defenses we would be overrun and they WOULDN'T be able to put up those signs, so i got you there too, face it, my side of the argument is better

[Elijah]

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn

I'll give you a clue: Once upon a time there was a little girl named Yonanga. She lived with her parents in a small, cozy house with nice decoring. Each day she went to school, where she also met her friends. She was very interested in music and art, and she wanted to be a great musician someday. She was very good at school, and her parents were very proud of her. But suddenly one day, in 1945, she and her family died a terrible death, and all the dreams she have had were nothing more, neither was she, or anything she had ever lived for.

 

If you take this single tragedy, and multiplies it with 200 000, you are quite close to see how dreadful this action really was.

And this didn't happen to the people in Perl Harbor? or The Twin Towers?

The Japs are the ones who started the fight, they should have been redy to take the bullet back. The same with Bin Laden.

[Jedi_Monk]

There is absolutely no proof that Saddam Hussein is in league with Al Queda and bin Ladin. None. Bin Ladin gets whatever he deserves, but Hussein has done nothing to us, and the only reason we would attack Iraq would be because we want their oil. Saddam and bin Ladin are not the same, they are two totally different people and one is infinitely more of a danger to us than the other.

 

[ShadowTemplar]

Alot of people here seem concerned with the prospect of WWIII.

 

IMO we already have a WW on our hands.

 

"You are either with us or against us". Does that rethoric ring a bell?

 

Anyway, 11/9-01 NATO was attacked. Therefore NATO has been in war ever since (§5 I think). And NATO allied with Russia, China, and alot of other big states in that war, so it already spans the globe.

 

2)Look at INDIA and PAKISTAN. These 2 countries recently added nuclear weaponry to their arsenals and what do they do? They still creat conflict among themselves. Its a very real possibility that the first nuclear war will be between these 2 childish countries. As for IRAQ, we're not gonna fight them 'cause we think they're gonna launch a bunch of nucelar missles at us. What we're worried about is if Saddam Hussein manages to make nuclear weapons, there's a pretty good possibility he will give the know how, the resources, the expertise, and yes maybe an actual bomb to terrorists groups or states. Stopping him from doing this won't solve the whole problem 'cause there are others doing the same thing. But if you take him out of the equation (kill him or arrest him), well thats one "less" problem to worry about.

 

Regarding India and Pakistan: They are a problem. They are in a religious war, which means that they absolutly will not stop until every last one of them is dead. There is little that we can do about that, 'cept to prevent them from using nukes.

 

Correction: The first nuclear war was WWII.

 

Saddam hasn't got ICBMs, but fundamentalists are crazy enough to sail a boat into a harbor and arm a nuke in it manually. Besides: Launching a missile is like writing in big firery letters that can be read from here to the moon: I am right here, and I want to get my butt bombed so hard that my skull and my beard end up on different continents.

 

C'Jais: I think that the pretext for the Gulf War was actually Iraq invading Kuwait. Though you may very well be right about the motive.

 

And there is always the chance for a WW3 to break out. Obviously, Bush never think this far, since he has an IQ of about 90 (this is true).

 

I actually think that it is closer to 80 (I know for a fact that he is the El Presidente with the lowest IQ ever. And the secondlowest was... Right in one! His dad).

 

Bush also obviously do not know that a goverment change can be done without a war. For example Norway got free from Sweden simply because of politics (and Sweden was about double as large as Norway, and had a much greater army).

 

You are talking about the Kadmar Union, right? That was under Danish suprime rule. But I think that Sweden was in it too.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by ep2 Anakin

where are you from? i don't think you're from the states, if you are, do you not care about what happened at pearl harbor? or what about the attacks on the twin towers? what about those? if people in those countries don't want to be in the middle of a war then they should hot foot it out of there, yonanga met a quick death, and that was the purpose of the bomb, to kill many people and show our power and capabilities, so there's some clarification, the government wouldn't use something that powerful if they didn't mean to kill that many people, so i got you there, and what you said about people being kept w/o a military, no, if the US did not have any defenses we would be overrun and they WOULDN'T be able to put up those signs, so i got you there too, face it, my side of the argument is better

 

Well since you apparently haven't read my posts, i'll inform you once again. Osama Bin Laden does not hate us because of our religious freedom, nor our personal freedoms, he doesn't hate us because of our money (he has enough of his own) He hates us because we are the world's bully, pushing around the little countries when they do things that we dont like. Bay of Pigs for example, we had no right to try to start an uprising, but we tried anyways. And there was a south american country that tried to nationalize it's fruit fields, but we went in and overthrew their leader because it would have cost us the cheap labor we were getting from their citizens. Now i'm not saying that osama bin laden was justified in what he did. Not atall. But you should at least be informed of WHY this all happened in the first place. They were not completely unprovoked as most people think.

 

And Pearl Harbor, while unprovoked, was an attack on a military installation, they did not send in their bombers to New York City to kill as many people as they could. They were trying to cripple the millitary of a foe who would probably have ended up in the war anyways, and had enough power to pose a serious threat to them. So they made a pre-emptive strike.

[Breton]

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar

You are talking about the Kadmar Union, right? That was under Danish suprime rule. But I think that Sweden was in it too.

 

:tsk:

 

The Kalmar Union was made not long after the viking age and was a union wich Norway, Denmark and Sweden made. However, the swedes pulled out of the union pretty quickly, and as the years went by, it ended up as Norway being a part of Denmark. But then the Napoleon wars came. Denmark-Norway wanted to keep out of this war. But they had a large navy, and the Brittish was afraid that Napoleon might capture these boats, to use against Brittany. So the Brittish demanded the boats themselves. Denmark-Norway refused of course, but had to give in when the Brittish bombed Copenhagen for serveral days. From then, Denmark-Norway was on Napoleon's side. And when he lost, Denmark were forced to give Norway to Sweden, in 1814. Norway declared themselves free from Sweden in 1905.

[Elijah]

Originally posted by ET Warrior

Well since you apparently haven't read my posts, i'll inform you once again. Osama Bin Laden does not hate us because of our religious freedom, nor our personal freedoms, he doesn't hate us because of our money (he has enough of his own) He hates us because we are the world's bully, pushing around the little countries when they do things that we dont like.

Let me Infrom you that you have been Misinformed.

Bin Laden has attacked us with what is called a "Gie-Had" (sp?)

A Religious assult because so many Americans (like myslef) believe in jesus-christ, we are christians, and American was founded BY CHRISTIANS.

[Jedi_Monk]

Bin Laden has attacked us with what is called a "Gie-Had" (sp?)

A Religious assult because so many Americans (like myslef) believe in jesus-christ, we are christians, and American was founded BY CHRISTIANS.

I thought Bin Ladin's holy war was about getting us "infidels" out of Saudi Arabia, away from their holy cities of Mecca and Medina, and also about our support of Israel (which is currently in violation of quite a few UN resolutions, itself) But we just have to have a presence there (Saudi Arabia) because of all that oil. There's ino excuse for what Bin Ladin did, and police action (not randomly starting wars and hoping he gets caught by one of our bombs) has the narrow scope to find him.

 

We bombed the hell out of Afghanistan and what did it get us? Bin Ladin's alive, the Taliban seems to be coming back, our soldiers are being picked off by some very irate natives and the government we installed there is under serious threat. We "hit a beehive with a baseball bat." We just scattered the enemies and now they're swarming back and hate us more than ever.

 

War is not the answer to stopping terrorism!

 

Those who would become terrorists are desperate people, and the threat of use of force from us against their innocent countrymen may just provoke more of them into joining the terrorists network.

 

Think about this: after 9/11 how many people did you hear say that they wanted to join the army so that they could pay back bin Ladin for what he did to everyone in the Twin Towers? How many of you felt that way?

 

Now imagine what it would be like to have been an innocent civilian in Afghanistan and have your whole family killed in one of our bombing raids. Is it so amazing to you to think that they're just as human as we are, and that they would want to pay us back for all of the family members they lost? But Afghanistan's army isn't exactly up to par with ours, so what is this person going to do to get his vengeance? Maybe he's going to join a terrorist cell, and maybe we've just created a new terrorist, out for American blood.

 

It is hopelessness that is encouraging them to go out and end their lives and take as many of us along with them as possible. Hell no, Bin Ladin isn't justified--but why does he have such a following? Why are so many people willing to become his walking, talking bombs? Why do they hate us and what can we do to stop it? Killing their mothers, fathers, their brothers their sisters, their cousins, their grandparents, their aunts, their uncles, their friends... and destroying everything they know with indiscriminate bombing raids... what does that do to the psyche of a person? All they know of us is that we fly over them and drop death from above.

 

And why are you bringing Bin Ladin into a thread about attacking Iraq?

 

...so many Americans (like myslef) believe in jesus-christ...

Ironic. Who would Jesus bomb?

 

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by ZDawg

Let me Infrom you that you have been Misinformed.

Bin Laden has attacked us with what is called a "Gie-Had" (sp?)

A Religious assult because so many Americans (like myslef) believe in jesus-christ, we are christians, and American was founded BY CHRISTIANS.

 

An excuse for waging war against america because they hate us. They hate our support of israel, they hate our bully tactics. They hate us, not our religion.

 

I agree 100% with Jedi_Monk, as usual.

[Qui-GONE Jinn]

Like ET said, people don't hate you because you're free and believe in a different God. It's because of the way you bully smaller countries around (and indeed, who could stand against the might of the US?) and act as world police, as the big boy who can't seem to stop bugging the smaller children.

 

How many wars have been waged in the name of Jesus Christ, the most holy man who's ever lived? A man who didn't do anyone any harm for his entire life? How many people have been slaughtered by the hands of men, claiming superiority because they believe in Christ?

 

The fact that you believe in Jesus doesn't mean that you, or your religion is any better than anyone else's. A muslim isn't an animal, even though he's likely very different than you.

Fundamentalism however, in any religion is terrible, and makes people into animals.

 

Wake up, you Americans do not hold the fate of the world in your hands. And you know what? You've given far more beating, in any conflict you've been part of (and likely started, indirectly or directly, yourselves) than you've received.

 

Yeah, we feel sorry about the TT and Pear Harbor. But you know, most people in the world has forgotten it already. That you suffered losses, doesn't justify your actions and rapes against smaller countries. Don't remind us about 9/11 all the damn time, it makes you look like self-righteous sissies, 9/11 was terrible and we were all shocked. BUT it's in the past. Now, what we should do is try to make the world better, not worse. And improvements doesn't come by the sword.

With it's actions, the US is only gaining more enemies.

[ET Warrior]

I will repeat that i am in no way defending what happened on september 11th, that was a horrible day in american history, and something that no american will forget. But look at how war hungry we are.

WAR IS THE REASON TERRORISM HAPPENS.

You cannot fight a war against terrorism, it's not possible, because anyone can be a terrorist, all they need is a small explosive device and a public place to put it. To end terrorism we need to stop the things that cause people to be terrorists. This does not involve killing them. This involves being nice, helping them in times of need, not interfering in everything they do. Allowing them the way they want to live, not the way we think they should live. Not forcing their children to make our shoes and shirts and soccer balls for pennies a day. THIS would help more than a thousand nuclear bombs.

 

yet this has strayed far off-topic, the thread is not about terrorism. It's about Attacking Iraq. No, we should not go to war with Iraq.

[Clem]

ill say this again .... ive said it be4

 

this forum IS NOT MATURE ENOUGH to argue on these matters (gun control, war, terrorism etc.) maybe some of us are

 

but most are not

 

also, none of us are in posession of even as much as 10% of the info on this so we cannot make an informed argument

[Jedi_Monk]

also, none of us are in posession of even as much as 10% of the info on this so we cannot make an informed argument

After watching the House and Senate debate this issue, I can assure you, I know at least as much as they do. That's the problem with America today (well... one of many problems... but the one that's relevant to this discussion), the people think that their representatives are infallable and that we should just allow them to lead us wherever they want because they know best... but that's not democracy. If we don't like what our representatives are doing, we should be vocal about it... that is democracy.

 

[Clem]

even politicians have secrets kept from them

 

even they are victims of propoganda

 

they dont always say what they know .... or admit what they know .... only what will help them

 

also politicians twist facts in their favour

 

so if a senate debate is nething like a parliment debate you will only have heard the facts they know twisted

[Weapon X]

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk

After watching the House and Senate debate this issue, I can assure you, I know at least as much as they do. That's the problem with America today (well... one of many problems... but the one that's relevant to this discussion), the people think that their representatives are infallable and that we should just allow them to lead us wherever they want because they know best... but that's not democracy. If we don't like what our representatives are doing, we should be vocal about it... that is democracy.

 

 

i can almost gurantee you that you don't know "at least as much as they do" you probably don't even know half of it, it's not like they say "oh Jedi_Monk, here's all of the info that we have, go win online arguments" i didn't think so, so don't make lies to make yourself look smarter or to try to intimidate us into not arguing, it won't work, i said what i said and i stand by it, thanks zdawg for basically bein on my side, you understand at least, unlike some others on this board

[Elijah]

Don't remind us about 9/11 all the damn time, it makes you look like self-righteous sissies, 9/11 was terrible and we were all shocked. BUT it's in the past.

Oh, ok! Its really that easy to forget the blatant massacre of thousands of our countrymen.

 

Originally posted by ep2 Anakin

i said what i said and i stand by it

As Do I.

 

thanks zdawg for basically bein on my side, you understand at least, unlike some others on this board

They just don’t understand, killing a hundred people to save a million or more.

 

War is not the answer to stopping terrorism!

Oh? And what is?

 

Ironic. Who would Jesus bomb?

A Good question, but because I’m not the son of God, I can't answer that.

[acdcfanbill]

Lets keep the discussion a bit more civil, this is turning into WW3...

[C'jais]

Israel is as bad as Irak, hiding nukes and terrorizing the population, and USA hides nukes as well. Therefore, you're saying we should attack Isreal and USA as well?

 

Attacking Irak on the grounds of "We think he's hiding something, he's not gonna use it except if we attack, and we better make a pre-emptive strike" is a very bad idea. Basically, you invite everyone to refer to you as Tyrants and attack you on just the same premises.

 

Basically, NATO as a whole refuses this, but USA just wants to rush in and get it over with.

[Breton]

Originally posted by ep2 Anakin

 

i can almost gurantee you that you don't know "at least as much as they do" you probably don't even know half of it, it's not like they say "oh Jedi_Monk, here's all of the info that we have, go win online arguments" i didn't think so, so don't make lies to make yourself look smarter or to try to intimidate us into not arguing, it won't work, i said what i said and i stand by it, thanks zdawg for basically bein on my side, you understand at least, unlike some others on this board

 

So you think that you know all there is to know about it? You don't. No one does. I know what is told to me, by television, by books, by internet, and by other people. And through this, I have made an opinion. I strongly belive that you don't know any more than the rest of us. Unless you are some kind of 'middle east expert' or something.

 

Oh, ok! Its really that easy to forget the blatant massacre of thousands of our countrymen.

 

The past still don't give you the right to massacre thousands of Afghanians. Two wrongs don't make one right.

 

 

 

They just don’t understand, killing a hundred people to save a million or more.

 

If you could save a million people by killing a hundred, that would be nice, but it is far from what you are doing in the middle east. What you are doing is more like killing 5000 civillians, just to make the terrorists, who easily get away, even more angry and even more likely to perform more terrorist acts. And you still haven't got the real bastard behind it all. The "war against terrorism" is so far a failure.

 

As ET Warrior said, you can't fight a war againt terrorism.

 

It would be a better world if US was split up. Right now they are the worlds only "super power", and their goverment would never let anyone become another. This is why the US goverment think they can bully around with everyone, and get away with it. They show no responsibility for the rest of the world. For example they use lots and lots of money on bombs and weapons, but is still holding money back that they are supposed to pay the UN. Also, all international deals to generally create a better world (the Kyoto deal, human right thing, plus a lot of others) is refused by US, and that also makes other countries refuse, even though they was originally going to accept.

[Weapon X]

JM Qui-Gon, i NEVER said i knew at least as much as our politicians and the people in power who are making decisions like jedi monk did, i NEVER said that, don't put words into my mouth, i know i don't know the half of it so i'm not sayin i do, with that said: i think it was zdawg who mentioned the ji-had, he got you there, haha, you were all like "oh they never attacked us on the basis of religion, it's just that they don't like us and need an excuse" if that's true, then why can't we attack them just cuz we don't like them? in fact that's what we're doing, attacking them cuz we don't like them and masking it w/ "they have nukes" whatever:rolleyes:, the fact is, they attacked US CITIZENS, not a military instillation in NY and the pentagon was also to try to break the military, cuz that's where all the orders come from, basically the military's headquarters is the pentagon, and you know what? i'll bet none of you had family in washington when all this happened did you? i did, my uncle had the plane land 50ft. from him, he was in his office, and it killed one of his best friends, and even though they told him he could go home and talk with his family, he stayed to pull out bodies alive and dead, my aunt went missing for hours and noone had any idea where she might be, she has only an 8-9 yr. old little boy for family, imagine if she had been killed? i can tell you know when they mentioned the pentagon bein hit i had an adrenaline rush like a mother ****er, cuz my family was in danger, and that gives me the right to say go to war with them sons of bitches, cuz they need to be taken down one or two levels, and although no one in my family was hurt other than emotionally (my uncle only had like 1st degree burns on him, but it was all over, but he's a tough son bitch) i still have extreme hatred for everyone in afghanistan, if they don't want a war then they can leave that country, if they don't, oh well, they'll get somethin real soon, and i hope to be part of it

[C'jais]

Originally posted by ep2 Anakin

and that gives me the right to say go to war with them sons of bitches, cuz they need to be taken down one or two levels, and although no one in my family was hurt other than emotionally (my uncle only had like 1st degree burns on him, but it was all over, but he's a tough son bitch) i still have extreme hatred for everyone in afghanistan, if they don't want a war then they can leave that country, if they don't, oh well, they'll get somethin real soon, and i hope to be part of it

 

It does not give you the right to do anything, Anakin. If anger gave people some supernatural right to do something, then we already have eradicated each other in a blood frenzy.

 

The terrorists aren't using religion as their motive, but as their excuse. There's a big difference. Do you really believe that if Afghanistan was as rich as USA they would do it? No, they're using unequal treatment as their motive and utilizing religion as their excuse and make it seem like they have some divine right to do it.

 

Stick to the subject, this isn't about Afghanistan or 9/11.