Gameplay Suggestions

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

Maybe, but the hostility is out of 12 months of frustration of dealing with people who know nothing about game play mechanics dictating or in this case trying to dictate what constitute solid game play.

 

I know and agree. As said, I will be the first one to blow up idiots who come to all weapons servers whining about guns or "dishonourable" behaviour in general.

 

I'm just saying that some of you competetive people need to relax and be a bit more reasonable. Not all of us are out to ruin your fun by trying to turn JA into a RPG.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by Luc Solar

I think you competetive players are digging your own grave. (Even though this thread has remained remarkably flame-free)

You are so determined to squash anything resembling a "rpg noob" that it makes you look like zealots.

Stuff like "who cares if it's Star Wars or not and who the hell cares about immersion anyway?" is not likely something Raven will take seriously.

 

If someone comes out and says that they don't think it's Star Warsy to have a stormtrooper wear sweatpants you immediately counter that with "STFU & STFD RPG noob!Screw immersion! If you want stormtroopers to look like they do in the movies go play SWG. This ain't the movies this is a FPS U RPG noob."

 

There is a reason why licences to things like Star Wars, LOTR, NHL and F1 cost a ****load of money. Would NHL2003 be as fun if you were playing John Doe of the Atlanta Vulcanos instead of with and against players from real teams? That's immersion, not RPG.

 

A FPS and immersion can and should co-exist. If not, the game will suck.

 

Again, pretty much what I've been trying to say. There's no point in paying all that cash to license stuff when you're just going to piss it away by throwing it out the window when it comes time to design MP. I can understand how many competitive gamers suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder after what happened with JK2, but a lot of folks sound like they're giving knee-jerk reactions to the immersion thing.

 

Doctor Shaft, if you're the same guy who's posted on the AOTC:TC forums, then based on your posts there, it sounds like you're in favor of immersion.

 

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft on the AOTC:TC Forums

...if you changed your guns to a more AOTC feel, i.e. not a huge load of explosive balls of fire, pure gunners can still do well.

 

Now, assuming you're the same guy (and I'd be pretty surprised to find out that there are two Doctor Shafts running around on various JK2 related sites), THAT is what many of us so-called RPG n00bs are advocating for, or at least things along those lines. It sounds like, from your comments later in your post here, that you're for immersion too, you just don't want to push gameplay aside in favor of it.

 

You can still have an immersive experience and not do it at the expense of gameplay. No one's asking for gameplay to be pushed aside in favor of immersion. You actually can have your cake and eat it too; you can make a game that has both fantastic gameplay and immersive qualities. Now, total immersion, LIVING the movies, yes, that's best relegated to Star Wars Galaxies or something along those lines. But an FPS experience based on the Star Wars license really should look and feel like Star Wars, AND have great gameplay. Little extra things that don't add to or detract from gameplay should be removed. IE: emotes, as you pointed out, are pointless and can lead to problems in game.

 

Let's say Raven threw in a whole slew of emotes in JA. Let's also say that, based on their past history with things like the 1.03 patch, that performing the "kiss" emote made you temporarily invincible. People would start "kissing" their way across maps, exploiting the bug. That would ruin the immersion for people in-game, and having included the feature really wouldn't have added anything to gameplay itself.

 

Shock, that's how I view strafe jumping, if it gains you more speed. I don't see it as adding much to gameplay, and I find that it ruins the immersion. I know perfectly well how to do it, I just don't usually see the need. Now, that's also because I don't play competitively and don't usually come across someone else doing it, so I don't feel the need to do it myself. I trust my own abilities to maneuver without it, and usually those abilities serve me perfectly well. Whether it's been in the Quake engine since time immemorial or not, whether Carmack himself said it was a bug (he did) but decided to leave it in anyway (which he also did), it doesn't matter. My own opinion is that it's an exploit. Maybe it's an exploit that has been adopted by the community as a whole, but really I don't give a damn. It's still an exploit. If I'd been in Carmack's shoes, I'd have told people, "Kiss my ass. It's my game, I'll program it how I see fit. It's a bug and it's being squished now. Get used to it, learn, and adapt." If Raven DID remove it from gameplay (which they probably won't, anyway, so this is really a moot point), I'm sure that you and the other competitive players out there would learn, adapt, and adopt new strategies that would demonstrate your skills.

 

Regardless, whether strafe jumping is in or out, in thinking about it, I rarely see it on most public servers, so I suppose it won't make a ton of difference. Servers that are admined can always ban that type of behavior if they see fit. In the end, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the key to a good MP experience (once the actual gameplay itself is solid enough) is playing with like-minded people on servers admined by the same. You want strafe jumping in? Fine, leave it in. It's probably hard-coded into the engine anyway, so there's no more point in debating it. I continue to view it as a bug, albeit a bug that a lot of people seemed to want to have in the game. I'll play on servers that cater to my attitudes, and those who want to strafe jump 'til the cows come home should feel free to do so on servers that cater to their attitudes. As for other stuff with the engine, I maintain that you need not sacrifice immersion in order to get good gameplay. You can have both.

 

Oh, and one other point on immersion. From a legal standpoint, Lucasarts has a legal DUTY to control the quality of the content of their game and make sure that it's true to what people expect from a game with the Star Wars trademark on it. If they don't, they run the risk of doing what's called "naked licensing" and run the further risk of abandoning their trademark. Lucasarts will NEVER allow this to happen, so don't expect them to allow Raven to throw out all things Star Warsy in the pursuit of purest gameplay. Raven HAS to make the game appeal to Star Wars fans, both economically and legally, 'cause if they don't, Lucasarts will pull their license. Now, I don't know at what point Lucasarts would say "Ok, you've screwed up too much. We're pulling the license," but I can guarantee you that they won't permit Raven to throw out the Star Wars stuff.

[WD_Rage]

A Quote From Solo4114

Your idea re: the sabres isn't bad, though. I think you can still use the existing sabre system, as long as the moves are all either equal or pretty close in terms of damage. You can have complexity and still reward skill (IE: skill for learning how to navigate a complex system). I posted in the thread on Sabre Blocking a major overhaul of the sabre combat system (and probably went WAAAAY more in-depth than I needed to) that I think would still reward taking the time to learn the moves, but would also prove accessible to casual gamers who don't want to bother learning combos. It's not necessarily the best suggestion, just another possible way to do it. Because the post is so damn long, though (even longer than my posts in this thread -- can ya believe it???), I'm just going to stick a link in here. Anyway, just another potential system for how sabre combat could work.

 

On the contrary, the saber system is awful. Not to bring up the old saberist vs. gunner post wars of last year, but a good gunner (or even average gunner) will obliterate a good saberist. Even if the saberist got in close range to attack, the saber has about as much damage as a neon-colored wiffle bat. The red stance is rendered useless when going up against a gunner. The swing is mind numbingly slow and it slows down the saberist. In a duel, it is the same thing. Yes, timing can be achieved, but really - what is the use of having it? Drop it out, and leave the two faster stances. The saberists can still have their duels while also having a weapon to use against a gunner.

 

JK1 has a damage/balancing model that worked. Why stray from it? It worked a hell of alot better than JK2's model.

[Doctor Shaft]

Indeed Solo, this is the same Doctor Shaft. However, at the same time, you'll note my comment in my previous post.

 

If people want more immersion, that's where the mod comes in...

 

You are correct in revealing that on the AOTCTC mod forums I advocated more of an immersion effect. And, of course, I would say something like that... it's a mod.

 

However, when it comes to the general game, a game that follows the Dark Forces tradition (somewhat), and a game that depends on having servers filled with players, then I am not in favor of immersion. The general game, the one that will appease both the casual gamer and the competitive clans alike, is the one that needs to avoid immersion and concentrate on fast, killer gameplay. In short, it needs only mention that its a game based on a story from the movies, and that's it. After that, let fps carnage creavity spring forth, so that (hopefully) we do not experience a mass exodus of players, and then be left with a modding community that is about only 3 major projects strong, and countless websites that say "we are the l33t3st saber clan in the world, don't forget to bow to us".

 

So you're correct, it was the same Doctor Shaft who loves immersion, but I'm not for that immersion in the general game. Besides, the Aotc mod woudln't have a right to call itself that if it were simply a mod with the JO guns and mechanics followed by skins of the Ep2 cast. If that were the case, I don't think they'd be very credible. Of course, they are actually changing the game and immersing us in an Aotc-esque world, so it's fine. Cheers.

[WD_Rage]

Yet Another Quote From Solo4114

Oh, and one other point on immersion. From a legal standpoint, Lucasarts has a legal DUTY to control the quality of the content of their game and make sure that it's true to what people expect from a game with the Star Wars trademark on it. If they don't, they run the risk of doing what's called "naked licensing" and run the further risk of abandoning their trademark. Lucasarts will NEVER allow this to happen, so don't expect them to allow Raven to throw out all things Star Warsy in the pursuit of purest gameplay. Raven HAS to make the game appeal to Star Wars fans, both economically and legally, 'cause if they don't, Lucasarts will pull their license. Now, I don't know at what point Lucasarts would say "Ok, you've screwed up too much. We're pulling the license," but I can guarantee you that they won't permit Raven to throw out the Star Wars stuff.

 

JK1 was no where near the "naked licensing" that you speak of. People wanted a better Star Wars FPS, and they got it with JK1. Now, since we're talking of obligations and the companies involved, let's look at a few facts:

 

• JK1 was a very high selling game. It also had player backing for several years.
  
• JK2 was probably a high selling game, but lost 75% of the original gaming community with gaining very little new blood
  
• JK3 is most likely being made because of the sales of JK2, but yet will fail as most people scorned by JK2 will not buy unless there is a reason to (I am in this camp).
  

 

LEC has an obligation to me. JK1 was an extremely awesome game (it was THE only game I played for about 4 years until I finally picked up UT), yet JK2 was a pale shadow compared to JK1. They have an obligation to fulfill my wants for a decent game. The more they go down this road that was paved with JK2, the more money they will lose.

 

Regardless, whether strafe jumping is in or out, in thinking about it, I rarely see it on most public servers........

 

And you're surprised at this? 2 out of 3 servers are saber only servers played by the people that want to swing their wiffle bat wildly as if swinging a flyswatter in a fly storm. The 1 server that is not a saber server most likely hardly used. The former group of people won't strafe jump - their simplistic minds cannot even fathom it (hell, they coudln't fathom the thought of being able to counter DFA in 1.02). Saying that you don't see it in pubs is like saying you don't see model T cars on the road.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Solo4114,

 

I agree with practically everything you say. A Star Wars game should - in my opinion - try and immerse you to some extent in the SW universe - certainly far more than the current JKII MP does...

 

However...

 

I feel that the player and support base for JKII MP has become too used to QIII type gaming to accept anything else now. And that goes for JKIII too. The majority of the playerbase for JKIII will be those who currently play JKII - and they like a more QIII game than the kind of immersive game we are looking to have. Since immersion is not really a concern, if JKIII ends up altering even one part of the way THEY have learnt to play the game, that's gonna end up pissing them off.

 

In short, I think it's pointless trying to persuade people that a game which is more immersive could still have good gameplay. I think this is obvious, and most people on these forums are intelligent enough to know this.

 

I think the main argument from the 'non-immersion' crowd is simply -'Why mess with a good game which they enjoy'? And it's a good point. I can't fault it. The people who currently enjoy JKII enjoy it for some of the reasons us 'immersioners' want to directly change.

 

PLEASE NOTE: 'Immersion' rather than 'RPG'. Two TOTALLY different things!

 

Some people like to charge up their disruptor while doing a massive force jump - or strafe-jump away, spewing repeater fire in their wake. This is fun - sure. I can understand that.

 

...but this is NOT Star Wars - plain and simple. Please also accept this. This surely is obvious also.

 

So - the solution? THe 'immersioners' have no right to tell the current JKII MP guys what kind of game they should or should not enjoy. But, of course, those of us who want immersion surely deserve some kind of attention...?

 

To try and please both groups at the same game, Raven are gonna end up pissing off EVERYBODY and pleasing NOBODY. This I am sure of!

So, I think Raven have to stick with their current player-base -which is why I believe Raven will NOT be trying to get the game any more 'immersive' than it is now for JKIII.

Sure, there might be a new objective-based game type or something - which will be better. But all the basic issues us 'immersioners' see will still be there - I have no doubt about it...

 

So that leaves it up to the modding community to appease the 'immersion' crowd. THat's the way I see it anyway...

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by WD_Rage

On the contrary, the saber system is awful. Not to bring up the old saberist vs. gunner post wars of last year, but a good gunner (or even average gunner) will obliterate a good saberist. Even if the saberist got in close range to attack, the saber has about as much damage as a neon-colored wiffle bat. The red stance is rendered useless when going up against a gunner. The swing is mind numbingly slow and it slows down the saberist. In a duel, it is the same thing. Yes, timing can be achieved, but really - what is the use of having it? Drop it out, and leave the two faster stances. The saberists can still have their duels while also having a weapon to use against a gunner.

 

JK1 has a damage/balancing model that worked. Why stray from it? It worked a hell of alot better than JK2's model.

 

Actually, I was referring to the concept of having three different stances. Take a look at the thread I linked to and read the system I proposed. I'm advocating for really LETHAL sabres. 1 - 2 hits and you're dead. 3 hits at MOST, and those woudl have to be glancing blows. Have this be true for ALL stances. Then you could have the differentiation between stances come from how well they block each other and break through each other's defenses. Believe me, I don't want to see another nerf-a-thon with the sabres. I do think that you would probably want to speed up red stance overall, though. I can't remember which thread it was, but someone posted an idea where the red stance would actually swing fast, but the loss in speed would come from the recovery time. IE: swing, pause for .5 seconds (just a random number there -- insert whatever would work), then swing again. But the swings themselves would still be fast. I think that could work, especially if red stance was actually able to just utterly bash through defenses against, say, yellow stance.

[WD_Rage]

By RenegadeOfPhunk

Some people like to charge up their disruptor while doing a massive force jump - or strafe-jump away, spewing repeater fire in their wake. This is fun - sure. I can understand that.

 

...but this is NOT Star Wars - plain and simple. Please also accept this. This surely is obvious also.

 

I can't resist Who says it is not Star Wars? Is there a rule book that says "Thou shalt not strafe jump and fire [insert weapon here] barrages"?

 

For the record, I'm not a JK2 player. Yeah, I played the game for quite a few months. However, the game pushed me away from it. Instead, I am an advocate to return to the plan put forth by JK1 - which is obviously the better game (the player numbers alone tell that fact). My suggestions, arguments, and ideas are inspired by JK1 - the only game in the series to actually proved to be worth a damn.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk

{Summarizing Phunk here, with all due apologies}

 

1.) Immersion is good, but it ain't gonna happen. Too many people (and all that's left of the JK2 community) like gameplay to be more quake-esque.

 

2.) Immersion can be had and not at the expense of gameplay, but doing so will necessarily piss off those who like the quake style gameplay.

 

3.) Raven cannot cater to both groups, and so, will chose the folks who like quake style gameplay.

 

I don't know if I agree completely. I do think that a lot of the competitive gamers and the ones who remain in the game (disregarding the RPGers) like the Quake style, complete with strafe jumping, etc. But I still think Raven can create a game that will have kickass gameplay and be immersive. Not to the point where it's an RPG, that would be stupid. But to the point where a hardcore Star Wars fan will say, "Yeah! Now THIS is cool!!" for longer than the first two months of gameplay.

 

Also, as far as which group Raven will go with, I think that, much to the competitive gamers' dismay, Raven will probably choose the folks who are more into Star Wars, even if they aren't the ones currently playing JKII right now. They won't cater to the RPG crowd, mind you, but they will cater to the folks wanting a Star Wars FPS. Why? Because as big as the competitive community may be, and as large as the community of people still playing JKII (and not RPGing) may be, there are MANY more people out there who want a real Star Wars FPS. I think a lot of those people were driven away from the game, or became RPGers out of frustration at the lack of immersion. The folks who really do just want to RPG will go to Galaxies or Kotor (or both -- Kotor has no MP component), and that's probably a good thing. They won't go screwing up a good FPS.

 

But there are still PLENTY of people who don't post on these forums, who have left the game or never played it in the first place, and who want a real Star Wars FPS. Think about it. How many Star Wars geeks are out there? Now how many of them do you think are still playing JK2 AS AN FPS today? I'd bet not many. And I'd also bet that, while there's probably some overlap, a much larger number of them are not competitive gamers. Given the choice, on simple numbers alone, I think Raven will go with them. The competitive community in online gaming in general is huge, no question about it. It's also very important to the longevity of a game to cater to this community. But I'm betting that if it comes down to catering to the competitive community OR catering to the Star Wars fans, Raven will pick the latter because it makes more sense economically. Besides, they're your target audience in the first place. If they weren't, you'd just release a game without the Star Wars material.

 

Regardless, there's no reason why this must be an either-or situation. At this point, I hope Raven is able to actually produce a game that satisfies both camps, if only to prove it can be done.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

can't resist Who says it is not Star Wars? Is there a rule book that says "Thou shalt not strafe jump and fire [insert weapon here] barrages"?

 

I don't have to have any rule book. I just need a pair of eyes and a copy of the Star Wars films on video or DVD...

 

..come on Rage - you can do better than that surely? ( )

...sorry, couldn't resist!

 

Solo,

 

While I certainly hope you are right, I'm afraid I haven't seen any move towards our idea of immersion from any JKIII info I've seen, which is why I'm predicting what I have. Yeap, their adding dual-two sabers etc. etc. This is all good, but I don't see ANY mention of the stuff that you or I have talked about...

 

Until then, I'm assuming that JKIII gameplay is gonna be very close to JKII, but with some cool extra stuff in..

 

Which as I say, I can understand. Personally, I think it's too late for them to turn such a sharp corner at this stage.

 

And I think the only way to totally please BOTH groups of gamers would be to create actually 2 seperate MP games. It's just obvious that both camps in the 'leave-it-as-it-is' or 'make-it-more-immersive' cannot be pleased with the same game...

 

I agree with you about the people who aren't on these forums who would come out of the woodwork if the more immersive game was avaliable...

Both games could be just as competitive and enjoyable - and there would probably be many people who enjoyed both. But MANY would either play one or the other. Many if not most on these forums would NOT play the more immersive game.

 

I mean this is just my opinion - I could be wrong of course ( ), but that's the way I see it anyway...

[FatalStrike]

Are sabers going to be strong again or are they going to keep the weak crap they stuck us with in 1.04?

 

I don't want to bring back the ol' 1.02 v 1.04 debate but having played a few mods that strengthened the saber v weapons I felt that the game played a little better that way. What I don't want is another uber blocking system and lack of anything other then basic attacks.

 

There should be special attacks, there should be blocking, and there should be balance. Hopefully this time they don't achieve "balance" by weakening everything.

 

Oh yeah and better weapons would be nice. That gum ball cannon was strong but looked really stupid.

[Necrosis]

Ok, im gonna try and stay calm here, solo.

"No, I want a Star Wars FPS."

 

 

 

 

If you want a Star Wars FPS, there has to be room for copetitve players. Im sorry, but fps games are NOT ment for people who like to sit around and pretend that they are actually the character they are playing.

 

We are not trying to turn jk3 into q3, but think about it. There needs to be competion in a fps game. Is there one where there isn't?

 

yes, it needs a starwars enviornment (maps)

 

yes, there needs to be good saber combat

 

SAying that, there also has to be room for people who enjoy playing an actual FPS with guns instead of running around swinging a glowstick.

[WD_Rage]

I don't have to have any rule book. I just need a pair of eyes and a copy of the Star Wars films on video or DVD...

 

..come on Rage - you can do better than that surely? ( )

...sorry, couldn't resist!

 

Ok, then. According to your logic then the following things should be taken out of JK2:

• The saber stances: We all know a saber is do as much damage no matter the swing.
  
• Dark Rage
  
• Team Energize
  
• Team Heal
  
• Heal
  
• Drain
  
• Force Protection
  
• Mind Tricks (it's different in movies than in the games)
  
• Golan Arms
  
• Heavy Repeater
  
• Disruptor
  
• Mines
  
• Force Boons
  
• Wall walking
  
• Personal Shields
  
• Small bacta canasters
  
• Rocket Launcher
  
• Bryar Pistol
  
• Placeable Shield Walls
  
• Placeable turrets
  
• Flip kicking
  
• The entire plot of JK2 as well as the characters (except for Mon Mothma and Luke, of course)
  
• Any saber color other than red, green, blue, and only one purple per server.
  

 

Sounds like a damn fun game with only a ST blaster, a blastech blaster, crossbow, thermal dets, grip, lightning, absorb, and a saber! YEAH! Let's have a game like that! Whoooo hoooo! Then we'll have uber l33T immersion!

[makli]

Stick to the point - Gameplay Suggestions

[Prime]

Originally posted by Necrosis

If you want a Star Wars FPS, there has to be room for copetitve players. Im sorry, but fps games are NOT ment for people who like to sit around and pretend that they are actually the character they are playing.

If that was the case, then none of the FPSs would have an SP game at all. There would only be MP games. From what I have seen, JO was marketed mainly as an SP game. Not to say that MP isn't a major part, but JO certainly isn't just an MP game.

 

I have no problem with people playing for competative purposes, but don't say that the Dark Forces series is only for those that want to rake up frags, and not for those of us who want a little Star Wars immersion for a few hours. Why is my enjoyment of the game invalid?

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Well done Rage, that wasn't hard now was it! lol

 

At least now your not trying to say things are realistic to Star Wars when their not!

 

Discussions I don't mind engaging in:

'The current JKII MP is an enjoyable game with lot of cool powers to use and cool weapons to shot people with. Immersion - phmmf. Whatever. Isn't that important...'

 

Discussion I find pointless:

'Strafe-jumping, and force-users wielding renamed QIII weapons is perfectly in keeping with Star Wars'...

 

Please, get your argument straight.

 

if you think keeping the game true to the films will take away the fun for you, then JUST SAY THAT!

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind most of those things you've mentioned being taken out, although your innacurate on a few of them...

 

e.g. Jango Fett uses one rocket in AOTC...

 

But like I've already said, I have no desire to ruin your game for you, which is why I say you and I can't be pleased with the same game - as far as I'm concerned, it's just not possible, as is evident from this discussion...

[WD_Rage]

Now you are putting words in my mouth that I have never said or implied. I encourage you to read up.

At least now your not trying to say things are realistic to Star Wars when their not!

Please tell me what I have said that is realistic in the Star Wars movies and games.

 

In essence, I have said, "Immersion - phmmf. Whatever. Isn't that important," which falls into your category of discussion you do not mid engaging in. A game with great game play and a setting of Star Wars (weapons, maps, etc), that is all the immersion that I, and most of the droves that left JK2, need and want. JK1 made that mold. Raven failed to follow it. To have full immersion would be to have an RPG. This is an FPS-based series using an FPS engine - get the RPGness out.

 

Discussion I find pointless:

'Strafe-jumping, and force-users wielding renamed QIII weapons is perfectly in keeping with Star Wars'...

I have never said or implied that statement. Again, I encourage you to read up. I made more arguments against strafe jumping than for it.

 

Please, get your argument straight.

I have. I have been completely consistent with my points and arguments.

 

if you think keeping the game true to the films will take away the fun for you, then JUST SAY THAT!

Why? Many of my posts imply it. Unless you have a problem with finding correct implications, you should not have a problem with where I stand on what issues.

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind most of those things you've mentioned being taken out, although your innacurate on a few of them...

 

e.g. Jango Fett uses one rocket in AOTC...

Then there is an RPG heading your way. As for the mistake, yip yip yip yip yahoo.

 

But like I've already said, I have no desire to ruin your game for you, which is why I say you and I can't be pleased with the same game - as far as I'm concerned, it's just not possible, as is evident from this discussion...

I am quite positive that we cannot be please with the same game. I want game play over anything else (any game sucks without it). If I am going to spend $50 on a game, I damn well better get my money out of it.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by Necrosis

If you want a Star Wars FPS, there has to be room for copetitve players. Im sorry, but fps games are NOT ment for people who like to sit around and pretend that they are actually the character they are playing.

 

We are not trying to turn jk3 into q3, but think about it. There needs to be competion in a fps game. Is there one where there isn't?

 

yes, it needs a starwars enviornment (maps)

 

yes, there needs to be good saber combat

 

Saying that, there also has to be room for people who enjoy playing an actual FPS with guns instead of running around swinging a glowstick.

 

Absolutely. I agree with your words 100%. FPS games are definitely not meant for people who want to sit around and "become" a character. Could it be done? Well, yeah, probably, but it would definitely detract from the FPS experience. I mean, if you want to run around thinking "I am Jedi Master Qui Gon Dingleberry, I was born 50000 years ago, the product of wookie and jawa genetic engineering, blah, blah, blah", well, knock yourself out, but don't be surprised when someone slices you to ribbons or yells "catch!" and chucks a thermal detonator at you while you try and explain your life story. That's role-playing in an FPS environment and it really just doesn't fit. Someone could make a hybrid FPS/RPG, but that's not what this game is, nor should it be.

 

And you're right. There DOES need to be competition in an FPS. All FPS's are based around that, either in a team sense or an individual sense. The goal is to either score points for your team or frag as many people as you can so you end up at the top of the score list. No question about it. The goal is NOT to get experience points, gain funky new abilities, acquire extra loot, and bring all of that with you to the next game you play. Again, that'd be an RPG, not an FPS. I have no problem with competition either.

 

The environment, as you suggested, should be true to the films, especially in the design of the maps. To a lesser degree, the weapons and overall fighting systems that we see in the films should be emulated. Not slavishly copied, mind you, just emulated to the point where, while you're playing, you think "Ok, that's not totally out of left field. That's pretty close to what I've seen in the films."

 

There does need to be good sabre combat, absolutely. That was one of the key failings of JK2, along with some flaws in the force system. Those things not only made the game less able to be played competitively, but also detracted from the sense of immersion.

 

Guns are also essential to any Star Wars game, both from a gameplay perspective and an immersion perspective. If there were no guns in this game, I'd be rather disappointed, because guns are, as far as I'm concerned, one of the major aspects of any decent Star Wars game. I'd like to see guns that are both fun to play with AND that evoke the Star Wars environment. Maybe that means more blaster based weaponry, maybe it means that the projectiles should look or move a little differently, maybe it means the models and sounds should be tweaked. I'd need to think about that for a bit. That's something I'd actually enjoy discussing and hearing suggestions on, though.

Anyway, I think that, at least as far as you and I are concerned, we're not as far apart in our opinions as it might seem at first glance. We both want a fun game, and fun necessarily means competition in an FPS. We both seem to believe that there should be good sabre combat and the feel of the Star Wars universe in the game, but not at the expense of good gameplay. Setting aside the issue of sabre combat and force powers, I'm curious as to what you'd do with the guns, whether you'd change them, leave them the same, etc. And how does the competitive community in general feel about the existing guns? If Raven were to change them, what aspects of the guns would you want preserved and/or changed?

[BloodRiot]

Somebody wake me up as soon as this discussion leaves the start point.

 

or is this a lap race??? i think i've read the same thing about a dozen times.

 

The answer to your endless and looping situation.. is what a server admin wants to do with his own server. The game is fit for everyone to play as they like.

 

I've stated before that I'm not totally on either's side... sometimes i just go into a JA mod server and do some 1 vs 1 duel... other times.. i totally enjoy getting on an igib mod server and frag away... what do i do??? i hook up to diferent servers to accomodate my present mood.

 

That's the answer plain and simple... both sides even agree that we need a better saber gameplay... amen to that... what's the deal with strafe jumping? i think it's fit for a game if it allows more moves. just join a server that meets your playing style.

 

Fer pete's sake let's move on.

How many of you have realized that if the game goes one away or the other exclusively, that it will be indeed poor? How many of you haven't grasped the idea that the game can incorporate features to the likings of all? Immersioninsts use emotes... competitve types use strafe jumping.. nbody forces anyone to use a techinique or feature they dont want to use. Hell... i never pick dark rage as a force power and it has been there since the release. Grow up people.

[Necrosis]

Originally posted by Prime

If that was the case, then none of the FPSs would have an SP game at all. There would only be MP games. From what I have seen, JO was marketed mainly as an SP game. Not to say that MP isn't a major part, but JO certainly isn't just an MP game.

 

I have no problem with people playing for competative purposes, but don't say that the Dark Forces series is only for those that want to rake up frags, and not for those of us who want a little Star Wars immersion for a few hours. Why is my enjoyment of the game invalid?

 

 

dude, how could you get competiton In SP? SP is for storyline, and for those who may want some more adventure in the game. Or maybe the person has no acess to the internet. And btw, I was only talking about MP since that is all I played

 

But an fps needs to been competitve. You can have your star wars items/environment, but may not play it as an rpg around me.

 

Any ideas for new force powers?

 

back to gameplay suggestions, sorry

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Look Rage, I know it probably sounds like I'm trying to be an arse, but I replied the way I did because of the inital tone you used with me.

 

I apoligise for reacting the way I did...

 

It was mainly the The 'OK - I can't resist' comment that did it - as if I had made some n00b mistake in daring to critizise something like strafe-jump...

 

Look, strafe-jump isn't actually THAT big a deal to me. It just bugs me a bit that even daring to mention that stuff like that might not be nessesary is like some kind of heresy or something!

Strafe-jump is just an example of this though. I'm not obsessed with it! Just with the principle that if somebody chooses to say 'Hey, maybe it would be better without that', their not treated like that's the dumbest idea they've ever heard!

 

But what is really confusing me now is this...

 

I can't resist Who says it is not Star Wars? Is there a rule book that says "Thou shalt not strafe jump and fire [insert weapon here] barrages"?

 

SURELY what your implying here is that - in your opinion - strafe-jump does not conflict with the star wars 'feel of the game -correct?

And yet you've said later that you never implied any such thing?

 

I'm not trying to fight with you anymore. I'm just trying to understand you! Could you please clarify what you meant by the first statement?

 

Your probably a decent guy Rage. At the end of the day, we just have different opinions about a game. BloodRiot is right, let's put the boxing gloves down

 

I think what sums our opinions up is this comment:

 

Sounds like a damn fun game with only a ST blaster, a blastech blaster, crossbow, thermal dets, grip, lightning, absorb, and a saber! YEAH! Let's have a game like that! Whoooo hoooo! Then we'll have uber l33T immersion!

 

That's EXACTLY the kind of - whats the word - 'minimalist' game that I think would be great! lol

What you find absolutely lame, I find great! That's not nessesarily a problem, that's just proving that it takes all kinds to make the world!

 

And BloodRiot, I think this comment kind of backs up my point of view about needing two seperate games if you were gonna try and cater for both groups effectively...

 

You say you can find servers that are to your tastes. That's fair enough, but I haven't found a server that meets my tastes, because my tastes aren't catered for in the current MP game, and I SERIOUSLY doubt they will be in JKIII either.

 

But I'll say again - I'm not actually complaining! I can understand why the game turned out the way it did, and the way JKIII will do. That's why it's lucky I'm a modder so I can make the game play the way i want to and not try and make Raven make a game that will piss off a lot of people here - as I've said already...

 

The only reason I posted in this thread in the first place was to say - ok, JKIII won't end up exactly how I'd wish it, but at the end of the day I'm OK with that.

 

Someone like Rage would literally HATE to play in the kind of game he's just described, which was restricted to only stuff which has been seen in the movies. And I don't blame him. It's a free world - he'll like what he likes and I'll like what I like...

 

Now, yes, you can have options and cvars up to the wazoo to try and cater for everyone's tastes - and that works to an extent, but to THIS extent?

Do you really think my mod and the normal MP game could really be the same thing with a bunch of cvars inbetween...?

 

ANd think of the development time needed. Your basically trying to cram two games into one!!

 

Personally, I don't think these two extremes can live side-by-side in the same game, and I think if Raven actually did decide to try and fully please both groups, it would end up as a disaster!

 

But - as always, this is just my opinion. We'll see what happens I guess...

Sorry if I got worked up everyone... :/

[leXX]

Ok, this topic is done and dusted. It seems it's just discussion now, and the same suggestions are being repeated time and time again. I asked for the argument about strafe jumping to stop, but still it continues.

 

Thread closed.

[The Truthful Liar]

Thread unlocked.

 

I'll be watching this very closely from now. Any posts that aren't related to this thread will be automatically deleted without questions asked. Posts which pertain semi-useful suggestions as well as spam will be edited.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Necrosis

dude, how could you get competiton In SP? SP is for storyline, and for those who may want some more adventure in the game. Or maybe the person has no acess to the internet. And btw, I was only talking about MP since that is all I played

Cool, I wasn't sure if you were trying to say that SP was a waste of time and JO should be only an MP game. I got the game for SP, and MP is a nice bonus. To each his own.

 

Originally posted by Necrosis

But an fps needs to been competitve. You can have your star wars items/environment, but may not play it as an rpg around me.

I hate MP RPGers. So you don't have to worry about that with me

 

Originally posted by Necrosis

Any ideas for new force powers?

 

back to gameplay suggestions, sorry

Indeed, back to the topic at hand. I sort of think that Force power should be as few and simple as possible, but let them have a wide range of uses. Force example, Move Object or something could be used to push and pull people, lift objects, pull switches, and so on. Just a thought...

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I've often wondered about CTF maps which are physically easier if you use teamwork, ie one person use force to lower/raise a bridge, so that another player can take a shorter route to the flag.