Saber blocking, manual, or automatic?

[Tesla]

I will just say in a game like this with a weapon as powerful as a lightsaber (i.e it can cut through things) your gonna concentrate more on trying to chop up your opponent arent't you than waisting time trying to block as i said before (look up thread)

[Taos]

I think they should keep it automatic. If it is manual....it becomes too much and it really isn't a game anymore IMO. Too much realism is a bad thing......I think.

[eastcoast2895]

I think Leemu Taos has a really good point. This is a game, if i really wanted to sword fight i would get a sword, not that i'm saying i think manual is bad or anything (look at prev post for side), but it is a game and sometimes i just wanna have fun and get lazy, and manual blocking does not allow me to be lazy, but then again sometimes i do want a challenge, but what ever raven will do what's best for game play, which ever it is.

[AlzWisHum]

But it wouldn't be a bad thing having both would it?

[Silent_Thunder]

Well, about the "Its just a game, I don't want to think aspect":

 

I won't try and tell you what kind of gameplay is best suited for anyone in particular, or what kind of game system is best overall, but if you really just want to sit back and be lazy in a computer game set in the Star Wars universe, then why don't you just play KotoR or SWGs? Where does it become "too much work" or too little?

 

Anyways, I think most people in favor of automatic blocking misunderstand the logic behind manual. You see, it isn't there to make things harder or more complex for the sake of realisim. We wouldn't be having a discussion about sabers if that were the case.

 

No, the reason for it is to make the outcome of saber duels less random, and based around calculated, strategic moves. Remember, in multiplayer, you can't just stand around laziliy to win. You have to exhort some kind of effort to win in multiplayer. Why not go the extra step and remove the frusterating randomness of automatic blocking in multiplayer? Surely that would make the game 'easier' in the sense that you spend more time having fun, and less time saying; "WTF I blocked that motherf$@#er!".

 

Also, don't get me started about the "in real life, evasion is always superior to blocking argument". First of all, these are lightsabers, and our only definition of lightsabers are what we see in the movies. In the movies ATLEAST 90% of the battles between two lightsaber wielding opponents CLASH sabers when they strike. Very rarely will you see a true evasion. Also, in real life, fights are usually won or lost within 20 seconds of its initiation. In Star Wars lightsaber battles can last 5 minutes or more in continous action, sometimes without a victor!

 

And in real life, blocking attacks (wether with the sword or in martial arts) can be just as, or more effective than evasion. When you block an attack you can either take all their energy that they put into their attack, and use it against them (Yin blocks in Kung Fu [san Soo]) by going *with* their attack; taking their balance, or you can absorb and destroy their ability to inflict damage with a block that is directly putting power against power (Yang blocks). Although evasion in martial arts can be effective you don't really take any of their energy away by evading an attack. It just sets them up for a second attack of the same power (that is unless you take them out before they have a chance).

 

But in Jedi knight games a manual block would be little more than a player-initiated auto block. Meaning you don't aim the block like a regular strike, or even necissarily time it perfectly. You just simply tell the computer (by pressing the secondary fire key) when you want to block, and the rest is left up to randomness (though much less than pure autoblocking).

 

Really, in my opinion, manual blocking would not only add a huge dimention to multiplayer (and single player) if done correctly, but it would also make the battles MUCH more like true Star Wars lightsaber battles, and less like jousting contests.

[Silent_Thunder]

On a similar subject, am I the only one that thinks its cazy having saber throw as the secondary fire? I mean, really, we see it done in the movie once, and in an extreemly ineffective manner (sorry Lord Vader!). And all of a sudden 'throwing away' your offence, and defence becomes one of the most damaging moves around! It becomes waaay overused I think. I think it should be used for limited occasions, such as when someone is running away.

 

Maybe I'll just play with the lightstaff then... atleast they get kicks on secondary fire instead of saber throw.

[eastcoast2895]

i agree with you that manual block would cause better more intense fights, which would be great. that's why i want both.

 

i can also see your point as secondary fire being saber throw being not as good as binding something else. actually i am beginning to believe a manual block being on secondary fire being better since it deals w/ saber combat more than saber throw which is more a force power like lightning or choke. if there is a manual i completely agree that it should be secondary, i don't even use saber throw, so w/ manual block there i would have more fun.

 

looking at my former post, my example about wanting to really fight with a sword and stuff was over the top, i was trying to much to argue auto.

 

but all in all i believe auto block is like auto aiming. some people want it cuz it makes it easier and they can enjoy the game more and some want it off cuz it is harder and they can enjoy the game more. i really think it should be an option that can be turned off and on. which i would most likely choose manual (still want the option of auto though).

 

and my comment about its a game and not wanting to think, i'm just saying that if things get to complicated it won't be fun, that all wasn't trying to say your idea was bad or anything. In fact Silent_Thunder your idea of manual block is the same as mine, and hopefully they will put it in like that, but making it the only choice of blocking is kinda unfair to the players who want auto block cuz it is a game that is suppose to fun for everyone. I guess i am afraid that manual block would have to be done in a way that it would require pressing more than one button.

 

oh yeah just to defend kotor and swg (i won't probably play either) but in my experience rpgs use strategy in fights knowing which action to do (i.e. fight, heal, etc.) so it wouldn't be as lazy as i am (nothing will be that lazy cept maybe garfield).

 

strange i appear to be on a different side than you, Silent_Thunder, even though my first post was agreeing w/ your thoughts on manual.

 

oh yeah just so no confusion:

i want manual and auto block.

manual would be fun, as long as it doesn't get complicated

auto should be there for ppl who want it

[Khaza]

Very nice suggestions there Silent Thunder! IMO the current automatic blocking feels like cheap autoaim.

 

OK.. here is my idea of blocking system:

 

- Possibility to choose between auto and manual

 

- Automatic must be weaker than manual and is designed for all inexperienced padawans out there

 

- Manual for serious fighters that want to have full control over their saber and thus little better but need pressing secondary fire everytime you want to block

 

- No attacking while defending

 

- Move saber throw to force list if using manual blocking

 

 

(voted for manual)

[AJL]

I think it should be automatic like in JK2 but even more

"automatic..." It should be extended to work also when

attacking (or not really during the attack but during the

move from ready position to attack start position...)

 

--------------------------------------

 

And when blocking projectiles:

1. when you do nothing that saber will only stop that

projectile or slash it to some random direction...

 

2. when you actively slash that projectile it still doesn't

go back to it firer but it goes to that direction where you

are looking (so when you slash it back you can aim it a

little..)

 

(but when you slash it back there is risk that you slash

too early which will cause that you don't block it at all)

 

--------------------------------------

 

And when blocking other saber:

1. when you do nothing that saber will simply stop or

knock that other saber back...

 

2. when you slash it you may get in to saber "lock" which

is not exactly like that normal total lock but this lock can

happen in many different ways and you can always

backoff from it by releasing that attack button

and retreating...

[Silent_Thunder]

Sorry if I sounded at all hostile in my last post Eastcoast2895 .

 

I actually kind of agree with you about adding manual and automatic blocking... But it would be hard to build the game around BOTH kinds of fighting, I think. It would really change the gameplay a lot to switch between the two in an option on the fly. Not that it couldn't be done that way, though.

 

One way they could implement both Auto, and manual blocking is to give auto block for padawan and jedi difficulty, but give manual blocking to jedi knight and jedi master difficulty (provided they use the same difficulty system). That way those who want it a little easier, and just want to have fun and not worry about 'too' complicted saber combat can have it. Those who want to play the game on a harder setting, and want to worry about more intense saber fighting can have it. In multiplayer this could be an option that could be toggled on and off for the host.

 

Another option would be to make different saber stances have different degrees of auto or manual blocking. For example, let's say they implement all 8 saber stances. Here is how each could work in terms of blocking:

 

Form 2 would have completely no auto blocking, since it focuses on precise saber 'fencing'.

 

Form 3 focuses on pure defense, so it would be totally automated in saber blocking -- like you see in JK and JKII.

 

Form 4 has alittle of form 2 and 3 mixed in, so it would have limited auto blocking, but also include limited manual blocking for the times when you want to have better blocking ability.

 

And etc, etc, for the rest of the Forms. Obviously each would have other strengths and weaknesses, but you get my idea .

 

In reality though, I think its already a lost cause for me to wish for manual blocking... I think the recent interview has already stated that JA would return with the "same auto blocking" system as in JO -- and I can only hope they're misinformed. This late in the developent leaves little room for and changes to the core systems.

 

Ahwell, there's always JKIII .

[Matariel]

i thought of the idea of manual blocking way back when i bought JK2, when i read the manual. I mistakenly got the impression that you had to block manually by pressing attack and the direction of the attack. I was wrong, but i thought it would be a really really cool idea.

Theres nothing worse that being stuck underneath a Red stance overhead where you cant do squat to avoid it, with "Matariel's Patented Saber Combat System™©" as described in 2 other threads in the forum, but more clearly here: Saber Combat

 

You can successfully block and counter the move! Like in JK2 SP, where the blocks and counters were part of the AI, JA running "Matariel's Patented Saber Combat System™©" will allow for realistic saber fighting techniques. I go for realism to the movies over anything, its more fun, especially in duels, to taunt the enemy and have lots of blocks similar to the duels featured in the movies. The movies dont have ppl hitting each other every two seconds like some saber-nutters ive seen.

Some may say that this is 'boring', especially in DUEL game mode. I think its quite the opposite, it shows real skill to fight in this manner, and i'd bet anything that it would be really entertaining to watch, just like the best part of any Star Wars movie is the saber fight sequences.

 

Ive said this before, but if the final game doesnt have a manual blocking system, i'll code it myself, you have my personal assurance or that.

 

(just a note, i havent registered my saber combat system as a trademark, nor have i copyrighted it...so if the Raven guys wanna use it, by all means do it, just gimme a shout via email if you wanna talk about it)

[RpTheHotrod]

I'd say, depending on your "skill points" in saber defense. it should auto defend a bit, but by FAR not as well as manually blocking.

 

You should also be able to block a certain angle. IE, if they are vertical slashing at you, you should be able to hold your saber horizontal to block.

 

In other words, you're in a fight with maxed saber defense. You will auto-block occasionally, but if you actually hit a block key and aim your saber towards theirs (horz vs vert)...your block has a MUCH higher chance of being successful. All in all, you're survival would depend on actual saber skills, not random chances. Auto-Block would be enough to help get a "lucky block"

[HertogJan]

Exactly, let the amount of force points you put in saber defense decide how effective your automatic block is.

 

On the highest level, it should block laser bolts etc. automaticly, and stop some of the saber strikes. But you'll havbe to block manually (2nd mouse button) against most saber strikes/swings. I think there's no point in manual blocking against laser bolts, especially in SP. Look at how Obi Wan reflected those lasers from the droids in EPI!!

 

I think that as an experienced Jedi, with lots of experience points in saber defense, you shouldn't have to worry about lasers being shot at you, you're way past that. You only have to worry about attacks from behind or saber weilding opponents...

[Mero Vilul]

Manual block of course.

 

* Press secondary fire and you block. If you run while blocking you will be penalised, let's say it's only 50% chance of blocking while running. When walking it's 100%, if you aren't facing the opponent with your back that is. Everytime something is blocked you need to press and hold the secondary fire again. Secondary fire can only be held for about 3 seconds before you need to repress it.

 

* I thought about having the idea that blocking will open up the opponents defense for you, but that would be bad for gameplay. You would both be there standing until someone got tired of waiting and therefor tried a blow and the other guy blocked and countered a deadly blow. Attackers should not be penalized that badly so the defender always get the upper hand because countering is to effective. Let's say that it's a 10% chance when you block that your opponent will get a "penalty" and open himself for a easy hit. Don't you think people on servers would be standing there blocking until that situation happened and get a easy hit? Then wait again and again... The one attacking should have the upper hand...

 

* Holding block button and pressing backwards (when a strike is coming from the rear) means you will block the blow from behind.

 

* Someone not blocking when the opponent strikes a hit on hes saber will mean the player gets "JK2 stunned", with that I mean the saberclash when both players saber do a recoil animation in JK2 when clashing together. The Attackers saber will continue it's swing though, so he can still score a hit. If you just stand there waiting and not READY for a block you wont be able to withstand the force of something coming right at you, so YOU are penalised.

 

Edit: Using block would take away a SMALL amount of force, not more than one small dot (if parrying red stance, smaller if blue/yellow), but if you just emptied your force pool from spamming lightning, you wont be prepared or in right condition to block a fully force hitting user coming right at you for the next 1-2 seconds or so. Swinging your saber should take a little force to, these Dark/Light Jedis focuses their force and such to make all these great moves and to be able to foresee and counter the opponent. But as I said, the attack should be rewarded again so if you stand there blocking successfully for half a hour you will have less force than the attacker left. These are only SMALL amounts of force-cost. But it would mean blue spammers would need to rest once in a while and the like.

 

Oh well, gotta go, just some ideas I had.

[Guest Jolts]

For blocking blaster fire in automatic system obi wan for xbox got it down pretty well. You block anything in your fov, but to return the shot back at the attacker you had to pull back on the thumb stick which was the block command and then the shot would be returned to the enemy that fired it. It used up mana so after a few shots you had to wait for your manan to recharge.

 

As for duels, if you sat there a tried to let the blocking system save you the ai, or anthoer player would just kick you, or do a low attack or force powered attack and eventually beat the crap out of you. To stun someone in you had to wait for them to attack, then pull bakc on block that would cause them to recoil then you could move in for an attack.

 

I think both systems were good, but not the best solution, but still made for better fights than JO. If you knew what you were doing you could drop someone in 30 seconds, if you were new to the system you make a fight last 10 minutes.

[nova_wolf]

Best thing is to give the option.

 

If it is dead set one or the other, its only gonna be the 'Patch 1.X' arguement all over again!

 

Would be nice to try though, although the vets amongst us should be aware that it is already available in JKII if you know the right console command(s).

[eastcoast2895]

it chill Silent_Thunder, we were having a discussion and trying to argue our sides, no beef.

I imagine auto block would be a complete server option cuz this would make it so players all would have or won't have and make it even and noone can complain about over use. i also think taking away force power for blocking should be a time scale or something so it can't be overused, and if a person does use an entire force mana blocking something should happen cuz blocking that long shouldn't really happen if it takes it away really slowly.

[HaruGlory89]

Option for both! But I'd prefer automatic. It would be very,very hard to both attack and defend using the SAME button. However, it would be nice for a seperate button for both attack and defence.

[Agen]

Ahh.. i played jedi power battles alot of times, but it isn't really recognizable down on paper(?) since i thoguht it was kind of frantic and anyway... for everyone who is against, think of the way it works, if thery fire you need to click the block button just in time to save your self which, parrys them or or knocks em back a bit then you attack back - maknig it more movie liek (even though i don't really care about that at all) and much more fun and interacting imo .... It woudi be a great quick click system i think where button mashing cannot win.

That's MHO anyway

Of coruse there would be two seperate buttons, prob prim and sec. isntead of sab throw.... that could jsut go bury itself in the neutral power list.

[Deadeye]

I read some of the posts but I did not have the patience to read them all up to this point. I had an idea mainly for single player, about the sabers. If anybody played with that mod that had the two meters on each side of the screen. Each one was constanly fluctuating as your reticle aim improved or degraded. It basically told you what your odds of connecting with your saber offensively or defensively. I thought that was an interesting idea, but a bit cumbersome in practice. I thought it might be cool if you had one meter that only told you about your defensive capabilites. I also suggest that there be a block button. This would be cool b/c you could ignite the saber, and be in idle state, then hold down or hit the button to take a ready posistion. -This would allow for some cool idle, ignition, poses. Anyway, here how it goes. You walk up to an enemy saber weilder. Stop and whip out your hilt. In a cool stlyized way, you hit the ignite button. You stand there idle in a rather badass-looking stance,which will look more badass as you become a better jedi. At the beginning of the game you guy might look a tad bit timid when faced with another jedi. Later on he gets more confident looking. If you walk up to the other jedi and he's rather aggresive, you can hold down the block button and you will have this really sweet, fast-paced, clash, clash, clash. With each block the defence meter goes down. Each stance dishes out more "damage" to that meter. When this meter is depleted (I figure 4-6 hits with blue stance to kill it), you have to parry, or back flip or, actually take an offensive swing, b/c the next swing is going to connect with your player. If you do decide to take an offensive swing and your meter is gone, you might still contact his saber for a block, but you will be more likely to be knocked away. I also suggest that this meter recharges very quickly. Sorta like a jetback meter does. Unlike that mod, you can easily keep tabs on your defensive capabilites, and it can allow for a a bit of strategy in saber combat. -not too much mind you. What it also allows for is a nice bit of wickedly fast saber combat with clashing sabers, but it limits the newbie button mashing method of getting that. If you do just stand there with the block button held down it would go like this. Block! Block! Block! Block! Block! Saber-knocked away, and bam! you're dead! (or really damaged) Also the AI should have their own meters (not visible to the player) That way you might come on aggresively and they have to block it all and then they might spin away like Obi-Wan did in E1 against Darth Maul. The only thing that the block button/meter does is let you quickly and easily plan you moves. You might hit him with a red stance hit and it will completely drain the meter, then switch to blue stance, and take him out while his saber is knocked away. In multi-player you have to watch out not to try to block some of those red stance swings. After the long slow swing, you might be able to hit him blue. I could go on and on trying to exemplify everything, but I have thought about most of the complaints about the combat, what with the patched and all. I really think that at the very least this will give single player jedi-jedi combat a real sence of urgency, and intensity. By not knowing your enemy's defense meter, you have to only keep track of yours and just look for that opening. Think of it this way. You hit the guy many many times, and you think that any second now he'll be "tired" and his blocking might falter (meter is empty) It causes you to look for or anticipate an opening, just like in real sword combat. When your enemy's meter is out he might roll to the side, spin away, of back flip outta there, and you would be like, "damn! he parried" So you have to get back in there. This time, he's coming on strong so you have to do some blocking. But you deiced to roll to the side after your meter is halfway down, and you strike him down from the side. With the additions of some simple combos to the game you could plan and anticipate your openings and counter with a sweet combo. Adding a quick forward jab (like saber battleX) would be cool for those openings. regarding combos I was thinking about how fighting against stormies, or other gun toting enemies would be. If you are in the middle of several guys it might be cool to have a simple combo like A, D, Swing, which would do a swing to the left and then to the right, you could have some cool senarios where you killed two guys on either side of you. Star Wars is all about those sweet moments that we remember. If you are able to get creative with your attacks, defense, combos, etc. You can really create those memorable moments. That's why Deus Ex is so great. You could really get creative with how you dispatch your enemies. I have other ideas about some of the force powers, and the overall feel of the game, but I'll save that for another post. I really have given a lot of thought to this saber mechanic, and I know that I probably did not describe it well enough, but if anyone wants to question something about it, I will probably be able to explain around it.

[Agen]

I thoguht promod (the 2 meters) was pretty weak, to get it up to full pwoer you had to run straight with heavy stance, you ended up getting the gmae like this but it's not a bad system there.

 

Still best to give the option.

[Prime]

Personally, I think it should stay automatic. Despite all the complaints people had, I thought it worked pretty well in MP and SP. It could use a few tweeks, like not blocking attacks from behind, and so on, but I think auto-blocking was a good decision in JO.

 

I have a few reasons for feeling this way:

 

1. Depending on how it is implemented, will people really be fast enough to hit the block button quick enough to defend against an attack? Especially with lag, I have visions about everyone bitching that even though they are hitting the block button, an opponant's swing will still get through.

 

2. I've seen some mention of a system of holding down a "block" button and not being able to attack. I don't really see the point of this. Currently, when you stand there, you are essentially defending. When you attack you are now leaving yourself open to a counterattack, because you are no longer defending. How does having a block button make this different? Holding down the button means you can't attack, and swinging means you can't defend. What's different from now, besides the pain of having another button to press?

 

3. Judging from the responses, no one can decide what "manual blocking" is and how it should be implemented. The poll is a bit misleading, because even though the numbers for manual blocking are large, they contain many different opinions on what manual blocking should be like. I fear that if there is manual blocking, there will be lots of whining about how blocking isn't done right, and then all sorts of mods implementing different systems will pop up, fragmenting the comminuty.

 

4. Having the option might be okay, but it is just another option that will divide up the community and servers.

 

Just some thoughts

[Deadeye]

Now that I read your reasons I see that a block button might be slightly cumbersome in multiplayer. I was more thinking along the lines of single player when I thought of it.

 

It's not going to be a matter of hitting a block button at the right time, it's going to be a matter of holding it down, or perhaps hitting the button once to turn the "mode" on. -I'm not sure which one would be more effective. You don't want to bog down your fingers when you're trying to block then force push, etc at the same time. As long as block mode is on, you will block every saber strike. When the meter is depleated, you are left open. The point of this system is to force you to act, thereby avoiding altogether that complaint about newbies just button mashing. It makes everyone use a bit of strategy. I tried to think of the simplest, most intuitive method of forcing a fighting game strategy without losing the free form action of an FPS. Oni sorta accomlished this. But fist, and feet are a bit simpler than a potentially one-shot kill weapon. I wish that I could come up with some sort of demo, obviously this is impossible, but I can see it all in my heed I swear! :oP

 

Think of it this way. An enemy AI appears. Just like in JO you run up and start whacking. The enemy blocks and then suddenly he's open. (his definse meter has been drained) Now you swing for the kill, yes, kill. But he rolled out of the way. At the end of that roll he's up and taking a swing at you. Presumably there should be moves where you dodge and then strike in one motion. That way in a situation such as this, the player is forced to consider turing block on when his oppenent dodges. Likewise with the AI. Now you've blocked the parry-strike, and he's still hitting, but before you meter is drained you decide that you might try a quick offensive swing. now the AI enemy is blocking or maybe you got thru since he was on the offensive and not blocking. Or your sabers hit each other resulting in a stance vs stance calculation to determine which person is left open. I guess the idea is that it will be a constant, quick back and forth struggle, like in real sword fighting. Like in sword fighting most of the fight is the clashing of swords to block each other. It's that one moment that the player or AI is left open that you/AI must seize and act upon. I

 

It seems to me that most people are more concerned with damage balancing, and spamming, and other mulitplayer problems. Which is good, since JO has plenty. But I think the system should be re-worked. Afterall this is not supposed to be Q3 with sabers, it's supposed to be Starwars sword fighting. The same rules dont' apply in MP anymore. At least I don't think they do. Maybe that was Raven's problem. I think that combat should be very quick, and not random. The player should be able to get really creative especially when fighting in conjunction with force powers.

 

anyway that's MHO

[Prime]

Originally posted by Deadeye

Now that I read your reasons I see that a block button might be slightly cumbersome in multiplayer. I was more thinking along the lines of single player when I thought of it.

Personnally, I think it would probably be best to try and keep SP and MP saber combat as similar as possible. Having to learn two different styles might be a pain.

 

Originally posted by Deadeye

It seems to me that most people are more concerned with damage balancing, and spamming, and other mulitplayer problems.

There are legitimate problems with MP, but I don't think that manual saber blocking is going to solve them. I think people's biggest problem with blocking is that they feel they aren't rewarded when they attack an opening. Others are just bitching because they got owned

 

Originally posted by Deadeye

anyway that's MHO

Always good to hear people's different views on the subject

[Matariel]

I just want JK saber duels to be as exciting as the ones in the movies, cos thats what this is all about

 

When swordfighting in any style, there are specific offensive and defensive moves. But in jk2 right now, its just all offensive, (except in SP but thats automatic) it just looks silly to watch.

If there were a hold button for 'defensive' mode, it would allow for better blocking and countering and make a much more exciting game. I hate quick deaths in saber fights, since when have you known a jedi duel to last less that 10 seconds? Every duel in the movies lasts at least more than 5 minutes, and the hits are few and far between.

This said, shields should be out now, with sabres doing a lot more damage. Meaning realistic damage (like when u set that cvar in jk2 that chops off legs/arms etc etc), so you must learn to block and counter the moves your opponent makes.

Doesnt Yoda say something along the lines of "A jedi must use the force for defence, never for attack"